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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: ericheartsu on October 24, 2014, 12:04:57 PM
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So after using our i-image and our tri lock for a little less than a month, we still haven't nailed the no micro set up. Everything is always really close, but still takes about 10-20 mins to get perfect.
What tips can you guys share for using the tri lock and the I-image together? Other than making sure all three corners are very snug against the i-image pusher frame corners?
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same problem here still...no i-image..just the tri loc....ive yet to set up a multi color job and it not have to be micro'ed on more than one color and like you im still in the 20 minute set up range for a multi color design. I print my films out on either an oyo imagesetter or an epson 3000. I have an 8/8 chameleon with side/air clamps...and nuarc msp3140 vacuum top exposure unit....so all premium pieces of equipment...and for the life of me i have yet to figure out why in two years i have yet to get spot on reg's.
(not trying to hi-jack your thread with my non i-image problem....sorry..but i want to get the tri loc comment in there..maybe someone will see it that can help me also)
I responded to similar post about a month ago and the feedback i got was, there was one thing i was NOT doing, and that was taping the back of the film to the carrier sheets and I started doing that but still no luck (everything else i was doing was exact, text book procedure).......I know this has no bearing on you since you have the i-image but im responding in more of the tri loc side of things....If a tri loc can be recalibrate somehow by M&R id gladly send it to them to be recalibrated.
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I just finished my diy triloc pallet with my inverted FPU setup (similar to Alan's) and my first two 4 color and 5 color jobs required no micros on my hand clamped kruzer...
I used a loupe when positioning the films, and I held the frames in place with an iron grip while clamping them into the press. My press is also very accurately leveled and all frames were the same mesh count and S mesh.
Not sure if you are using different mesh counts or what kind of frames etc, but that can come into play. I know your press is brand new, but is it possible something has shifted a bit and is out of level, or perhaps the frame is shifting slightly when you're hitting the clamp switch?
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something else overlooked I think might be squeegee pressure.
my theory (which I'll get to test next week as we're getting our new press and i-image installed on monday), is that if you change squeegee pressure on static (lower tension?) frames, you'll drag the screen and can pull the image out of registration.
I see this on our Javelin all the time... get a print in perfectly, add some squeegee pressure, and you're out of register.
so that might be something you want to look at as well.
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currently as i'm typing this my press op is working on a 5 color print. white base, 4 color highlights, pretty standard butt registration spot colors.
all of our frames are between 28 and 32 newtons, and 3 of the 5 are on rollers, with the other 2 being some statics (these are actually at 22n) we had lying around. We use smiling jack squeegees, and have them straight up and down, with pressure around 35psi on each head.
We are thinking this job the base was possibly not put in our i-image correctly, but i'm not 100% on that.
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That happens to me when I print manually as well. A white base may take more pressure than the black for example, and I will have to micro the white screen toward me a touch to register properly.
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too much squeegee pressure with a dry squeegee no chance, I personally never touch the triloc pallet on the press. I'm not at 100% but pretty close I can set some up with no micro other times not as lucky
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are the rollers all lined up and the statics not? That would be a pretty clear reason for a registration issue. I'm not familiar with the i-image, but doesn't it basically have a triloc style jig with spring pins pushing the frame onto the stops?
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I just finished my diy triloc pallet with my inverted FPU setup (similar to Alan's) and my first two 4 color and 5 color jobs required no micros on my hand clamped kruzer...
I used a loupe when positioning the films, and I held the frames in place with an iron grip while clamping them into the press. My press is also very accurately leveled and all frames were the same mesh count and S mesh.
Not sure if you are using different mesh counts or what kind of frames etc, but that can come into play. I know your press is brand new, but is it possible something has shifted a bit and is out of level, or perhaps the frame is shifting slightly when you're hitting the clamp switch?
lets see a pic of how you did it
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I just finished my diy triloc pallet with my inverted FPU setup (similar to Alan's) and my first two 4 color and 5 color jobs required no micros on my hand clamped kruzer...
I used a loupe when positioning the films, and I held the frames in place with an iron grip while clamping them into the press. My press is also very accurately leveled and all frames were the same mesh count and S mesh.
Not sure if you are using different mesh counts or what kind of frames etc, but that can come into play. I know your press is brand new, but is it possible something has shifted a bit and is out of level, or perhaps the frame is shifting slightly when you're hitting the clamp switch?
lets see a pic of how you did it
I've got two jobs I'm finishing right now and I'll take some pics, maybe even a video if I'm feeling fancy :D
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If everything is being done correctly leading up to locking the screens down then I am confident the issue is at the press. I have early on really investigated where an image lost registration, checking films screen shifting etc. What I find is it is very easy for the screen to shift just enough on lock down to cause slight reg issues. With our Tri-loc we are never out of reg side to side but always up and down. Most times I can put the palette jig back on the press and double check the screens and usually find one shifted slightly forward when locking down. With enough diligence you should be able to find where shifting is occurring, this is in no way saying Tri-loc is alright dead on but it should be dead on or close enough every time to warrant nothing but a slight micro.
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I just finished my diy triloc pallet with my inverted FPU setup (similar to Alan's) and my first two 4 color and 5 color jobs required no micros on my hand clamped kruzer...
I used a loupe when positioning the films, and I held the frames in place with an iron grip while clamping them into the press. My press is also very accurately leveled and all frames were the same mesh count and S mesh.
Not sure if you are using different mesh counts or what kind of frames etc, but that can come into play. I know your press is brand new, but is it possible something has shifted a bit and is out of level, or perhaps the frame is shifting slightly when you're hitting the clamp switch?
Fancy's good :D
lets see a pic of how you did it
I've got two jobs I'm finishing right now and I'll take some pics, maybe even a video if I'm feeling fancy :D
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How do you spin the carousel when moving the jig from head to head? If you spin it by pushing or pulling the jig, you can move it slightly out of registration for each head.
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Hi All..
Great conversation.
We had the privilege of having Lon/Graphic Elephants on site for a week a month or so back. One of the things
that we covered was a complete tri-loc re-training for all my guys.
Things like not touching the jig when registering is huge. Spin the wheel by pushing a pallet instead.
One really big thing was how much pressure the person registering uses when holding the screens in placing before locking the frames. To much 'pulling' on the screen can create issues. Its best to have the same person tri loc all the screens, as opposed to two people each doing a few screens. Consistency is key.
Even throwing the locking switches one at a time , a opposed to both at the same time, can make a difference. Again, all in the method.
However, even with some great hands - there is always the human element that can create issues.
I love tri-loc. It gets us close most of the time, but we still find our selves chasing colors sometimes when trying to register jobs.
John
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I have an employee that struggled for more than a few years trying to get the "dead on" print with a tri-loc set up. She was never successful...until she truly watched me set a few jobs up...then the light went on...she was pulling really hard on the frame to pull it into the stop blocks on the jig. So much so that she was able to move the jig. When she started using a soft touch on the set up she too was able to get the jobs locked in and printed without micro on most jobs.
We use just enough pressure to make contact on the three blocks and nothing more.
Best of luck.
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So many things can affect it. Press calibrated? Good screens/fairly uniform tensions? Flat screens? Correct pressures? Too many for me to lisrt, but a few I hadn't seen. I'm sure Eric will get it
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I have an employee that struggled for more than a few years trying to get the "dead on" print with a tri-loc set up. She was never successful...until she truly watched me set a few jobs up...then the light went on...she was pulling really hard on the frame to pull it into the stop blocks on the jig. So much so that she was able to move the jig. When she started using a soft touch on the set up she too was able to get the jobs locked in and printed without micro on most jobs.
We use just enough pressure to make contact on the three blocks and nothing more.
Best of luck.
hhhmmmmm....u know....that may be my issue....I use static aluminum frames...I make sure all 3 blocks are touching solid...so much so when I lift the screen from the jig there is a slight bit of resistance.....if i DON'T feel the resistance on pulling up the screen from the jig I will re-set it in the jig..because in my mind if i don't feel resistance that means the frame is not notching the blocks as much as i want..maybe on the pull up out of snug position i am moving the screen every so slightly in the clamps.....maybe im screwing myself by going for the "overly snug" feel....next job I wont go for the snug jig feel........you know, if that frame slips right up with no resistance i think im not doing right.....but maybe all along i have been doing it wrong.
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I just spent the weekend re-leveling the press and that solved a lot of my problems. It helped even more when I stopped pulling so hard against the frames as well as flipping slowly 1 switch at a time. I'd say I'm about 85 percent on.
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a very often overlooked issue with tri loc and home made versions of reg systems is the light table.
The vacuum blanket can draw down and move the frame. this is avoided by placing fabric or plastic sheet between the blanket and frame to allow some slip.
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True, but in this case, I believe Eric is CTS, so a non issue with blanket. But worth noting for others
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One thing we're doing is replacing all out pallet bracket levers. If yours is like ours, we have some that don't lock as tight as others and I'm convinced that after several years of use, they just wear down and don't lock very well, thus you might be able to more easily shift the Tri-Lock pallet when setting up screens. You need that baby to be locked in solid. I just bought 40 new ones and they are only $2.50 each. I think that is a great place to start along with the feather touch while locking them in.
The comment above by John is intriguing. Do you indeed throw the locking clamp switches at the same time or one at a time?
Curious minds want to know.
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We throw both switches at the same time. The clamps do make a difference. It also makes a difference how the person locking the screen in is holding it against the stops. A few weeks ago my guys were bitching that there was something wrong with it. I went out and set up 4 3 screen jobs and only touched the micros on 1 screen out of all 4 jobs. Its safe to say its not the Trilock that is the problem.
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We throw both switches at the same time. The clamps do make a difference. It also makes a difference how the person locking the screen in is holding it against the stops. A few weeks ago my guys were bitching that there was something wrong with it. I went out and set up 4 3 screen jobs and only touched the micros on 1 screen out of all 4 jobs. Its safe to say its not the Trilock that is the problem.
What was the difference in what you where doing compared to the other employees that was throwing this off so much?
Murphy37
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For us, there are far too many factors that effect the accuracy of the set up with this system. Just one of the reasons we opted to get a new press with a pin reg system. People kept telling us that the tri-lock works but it never did for us. We experienced many of the issues being discussed here.
Our tri-lock has a thick layer of dust on it.
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I just hired another press op and and it took me less than two jobs to teach him how use the trilock. Another guy I have had for a year cannot trilock to save his life. Sometimes its just the person doing the setup. We use it on everything and the new guy is blown away that it works like it does because he has heard the stories of it not working well. He's a believer now.