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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: 3Deep on August 07, 2014, 12:47:18 PM
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I know most of you have jumped on the bandwagon and gone LED exposures, but for those of us still in the dark ages ;) I would like to know this.
I 've heard people talk about there old exposure taking 6 to 16 minutes some maybe a tad more, so what unit and light type, coating style and emulsion used.
I have an old Atlas 5 Way unit 1000 watt halogen with two black lights, emulsion I use is Prochem HXT from CCI and Image Mate DC 521 dual cure
I coat 1:1 sharp edge with both emulsions
HXT mesh from 110 to 330.... 3 minutes yellow and 2 minutes for white mesh
DC 521 mesh from 110 to 330.... 6 minutes yellow and 4 minutes for white mesh
I know those times seem whoa dude you need to a LED your losing money and wasting time, but really I don't burn that many screens a day and we are just two people here, so whats your time on your old unit and if your in my same boat would an LED unit benefit you, how much coin would you save in a year or lets say 2 years or would you just want to have one because it's the hot thing right now
darryl
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For accuracy you should be using an integrater which measures light units. As the bulb dims exposure will take longer.
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we run a Nuarc 40-1K (mercury vapor bulb i believe??). we use Aquasol HPV, mostly white meshes. ours is typically set at 18.0. this equals about 4-5 minutes i would guess (never really timed it). detailed screens or high meshes we usually get down to around 13.0. our bulb is about 7 months old right now, so everything is leaning towards the slow side. when we pop a new bulb in, times will usually go down to 15.0 for normal screens and 11.0 for detailed ones.
on our unit, bulb age typically determines how fast its working...
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NuArc MSP3140
1200 watt metal halide
Ulano EZ film (50 micron capillary film)
White mesh:
Non-WP film: 55 light units
Waterproof film: 85 light units
Dyed mesh:
Non-WP film: 75 light units
Waterproof film: 120 light units
1 Light Unit = 1 second with a new bulb
It looks like I would stand to save somewhere between 35-100 seconds per screen with LED.
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Olec 5k lamp about 40" from glass.
Aquasol HVP
Yellow mesh: 38LU
White mesh: 22LU
1LU=about 1 second
The light integrator I'm using now auto calibrates/adjusts for bulb age.
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Violux 5000S 5K Metal Halide. Ulano Orange, 81 - 230, 1 over 1, 140 sec. - 40 sec. respectively. Saati HU42, 81 - 355, still 1/1, 400 - 38 respectively. 81 - 150S is white, the rest is yellow (a few orange left over from the old days)
The higher the mesh count, the thinner the coat, less time... (not news to anybody here I don't think)
Steve
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Richmond Solarbeam, 10K Watt Aquasol HVP
All screens coated using glisten method and round edge. If we coated 1/1 with the sharp edge we'd probably burn everything around 10-20 seconds, that's a thin stencil for the higher mesh counts. With a new bulb, a 305 coated 1/1 sharp, 5 second exposure no doubt, maybe faster.
Our bulb needs replaced badly, it's toast right now so our LU's are about 12-14 seconds per and a new bulb is about 4-5 seconds per LU. The LU's count down unevenly for some reason and in the morning our exposures are faster and by late afternoon it counts down slower.
83-140 mesh counts and everything in between: 6 LU's= about 70 seconds
150-205: 4 LU's=50 seconds
225: 3 LU's=30 seconds
280-305: 1-2 LU's=12-20 seconds
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All screens costed glisten method:
My flip-top nuark 3000 watt instant start with Autotype 8000 diazo emulsion does
110 - 46 seconds
156 - 37 seconds
220 - 30 seconds
300 - 22 seconds
With Saati HU42 Diazo emulsion:
110 - 29 seconds
156 - 24 seconds
220 - 19 seconds
300 - 14 seconds
With Aquasol HVP and a 1/2 load of Diazo:
110 - 20 seconds
156 - 19 seconds
220 - 15 seconds
300 - 11 seconds
The bulb in the unit is over 15 years old. I can only imagine what it would do with a new bulb, but for us there is no need for any faster than that. They make a 6K fliptop that I maintain would make one of the very best and fastest units out there.
We also have an Olec 8K and wall frame which is 4-5 times as long for everything.
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Richmond Solarbeam, 10K Watt
All screens coated using glisten method and round edge. If we coated 1/1 with the sharp edge we'd probably burn everything around 10-20 seconds, that's a thin stencil for the higher mesh counts. With a new bulb, a 305 coated 1/1 sharp, 5 second exposure no doubt, maybe faster.
Our bulb needs replaced badly, it's toast right now so our LU's are about 12-14 seconds per and a new bulb is about 4-5 seconds per LU. The LU's count down unevenly for some reason and in the morning our exposures are faster and by late afternoon it counts down slower.
83-140 mesh counts and everything in between: 6 LU's= about 70 seconds
150-205: 4 LU's=50 seconds
225: 3 LU's=30 seconds
280-305: 1-2 LU's=12-20 seconds
Dang Alan, your getting exposure times already comparable to an LED unit, this what I was trying to see if our old units are still worth hanging onto or jump on the bandwagon
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I have the same unit as Alan and haven't been able to find a reason to upgrade to LED unless it was integrated into a CTS unit. In addition to the comparable burn times, it also burns two 23x31's at once, essentially cutting the burn time in half.
On the other side of the coin, it looks like all MH based units are currently plummeting in resale value as LED's take center stage, which is bad news for owners like me, but good for anyone who wants to pick up a used unit which burns close to LED speeds at a fraction of the up-front cost. Granted, there's more electrical needed, high replacement bulb cost, etc, but I'd be interested to see just how much that plays into the overall picture when weighing the two options. My bulb hasn't needed to be replaced in the six years I've been using it, although I only burn 10-20 screens per day so I may not be the best reference on that.
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I was planning on upgrading to LED at the ISS show earlier this year. My thought was to sell my current unit before they took a major hit. I ended up passing because the time savings for me were not that huge and I can already expose quicker than I can wash out. I'm a pretty small shop, so it's really me just wanting the new cool toy. I'm sure I'll eventually upgrade, but for now there are more important places for me to put the money, and this gives more time for the manufacturers to make any small improvements over time.
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I can already expose quicker than I can wash out.
Bingo, tackle the biggest bottlenecks first.
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I can already expose quicker than I can wash out.
Bingo, tackle the biggest bottlenecks first.
If I was going to get one, I would need to invest in a larger washout booth to reap the benefits.
One day...
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All screens costed glisten method:
My flip-top nuark 3000 watt instant start with Autotype 8000 diazo emulsion does
110 - 46 seconds
156 - 37 seconds
220 - 30 seconds
300 - 22 seconds
With Saati HU42 Diazo emulsion:
110 - 29 seconds
156 - 24 seconds
220 - 19 seconds
300 - 14 seconds
With Aquasol HVP and a 1/2 load of Diazo:
110 - 20 seconds
156 - 19 seconds
220 - 15 seconds
300 - 11 seconds
The bulb in the unit is over 15 years old. I can only imagine what it would do with a new bulb, but for us there is no need for any faster than that. They make a 6K fliptop that I maintain would make one of the very best and fastest units out there.
We also have an Olec 8K and wall frame which is 4-5 times as long for everything.
Those are pretty amazing burn times. If a bulb will last that long and you can get those burn times there would never be a reason for you to think about LED. Our bulb goes down quite a bit faster than I'd like but one thing I've noticed after using HVP for a long time (18 months is a LONG time for us to use one product) is it seems to be getting better and better every batch. I know I did exposure tests correctly a year ago and now we can burn HVP about 40-50% faster than my first tests. And the exposure latitude is unbelievable. I can burn a 305 for 10 seconds or 5 minutes and it will still develop just fine. I don't know if the latitude has gotten better over the years because I never really tested it but today it seems to be as good as a dual cure in exposure latitude.
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I think the real enticement here for LED is the lower operating costs that go with it, and the overall lack of heat output from it. But, I see no need to rush into it if you're not burning a lot of screens per day. On the other hand, time marches on, and LED looks to be where we will all be someday, so if not necessarily an early adopter, don't be the last either.
Steve
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I know you love the HVP Alan, and I use it for my thicker low mesh stencils and LOVE it for those, but man o man is the SP1400 holding better detail on my 1k MH unit. I can expose the SP1400 for basically whatever I want and hold every dot on a 55lpi screen, but if I go over even 10 seconds with my HVP i start getting major undercutting and lose 5-10% on the low end, so I have that dialed in for basically every mesh and coating method as a necessity. The SP1400 I basically just do 2/1 sharp on every screen and expose for the same amount and they always come out perfect. Takes about twice as long though...
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Those are pretty amazing burn times. If a bulb will last that long and you can get those burn times there would never be a reason for you to think about LED.
I thought so. No doubt it's because the bulb is so close to the screen. It takes a few hours to retro-fit in a neoprene blanket, but once that's done it's a great unit.
I think the bulb last so long because it's only on during the burn, no shutter.
tough to beat when you can pick up one for the price of a new integrator:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nuarc-Plate-Maker-FT26V-/251584831350?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a939fdf76 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nuarc-Plate-Maker-FT26V-/251584831350?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a939fdf76)
(this unit will only do a 20x24, you need a FT40***** for 23 x 31" screens)
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Exposure latitude is something that gets overlooked when we are talking about fast exposures. Take 20 seconds as an example. If you are able to expose that fast on your unit there is no room for error. 1 second either way is 1/20 = 5% for each unit. Thats a lot of difference in exposure. Does the Starlight allow you to shoot in tenths of a second?
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Exposure latitude is something that gets overlooked when we are talking about fast exposures. Take 20 seconds as an example. If you are able to expose that fast on your unit there is no room for error. 1 second either way is 1/20 = 5% for each unit. Thats a lot of difference in exposure. Does the Starlight allow you to shoot in tenths of a second?
Mind blown... Thank you sir.
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Exposure latitude is something that gets overlooked when we are talking about fast exposures. Take 20 seconds as an example. If you are able to expose that fast on your unit there is no room for error. 1 second either way is 1/20 = 5% for each unit. Thats a lot of difference in exposure. Does the Starlight allow you to shoot in tenths of a second?
This was another thought of mine with going to LED. I burn a screen is 85 seconds (actually 85 LTU). I can burn that same screen in 75 and still wash it out. If my new burn time with an LED becomes 20 seconds, then I would probably only have a 2 second forgiveness time.
All in all it would probably be fine, you just have to make sure you are 100% dialed in with your exposure times. Which we all should be. I guess it leaves a little less room to be lazy.
Good question on weather or not they can shoot in tenths of a second. I have a feeling they do. I've hear some emulsion having a 3 second burn time, so those tenths of a second sound like they could be pretty critical.
All this decreased exposure talk make me question waterproof film (again). I have complained about this for a while. WP film takes 10 seconds longer for me to expose. I can't be the only one who gets longer exposure time when using WP, but it seems like that is just what everyone uses. I can also hold better halftones on NON-WP. I know the big guys are going CTS and avoiding film all together. And I'm way too small of a shop for those 10 seconds to really matter, but I never seem to hear anyone else complain about that issue.
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NuArc 3140
Running an OLD bulb...almost 3 years...yikes!
137 coated 2/2 - 50 LTU
156 coated 2/2 - 40 LTU
175 coated 1/1 - 30 LTU
195 coated 1/1 - 25 LTU
230 coated 1/1 - 20 LTU
305 coated 1/1 - 15 LTU
All yellow mesh.
Sharp edge of coater.
QTX emulsion
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Just thought I'd throw in my observation so far with the LED (Starlight.) I'm still dialing in my times and need to run a lot more tests but when I first burned a screen with 110 white mesh, coated 2 (sharp) / 2 (dull) with some hifi blue I tried 30 seconds. I could tell it was overexposed but I could still wash it out without much trouble. So the next screen I tried was identical but I did 20 seconds. It washed out much easier but still somewhat overexposed. These were waterproof film...just simple art, no halftones. My point is I was able to wash out both screens with no problem but the one had a 50% greater time.
I have a KIWO Expo Check that I'm going to use to do a lot more tests hopefully next weekend. I'm going to try and build a chart with different meshes and using Ulano Orange, Aquasol HVP and the Hifi Blue and see what happens. (I'll post the results in a different thread.)
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I've noticed the same results in regard to over exposure ... on the led units it just doesn't make that big of a difference if you're over...
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One comment about Metal Halide Bulbs: Toward the end of their life they will still make a plastisol screen, but they will not expose a WB/Discharge screen well. They will image, but the emulsion will not have the same water resistancy as when shot with a fresh bulb.
Alan
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I know you love the HVP Alan, and I use it for my thicker low mesh stencils and LOVE it for those, but man o man is the SP1400 holding better detail on my 1k MH unit. I can expose the SP1400 for basically whatever I want and hold every dot on a 55lpi screen, but if I go over even 10 seconds with my HVP i start getting major undercutting and lose 5-10% on the low end, so I have that dialed in for basically every mesh and coating method as a necessity. The SP1400 I basically just do 2/1 sharp on every screen and expose for the same amount and they always come out perfect. Takes about twice as long though...
In my experience, reclaim also takes longer with SP1400. HVP is super quick to shoot and reclaim. But I agree, SP1400 holds better detail. It is still my belief, and it could all be in my head, that HV blue emulsion holds better detail than the pink. In my mind light "glows" around in the pink emulsion partially exposing it whereas the darker blue doesn't allow the light to scatter as much. Abuffington, am I right or crazy?
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the emulsion I found that really held detail on a crappy flo tube unit which I had at one time was Image Mate 521 dual cure using yellow mesh. Guess know one on the forum here us it since it's never mention or talked about except for me.
darryl
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Just got a gallon of the 1400. I should have some screens coated by the end of the day. So what would everyone say as far as burn times up against the HVP? If I can do a 150/48 HVP screen with 4 LU's, where would be a good place to start with the 1400?
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On my crappy flouro unit I expose the 1400 between 5-8 minutes. It is killing me in time and it is tougher to reclaim but I like that its $34 a gallon. If I can find a pure photopolymer that has wide exposure lattitude I would be happy. Sometimes I will forget a screen is in the unit and overexpose which with the 1400 really makes no difference. I know with a pure photo polymer if I forget it I will be starting over. I guess I need to start using the timer lol!
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Just got a gallon of the 1400. I should have some screens coated by the end of the day. So what would everyone say as far as burn times up against the HVP? If I can do a 150/48 HVP screen with 4 LU's, where would be a good place to start with the 1400?
I'd probably start with 80LU with an exposure calculator. If we're taking bets, my guess is 38.2354LU!
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I can't be the only one that has great exposure latitude with the HVP. Jameson, your issues with latitude on the HVP were they really bad or just barely noticeable? Maybe the light source plays a much larger role in latitude than I think and just because I can do a 305 for 6 seconds or 6 minutes doesn't mean everyone can.