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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: sqslabs on October 01, 2014, 11:06:22 AM
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I've had some S-Mesh statics in production for a bit now, and have lost some along the way but chalked it up to my own mishandling. I had noticed early on that the glue wasn't holding in certain areas of the frames but didn't think much of it, and used Polyken tape on a couple just in case. Then the other day one popped with the Polyken on it, and I noticed it looked like it was a result of the glue giving way. Once I went back through the older ones, I saw that the majority of them looked like they had also failed as a result of the glue. None of this is happening on press, but while the screens are sitting waiting to be reclaimed, coated, etc. I've attached some photos for reference.
I've never had this happen with any other static frames, and just want to make sure I'm not doing anything wrong here to cause this. Is there a possibility that the dip tank could be breaking down the glue? Anyone else having similar issues? These frames are 150 and 225.
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Ugh... let's hope that's a isolated thing, just put 42 of these into production.
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i have about 30 frames that have done this. Not s-mesh though. I finally figured out that it was the back clamps on my manual that would nick the edge of the mesh and that would eventually cause it to release from there. Just started building up my inventory of s-mesh static and have had two let go. One because I accidentally hit it up against a sharp edge that caused a small hole near the center and it ripped after about 5 minutes. The other was due to the back clamp on the manual when I was printing tags and sliding the screen over for each size and not having taped the edge. Going to send out 20 of my static's to get remeshed with s-mesh, hopefully I can be more careful. I am hurting bad in the screen dept. Used to have about 50 screens and now down to about 15 which royally sucks.
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Some chemicals are not great with some glues.
let's get a chem guy here to spell it out accurately.
I don't believe that the switch to S mesh is an issue.
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Some chemicals and not great with some glues.
let's get a chem guy here to spell it out accurately.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well. Here's the chemistry I've used over the course of using these screens:
Dip Tank - CCI Gemzyme / Franmar One Step Clear
Screen Wash - Franmar Bean-e-doo
Haze Remover - ICC 858
Degreaser - Franmar D-Grease
I also realize the glue coming off could very well be a side effect of mishandling and the glue being weak and going along for the ride when the screens popped. So in that case, the screens would have popped either way. But if there's a way to give the ones I have left a bit more life, I'd be willing to make a change in chemistry to do so.
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How long does the haze remover dwell on the screen? Using 701, if I let it sit for more than a minute, it could soften the mesh adhesive on some frames.
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the glue used to hold the mesh is a cryo type, think crazy glue and an activator is used to harden it quickly, if whoever is making the frames (think young 20's kid making 10-11 bucks an hour) is using to much activator then the glue gets brittle and will just pull away after some time.
I'm not sure what it was, but a decal shop I worked in used some type of double sided tape that even after months of use, was a PIA to remove the old mesh before we sent them out for re-mesh.
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I also realize the glue coming off could very well be a side effect of mishandling and the glue being weak and going along for the ride when the screens popped. So in that case, the screens would have popped either way. But if there's a way to give the ones I have left a bit more life, I'd be willing to make a change in chemistry to do so.
The kind of failures that I see due to chemical incompatibility, and/or age, look more like your top picture. Intact mesh suddenly losing tension as it breaks away from one end. Often happens to me as they are sitting in the sun, so I'm pretty sure that heat hastens the effect.
And John, I believe that there are two different types of glue in use.
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I've noticed a rough edge to the s-mesh static's at the edge of the frame where the glue overlaps the open mesh. Not sure if that is an issue or not, doubt it, just my observation
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Any statics we have left we had started using Melray to re-stretch. After the glue hardens, the coat the glued area with a lacquer so this issue never happens, never pop loose in the sun, and that glued area can take a beating in reclaiming and the lacquer coating protects the glue and the glued mesh. I haven't used Spot Color supply yet, but I think they do that too. I have a load to get re-done and will check with Scott over there to see if they do that. Tubelite dose no protective coating and this happens to their re stretches pretty fast.
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How long does the haze remover dwell on the screen? Using 701, if I let it sit for more than a minute, it could soften the mesh adhesive on some frames.
I let the haze remover sit while I pull the next screen out of the dip tank and set it up to drip the liquid back into the tank.. 20-30 seconds max. And its only in the image area of the frame and not really near the edges..
Any statics we have left we had started using Melray to re-stretch. After the glue hardens, the coat the glued area with a lacquer so this issue never happens, never pop loose in the sun, and that glued area can take a beating in reclaiming and the lacquer coating protects the glue and the glued mesh.
I have Melray statics that are years old and have never had any issues with them either. Top notch screens for sure.
Thanks for the feedback everyone. For those who do have the same screens, is the glue green on yours as well?
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You should be able to get the glue type information from the screen people.
Then, you could check on chemical compatibility issues with the chem company techs.
A few years back, CCI listed a dozen seemingly similar cleaning products, with some pointed out as not being good with certain glued frames.
They have since pared down their selection, but I'm sure still have similar information available, as I'm also sure other chem manufacturers would as well.
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I haven't had any of mine release like the first images yet, but I have had a few pop like your last image, right along the interior edge of the frame. Those popped over a hot weekend, no emulsion on them and freshly reclaimed. Not sure if the heat caused it, but it seems like it played a role. I have around 30-40 of these now and use each one a couple times a week recently. They have held up very well as far as the glue is concerned.
I have had about 5 of my xenon frames release like this over the past few years though.
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My money is that the glue is 2 part cyanoacrylate. Fast but not as good as laquer based adhesives.
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I have around 30 s mesh statics in production and most of them look like these..... Glue is failing on them... In my shop we do not use any haze remover at all and our chemicals are pretty tame so I have a feeling it's more or less a problem with the process and/or glue they are using..... We beat up our screens pretty good but I have some other statics that have years of printing on them without the glue failing like these. S mesh statics do not look like the hot ticket in MY shop, I prefer our newmans with s mesh on them :P
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With everything said, yes bad glue is one cause and then there is how tight the screen are, I don't have any S mesh but I know if they are jacked up around 25n to 30n you can count on the letting go sooner. S mesh is a single part thread correct instead of a weaved thread IMO the weave will hold the glue way better than the single thread, maybe 18 to 21 newtons is better for static S mesh and I know some of you guys think 18n to 20n is unthinkable, but your screens will last alot longer than a few months unless that's all you need them for.
darryl
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With everything said, yes bad glue is one cause and then there is how tight the screen are, I don't have any S mesh but I know if they are jacked up around 25n to 30n you can count on the letting go sooner. S mesh is a single part thread correct instead of a weaved thread IMO the weave will hold the glue way better than the single thread, maybe 18 to 21 newtons is better for static S mesh and I know some of you guys think 18n to 20n is unthinkable, but your screens will last alot longer than a few months unless that's all you need them for.
darryl
The best part with S mesh, D, is that you don't need it to be cranked up to those tight tensions. I have a bunch of S mesh I've put in play on Newmans here, "none" of them have popped. I did exactly what Shur loc told me to do, and they are really nice, ink falls right through them. If you try to go above 30 with those, pop goes the s mesh =)!!!
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I think it might be a batch issue. I haven't see this bad of a problem in our shop but, I do have a few with the edge curling on it. But out of the 60 or so "S" mesh we have in production I don't think this is a normal thing.
Murphy37
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I have around 30 s mesh statics in production and most of them look like these..... Glue is failing on them... In my shop we do not use any haze remover at all and our chemicals are pretty tame so I have a feeling it's more or less a problem with the process and/or glue they are using..... We beat up our screens pretty good but I have some other statics that have years of printing on them without the glue failing like these. S mesh statics do not look like the hot ticket in MY shop, I prefer our newmans with s mesh on them :P
Good (and bad) to hear I'm not the only one with these issues. I'm shooting for my shop to be running 90% rollers by the end of October, so I'll be keeping my s-mesh on those from here on out as well. I'd think Murakami may want to look into the issue though, as for those who don't realize its the glue it can only add to the "fragile" hype and keep shops away from the mesh in general.
With everything said, yes bad glue is one cause and then there is how tight the screen are, I don't have any S mesh but I know if they are jacked up around 25n to 30n you can count on the letting go sooner. S mesh is a single part thread correct instead of a weaved thread IMO the weave will hold the glue way better than the single thread, maybe 18 to 21 newtons is better for static S mesh and I know some of you guys think 18n to 20n is unthinkable, but your screens will last alot longer than a few months unless that's all you need them for.
All of the s-mesh statics that I have settled at 20n on the dot, so they definitely weren't stretched beyond their limits. Interesting thought on the thread itself though. I was speaking with someone else earlier today who also mentioned the fact that the thin thread would offer less area to glue in general. More open area = Less surface area.
ink falls right through them
This is about the most spot-on description of s-mesh that I've read yet. ;D
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For S Mesh stretched at Murakami we use a 2 part polyurethane glue, not super glue or cyanolates. The reason is super glue can create a very sharp edge and will cut the mesh on the inside edge. If you see a release of mesh from the frame and you purchased from Murakami or one of our dealers, contact me directly. Whether you bought them from a dealer or us.
Alan
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For S Mesh stretched at Murakami we use a 2 part polyurethane glue, not super glue or cyanolates. The reason is super glue can create a very sharp edge and will cut the mesh on the inside edge. If you see a release of mesh from the frame and you purchased from Murakami or one of our dealers, contact me directly. Whether you bought them from a dealer or us.
Alan
Alan I was just about to say that Alan from MURAKAMI told us to use polyurethane glue. We at Spot Color Supply use the polyurethane glue on s-mesh.
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@Alan, if a company sells and stretches your mesh, do you guys hold them to a particular standard?
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For S Mesh stretched at Murakami we use a 2 part polyurethane glue, not super glue or cyanolates. The reason is super glue can create a very sharp edge and will cut the mesh on the inside edge. If you see a release of mesh from the frame and you purchased from Murakami or one of our dealers, contact me directly. Whether you bought them from a dealer or us.
Alan
Thanks Alan.........I knew that was going on. The cyanoacrylate glue is indeed inferior
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For S Mesh stretched at Murakami we use a 2 part polyurethane glue, not super glue or cyanolates. The reason is super glue can create a very sharp edge and will cut the mesh on the inside edge. If you see a release of mesh from the frame and you purchased from Murakami or one of our dealers, contact me directly. Whether you bought them from a dealer or us.
Alan
We distribute these frames; so if this is happening with any of the Murakami frames purchased from me at River City please feel free to contact me as well. I will be working closely with Al on this to get this issue resolved.
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We are conducting tests on dip tanks and haze removers from several suppliers. Any info on what is used in dip tanks in your shop helps us test here. In some cases the frames may not have had enough texture on the metal and caused the release. Also good ideas on the surface area of the mesh, vs open area. Tension level is always subjective, some like a lot of tension, some less. I would agree that running at 18-20 newtons will preserve the mesh and due to the low elongation threads it will still hold excellent register. What I have seen in shops is presses may be set up for low tension screens and when a high tension S mesh screen is introduced the off contact is not adjusted down from the high off contact needed for low tension screens. This occurs south of the border more than here, but setting up a balanced set of screens with similar tensions, may not be exactly the same and produces better results from job to job press performance.
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Scott, haven't forgotten about you brother, I have a batch of frames to send you and re-up on some other stuff, Just haven't gotten a minute to breathe. If I don't get to it the week, I'll put it together over the weekend and get to you Monday. I love the S mesh!!!!
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@Alan, if a company sells and stretches your mesh, do you guys hold them to a particular standard?
This is a good question since we have little control over their stretching methods. We provide mesh tension recommendations but depending on equipment and handling they may choose to go to a lower tension. The best bet is to check out the mesh guide:
http://murakamiscreen.com/smartmesh/mesh-chart-and-tension-guide/ (http://murakamiscreen.com/smartmesh/mesh-chart-and-tension-guide/)
Click on the PDF version for easier viewing. Look up a mesh count: ex 150/48, far right column will give recommended tension levels. For textile shops use a tension halfway in the range. For 150/48 18-28n I start the tension at 24-25 and on cut out hit 22n which is safe workable tension for a textile shop. The type of stretching machine, the frame, and environment all play a part in how high the tension can be taken.
One trick I have seen recently and used is to take a 1/2 or 3/4 inch masking tape strip and wrap it around the inside of the Newman Channel to cover the inside edge where the mesh wraps around. This helps cover dents and burrs on banged up Newmans and offers a softer edge that protects the thin threads.
Alan
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One trick I have seen recently and used is to take a 1/2 or 3/4 inch masking tape strip and wrap it around the inside of the Newman Channel to cover the inside edge where the mesh wraps around. This helps cover dents and burrs on banged up Newmans and offers a softer edge that protects the thin threads.
Alan
Al - is there an issue with masking tape residue or the tape coming loose during reclaim? Maybe the yellow newman tape would be better? Any thoughts? That's not a bad idea and I might start doing that.
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Since it is pinched between stretched mesh and the roller it is held in place pretty good by the tension of the screen. I haven't had a chance to evaluate in long use, but as long as mesh is on it, I havent' seen it release. Yes there are other tapes that would really hold better. The masking tape folds nicely around the edge and has some softness that seems to help. Take 3/4", put on roller first and press down on area it meets roller with about 1/3 of the tape hanging over the channel. Then with a credit card and left hand you can press the tape up and under the lip of the channel. Avoid creases and keep smooth by helping guide the mesh with the free hand thumb while the other hand and credit card press it around and underneath the inside edge of the channel. You can also fold the mesh under and put a layer underneath to have a double layer of mesh on under the locking strip for a similar effect, only for fine mesh counts! Not advisable under 200 tpi. Of the two the tape is easier IMO>
Al
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I just stretched up about 30 frames with murakami s mesh using the masking tape along the channel suggestion from Al..... After a couple weeks I'll let you guys know how the tape is holding up..... I know in the past I have always popped a few screens here and there while stretching because of a slight burr or whatever right along the locking stripe channel and with this tape method we didn't lose any during stretching..... So far so good but the chemicals will tell all
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Thanks for the feedback everyone. Look forward to seeing the results of the masking tape trick in production. Masking tape just seems the easiest to fold over and under the interior channel edge using a credit card to press underneath.
Al
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Since it is pinched between stretched mesh and the roller it is held in place pretty good by the tension of the screen. I haven't had a chance to evaluate in long use, but as long as mesh is on it, I havent' seen it release. Yes there are other tapes that would really hold better. The masking tape folds nicely around the edge and has some softness that seems to help. Take 3/4", put on roller first and press down on area it meets roller with about 1/3 of the tape hanging over the channel. Then with a credit card and left hand you can press the tape up and under the lip of the channel. Avoid creases and keep smooth by helping guide the mesh with the free hand thumb while the other hand and credit card press it around and underneath the inside edge of the channel. You can also fold the mesh under and put a layer underneath to have a double layer of mesh on under the locking strip for a similar effect, only for fine mesh counts! Not advisable under 200 tpi. Of the two the tape is easier IMO>
Al
Can we get a video of this?
pierre
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I will get one going. We are up against SGIA show deadlines, but I'll see what I can do.
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I will get one going. We are up against SGIA show deadlines, but I'll see what I can do.
after the show would be fine! Are you going to be in the booth? I can stop by and say Hi!
pierre
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Yes I will be at the show, booth #3690. Stop on by, we have some unique emulsions that are being released for those printing High Solids Acrylics, Water base and Discharge.
See you there.
Al
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Yes I will be at the show, booth #3690. Stop on by, we have some unique emulsions that are being released for those printing High Solids Acrylics, Water base and Discharge.
See you there.
Al
would you be open to coming to the KPI20 meeting and giving as a quick overview of what's going on? We have our meeting on location the day before the show opens. I know you'll be busy setting up the booth, but something like 45 min to an hour just to let us know what you are working on and where do you see the industry going.
pierre
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Yes I think I am scheduled to attend, this is with SGIA educational committee?
Al