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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: Extreme Screen Prints on August 25, 2014, 06:09:08 PM
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We have a MHM4000 auto reg, the new Xtype and a small Etype. I can say that the only MHM machine that doesn't have drastic pallet deflection is the 4000. Now we all know how terrible pallet deflection is for printing high end process work or waterbase and discharge. I was a MHM loyalist but after looking at an sroque and how there built I would go Sroque unless your going with a 4000. The arms are huge on the Sroque and extend further out. That is the only negative on mhm presses but it is a huge negative that they need to do something about. Now the benefit of the MHM presses is rarely having to take your floods and squeeges out of press. Pop the head up and scrape the ink off and give it a quick wipe and your on to the next color, that alone lets my guys setup a few more jobs per day. I do not post here very often but I would hate to see someone not give Sroque a try just because everyone with MHMs says there comparable to a BMW in car terminology.
I would also like to add, no matter how good you register on the FPU you still have to micro 50% of the heads, if you say you don't then your not printing detailed stuff or you have a huge choke.
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I would also like to add, no matter how good you register on the FPU you still have to micro 50% of the heads, if you say you don't then your not printing detailed stuff or you have a huge choke.
???
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We have a MHM4000 auto reg, the new Xtype and a small Etype. I can say that the only MHM machine that doesn't have drastic pallet deflection is the 4000. Now we all know how terrible pallet deflection is for printing high end process work or waterbase and discharge. I was a MHM loyalist but after looking at an sroque and how there built I would go Sroque unless your going with a 4000. The arms are huge on the Sroque and extend further out. That is the only negative on mhm presses but it is a huge negative that they need to do something about. Now the benefit of the MHM presses is rarely having to take your floods and squeeges out of press. Pop the head up and scrape the ink off and give it a quick wipe and your on to the next color, that alone lets my guys setup a few more jobs per day. I do not post here very often but I would hate to see someone not give Sroque a try just because everyone with MHMs says there comparable to a BMW in car terminology.
I would also like to add, no matter how good you register on the FPU you still have to micro 50% of the heads, if you say you don't then your not printing detailed stuff or you have a huge choke.
Extreme Screen Prints,
Do you have issues with deflection on your presses? I have an etype and I have not seen anything. (that effect registration) I do use the stock MHM pallets. I know some guys use Action pallets and they are thinner and do deflect. They use half inch honeycomb, stock pallets are close to 5/8th I think. I have a local guy that has some of them and has to use a board under the ends of them so it supports the end of the pallets. That's more of a Action Engineering problem then a MHM one. I never print with more than 4 bars of pressure (60#s). I think most of the time I am in the 1.5 to 3 range. You print a ton more than me having 3 autos. I am just curious what issues you have.
I agree with your advice the Srouge is a good press. I have only seen the Ryonet one and the display features or lack of turned me off. I think that was the cheaper press so the one above it may have more controller features.
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We have a MHM4000 auto reg, the new Xtype and a small Etype. I can say that the only MHM machine that doesn't have drastic pallet deflection is the 4000. Now we all know how terrible pallet deflection is for printing high end process work or waterbase and discharge. I was a MHM loyalist but after looking at an sroque and how there built I would go Sroque unless your going with a 4000. The arms are huge on the Sroque and extend further out. That is the only negative on mhm presses but it is a huge negative that they need to do something about. Now the benefit of the MHM presses is rarely having to take your floods and squeeges out of press. Pop the head up and scrape the ink off and give it a quick wipe and your on to the next color, that alone lets my guys setup a few more jobs per day. I do not post here very often but I would hate to see someone not give Sroque a try just because everyone with MHMs says there comparable to a BMW in car terminology.
I would also like to add, no matter how good you register on the FPU you still have to micro 50% of the heads, if you say you don't then your not printing detailed stuff or you have a huge choke.
try using a 10X magnifying glass to place the films. It just about eliminates the need for registering (8 out of 10 are right on and don't need to be touched). Our standard stroke is 1pt for the spots and everything falls within that jsut fine. On the sim process jobs that are registered within few thousands of an inch, we need to do a little bit more, but not much. . .
what issues are you seeing with deflection? We hold the registration to under 5/1000th and have not had any problems with it. What should I be looking for?
pierre
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We have a MHM4000 auto reg, the new Xtype and a small Etype. I can say that the only MHM machine that doesn't have drastic pallet deflection is the 4000. Now we all know how terrible pallet deflection is for printing high end process work or waterbase and discharge. I was a MHM loyalist but after looking at an sroque and how there built I would go Sroque unless your going with a 4000. The arms are huge on the Sroque and extend further out. That is the only negative on mhm presses but it is a huge negative that they need to do something about. Now the benefit of the MHM presses is rarely having to take your floods and squeeges out of press. Pop the head up and scrape the ink off and give it a quick wipe and your on to the next color, that alone lets my guys setup a few more jobs per day. I do not post here very often but I would hate to see someone not give Sroque a try just because everyone with MHMs says there comparable to a BMW in car terminology.
I would also like to add, no matter how good you register on the FPU you still have to micro 50% of the heads, if you say you don't then your not printing detailed stuff or you have a huge choke.
try using a 10X magnifying glass to place the films. It just about eliminates the need for registering (8 out of 10 are right on and don't need to be touched). Our standard stroke is 1pt for the spots and everything falls within that jsut fine. On the sim process jobs that are registered within few thousands of an inch, we need to do a little bit more, but not much. . .
what issues are you seeing with deflection? We hold the registration to under 5/1000th and have not had any problems with it. What should I be looking for?
Pierre
I have not seen the deflection affect reg. just causes problems with coverage and having to double stroke on our discharge underbase. We run everything discharge under with plastisol on top and our underbase head has to be at 5 bar. We are running 180-230 mesh 32nm and have to double hit 50% of the time mainly because of deflection. The print will clear at the bottom of the stroke but not the top. I here you guys talk about points, who sends vector art these days, 99% of the time we are working with crazy bitmap files created in photoshop. I think 1 point = 3 pixels at 300 dpi if i'm not mistaken. If we choke 3 pixels we either lose alot of detail or you can see the color falling off and to me it doesn't look very good.
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That's the first I've heard of big pallet deflection on an MHM. I hate to see pallet deflection and even print head deflection on an auto and that is a huge weakness if that is common for all non-4000 MHM's. Other MHM owners have chimed in and it doesn't seem to be an issue for them whether or not there is a lot of deflection. You MHM guys, would you describe the deflection as worse than other presses that you've seen? I know it's probably not something you look for when your looking at another auto at a show or another shop visit but I'd be interested to hear how it compares if you have any experience or have seen another brand of auto.
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This is a question for Pierre and Extreme which may be linked and may be a good/bad side effect.
Are all MHM pallets honeycomb with no rubber tops on them?
Pierre, do you think not having rubber tops helps you maintain finer detail for less dot gain for those super nice prints? Also, does NOT having rubber top pallets hinder ink penetration and laydown for maximum coverage like in Extreme's example of discharge having to print with a metric ton of pressure?
I know that when I switch to my sleeve/pocket pallets from Action, they are purposely bare aluminum for the ease of pocket printing, but I do notice less opacity over the regular rubber top pallets.
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We have a MHM4000 auto reg, the new Xtype and a small Etype. I can say that the only MHM machine that doesn't have drastic pallet deflection is the 4000. Now we all know how terrible pallet deflection is for printing high end process work or waterbase and discharge. I was a MHM loyalist but after looking at an sroque and how there built I would go Sroque unless your going with a 4000. The arms are huge on the Sroque and extend further out. That is the only negative on mhm presses but it is a huge negative that they need to do something about. Now the benefit of the MHM presses is rarely having to take your floods and squeeges out of press. Pop the head up and scrape the ink off and give it a quick wipe and your on to the next color, that alone lets my guys setup a few more jobs per day. I do not post here very often but I would hate to see someone not give Sroque a try just because everyone with MHMs says there comparable to a BMW in car terminology.
I would also like to add, no matter how good you register on the FPU you still have to micro 50% of the heads, if you say you don't then your not printing detailed stuff or you have a huge choke.
try using a 10X magnifying glass to place the films. It just about eliminates the need for registering (8 out of 10 are right on and don't need to be touched). Our standard stroke is 1pt for the spots and everything falls within that jsut fine. On the sim process jobs that are registered within few thousands of an inch, we need to do a little bit more, but not much. . .
what issues are you seeing with deflection? We hold the registration to under 5/1000th and have not had any problems with it. What should I be looking for?
Pierre
I have not seen the deflection affect reg. just causes problems with coverage and having to double stroke on our discharge underbase. We run everything discharge under with plastisol on top and our underbase head has to be at 5 bar. We are running 180-230 mesh 32nm and have to double hit 50% of the time mainly because of deflection. The print will clear at the bottom of the stroke but not the top. I here you guys talk about points, who sends vector art these days, 99% of the time we are working with crazy bitmap files created in photoshop. I think 1 point = 3 pixels at 300 dpi if i'm not mistaken. If we choke 3 pixels we either lose alot of detail or you can see the color falling off and to me it doesn't look very good.
yes, there is a little bit of deflection, but it is very, very minor and I have not seen it impact anything so far. 'few thoughts here:
-we had the same problem with top not clearing when printing too close to the seam. It is the neck seam bulk that's holding the screen away from the shirt and thus making you stroke twice and push harder (5bar is a lot). Move the print away from the seams, load with the seam off the platen or place foam on the pallets when you have to stay close.
-as far as art, we get almost everything in vector or convert it ourselves, it prints cleaner.
-Instead of chocking, trap! Since only the ink that was underbased is visible, trapping is the way to go. Your ubase stays the same and thus you don't lose any detail. BTW 2pts at 300dpi is the same as 1pt stroke in illustrator (stroke is centered so it is really only half a point. both are 6/1000th of an inch. you will not see that without a magnifying glass if trapped).
-look into a double squeegee from Action, that might solve your problem.
-try S or LX mesh. Bigger openings will clear better.
I'll look at what's going on next time we print DC, but any issues there (for us) are not deflection related.
pierre
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This is a question for Pierre and Extreme which may be linked and may be a good/bad side effect.
Are all MHM pallets honeycomb with no rubber tops on them?
Pierre, do you think not having rubber tops helps you maintain finer detail for less dot gain for those super nice prints? Also, does NOT having rubber top pallets hinder ink penetration and laydown for maximum coverage like in Extreme's example of discharge having to print with a metric ton of pressure?
I know that when I switch to my sleeve/pocket pallets from Action, they are purposely bare aluminum for the ease of pocket printing, but I do notice less opacity over the regular rubber top pallets.
no rubber on MHM platens. You could put it on aftermarket, but the servos are not designed for the extra weight so I would not.
There is no question that printing on bare metal is significantly less forgiving. When starting I was tempted to buy the rubber so many times. And yes, it will deposit less ink from what I can tell. Biggest advantage is less heat retention. We print without a cool down station all the time with very little slowdown. I don't think it has any visible impact on the print quality.
pierre
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Gotcha. If I ran my choppers up to 75psi I'm pretty sure my squeegee would buckle into a rainbow and I'd be laying down ink with the flat part of the SIDE of the squeegee lol.
It'd be nice to see the differences on the interfaces between the C3 and the G3 presses. Heck I haven't even seen a video on the Sroque interface, anyone have one of those? Just for fun comparing and to attempt to stay on topic!
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I spoke with Dan at Forward printing several months back and he told me that was a big issue for them on their E type machine. The two little center pins that hold the pallets down seem to be the culprit. He said when ever they did images larger than 14 or so inches wide, they would experience deflection and a side to side rocking of their pallets. The machines they use now he said have zero head, and zero pallet deflection due to their design.
The deflection we experience on our press is the heads actually flexing upwards during a heavy print stroke at the front, and the pallets themselves flexing downward at the front, causing the need for more pressure at the top of the design, but then what sucks is getting mid way on a bigger design, the flexing starts to relax and then you see your squeegee laying down more because of the increased pressure that was needed at the top of the design. We've learned how to sort of counter that with some front of pallet adjustments ect, but it is a major pain in the arse and I get really tired of having to explain why things go a certain way. I've tried every remedy ever presented, but it's just what it is. I really can't wait to add a higher end machine, and I want to be CERTAIN, that some of these frustrating issues are not existing on it. My suggestion to the original poster. This and other forums are great to get lots of info and testimonies, but now use this forum to network with shop owners, and or production managers at different facilities running different gear, and try to see if they will let you come hang out during full on production. This way you not only look at the gear, but you see it running in a real to life setting. See how they set up break down. See how they handle an on press issue, and how different gear compares. Here their personal testimonies as they are in the hustle of getting jobs done and out. See it all first hand. I love the tech and and a gear head, but I really am someone who wants to not only get info, a good look at a trade show or a manu's show room. I want to see and hear from the operators. What happens if a screen tears, if the separator ordered screens in a bad configuration and the already inked set up needs to be reconfigured and up and running to meet the end of the day deadline ect. How long the stuff runs weekly. The little and big issues, if there are any. How many service calls have been needed, if any, how easy was the issue addressed, fixed ect, if there were any needed. You are looking at a big ticket item, or set of items as we are, so you, as I know I, want to be sure the proper decision for "your shop", is being made. I'm not the only one in my shop making decisions, as my wife is my business partner, and she has really stepped up to setting up jobs, running jobs, her and her girls doing pallet change overs, what makes her life easier, surely makes the business run better, but also makes my life better. At the end of the day, we all want the best print at the best pace so that we can maximize our efforts and be successful at what we do. Just my 2cents. Glad that link to the G3 went up! I've been talking about it for a few months and just imaging what it would look like. I was told it's basically the C3 55 series, with a different control panel, and a few minor mods. So at that, it's a beast of a press. I've seen the C3 55 and C3D 55's up close and personally and in action and have a feeling there is a zero deflection on them, which would mean, if the print arms and pallet arms are the same on the G3, that's a non issue. I want to get up close and personal with one for sure and see what it's really all about. Which brings me to a closing. Before you pull your trigger, take a couple days and go directly to the manufacture. For sure M&R has not only where you can take a tour, which would be cool, but an actual real setting with the gear so that you can get all over it yourself and that is one thing we are trying to put together right now. Being right there will give a perfect final arena to have all questions answered that maybe in some cases where we are fighting something in our process, we may just be doing it wrong from lack of training, and that's what they are set up for there. Not sure if other's offer it, but they openly extend the invite to any M&R owner or prospecting owner.
At any rate, the best of luck to ya man, I hope what ever you do, is the best for your shop and you!!
Mike
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Not challenging Dan's comments but... The squeegee is held by a floating center pin similar top the Javilin so there is no way you can have more treasure on one side of the pallet than the other. In fact having a cylinders with height adjuster( common set up on most machines) is far more likely to have unbalanced squeegee pressure side to side.
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Gotcha. If I ran my choppers up to 75psi I'm pretty sure my squeegee would buckle into a rainbow and I'd be laying down ink with the flat part of the SIDE of the squeegee lol.
It'd be nice to see the differences on the interfaces between the C3 and the G3 presses. Heck I haven't even seen a video on the Sroque interface, anyone have one of those? Just for fun comparing and to attempt to stay on topic!
we had a chance to see the interface and it is better than what they have now, easier to read and operate.
I do think though, they are still behind the few of the others and especially the MHM when it comes to the actual user interface. It is currently a number one reason I would not switch to M&R as silly as it seems.
There is a plus though, a significant one at that. M&R has some functions that are not available on other presses and the upcoming cloud/monitoring system is very impressive (think sitting at lunch and finding out on your phone how the press is doing, that includes the number of jobs, the set up times and production!).
pierre
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no rubber on MHM platens. You could put it on aftermarket, but the servos are not designed for the extra weight so I would not.
pierre
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I have Rubber tops and love them.. bet the weight of one piece of rubber is not much more that the weight of heavyweight hoody, I doubt this will effect the machine.. on my S Type I can slow down the index speed as well so there is bit less inertia with the movement.
JMO
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I spoke with Dan at Forward printing several months back and he told me that was a big issue for them on their E type machine. The two little center pins that hold the pallets down seem to be the culprit. He said when ever they did images larger than 14 or so inches wide, they would experience deflection and a side to side rocking of their pallets. The machines they use now he said have zero head, and zero pallet deflection due to their design.
Mike
huh, interesting. I used to say noo waay to things like this, but now I go and check. Again, it is not something I've seen before.
I can also see that if the platens are not properly leveled there would be play on the side of the rails and very high pressure could rock the platen. My first reaction is, the issue is with the operation rather than design. This is not to say that the design is without faults as no press is, but it is my feeling that MHM is still the press to beat.
pierre
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no rubber on MHM platens. You could put it on aftermarket, but the servos are not designed for the extra weight so I would not.
pierre
I have Rubber tops and love them.. bet the weight of one piece of rubber is not much more that the weight of heavyweight hoody, I doubt this will effect the machine.. on my S Type I can slow down the index speed as well so there is bit less inertia with the movement.
JMO
did you order it like that?
pierre
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also, our doors are always open. Anybody wanting to see an E-type is more than welcome!
pierre
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We added rubber to our etype 5 year ago, no problems so far. Thinking about adding it to all machines. Detail holds just as good just allows you to use less pressure. Forward printing had the same deflection issues I have noticed. It doesn't affect registration nor does it deflect when printing with plastisol but discharge and waterbase it does deflect. S mesh is cool and all but we stretch in house and use dynamesh and for the cost You can't beat it. We pop 10 screens a week I can't imagine how many LX mesh screens we would pop. Shooting 150 screens a day is just to many to have specialty mesh.
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no rubber on MHM platens. You could put it on aftermarket, but the servos are not designed for the extra weight so I would not.
pierre
I have Rubber tops and love them.. bet the weight of one piece of rubber is not much more that the weight of heavyweight hoody, I doubt this will effect the machine.. on my S Type I can slow down the index speed as well so there is bit less inertia with the movement.
JMO
did you order it like that?
pierre
No .. Action rubber top .. around $750 for 12 adult pallets but I covered the entire pallet.. really makes a difference with heat build up. If you order make certain they inspect for wrinkles on the sticky laminated layer.. wrinkles No Bueno!
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Not challenging Dan's comments but... The squeegee is held by a floating center pin similar top the Javilin so there is no way you can have more treasure on one side of the pallet than the other. In fact having a cylinders with height adjuster( common set up on most machines) is far more likely to have unbalanced squeegee pressure side to side.
We've never had issues with side to side deflection. Front to back, sure, but then so does every machine without cast arms.
Robert, does your S-Type have the little screw adjusters where the squeegees/floods are held? One of my machines does,
and they cause more trouble then they fix. Just float 'em.
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And I could be wrong, but I think the E-Types have integral side to side height adjustment, not unlike an M&R machine.
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also, our doors are always open. Anybody wanting to see an E-type is more than welcome!
pierre
same out here.
W have a 16 color 4000 and a 14 color Xtreme for show and tell.
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Not challenging Dan's comments but... The squeegee is held by a floating center pin similar top the Javilin so there is no way you can have more treasure on one side of the pallet than the other. In fact having a cylinders with height adjuster( common set up on most machines) is far more likely to have unbalanced squeegee pressure side to side.
We've never had issues with side to side deflection. Front to back, sure, but then so does every machine without cast arms.
Robert, does your S-Type have the little screw adjusters where the squeegees/floods are held? One of my machines does,
and they cause more trouble then they fix. Just float 'em.
Yes on the screw limiters.. but mine float
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And I could be wrong, but I think the E-Types have integral side to side height adjustment, not unlike an M&R machine.
Spot on Sean... I forgot the print head does have choppers on both sides of squeegee... one more reason to go Stype head.. the more we run this press the more I appreciate what a great machine it is .
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And I could be wrong, but I think the E-Types have integral side to side height adjustment, not unlike an M&R machine.
Spot on Sean... I forgot the print head does have choppers on both sides of squeegee... one more reason to go Stype head.. the more we run this press the more I appreciate what a great machine it is .
I would buy a used E-type, but if buying new, S-Type would be the only option.
pierre
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Honestly I like the Etypes height adjustments vs the Stype or 4000. Mainly because you have more adjustment height and they seem to be built stronger. I have had multiple cylinders go out on my Xtype and 4000 but not one on my etype 5 years later. We beat that press up printing 20x24 inch prints and it just keeps up.
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Honestly I like the Etypes height adjustments vs the Stype or 4000. Mainly because you have more adjustment height and they seem to be built stronger. I have had multiple cylinders go out on my Xtype and 4000 but not one on my etype 5 years later. We beat that press up printing 20x24 inch prints and it just keeps up.
Extreme,
I just realized who you are. You do some videos on Youtube. You have 2 business names on there I think. You have a 6 color etype and print with really large pallets. You do good work. Nice to see you here.
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Honestly I like the Etypes height adjustments vs the Stype or 4000. Mainly because you have more adjustment height and they seem to be built stronger. I have had multiple cylinders go out on my Xtype and 4000 but not one on my etype 5 years later. We beat that press up printing 20x24 inch prints and it just keeps up.
Extreme,
I just realized who you are. You do some videos on Youtube. You have 2 business names on there I think. You have a 6 color etype and print with really large pallets. You do good work. Nice to see you here.
Thanks Jon, I think our youtube channel name is The Screen House. We have a video on the homepage of our website that shows all 3 mhm presses printing.
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We have a MHM4000 auto reg, the new Xtype and a small Etype. I can say that the only MHM machine that doesn't have drastic pallet deflection is the 4000. Now we all know how terrible pallet deflection is for printing high end process work or waterbase and discharge. I was a MHM loyalist but after looking at an sroque and how there built I would go Sroque unless your going with a 4000. The arms are huge on the Sroque and extend further out. That is the only negative on mhm presses but it is a huge negative that they need to do something about. Now the benefit of the MHM presses is rarely having to take your floods and squeeges out of press. Pop the head up and scrape the ink off and give it a quick wipe and your on to the next color, that alone lets my guys setup a few more jobs per day. I do not post here very often but I would hate to see someone not give Sroque a try just because everyone with MHMs says there comparable to a BMW in car terminology.
I would also like to add, no matter how good you register on the FPU you still have to micro 50% of the heads, if you say you don't then your not printing detailed stuff or you have a huge choke.
try using a 10X magnifying glass to place the films. It just about eliminates the need for registering (8 out of 10 are right on and don't need to be touched). Our standard stroke is 1pt for the spots and everything falls within that jsut fine. On the sim process jobs that are registered within few thousands of an inch, we need to do a little bit more, but not much. . .
what issues are you seeing with deflection? We hold the registration to under 5/1000th and have not had any problems with it. What should I be looking for?
Pierre
I have not seen the deflection affect reg. just causes problems with coverage and having to double stroke on our discharge underbase. We run everything discharge under with plastisol on top and our underbase head has to be at 5 bar. We are running 180-230 mesh 32nm and have to double hit 50% of the time mainly because of deflection. The print will clear at the bottom of the stroke but not the top. I here you guys talk about points, who sends vector art these days, 99% of the time we are working with crazy bitmap files created in photoshop. I think 1 point = 3 pixels at 300 dpi if i'm not mistaken. If we choke 3 pixels we either lose alot of detail or you can see the color falling off and to me it doesn't look very good.
You know this sounds like your head may not be parallel to the pallet. Have you measured the print carriage to the pallet? Do two measurements one in the front of the pallet and then one on the back of the pallet. Just move the print carriage from from to the back and measure from any point to the pallet. If its off your squeegee will lose "pressure" on the print if it lifts at all. I know it could be deflection too but if this is off it will always be a problem even at low pressure. If your printing with 5 bars that's 72.5 pounds. That's alot. if I was printing discharge that hard it would go all the way though the shirt easy. Most discharge prints (underbases) I use a soft squeegee and print with no more than 3-4 bars. I do print my discharges runny so that maybe the difference. Not saying your doing anything wrong, I know you know what your doing, just wanted to try to help point out a few things that may make your life easier.
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We have a MHM4000 auto reg, the new Xtype and a small Etype. I can say that the only MHM machine that doesn't have drastic pallet deflection is the 4000. Now we all know how terrible pallet deflection is for printing high end process work or waterbase and discharge. I was a MHM loyalist but after looking at an sroque and how there built I would go Sroque unless your going with a 4000. The arms are huge on the Sroque and extend further out. That is the only negative on mhm presses but it is a huge negative that they need to do something about. Now the benefit of the MHM presses is rarely having to take your floods and squeeges out of press. Pop the head up and scrape the ink off and give it a quick wipe and your on to the next color, that alone lets my guys setup a few more jobs per day. I do not post here very often but I would hate to see someone not give Sroque a try just because everyone with MHMs says there comparable to a BMW in car terminology.
I would also like to add, no matter how good you register on the FPU you still have to micro 50% of the heads, if you say you don't then your not printing detailed stuff or you have a huge choke.
try using a 10X magnifying glass to place the films. It just about eliminates the need for registering (8 out of 10 are right on and don't need to be touched). Our standard stroke is 1pt for the spots and everything falls within that jsut fine. On the sim process jobs that are registered within few thousands of an inch, we need to do a little bit more, but not much. . .
what issues are you seeing with deflection? We hold the registration to under 5/1000th and have not had any problems with it. What should I be looking for?
Pierre
I have not seen the deflection affect reg. just causes problems with coverage and having to double stroke on our discharge underbase. We run everything discharge under with plastisol on top and our underbase head has to be at 5 bar. We are running 180-230 mesh 32nm and have to double hit 50% of the time mainly because of deflection. The print will clear at the bottom of the stroke but not the top. I here you guys talk about points, who sends vector art these days, 99% of the time we are working with crazy bitmap files created in photoshop. I think 1 point = 3 pixels at 300 dpi if i'm not mistaken. If we choke 3 pixels we either lose alot of detail or you can see the color falling off and to me it doesn't look very good.
You know this sounds like your head may not be parallel to the pallet. Have you measured the print carriage to the pallet? Do two measurements one in the front of the pallet and then one on the back of the pallet. Just move the print carriage from from to the back and measure from any point to the pallet. If its off your squeegee will lose "pressure" on the print if it lifts at all. I know it could be deflection too but if this is off it will always be a problem even at low pressure. If your printing with 5 bars that's 72.5 pounds. That's alot. if I was printing discharge that hard it would go all the way though the shirt easy. Most discharge prints (underbases) I use a soft squeegee and print with no more than 3-4 bars. I do print my discharges runny so that maybe the difference. Not saying your doing anything wrong, I know you know what your doing, just wanted to try to help point out a few things that may make your life easier.
Even with that much pressure we don't print thru the shirt, I think the biggest issue is having to use 200-230 mesh, Discharge doesn't like to go thru that easily. I am pretty sure it's not a head parallel thing because it's in all 3 presses and different heads. I ordered those action double blade squeegees so I will report back how they work. Thanks for the suggestions I will double check the head just to be safe.
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Following this and the thread it split off with great interest right now.
I hate deflection, with a passion. It's one thing I don't ever want to have to explain to my press ops or really deal with. It's a real demon with even coverage/penetration and of course the issue is exacerbated with large image areas and process work. Any new press should be devoid of it, in my opinion. I agree that any machine will have some small degree of front/back deflection but I feel like it should be absolutely minimal even at very high stroke pressures.
I also agree that side/side deflection would be a parallel or setup issue by nature with a self leveling print head, unless maybe we're talking about really wide, oversized prints.
Could be mistaken but I think the new S-type and X-type heads both have the chopper depth adjustments, one on each side of the carriage?
On the MHMs, one feature I like is that you can stroke from the inside of the press out. Has anyone found this to be of benefit for dealing with deflection and also the inherent issue with passing the blade over shirt collars loaded onto the press? The shirt collars onto the platens cause extra deflection and fuel the need for pressure. I always thought that printing from outside in would be exponentially better. The ultimate, ideal in my mind would be stroking from outside in and the stroke slows down slightly just before hitting into the collar.
Last of, MHMs have peel. Could peel adjustment be playing into a need for high pressure and this cascading down into deflection problems?
I have zero experience on MHM machines but far too much with flexy older series 1 M&R machines and those machines, pain though they are when it comes to deflection, teach you so much on how to minimize and work with it.
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MHM has 1 single wheel you turn to increase or decrease squeegee height... no peel function on MHM
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I just checked, when pushing hard we have a deflection of slightly more than a 1/16th of an inch. Is that what everybody else is seeing?
pierre
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Ok I just went and checked my press. This deflection thing is driving me nuts. I haven't seen any effects from it and now everyone is talking about it.
This is what I did. I took a ruler and put it up against the front of the screen where the pallet tip is. I am printing at about 3.5 bars. There is, like Pierre said, about a 1/16 deflection when the squeegee comes down. Now That make me think. Where is this deflection coming from. Well I then looked at the pallet arm. There does not seam to be any movement there. The MHM pallets have to connection points. These are small bars that the pallet attaches to. What it is is the pallet is bending from that point. So just the tip is bending. Makes sense. Is that what others are seeing. There really is a easy fix if it bothers you. Just add one more block to the tend of the pallet. This will take away that pivot point and the pallet will be more solid. Kind of what one guy I know does with his 20" pallets from Action that bend a ton at the ends. He puts a piece of Laminate flooring between the pallet and the pallet support at the end.
I have to say I have not seen any effect from this. I print alot of butt registration and have no issues. I guess maybe Extreme sees it more since he is doing larger prints. I don't know. I wonder if other presses see this? Does the Srough do that same thing since it has honeycomb pallets???
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Just throwing this out there but if you are at 7 bar on one head and 2-3 on the others when printing on the one with the higher pressure it will deflect more. Then print on the lower pressure ones deflect less. Depending how much it deflects on the high one could throw reg out in theory, distorting the image. Printing within 1 bar (14psi) of each other should clear this up.
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MHM has 1 single wheel you turn to increase or decrease squeegee height... no peel function on MHM
from my recent quotes for both X-type and S-types:
"Individual screen lift/lower, with screen peel."
Maybe this is a newer feature? I don't see why peel wouldn't be incorporated in any heads up/down machine.
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Just throwing this out there but if you are at 7 bar on one head and 2-3 on the others when printing on the one with the higher pressure it will deflect more. Then print on the lower pressure ones deflect less. Depending how much it deflects on the high one could throw reg out in theory, distorting the image. Printing within 1 bar (14psi) of each other should clear this up.
Brian as a guy that installs presses, what have you seen? Is 1/16th a lot? What is normal? Are there any that do not flex at all?
pierre
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Just throwing this out there but if you are at 7 bar on one head and 2-3 on the others when printing on the one with the higher pressure it will deflect more. Then print on the lower pressure ones deflect less. Depending how much it deflects on the high one could throw reg out in theory, distorting the image. Printing within 1 bar (14psi) of each other should clear this up.
This is how it goes on the old series 1 machines like our Gauntlet. Sonny helped teach me this. After a lot of work with deflection my conclusion is that some is OK but if any is present then the key is to deflect the same amount on all heads. Otherwise yes, no reg or worse, inconsistent reg. To make it really work you logically must have very similar mesh/tension/blade/angle/speed/ink rheology in addition to similar pressure.
This limits what you can do with the machine, near zero deflection is preferred as you can really adjust all of the above just right for it's ink and place in the art.
So if the deflection is not so extreme as to cause coverage or penetration issues than it's no problem provided you can run each job as I outlined above. If that won't fly for your shop then deflection won't fly either.
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We keep are base at 5 and top colors at 4, if we go less it can throw reg off by elongation. Jon watch the rod that comes up from the bottom and the support arm, at first I thought it was the pallets and we did add a solid block of channel under our pallets to take up for that gap and no dice. Still deflection. I say this is a problem because trying to train employees about variables is tough, when I use to print I could easily work around stuff like this but asking your employees to is few and far between. I am not saying it causes registration issues but I am saying it makes certain jobs a pain. When you spend 100,000 on a press there should be no deflection. If the Sroque can do it then MHM should have a fix for it. I have shown both MHM techs and they tell me I print with to much pressure. I then ask them to tell me how to print with less and get the results I get with my process. There answer is we are not printers. Trust me I have tried everything to not have deflection. I will also say that the etype pressure is different than the Stype or 4000, 3 bars on the etype is equivalent to 5 on the Stype. My thought on this is you can lower then height of the blade more on the etype but on the stype and 4000 you are limited by the mechanics of the chopper setup, you could have 200 pounds of pressure driving a squeegee but if the blade doesn't go down far enough than it doesn't matter. By putting rubber on the pallets you will gain some height and that should help a lot.
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Just throwing this out there but if you are at 7 bar on one head and 2-3 on the others when printing on the one with the higher pressure it will deflect more. Then print on the lower pressure ones deflect less. Depending how much it deflects on the high one could throw reg out in theory, distorting the image. Printing within 1 bar (14psi) of each other should clear this up.
This is how it goes on the old series 1 machines like our Gauntlet. Sonny helped teach me this. After a lot of work with deflection my conclusion is that some is OK but if any is present then the key is to deflect the same amount on all heads. Otherwise yes, no reg or worse, inconsistent reg. To make it really work you logically must have very similar mesh/tension/blade/angle/speed/ink rheology in addition to similar pressure.
This limits what you can do with the machine, near zero deflection is preferred as you can really adjust all of the above just right for it's ink and place in the art.
So if the deflection is not so extreme as to cause coverage or penetration issues than it's no problem provided you can run each job as I outlined above. If that won't fly for your shop then deflection won't fly either.
Zoo you just summed up my thoughts exactly, it throws to many variables and we already as printers deal with enough variables.
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Man, I can't stop posting on this one.
Jon, if it's the platen material itself flexing, you're correct, easier fix there. Just support the platen material or use more rigid material. OEM honeycomb on that press should have been strong enough to avoid this. If it wasn't/isn't then there is a design flaw regarding the bracket/arm support in my opinion and this is what I'm deeply interested in as we are looking very hard at an MHM machine but I won't tolerate defection as an inherent design flaw.
We solved a big chunk of the worst of our deflection woes by swapping out the older M&R brackets on our press, which were very short, with full length brackets which support the tooling plate along the entire length of the platen. Big difference there.
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I say this is a problem because trying to train employees about variables is tough, when I use to print I could easily work around stuff like this but asking your employees to is few and far between. I am not saying it causes registration issues but I am saying it makes certain jobs a pain. When you spend 100,000 on a press there should be no deflection.
And you just summed up mine! My crew can understand some of this, nearly all of it in fact, but then they ask "so why did anyone build the machine this way" and I can only shrug.
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I feel like the acceptable amount of deflection is relative to your off contact.
ex/ Our plastisol o.c. is 5/32" off the platen's top to screen, or ≈0.16". So 1/16", or ≈0.06" is 37.5% of our overall off contact. On Jon or Pierre's E type, we would have a situation that varies in off contact from front to back by 37.5%.
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Extreme, what durometer of squeegee and angle are you using for your DC ubase? Your results speak
for themselves but there are plenty of ways to skin a cat or whatever. We can completely penetrate most
fabrics with 3 bars or so and discharge white on a 230 mesh. All about duro/angle/speed.
Deflection has not, to my knowledge, given us any issues on our S-Type.
The S-Roque's are essentially a MHM 3000/4000 as far as I can tell, in terms of platen support and drive.
Lot of similarities there really, which likely means it's a good machine.
Fact is, ANY machine without cast arms that are like a foot in diameter, CH3's included, are going to exhibit
platen deflection if you are printing with serious pressure. The cost to overcome what many deem a minor issue
is what keeps manufacturers from eliminating this issue, I'm sure.
I will say this, a pallet support system that is closer to acute, with the furthest outward support as close to
the pallet tip as possible, will be a hell of a lot stronger than a more obtuse triangle as seen on American made machines.
That's simple geometry.
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I honestly could not say whats too much. I would have to say as little as possible or not enough to deflect the pallet or head to the point of distorting the image. I think it has to do more with the printer then the machine.
I will say this much, I have been to plenty of shops where they print plastisol like discharge, mash the ink through the screen instead of shearing it running 70-80 psi. You can actually watch the head and or pallet arm move. I can usually show them by tweaking other things they can get a better print with less pressure.
My old Jav and Olympian it would be next to impossible to deflect anything. On our current press I can not go over 40 psi (3 bar +/-) without popping a squeegee. This has had a few consequences, first we had to learn how to print just about everything between 15-35 psi, second I have to step down a mesh size and double stroke on every discharge job in order to get good penetration. The best improvement we have found is that red white and blue squeegee, I have no idea what it is just that it kicks ass.
I have had the pleasure of printing on a press like Zoo's and its just like he said if your not carful there is all kinds of deflection.
I am not saying its not possible but MHM has that nice support rod under each pallet arm, just can't believe that would deflect. But like Jon said where the pallet pivots makes the difference.
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I just went and did some more measurements. From the frame to the pallet I only see deflection in the front part of the pallet. The back part or between the two mounts I see no movement or too little movement to measure. The only deflection I see on my 10 color e-type is from the bending of the front of the pallet before the first mount. That is at 3 to 4 bars. I measured the pallet support arm and there is no movement there. All these measurements are from the bottom of the frame. The only movement is in the front part of the pallet. So that means that the first 13.5 inches of the pallet is moving by 1/16 of a inch at the point or end. Most of my prints don't even start until 5.5 inches into the board (tapered neck boards). So let's say that is half of the 13.5 inches. That would mean I have 1/32 of a inch of deflection to 0 deflection on the first 6.75 inches of my prints. This is just my findings.
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I didn't measure either, but we're running discharge though 280's at about 3.5 bar, and I'm not seeing any movement
in the support arm. The tip of the pallet is flexing quite a bit, but like Jon, we start our prints pretty low.
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Maybe they positioned the support arms to eliminate deflection at the start of the print area and considered the rest of the platen from there out to be for shirt positioning? Or would you guys be losing image area by staying out of the "deflection zone"?
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I didn't measure either, but we're running discharge though 280's at about 3.5 bar, and I'm not seeing any movement
in the support arm. The tip of the pallet is flexing quite a bit, but like Jon, we start our prints pretty low.
A lot of our prints are 17-21 inches tall and that's mainly were we have to place our images at mark 3 or 4 on the fpu.
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More food for thought if your printing too close to the ends or sides of a screen frame it could cause distortion of the image.
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Maybe they positioned the support arms to eliminate deflection at the start of the print area and considered the rest of the platen from there out to be for shirt positioning? Or would you guys be losing image area by staying out of the "deflection zone"?
You can't start all your prints below that flex point. This too low and you would never be able to position the art correctly. I have never seen any registration problems. I can't say I have seen any deposit or stroke thickness changes either. Extreme is printing much wider and taller than I do. My standard prints are no more than 13 wide by about 16 to 19 tall.
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I think I can see a good picture of the deflection on these machines now. Really doesn't sound like at issue at smaller print size but a very real one at large print sizes. I've heard this from other e-type users who routinely printed at max image size. We see the same pattern on our Gauntlet, max image area can be gnarly, the effect of the deflection is just multiplied more over longer image areas.
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I think the E-Types can start printing higher up/closer to screen frame than the S-Types.
We put our reg marks at #3 on the FPU, but art starts at about #4, so that we know we won't have issues
with clearing. This is about 9" or so from frame edge, which seems like a lot, but we can print to within an inch or two
on the other end.
We run with our pallets placed fully inward as well.
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I think the E-Types can start printing higher up/closer to screen frame than the S-Types.
We put our reg marks at #3 on the FPU, but art starts at about #4, so that we know we won't have issues
with clearing. This is about 9" or so from frame edge, which seems like a lot, but we can print to within an inch or two
on the other end.
We run with our pallets placed fully inward as well.
Have you ever tried printing outward in, It seems like it would help with covering but I just can't wrap my head around it. Seems so backwards when I am prinitng. LOL
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I think the E-Types can start printing higher up/closer to screen frame than the S-Types.
We put our reg marks at #3 on the FPU, but art starts at about #4, so that we know we won't have issues
with clearing. This is about 9" or so from frame edge, which seems like a lot, but we can print to within an inch or two
on the other end.
We run with our pallets placed fully inward as well.
Have you ever tried printing outward in, It seems like it would help with covering but I just can't wrap my head around it. Seems so backwards when I am prinitng. LOL
hmm, we print outward->inward. We were about to switch, but with all the new staff the timing was not right. So just to confirm, you start at the bottom of the shirt?
pierre
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I think the E-Types can start printing higher up/closer to screen frame than the S-Types.
We put our reg marks at #3 on the FPU, but art starts at about #4, so that we know we won't have issues
with clearing. This is about 9" or so from frame edge, which seems like a lot, but we can print to within an inch or two
on the other end.
We run with our pallets placed fully inward as well.
Have you ever tried printing outward in, It seems like it would help with covering but I just can't wrap my head around it. Seems so backwards when I am prinitng. LOL
hmm, we print outward->inward. We were about to switch, but with all the new staff the timing was not right. So just to confirm, you start at the bottom of the shirt?
pierre
We print same as you, Outward inward I would like to try to print the opposite though, I watch videos in different countries with MHMs and they all print inward outward. Makes sense seeing how that point is fixed and the inward point is not.
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They also print with 2PSI in other countries. I don't get it.
And all MHM factory workers wear the same blue overalls. It's weird.
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They also print with 2PSI in other countries. I don't get it.
And all MHM factory workers wear the same blue overalls. It's weird.
I saw those goofy overalls, I should get some for my press ops, bet they will love that.LOL
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I was going to print inward to try it out but the squeegee would be on the inside so you lose another 2.5 inches of the top of your screen. It does make more sense to print that way since the screen holder your pushing against is fixed. The way we print your pushing against the air pressure of the screen holder.