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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: Prosperi-Tees on August 16, 2014, 06:58:45 PM
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Just wondering what advantages do AC heads have? I know a smooth consistent stroke with even pressure. Anything else? Is there an advantage to the basic screen printer doing your simple flat graphics? I am just punching numbers to figure if the higher cost of AC heads are really worth it or not for the basic screen printer. I know it offers you exacting control over the pressure etc, but doesn't air heads have pressure regulators? Maybe not as exact but still does the trick for the basic printer, no?
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Air in a cylinder is squishy, so air cylinders can take quite a bit of pressure to get moving, then start with a jerk, then slow down. Not the best for screenprinting.
That said most decent manufacturers are using large enough cylinders to overcome most of the drawbacks.
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Getting an auto will afford you the opportunity to expand your offerings and go beyond being a basic printer so consider that as well..
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Getting an auto will afford you the opportunity to expand your offerings and go beyond being a basic printer so consider that as well..
That is a very good point! Something we found out the hard way.
"Can" you print good with air heads? Hell yes, people do it all the time. They are just very dialed into the workings of their press very well. You are in CA, which tells me you don't even know how to spell COLD::) Up here in the winter, printing whites, ath. gold, ect. in the mornings with air heads sucks. Fluctuation of air pressure affects the speed or sometimes "hesitation" of a print head. Going from printing smaller detail at say the bottom of a image then hitting a LARGE open print area will Mrs with the speed also.
While those are just a few small things, have you EVER heard someone that has had air heads and switched AC heads then say "If I got another press, air heads would be fine." NO you haven't!
I know that's not a lot if exact details, but you already outlined some of the best advantages....
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beg, borrow, or steal the extra money for AC heads, thank me later.
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That is one reason the diamondback is off my list.
You know where I'm possibly headed and that's AC heads!
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Same here... next press is ac heads without a doubt. Of course Rich is probably going to.make sure that we have a sportsman on order in the near future.
Pneumatic heads are very tempermental... and change on a whim depending on print pressure, temperature, etc.
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TCT pretty much said I was going to say. Particularly white ink on a cold day.
If you were printing with a manual, I'd say get an auto.
If you are printing on an auto now, then I say get an auto with AC/servo.
It's all about upgrading.
Take your time, and as a small shop if you can get an 8/10 ac/servo press, you'll probably never need to upgrade. And if you ever do need to, that will be a very good thing.
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We had air heads on our old challenger.....just more air cylinders & O-rings to replace. A/C heads for 10 years now & I would never go back.
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What about les air to run the press. A small thing, but when we got our first AC press, it saved us the cost of adding another compressor
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We have AC heads on our 10 color and air on our 6 color. Much prefer the AC heads.
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Wait the extra months it takes to save the difference for AC heads. The all air rhino we had printed a good bit better than the v squeegee freedom we upgraded from. Was super excited about it and wondered if we made a mistake purchasing a new AC/Servo press. That worry was put to rest once we printed with our AC heads.
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They are more consistent, less temp or ink sensitive.
Less compressor power, less wear parts.
Don't buy new any other way.
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I know this will seem not possible right now to you while your doing all this math and searching and you feel like you can't afford it right now. But I promise you if you skip AC heads and even a couple more print heads right now you will regret that to no end in a couple of years. Which is fine if you don't mind doing it twice like we did, which cost us more money. 2 Shipping deals, 2 set ups, 2 electrical deals and so on. That stuff adds up.
In our example much like you we were trying to go cheap as possible. Almost bought a 6/8 diamondback. We stretched a bit and got a 8/10 Sportsman, which we out grew in 1 year. Before buying I always worried how much it cost and how id pay for it. Facts are not one time since doing either of our autos has paying for it been a actual issue. My point is buy the best auto with the best functions with the most heads you can afford from the company you trust most. The rest will be a lot easier than you perceive it to be right now. In fact if you have money down your doing more than I did on our first auto. Don't buy a auto that suits you today, buy one that will carry you awhile.
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Think about this.... The more air you require, the bigger compressor and chiller you will need. They ain't cheap. I have a servo indexer and AC heads. I am running it on a run of the mill 60 Gallon Kobalt compressor and a small chiller for 9 years. Not one problem....
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What is run by air on a servo/ac press? Lift/lower, frame locks and sq/fld locks?
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Choppers are run by air too
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Depending on press, there may be no lift and lower
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For presses with tables that do lift they are usually air, though there are some with servo lift.
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"Some"? You sure there is more than one? :p
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"Some"? You sure there is more than one? :p
2M has one as does Anatol (at least on the Vindicator not sure if on other presses too). Not sure if Rick is offering the RPM with the servo lift but I know Mariusz would put it on one if Rick asked.
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"Some"? You sure there is more than one? :p
I was under the impression there were at least 2... (RPM, Anatol)... Maybe Playtex??
Edit... ScreenPrinter123 beat me to it :D
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Sorry but all I hear right now is:
AREEEEDUBYABEEE saying: "I want you to experience servo lift".
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Sorry, I didn't mean offered, I meant in production.
Was also meant as a small jab at Michael and Brian. ;)
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are the newer RPMs servo? Mine isn't. It's got a big ol' lift cylinder.
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So is the chopper downward pressure still controlled by air? And the stroke is electric? I think I am confusing myself.
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That's correct Gerry. Up and down is air but the back and forth is via motor.
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Word on the street is the brand MX was a complete disaster. Not from the lift yet but other index issues. Fat Bobby thing.
Brand PX the big ones have a servo lift that works quite well.
Yes Anatol has the Vindicator and he Volt.
I wonder if they make servo mattress springs for better support?
Sorry for the two brand X but figure you can figure which is which.
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Word on the street is the brand MX was a complete disaster. Not from the lift yet but other index issues. Fat Bobby thing.
Brand PX the big ones have a servo lift that works quite well.
Yes Anatol has the Vindicator and he Volt.
I wonder if they make servo mattress springs for better support?
Sorry for the two brand X but figure you can figure which is which.
Shocker lol.
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Just passed 200k prints on MX with no problems..I would even call Mariusz up and buy again if we became a two press shop. It is a great press believe it or not. Now the salesman?...the fact that he is no longer selling them should be all you need to know. That is about all I will say without opening up a can of worms that would only be valuable for popcorn eating and bug eyed emoticons (something that TSB smartly tries to avoid--something I appreciate).
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And we thank you... for both parts of that. ;)
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Just passed 200k prints on MX with no problems..I would even call Mariusz up and buy again if we became a two press shop. It is a great press believe it or not. Now the salesman?...the fact that he is no longer selling them should be all you need to know. That is about all I will say without opening up a can of worms that would only be valuable for popcorn eating and bug eyed emoticons (something that TSB smartly tries to avoid--something I appreciate).
Is there any differences between your press and the rpm, aside from color?
(please keep this about the press and not any other people involved)
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It has the servo lift with the "bmw" spring to assist.
I think there are a few other changes vs Alan's RPM but I'm not sure about compared to current RPM's.
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The main differences:
- servo lift
- individual head off contact
- flag system for adjusting stroke length as opposed to digital
- 24" stroke length
Mariusz has said he would swap out particular features as requested but this is something that would have to be discussed with Rick of RPM or Mariusz.
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My understanding is there might be another seller of these machines in the future...somebody I trust a lot more.
I love working with Mariusz. He knows his stuff. I really feel like the RPM could be a bigger contender in the market with a better network of service and parts.
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My understanding is there might be another seller of these machines in the future...somebody I trust a lot more.
I love working with Mariusz. He knows his stuff. I really feel like the RPM could be a bigger contender in the market with a better network of service and parts.
I agree. We have had great luck getting hold of Mariusz and have been very satisfied with our decision. I think it is a real contender for bast bang for the buck. You have to step up to a screen lift press (challenger, MHM, etc.) to find a press that I would ever consider switching too, but at the price I don't see it ever making sense for the output of our shop.
Sorry Gerry I did not intend to hijack your thread, I think we should get back to the question at hand.
Again I would advise going with AC heads even if you are unsure about it. Something I have not seen mentioned is that the digital readout on the all air Rhino would drop around 5-6 psi when the chopper engaged the squeegee so the beginning of the stroke had less pressure than the end of the stroke once the pressure caught back up. This is not an issue with our current AC heads so we are able to print with less pressure now. It also seems that the point where choppers will not work due to too low pressure is a lower number on the AC heads than the all air machine. Again I am not sure if this is generally the case or is something particular to the machines we have used.
This about exhausts all that I have to offer on this particular issue.
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Here is something I didn't like seeing, don't know if it's really anything to worry about.
http://youtu.be/87MAuIo58O0?t=3m19s (http://youtu.be/87MAuIo58O0?t=3m19s)
That pressure gauge drops pretty hard. This is air heads.
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very likely that's related to the air hose feeding the press, or there's not being 'enough' cfm being provided / pressure on the input side of the regulator isn't high enough.
I have 1/2" air lines from the compressor to the chiller and then from the chiller to the press. I added a 10gal 'recovery'/storage tank to the press after the regulator and oiler. I see no 'drop' in air pressure any more.
I think that they recommend minimum of 3/4" air lines typically, but the total length of air hose from compressor to chiller to press is only 12'.
One more reason for seeing that big air pressure drop, can be the air reservoir being filled with water...
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Sad thing is that is manufacture's video.
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Probably installed air to spec or beyond--just has a bunch of crap in the air filter. ;)
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this is why you want AC heads.. so they don't stall!
http://youtu.be/5uUTDJnN95Q (http://youtu.be/5uUTDJnN95Q)
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On a AC/Servo press air is typically used for:
- Screen clamps
-Squeegee clamps
-Table or screen/head lifting
-Squeegee and flood bar actuation
-Squeegee and flood bar downward pressure
-Indexing "lock"(my press at least)
I know 99% of that was already covered, I'm just a visual person so that helped me;D
My understanding is there might be another seller of these machines in the future...somebody I trust a lot more.
Are you talking about Randy from The OTS? I heard about that a few years ago but kind of thought that was dead since nothing came off it.
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Hmmm all this time I thought the downward pressure was electric cause I thought you could adjust that pressure to exact pressures and it not fluctuate. Does the air in the choppers fluctuate and cause any issues?
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In my limited experience the air will fluctuate but it should be so minimal that it should not be much if any concern
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Maybe because the limited volume/pressure in them.
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Hmmm all this time I thought the downward pressure was electric cause I thought you could adjust that pressure to exact pressures and it not fluctuate. Does the air in the choppers fluctuate and cause any issues?
You can adjust to exact pressures, I think the most common way is with a pressure regulator/gauge. I can take a pic of how both of mine adjust tomorrow when I get in if that helps you (visual again). The RPM had that super sexy digital readout for it though! ;D
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I get it now. I just watched the RPM videos again and now I get it. Actually watched the video years ago and I guess at that time I couldn't put two and two together. The difference is a dial indicator versus the digital and I thought the digital meant the pressures were electrically controlled somehow.
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I rigged a air regulator on my javi chopper head... I can't tell you how much of a difference it made.. no longer was I guessing with the stroke length adjustments on the top of the cylinders...
now we have the stroke length set WAY long, and the air pressure regulates how hard the squeegee pushes... amazing how much better the prints are when you're printing with minimal pressure (we're around 30-35 psi, depending on what ink we're using)
While you could use electric servos on the print choppers, maybe even with a force feed-back loop of some sort, the cost to do that vs. pneumatic cylinders and a air solenoid would just not be worth it. Trying to use an electric solenoid or actuator for the chopper would put you back in the same boat as having no air regulators on the chopper at all.
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WOW! This is the best thread and advertising for the VOLT! Imagine what you can do with a Industrial All Electric Press !
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WOW! This is the best thread and advertising for the VOLT! Imagine what you can do with a Industrial All Electric Press !
How are you dealing with print pressure on the Volt?
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Wondering the same thing about pressures. Are pressures adjustable per head? That would seem pretty important.
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Is it done like the Brown?
I'm certainly not impressed with their method and I've watched that machine print probably more than anyone else that doesn't own one (my buddy owns one).
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Think about this.... The more air you require, the bigger compressor and chiller you will need. They ain't cheap. I have a servo indexer and AC heads. I am running it on a run of the mill 60 Gallon Kobalt compressor and a small chiller for 9 years. Not one problem....
With the Volt you don't need a air compressor and chiller
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WOW! This is the best thread and advertising for the VOLT! Imagine what you can do with a Industrial All Electric Press !
How are you dealing with print pressure on the Volt?
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manual adjustments, easy as 1,2,3
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Can you have different pressures for each head?
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I think we were looking for more description than "1,2,3"
I don't even have an auto (yet) and I can tell you that you are able to adjust PSI's on the choppers to deliver more or less pressure... AND you have height adjustments as well.
Boom, a complete auto idiot just gave 10x (probably more) info than you did on how pneumatic chopper cylinders work on a press than you did on how the electric ones work.
Posting good information is as easy as 1,2,3 as well.
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in my new experience:
adjusting the air pressure going to the choppers works 100x better than the height control knobs... I don't even use my height knobs anymore (they're set that if you had a ton of pressure on the head, you'd just bend the squeegee over).
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manual adjustments, easy as 1,2,3
Elaborate.
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manual adjustments, easy as 1,2,3
Elaborate.
I'm not sure if it's easily feasible, but these are the type of things a quick cell phone video would be awesome!
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manual adjustments, easy as 1,2,3
Elaborate.
I'm not sure if it's easily feasible, but these are the type of things a quick cell phone video would be awesome!
You must have missed the part where he said "easy as 1,2,3" so actually it should be that easy.
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in my new experience:
adjusting the air pressure going to the choppers works 100x better than the height control knobs... I don't even use my height knobs anymore (they're set that if you had a ton of pressure on the head, you'd just bend the squeegee over).
We did the same thing, dialed the chopper limiters up all the way so they don't even come into play and just dial in air pressure on each head.
Way better i.m.o. we've never looked back.
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Same here choppers up pressure down. And then there are 4 color process jobs where 5psi could mean the difference between a nice red hue and blood red mess. Does the Volt have the ability to control the squeegee pressure that fine or is it in increments?
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Same here choppers up pressure down. And then there are 4 color process jobs where 5psi could mean the difference between a nice red hue and blood red mess. Does the Volt have the ability to control the squeegee pressure that fine or is it in increments?
My guess is no.
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Same here choppers up pressure down. And then there are 4 color process jobs where 5psi could mean the difference between a nice red hue and blood red mess. Does the Volt have the ability to control the squeegee pressure that fine or is it in increments?
My guess is no.
Now Brandt, that clearly isn't a fair assessment. Let's let the man answer, I am honestly curious.
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Same here choppers up pressure down. And then there are 4 color process jobs where 5psi could mean the difference between a nice red hue and blood red mess. Does the Volt have the ability to control the squeegee pressure that fine or is it in increments?
My guess is no.
Now Brandt, that clearly isn't a fair assessment. Let's let the man answer, I am honestly curious.
I am curious too. But I figure a guess is OK to make.
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How are you dealing with print pressure on the Volt?
Can you have different pressures for each head?
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