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screen printing => General Screen Printing => Topic started by: brandon on August 27, 2011, 12:27:02 AM
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Hey Everyone,
Just started printing this week with silicone ink. Very, very cool! Pretty amazing stuff. Just seeing if any one of the old timers out there can chime in with experience. With the correct mesh and EOM the ink deposit is amazing. Our client is going for the super thick high density thing. The sporty, snowboarding hiking glove thing. Don't know if that makes sense but imagine the thickest print and multiply by 3. A lot of microns going on! And you can add pigment to the ink so it is not clear. Just can't wait to be in full production! We saw it in Long Beach at the ISS show and we have a very large client who needs a lot of work. Hopefully we can bring it back to the US from China. Man, I need to start learning Mandarin Chinese. Any info would be great! Thanks people
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No kidding. Who's making it? Last I checked Dow-Corning had nearly abandoned there sil ink project.
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No kiddin', we just had to buy some for some Speedo caps. I am one of the old timers, but haven't had to use it before this, the caps were always rubber, and therefore used rubber inks... it did print very well
Steve
pricey
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Steve what kind of rubber inks? I've seen ones for latex but I need to print on some bike innertubes, butyl rubber.
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Zoo, have you talked to Union Process? They have a helpful tech on board.
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No kidding. Who's making it? Last I checked Dow-Corning had nearly abandoned there sil ink project.
Not sure where you got the word that DOW were abandoning their silicone textile inks project but the information is incorrect. In reality the situation is almost exactly the opposite. Nazdar SourceOne has been working with DOW on a co-manufactured program utilizing their clear mixing base of partnered with a Nazdar Developed Pigment Concentrate system, along with ready for use RFU Underbase white and black.
The system will be marketed under the Nazdar ImageStar label “powered” by DOW and is currently in beta test at a small number of accounts across the United States, that focus on the decoration of performance athletic wear. These printers are interested in the Silicone inks due to their Non-PVC chemistry, superior adhesion, stretch ability, and resistance to abrasion.
It’s still way too early to claim that the combination of DOW and Nazdar SourceOne have developed an ink system that has hit it out of the park with regard to on-press performance, but the initial reviews are all very positive. More news to follow.
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Very good to know. Would silicone ink be a good fit for 100% cotton?
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Just a tidbit about silicone inks that very few people know about.
Any silicone ink you mix/buy will need to have an activator added for it to crosslink/cure.
This is just like what you need to do currently for jackets. Also it is similar to adding ZFS to waterbase inks to get the discharge effect. Once it is catalized you will have a 6-8 hour window to print your ink. Once you are done, you will need to dispose of the ink as it waill harden up just like jacket inks will.
Otherwise, everything I have heard and seen about the silicone inks for the last several years has been very promising.
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Just a tidbit about silicone inks that very few people know about.
Any silicone ink you mix/buy will need to have an activator added for it to crosslink/cure.
This is just like what you need to do currently for jackets. Also it is similar to adding ZFS to waterbase inks to get the discharge effect. Once it is catalized you will have a 6-8 hour window to print your ink. Once you are done, you will need to dispose of the ink as it waill harden up just like jacket inks will.
Otherwise, everything I have heard and seen about the silicone inks for the last several years has been very promising.
Colin: Thanks for chiming in with this important information about the activator, and you’re absolutely correct about the 8 hour pot-life for the catalyzed ink. On a very long (extending over multiple shifts) run it’s entirely possible that you will need to mix multiple batches of ink to complete the job which is why having an accurate and repeatable color matching system is so important. I hope that you are doing well and that you get hired on with someone real soon.
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Just a tidbit about silicone inks that very few people know about.
Any silicone ink you mix/buy will need to have an activator added for it to crosslink/cure.
This is just like what you need to do currently for jackets. Also it is similar to adding ZFS to waterbase inks to get the discharge effect. Once it is catalized you will have a 6-8 hour window to print your ink. Once you are done, you will need to dispose of the ink as it waill harden up just like jacket inks will.
Otherwise, everything I have heard and seen about the silicone inks for the last several years has been very promising.
Colin: Thanks for chiming in with this important information about the activator, and you’re absolutely correct about the 8 hour pot-life for the catalyzed ink. On a very long (extending over multiple shifts) run it’s entirely possible that you will need to mix multiple batches of ink to complete the job which is why having an accurate and repeatable color matching system is so important. I hope that you are doing well and that you get hired on with someone real soon.
Back in April 2010, I was curious about a new miracle ink for performance fabrics, and I was told by a Dow rep that it was actually being held back for a reformulation to improve pot life.
I was also lead to believe that I would have to qualify for a second mortgage to get this stuff, but hopefully that was an exageration. ;D
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Thanks for the update Peter! And the input Colin! I got that impression from a rep from D-C a year or maybe more back. They seemed to be having trouble with the on-press performance generally speaking at that time. I can't remember which project I was into at the time that I was hunting it down for.
My shop would be interested in a silicone ink as somewhat rarely used (assuming the price point is high as Frog mentioned) ink for both garments when called for but also those weird items like this butyl rubber I need to print on that obviously needs an ink with a lot of adhesion. The bike innertubes in this case are sewn into wallets so it would seem a good fit there to have a durable, slightly HD looking logo. The attraction is having an ink that has the durability and adhesion of a solvent system without the solvents. Price would be less of an issue for us if you could buy it as a base that could be pigmented with PCs for example. I don't predict many applications where you'd be printing large areas of the sil ink. Thick/tall perhaps.
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Oh and this stuff is low-temp cure right?
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Oh and this stuff is low-temp cure right?
That's what initially excited us for problem fabrics.
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Thanks for the update Peter! And the input Colin! I got that impression from a rep from D-C a year or maybe more back. They seemed to be having trouble with the on-press performance generally speaking at that time. I can't remember which project I was into at the time that I was hunting it down for.
My shop would be interested in a silicone ink as somewhat rarely used (assuming the price point is high as Frog mentioned) ink for both garments when called for but also those weird items like this butyl rubber I need to print on that obviously needs an ink with a lot of adhesion. The bike innertubes in this case are sewn into wallets so it would seem a good fit there to have a durable, slightly HD looking logo. The attraction is having an ink that has the durability and adhesion of a solvent system without the solvents. Price would be less of an issue for us if you could buy it as a base that could be pigmented with PCs for example. I don't predict many applications where you'd be printing large areas of the sil ink. Thick/tall perhaps.
Zoo: You are right about the on-press performance and stability issues with the initial versions of the DOW silicone inks. I "think" that working together Nazdar and DOW have overcome these earlier problems on the current version of the ImageStar / DOW co-branded product, and I'll know even more after the Beta testing is completed. The ink is pricey, no doubt about it, but it's not out of this world. (It might put another $0.10 to $0.15 on the cost of a printed garment and I'll gladly post pricing on this site as soon as the ink is officially launched.
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And when it's made for a while, and the production ramps up, the prices will probably drop slightly.
I am printing the crap out of technical stuff right now. Never seems to end. We have a contract customer that makes shirts overseas and sells them to sports leagues.
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Steve what kind of rubber inks? I've seen ones for latex but I need to print on some bike innertubes, butyl rubber.
Union Process...
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Union Process (http://www.unionprocess.com/inks.html) (not to be confused with Union Inks) may still be a resource for Zoo and his Butyl rubber project (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php?topic=1290.0), but it doesn't look promising.
Almost everything I read mentions either Latex as the substrate or solvent. A call could verify if they would still work on butyl rubber, but I'm afraid that the solvent base is a deal breaker for him.
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Yes Chris, the Silicone inks have a very low cure. Been about a year since I looked at it, but I beleive it was as low as 220... maybe lower. And that was for just the DOW version. From what I know about the base formulation of what DOW built this product off of (the old VP at QCM used to manufacture silicone roofing products that competed with the DOW products) It should remain very low cure. Perfect for very delicate fabrics. With what Nazdar may be doing to it, it should not fluctuate to any level that would impact the fabrics you will print on. And will be a product I pick up if/when I start my own shop.
Thanks for the kind words Peter. I'm having a great time with my "late life summer vacation" and am thinking about starting my own business... as it seems I am even more overqualified in the Pac. Norwest than I originally thought.
Oh, Peter, Is there any improvement on being able to print these inks wet-on-wet?
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Union Process ([url]http://www.unionprocess.com/inks.html[/url]) (not to be confused with Union Inks) may still be a resource for Zoo and his Butyl rubber project ([url]http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php?topic=1290.0[/url]), but it doesn't look promising.
Almost everything I read mentions either Latex as the substrate or solvent. A call could verify if they would still work on butyl rubber, but I'm afraid that the solvent base is a deal breaker for him.
WOW, about 30 miles away from me (around 45 from Pierre).
It is nice to know that.
Thanks Andy
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Agreed Frog. I noticed that Union Process' rubber inks need thinned with mineral spirits so I may as well just rock TW 11000 series or a Nazdar equivalent if solvents must be involved. I'm going to test our wb 5500 flat series on the tubes for adhesion early next week just to see if it can do the trick. (these do have solvents in the water-bourne mix but they're of the mild, glycol variety).
Colin, if I owned a screen supply distro I would hire you in a heart beat. Nobody I've bumped into in the industry has done a better job of giving actual, on the ground technical support for their products than you have. The market's probably flooded for it in the region but you could run a little ink & supplies distro and a small shop that would double as a testing grounds when not in production. I'd pay extra to buy our ink from you! Also, I can say that we appear to have dearth of distributors dedicated to the Intermountain West which seems odd given that it feels like we have a crap load of screen shops per capita. There's 2-3 bigger boys and about 7 or more smaller operations in my town alone. I know for a fact many of them could use a little tech support. Again, all the best to you.
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Oh, Peter, Is there any improvement on being able to print these inks wet-on-wet?
Colin: Improving the pot life, developing a pigment concentrate mixing system, and getting the ink to where it could print multiple colors wet-on-wet have all been key design factors that Nazdar SourceOne and DOW have been working through these past 8 or 9 months. As stated in an earlier post, we have made some great strides in these areas, and will know more when the beta testing is complete. Although, I still need to throw out the following caution: Silicone inks do not print the same, nor are they as production friendly as the regular plastisol that we are all used to working with.
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Hey Guys,
Wow, I missed all this because of work and moving for the past three days. But thank you everyone for all the info. And a special thank you to Dave Julo over at Nazdar. He has been great with ink samples and all around info. As soon as we go into heavy production with it I will post some updates. This weekend I will also put up some sample pics of the prints we are getting. Very cool stuff! Alright, back to work and then back to unpacking when I get home. Ugh...
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Oh, Peter, Is there any improvement on being able to print these inks wet-on-wet?
Colin: Improving the pot life, developing a pigment concentrate mixing system, and getting the ink to where it could print multiple colors wet-on-wet have all been key design factors that Nazdar SourceOne and DOW have been working through these past 8 or 9 months. As stated in an earlier post, we have made some great strides in these areas, and will know more when the beta testing is complete. Although, I still need to throw out the following caution: Silicone inks do not print the same, nor are they as production friendly as the regular plastisol that we are all used to working with.
I for one will be a cheerleader for this final product, I am so glad that DC finally decided to “do something” and you guys picked it up, the product has already proven to be a very promising addition to the printers toolbox. Trying to make plastisol work on everything has always been a downfall.
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"Silicone inks do not print the same, nor are they as production friendly as the regular plastisol that we are all used to working with."
While not as friendly but with a little extra time on the stencil and backing off on pressure we have achieved some great results. I for one cannot wait to get the production rolling! And plastisol or water based inks are not the answer for everything, even though I wish water base was.
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Here is a pic of one of our samples for a client. They are going after the high density thing for sure.
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looks good Brandon!