TSB
screen printing => General Screen Printing => Topic started by: Gilligan on September 30, 2014, 06:12:27 PM
-
Just trying to get some ideas on what some of you guys are running when it comes to autos.
Obviously what works for one doesn't work for another directly but we aren't even sure where the starting point is... ok, well, where the next step is.
Not clearing white ink, what should we try first?
Not clearing blue ink, what should we try first?
Everything clearing fine but print not quite opaque enough...
Everything clearing fine and print looks good... could we be doing it faster or with LESS ink and still get better results/hand?
We are learning their are LOTS of variables to play with now that we have the auto... just no real direction known. You know how it feels right? ;)
If it matters, we are running a Saber with AC heads.
-
Gonna be watching this, as this has always been a challenge for us.
my eureka moment when we shifted to chopper heads was a bit of angle and way lower pressure than you think. most prints now are 30 PSI or less (except for discharge, where we kick it up to 40ish).
70/90/70 squeegee for most prints... and when I have a white that's not fully clearing, slowing down the squeegee is the first thing I try... I try to increase pressure as my last resort...
I may not be doing it "right", but that's what seems to work best for me.
Always open to suggestions to better my work tho :)
-
Just trying to get some ideas on what some of you guys are running when it comes to autos.
Obviously what works for one doesn't work for another directly but we aren't even sure where the starting point is... ok, well, where the next step is.
Not clearing white ink, what should we try first?
Not clearing blue ink, what should we try first?
Everything clearing fine but print not quite opaque enough...
Everything clearing fine and print looks good... could we be doing it faster or with LESS ink and still get better results/hand?
We are learning their are LOTS of variables to play with now that we have the auto... just no real direction known. You know how it feels right? ;)
If it matters, we are running a Saber with AC heads.
Just generally speaking, but if you AREN'T clearing, and you are sure that's it, flood harder, more upright squeegee angle, harder/sharper squeegee, slow down,
lower mesh, add pressure, in that order.
If you are clearing and it's not opaque enough, speed up (like way up) decrease pressure, lower angle, softer squeegee, lower mesh. If an ink IS clearing
but ISN'T opaque it's usually a thin bodied transparent ink, and those generally like fast speeds and soft squeegees and a super light touch.
These are all generalizations but for the first time auto-er they should help get you where you are going. Don't shoot flaming arrows please.
-
what squeegie duro you using? we use harder for the thicker inks or detail. we have narrowed down to 3 duros, 60/75/60 for wb/dc - 70/90/70 for day to day stuff and 75/90/75 for less ink deposit/ detailed stuff. more angle = more deposit to some degree. If you choose too soft of duro and have too much angle, it will skim over the ink instead of pump it. want more ink deposit = speed up the stroke... I didn't believe it either until we tested it....make sure your inks are to temp as well....less ink = harder blade and/or stand it up more..
of course -the VERY first place to start is tight screens. ain't nuttin pumpin' through a loose mesh. and choosing a mesh count is way more important now that you can't simply stroke it again like you could manually...knock it off Moose, I can already hear a wiseass comment from you... ;D
I have a chart someplace near the press with all sorts of suggestions copied from the guys here, I'll see if I can find it and I'll send you my notes...
**this works for us a majority of the time, as always there are many exceptions to the rule**
by the way, I just saw the V squeegies yesterday at a shop I visited and I can not believe the angle on those things...I've never seen one before...so there's a deal where everything i think I know gets tossed out the window.
-
We do whites on a 150-S with a 75/90/75 at around 15 degree angle. Pressure around 25 PSI. Speed, well how can I say, probably some medium speed setting;)
-
Man this is awesome stuff!!! I know nothing is really concrete as there are so many damn variables but this is exactly what I was looking for. Some steps and some cause and effect to go along with the steps!
Homer, that would be awesome if you could dig that up... You should have my email but if not shoot me a pm. I realized shortly after getting the auto all those posts I had been reading all these years, knowing one day it would apply to me, didn't mean much since I neglected to take notes on so much of it (kicking myself now!)
Also, I would have added squeegee durometer to the equation but the subject line wouldn't fit any more into my joke. ;)
We have the 70 stuff that came with it, a fair amount of 55/90/55 (I think that's the numbers) from techsupport. Loaded one holder with it but we haven't had a chance to play with it, well, we did on a 100% poly job but it was backfiring. As I can now see, we had too much angle and it was skidding along (strangest looking thing with that Rutland Super Poly), I played with a few variables real quick, but the job had to get done ASAP so my guy kicked me off and just got it done with the 70. We also have a 60 or 64 or something crazy from those monster scoop coater guys, haven't loaded that up. Need to get some standard triple stuff, we had some for the manual that came with the press and was still in good shape so we don't have any rolls of it laying around like we do the other odd stuff.
Also want to get some beveled (is Sonny calling my phone already?!) and some smiling jacks and such, maybe I can see what other secret weapons Alan has been hoarding. ;)
We are also using Meteor White from Green Galaxy and still digging it for the most part... It has the viscosity of a standard ink so when we have to use a 50/50 or Poly white we don't know what to do with ourselves. Still funny to see white drooping down a screen that is standing up off press.
-
Oh, and we are all S-mesh with retens... We don't have many meshed up right now, but that is slowly changing!
-
Oh, and we are all S-mesh with retens... We don't have many meshed up right now, but that is slowly changing!
The Murakami S mesh made such a difference for us. We are still in the middle of changing our Roller frames from roller mesh to Murakami S mesh.
-
Oh, and we are all S-mesh with retens... We don't have many meshed up right now, but that is slowly changing!
The Murakami S mesh made such a difference for us. We are still in the middle of changing our Roller frames from roller mesh to Murakami S mesh.
We were lucky, we went from crappy wood frames straight to newmans with s mesh almost right out of the box... Printed statics for only like 3-6 months, almost nothing if counting pcs/jobs as we were just starting.
-
Also want to get some beveled (is Sonny calling my phone already?!) and some smiling jacks and such, maybe I can see what other secret weapons Alan has been hoarding. ;)
Give me a call manana.
For those of you who don't know here is the order of squeegee
1 Double Bevel / Smiling Jack
2 Triple durometer
These make life easier.
Parameters to take into account in no particular order are screen type. Ink type. Off contact. Reliability of press holding ever tighter tolerances. General trouble shooting skills. Ability to try it for yourself before discarding it out of hand. Willingness to ask for help. Willingness to toss out all preconceived notions. :o 8) :o 8)
-
Like clockwork Sonny! ;)
-
Maybe I can come by the shop the next time we visit my wife's parents and share what we do in various situations and we can both learn something. Do you use M&R style squeegees? I can bring some stuff with me to try if so.
-
That would be awesome!
Even if it's a weekend, I'll meet you and I'm sure Terry would as well... As long as he's not off being Spider-Man or Prince Charming. ;)
-
That would be awesome!
Even if it's a weekend, I'll meet you and I'm sure Terry would as well... As long as he's not off being Spider-Man or Prince Charming. ;)
Damn near choked on my frosted flakes on that last part.
I don't have anything to add to what has already been said. Opacity is directly affected by pressure and speed (as well as a few other variables) but you're using the right mesh and the ink is fine, so you need to focus on getting your pressure right with speed and those 2 will change with one another. Squeegee is important but if it's a sharp edge and whether it's a triple, double bevel, smiling jack, etc. they will all work...some just slightly better than others.
I've got all kinds of experimental blades that work great but I don't know that Joe is going to focus on the textile market much because it's so wishy-washy with what blades work in which shop. There are so many good print shops out there that can benefit from Joe's blades but there are those that don't have luck with them that I know are good printers which complicates the ability for Joe to sell enough blades to make it worth while. I've got a few blades that are flat out amazing with white ink but I know if those blades got into a shop that didn't do things the way we do they would be a disaster.
-
If Brian and I can't find a free weekday then I'll let you know the next weekend I am coming your way. And if Terry is role playing I may have to check that out as opposed to the Sabre!
-
Too busy to answer properly but what we are discussing here are interdependent variables that vary exponentially. Also a bit of chaos theory. Continue to talk amongst yourselves.
PS Waterbase is soooo much easier :D
-
You guys may think I'm throwing him under the buss or selling him out here, but he LOVES this picture. LOL I slapped him when he showed me this picture as he was so giddy about it, he needed to be b!tch slapped. ;)
(https://scontent-b-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t31.0-8/s720x720/10683401_10152474357683022_8415534017043277138_o.jpg)
Now, if I posted the pictures of him as the pirate he wouldn't be as ok with it. ;)
-
I don't have anything to add to what has already been said. Opacity is directly affected by pressure and speed (as well as a few other variables) but you're using the right mesh and the ink is fine, so you need to focus on getting your pressure right with speed and those 2 will change with one another. Squeegee is important but if it's a sharp edge and whether it's a triple, double bevel, smiling jack, etc. they will all work...some just slightly better than others.
I've got all kinds of experimental blades that work great but I don't know that Joe is going to focus on the textile market much because it's so wishy-washy with what blades work in which shop. There are so many good print shops out there that can benefit from Joe's blades but there are those that don't have luck with them that I know are good printers which complicates the ability for Joe to sell enough blades to make it worth while. I've got a few blades that are flat out amazing with white ink but I know if those blades got into a shop that didn't do things the way we do they would be a disaster.
Been following this thread, great information...
Also just became a screenprinter only about a month ago! ( I mean, really actually working as a manual printer for a small local shop, after about 10 years in the industry climbing up and over the other side of graphics/art direction pre-press/separations etc... only ever doing a few prints here or there over the years but "in theory" knowing most of the process) - I have been doing the "seps in a garbage can" market insanity for the past few years, excellent opportunity for hardcore 24/7 R&D, but missed the real chance of being at a shop since I had been freelance art/seps for a while before that... so I've been meaning to get out of the house and back in a real shop, while building up my more art-print/sample-print and R&D related personal/professional studio. I really did not want to bother with all the other aspects of starting a custom or b2b etc shop, so I figured the best thing I could do for my career and experience going forward was dive face-first into the shallow end and be a PRINTER! lol. Well, actually I have always been a production kind of guy, technical etc.. and working in graphics or pre-press for screenprint you have to be, you'll be fiddling with vellum and film and toner and ink and printer problems all day anyway, hah. But I'm getting to take jobs from art to seps to film to screens to press etc every day now, mostly simple stuff it is a very small shop... but it was a perfect circumstance... a guy there who was the main printer needed to leave and work at his own shop (does mostly waterbase/discharge and paper/poster print but shirts also etc... you know the story there, most of the industry has this problem with the turn-over to self-start-ups and all) -- but I got to spend just a few days learning from that guy, although he had about 7 or 8 years experience I'm sure I would have learned a lot more from him, but I was on my own soon. A month in and I am so glad I did this, getting the real hang of it and facing all manner of things, learning as I go, getting some opportunity to test and calibrate and put a lot of my own tools and methods into use... also getting back into embroidery and digitizing, doing the art and setups... but the shop and its current state are another topic or thread, haha... I'm dealing with it, I wouldn't have gotten a chance to jump in and be the sole art/sep/print guy if it were a bigger more professional shop, let alone one with Autos, I wanted to learn manual of course first really doing it day to day, get familiar etc and do good enough for the shop I work at to get us making a profit and growing, needing the reason to have an auto vs. other scaling models. Anyway, for this thread topic in particular, how does it relate to me just starting out manual screenprinting?
Well basically, I realized just the other day over the weekend how much better it is in so many ways to try and combine some of these factors in the right sweet-spot... the speed really needs to be so much faster than I see most people doing it/teaching it, etc... the pressure does not have to be crazy, that is why people do it slow, forcing the squeegee down too far and going way too slow... sure a white is much thicker even with some reduction but once you get going you can make it cut fast almost as fast as the others... it goes quicker in production but besides the point.. the quality is better... with a good off-contact distance and the tension and sharpness -- you can literally feel (in my opinion) when you're cutting (and see it by what you're clearing over the emulsion layer too) the squeegee if its sharp and that you're doing the right angle and shearing the ink through the mesh, flooding in a similar way just not really forcing the pressure too much, and not as fast but when I was printing the other day... in addition of course to getting my print-flash-print (cool down) to work right so the other color would go through and not mix up and need a print-flash-print also... I started trying out faster speeds in my manual pull and push strokes... what a difference!
Really, I am having to be careful not to snap back too quick after so the ink doesn't fly around, lol. But I notice if its a good off-contact to tension ratio, and squeegee is sharp, ink is not too thick or has been worked up to a more print-friendly viscosity, then you can probably pull faster than an auto, especially with smaller designs/squeegees/areas.. not printing faster but I was doing some very fast speeds and it was making all the difference... instead of stepping on the ink and doing other unwanted things probably with a slower/higher-pressure stroke - which creates the ink-mixing over ink or smearing design / mis-registration etc... it is like squeegee speed if you can get all the other factors to work, then it will just cut the ink through perfectly letting the mesh pull back instantly with the tension/off-contact, leaving the ink you want on the design, smooth and clean-cut. I really noticed the difference, and I think you can "feel" the difference more so if you try this out manually, then it might make even more sense to you guys with the automatics as to why this perhaps helps the print... wet-on-wet I am sure this makes all the difference... too slow and its going to force with the pressure the ink to mix in the mesh while it is pressed down (perhaps), but with the right swiftness it cuts the ink through mesh snaps back dropping off the ink.
Thanks again, just sharing my experience and excitement at jumping into the fray, finally getting the pleasure of washing plastisol ink off my hands umpteenth times a day.
:P
I switched up my manual printing method (even before coming across this thread, I sort of tried it out and was noticing way better results.. a job over the weekend was giving me some trouble because of putting a maroon over a print-flash or print-flash-print-flash underbase... I would have preferred 3 screens but you know manual if you can use just the base and the color then yeah.. also I wouldn't think to underbase a maroon but I guess that can be common it depends on client/type of item, for this school mascot print it was underbased... I choked extra to give me room on the 2-hits base, and also found push-pull on the maroon, still needed 2 hits to cover the base without looking a bit magenta, but the push-pull and switch-up helped the registration to at least shift in all directions, giving good trapping over the base.... but once I realized I had to get the flash and cool-down to work in the right way for the maroon to not keep mixing or picking up on the white... I then realized with some faster strokes that this was a major factor somehow... really helping perhaps to not let the ink-in-mesh mix-up with the previous ink on the shirt, so whether flashed or wet-on-wet probably squeegee speed vs pressure plays a big role in quality of layering/blending...) so I switched up especially after reading this thread about the automatics, to way-faster speeds in my pull or push stroke, and I can only attest to my own experience with variables at the shop I'm working at, it has improved the quality first and foremost, the variables seem to work together better (more predictable / consistent) and of course the best part is it helps speed up my printing timing also, very important being manual and the only one doing the print job usually.
Thanks, peace it has been a fun day.... (except when I realized my "effective" flash area is not quite the full dimension of the flash area, and was why the damn 2-color print today was smearing and picking up near the top and bottom of the design. even with the fast strokes, even though I checked to be sure... it is like well I gotta let it flash longer so it really gets to those parts on the edge area, probably some sort of logarithmic fall-off curve in the heat on the sides because not bouncing back reflecting off the pallet and back, on the sides it can dissipate much more so essentially the "effective" flash area is smaller than what I thought I could get (like 14 x 14) - really probably gotta keep the design to 13 x 13 for now max... or less, I was flashing longer and started working better, but I think it would mean I was also flashing the middle area of the print too much probably, also having to flash longer cuts down production time, those seconds add up. So yeah it was still a fun day, I must love creative-problem-solving, trouble-shooting, and putting out fires (but hopefully not the real ones which I might cause with the FOP (Flash-Over-Pallet) ratio. :P
-Jeff
-
Love this Thread, keep it going. I for sure am a low information contributor on this subject, BUT I will have to say Sonny/PF did save my BUTT by selling me some double bevel squeegee they work BUT take some work to dial in.
-
Warm pallets when setting pressure, angle, speed etc is much more important when printing on auto.
I tend to set the job up, load screens with plasti, flood it and turn machine to warm up mode or the equivalent.
When pallets are warm the ink has also usually warmed sFrom being flooded over the pallets.
Helps big time if your a bit slack on stirring and cbf cleaning that drill bit.
-
May I offer a quick read? I don't know how to do a link, so you're on your own to dig it up. October 2011 Printwear Magazine. Article is "Orchestrating The Variables" by some guy named Joe Clarke. A good amount of information, but what you should look at is the chart called "Wet and Dry Artifacts" Per Joe's style, more information than most of us can comprehend, but a lot of helpful information none the less.
-
Link for bimm- http://printwearmag.com/article/screen-printing/orchestrating-variables (http://printwearmag.com/article/screen-printing/orchestrating-variables)
-
May I offer a quick read? I don't know how to do a link, so you're on your own to dig it up. October 2011 Printwear Magazine. Article is "Orchestrating The Variables" by some guy named Joe Clarke. A good amount of information, but what you should look at is the chart called "Wet and Dry Artifacts" Per Joe's style, more information than most of us can comprehend, but a lot of helpful information none the less.
AWESOME!!
I'll take care of that link for you... here is a little bit for us nerds to drool over. :)
http://printwearmag.com/articleauthors/joe-clarke (http://printwearmag.com/articleauthors/joe-clarke)
All of Joe's articles. :)
*edit* looks like Orion already partially got to it before me!
-
Side note.
We were printing a 50/50 job yesterday/today for a client. We ran the Navy's yesterday and used Rutland Snap white... it's what we had, Ughh... that stuff is gross, we hate it. BUT, we made it work and got a REALLY nice print out of it.
Came back today to do the Sport Grey's... couldn't get it to print worth a damn! Finally my guy said, I'm about to just throw Meteor white in that b!tch and get it done! I said, wait... why not? You don't really need to worry about sport grey bleeding.
He loaded the screen up and poof... so beautiful.
I know it's been discussed but MAN, Meteor white takes virtually no stirring, right out of the bucket and looks GREAT, and prints even better! We don't print a million miles an hour, and I know Collin suggested that once it really gets flowing on an auto it wasn't working for him, but for us it's been like magic.
We don't even know what this "stirring" is about when you guys talk about it. ;)
-
May I offer a quick read? I don't know how to do a link, so you're on your own to dig it up. October 2011 Printwear Magazine. Article is "Orchestrating The Variables" by some guy named Joe Clarke. A good amount of information, but what you should look at is the chart called "Wet and Dry Artifacts" Per Joe's style, more information than most of us can comprehend, but a lot of helpful information none the less.
AWESOME!!
I'll take care of that link for you... here is a little bit for us nerds to drool over. :)
[url]http://printwearmag.com/articleauthors/joe-clarke[/url] ([url]http://printwearmag.com/articleauthors/joe-clarke[/url])
All of Joe's articles. :)
*edit* looks like Orion already partially got to it before me!
Great articles. Thoroughly enjoyed that last hours reading.