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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: SteveS on November 02, 2014, 09:32:24 PM
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Who in Texas is offering the highest tensioned statics? The ones we get from GSG are poor at best. We tested some brand new 230 static 23x31s and got an average of 18-20 newtons. We're hoping to get some solid 25s out of the box. We have a L2 Roller Master and a bunch of M3 frames but we're just too busy and have too much employee turnover to keep all the Newman's stretched and ready.
I was hoping to get someone that is making some good tight statics. Any ideas?
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I'm not sure if you are familiar with S-mesh, but River City Graphics here in Austin sells S-mesh statics that work harden to around 22-20 Newtons. I LOVE them, and I know a lot of others on the forums love them as well. For a static that are unbeatable in my opinion, and due to the nature of the mesh, you can run them at lower tensions without experiencing the skewing/elongation that would happen with standard mesh, partly due to characteristics of the mesh itself and partly because you can run them at lower pressure and still clear ink easily.
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At Xenon we will stretch to a customer's preference.
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if you want regular statics, I would check with Xenon...they do a great job up there...
I will say their prices on frames are a little too high, but for restretches they are a great price.
Brannon at spot color is great as well...and they do s-mesh.
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River City sells our pre-stretched screens which retain tension very well to get the most life out of a static screen.
Alan
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We aren't in the area you are looking for, but we can hit high tensions. Here is a link to our site on re stretches.
http://www.spotcolorsupply.com/Restretch_Frame_Pricing.php (http://www.spotcolorsupply.com/Restretch_Frame_Pricing.php)
Normal tension 21-26
High tension 29-35
This is what we stretch them to. They will settle with less tension.
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We aren't in the area you are looking for, but we can hit high tensions. Here is a link to our site on re stretches.
[url]http://www.spotcolorsupply.com/Restretch_Frame_Pricing.php[/url] ([url]http://www.spotcolorsupply.com/Restretch_Frame_Pricing.php[/url])
Normal tension 21-26
High tension 29-35
This is what we stretch them to. They will settle with less tension.
For restretches, I guess you need our clean aluminum frames? Is having the old glue on them OK or do you need bare 100% aluminum?
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This will be a good time to bring up the fact that a few weeks back, the folks at Spot Color and I went through shipping prices and found that two boxes of six each were a way better deal than one of twelve.
With re-stretches, this is twice as important.
And with most restretches, the shops have a machine that cleans off the old glue and prepares the surface for new.
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Dirkdigger gave spot color supply a good word on new and restretches. I'm about to have them do a batch of Murakami smesh for us.
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We aren't in the area you are looking for, but we can hit high tensions. Here is a link to our site on re stretches.
[url]http://www.spotcolorsupply.com/Restretch_Frame_Pricing.php[/url] ([url]http://www.spotcolorsupply.com/Restretch_Frame_Pricing.php[/url])
Normal tension 21-26
High tension 29-35
This is what we stretch them to. They will settle with less tension.
For restretches, I guess you need our clean aluminum frames? Is having the old glue on them OK or do you need bare 100% aluminum?
All we ask is that you remove the ink from the screen. We use the Grunig G-Prep 320 , it uses a rotary cutting head to strip wood and aluminum frames clean. When we say clean , we mean it! All glue is removed leaving a textured surface. The texture creates a superior surface for glue adhesion.
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So do you actually restretch our screens or just use them as trade in?
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At Xenon we also do not require the mesh to be removed. However we use a proprietary method to remove the mesh without removing any frame material. We do not use any cutting heads. Brannon and Scott are good guys. The only thing I will say about Brent (owner) of Xenon is he has been stretching and making from scratch screens longer than anybody in the US except for 2 others. As to pricing We won't be beat. Example 110 White 23 X 31 is $9.42. A 230 Dyed is $12.04
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IMO the best re-stretchers use the lacquer based glue vs the cyanoacrylate
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What do Spot Color and Xenon use?
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I believe Spot offers either
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So do you actually restretch our screens or just use them as trade in?
We will use your screens.
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What do Spot Color and Xenon use?
We use both glues at Spot Color Supply. We also offer the 2 inch boarder block out for an extra charge.
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This is what the 2 inch boarder looks like.
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We have a L2 Roller Master and a bunch of M3 frames but we're just too busy and have too much employee turnover to keep all the Newman's stretched and ready.
Any ideas?
are you really to busy or are you just saying that
You already have something great and you are choosing to take the easier path that costs twice as much to get a sub par product.
What is the best choice you can make for your business in this situation.
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I'd say that the majority of the shops I visit skip the re-ten step of retens which sort of defeats the purpose. At any rate I've always preferred static metals for water-based decoration. So much easier.
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We have a L2 Roller Master and a bunch of M3 frames but we're just too busy and have too much employee turnover to keep all the Newman's stretched and ready.
Any ideas?
are you really to busy or are you just saying that
You already have something great and you are choosing to take the easier path that costs twice as much to get a sub par product.
What is the best choice you can make for your business in this situation.
Yes, we're just too busy. I bought all that stuff back about 4 years ago and Bill Hood came out and trained us on using bulk mesh. It worked for a while. We had time to spend doing it. We never had the ability to dedicate someone to doing the process. I own the business and the guy that was trained to do it lasted another couple of years before he was dismissed for other reasons unrelated but we just jumped back into statics and never looked back. No problems at all with statics but I don't have the time or patience to regurgitate the lessons of tensioning bulk mesh that I learned back then. We tried to use panels and that went OK for a while but we don't make money if the guys are spending time during the day trying to figure it out.
I won't go into too much more detail but we're not a huge shop and many of us wear different hats. We've had no trouble with statics but I also understand the benefits of tight screens. That's why I am asking the folks here if there is another way without doing it myself.
By the way, the L2 is for sale along with 38 pieces of 23x31 M3s in pristine condition. I have a bunch of panels and bulk mesh as well. Make me an offer. Don't lowball me though, I know better but I am willing to make someone a deal much better than new.
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Then why have YOU not taken on the role..
all I'm reading are excuses to not do something, it's someone else's fault were not using it.
In the time you took to come here, post the question, then keep checking back for answers you could have made a new screen, or three maybe 5
I can make a screen from bolt mesh in 10 minutes.. from a panel it takes me 3 minutes..
If the guys in back can't do that, then who is responsible for training them?
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Then why have YOU not taken on the role..
all I'm reading are excuses to not do something, it's someone else's fault were not using it.
In the time you took to come here, post the question, then keep checking back for answers you could have made a new screen, or three maybe 5
I can make a screen from bolt mesh in 10 minutes.. from a panel it takes me 3 minutes..
If the guys in back can't do that, then who is responsible for training them?
Tone it down a bit fella. You don't know me and I don't know you. I'm glad you are versed with stretching screens. I'm in the business of making money and running a business. I don't owe you any excuse for what I do and how I do it. Your arrogance abounds. Perhaps you didn't mean for it to come across that way, but it did.
I've got several things for sale and I am monitoring and replying and watching these threads.
And if you sit and have time to flame posters on this board all morning and call yourself a production manager, who's managing your production?
Lay off. I'm here for information, not to be hassled.
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so when you're faced with real business questions and topics that have a direct reflection on your ability to make money and run your business..
you take a defensive stance and call me being an arrogant ass who is flaming you.. ok
Have a wonderful day brother!
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Hey man I wouldn't stress about not having time for your Newman's. I have a ton of customers that have bought $1000's of dollars worth of newman and they just sit in a corner or they sell them. Some people just don't have the time or think its worth the time. We can get you your high tensions with out the stress involved in the newmans. We also stretch newman here as well for a fee.
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Hey man I wouldn't stress about not having time for your Newman's. I have a ton of customers that have bought $1000's of dollars worth of newman and they just sit in a corner or they sell them. Some people just don't have the time or think its worth the time. We can get you your high tensions with out the stress involved in the newmans. We also stretch newman here as well for a fee.
Thanks for that Scott. I think I might just do that with my next 12-18 frames and see how the high tension S-Mesh work out for us.
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Hey man I wouldn't stress about not having time for your Newman's. I have a ton of customers that have bought $1000's of dollars worth of newman and they just sit in a corner or they sell them. Some people just don't have the time or think its worth the time. We can get you your high tensions with out the stress involved in the newmans. We also stretch newman here as well for a fee.
Thanks for that Scott. I think I might just do that with my next 12-18 frames and see how the high tension S-Mesh work out for us.
To hit the real high tension we will se standard mesh. IF you want the s-mesh we can get good tension on them just not as high as our standard mesh. S- mesh is not recommended to hit that high of tension.
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There is nothing wrong with either Newman's or statics with Smartmesh. The mesh in both cases is key. Why have Newman's if you don't need to retension? Most large contract print companies with Newman's don't retension and I have visited most shops from here to Argentina. The reason? It takes time, time is money even in countries where the wage is 200 per week. If I was printing a golden squeegee award, sure give me brand new Smartmesh 225/40 with 350/30's with a wax imager on Newmans, but most printers print simple prints. I would say that of over a 100 shops with 8 autos or more that I visit, none re-tension until it is re-meshed. Newmans become expensive statics in these companies.
Back to statics, the subject of this conversation. Why spend $90 for a blank screen when you can get 3 pre-stretched screens with Smartmesh? Most statics don't hold tension, Murakami does hold excellent work tensions that require no re-tension labor. I'd rather have that guy coating and shooting screens or helping on a press.
Consider this John: (you and I just need to have lunch in Oceanside someday and show you something worth trying.) Newmans, I love em too, but see no difference in the print. Opacity, check, try a 150/48. Clarity? 22n gives you all you need really and without having to keep your pallets in perfecft level, speed? As fast as the stock white can shear, Registration?, dot on dot. Labor? far less.
I can set up a sim process print as follows on statics.
(1) 180S Smartmesh Baseplate at 22 newtons
(6) 300HD Smartmesh over prints at 30 newtons
On Newmans
(1) Smartmesh 160T at 35 newtons
(6) Smartmesh 300HD at 30 newtons
Both will look flawless, both will yield identical hourly totals. Both shops will make money,
But the 150/48 may have better opacity, and a softer hand than the 160T by a little bit, but enough for a merchandiser from a major apparel company to notice.
The difference?
Statics: $248.31 for brand new frames with Smartmesh
No Stretch Labor
No Retension Labor
Newmans: 7 new frames x 80.00 approx (they are more quite often) = 560.00
SmartMesh from mesh callouts above: 95.67
Stretch Labor: 30.00
Total: 685.67
Thats a $437.46 Dollar difference to do the same exact job, with brand new screens. I can set up another press with a brand new screens for this savings. This doesn't even take into account that before the Newmans finish stretching the statics can be coated and drying.
The reason head to head print comparison here is equal is not the frame used, it's the mesh. Smartmesh retains tension and holds registration and doesn't need Newmans. Newmans are the state of the art agreed. If I were running a line of clothing and money was no object I might use them. But in shop after shop, the savings is so great in this competitive print world that eliminating labor, saving money on capital investments is important to get the work. If you are of the "High Tension is the only way camp" go with Newmans. If you want to save money and labor costs, statics have significant advantages with Smartmesh. Other meshes not so much. There is a world of difference in mesh. It's worth a look to try one that holds register and retains tension over constant re-tensioning of cheap mesh. John let me know when I can come down, I am sure we can both learn something.
Al
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What Al said. I just don't have the time to post all that. Safe to say some have been "Hoodwinked" when it comes to the subject. Change a variable or two and tension loses most of its importance.
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whoa whoa whoa guys...are you guys essentially saying that different things work for different people and not every shop is the exact same?
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whoa whoa whoa guys...are you guys essentially saying that different things work for different people and not every shop is the exact same?
Blasphemy!!!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
Steve
Good thread actually, despite the tension (little joke there, very little). I was also a little surprised that having the equipment and not using it seemed a little strange, but we've had a second thought or too as well. As long as I've been in it, I always appreciate how others look at, even folks half my age or a quarter of my experience...
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whoa whoa whoa guys...are you guys essentially saying that different things work for different people and not every shop is the exact same?
Blasphemy!!!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
Steve
Good thread actually, despite the tension (little joke there, very little). I was also a little surprised that having the equipment and not using it seemed a little strange, but we've had a second thought or too as well. As long as I've been in it, I always appreciate how others look at, even folks half my age or a quarter of my experience...
I appreciate the sentiment. It really comes down to production for us. We're not printing clothing lines, we're printing a lot of spot color business to business and school stuff. We want to get it on and off press as fast as possible. If we have jobs on the log and have 3 people in my shop, the economics of the matter clearly dictate good, tight as you can statics and keep the carousel spinning. It's really that simple. We have a market that we cater to and no one has issues with our quality, even with crappy static screens with 12-15 newtons tension. However, if I can buy tighter static screens for the same or not much more money, I can't see where you can make an argument in our shop simply based on Alan's information above.
Simply put and rarely remembered...."I want to work on my business, not in my business". I could care less about having "status" as long as I making a bunch of money and rewarding my employees.
A t-shirt is a t-shirt. If the customer is happy and paying their bills, then I am real happy. Don't really care how I got there.
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Whoop Whoop! To the high tension, thick threads and less than optimal open area crew. Some don't know why they need the high tension but damn if they print at 20n with low elongation mesh.
The tension is only high because it's needed to get those fat boy thread, mesh openings to look squared-tangle. High tension does not denote balanced mesh. And because the mesh is stretched so high and improperly, it will loose major newtons during production. Or you can use thin threads which has a low elongation that does not have to be stretched high for the mesh to be balanced- whether statics or retensionables. Request for high tension screens suggests that one is not clear on the role that tension (static and dynamic) play in the process. I agree with jsheridan- that no time excuse is weak.. I want high tension fat boy threads because we're busy.
Sent using Tapatalk
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I appreciate the sentiment. It really comes down to production for us. We're not printing clothing lines, we're printing a lot of spot color business to business and school stuff. We want to get it on and off press as fast as possible. If we have jobs on the log and have 3 people in my shop, the economics of the matter clearly dictate good, tight as you can statics and keep the carousel spinning. It's really that simple. We have a market that we cater to and no one has issues with our quality, even with crappy static screens with 12-15 newtons tension. However, if I can buy tighter static screens for the same or not much more money, I can't see where you can make an argument in our shop simply based on Alan's information above.
Simply put and rarely remembered...."I want to work on my business, not in my business". I could care less about having "status" as long as I making a bunch of money and rewarding my employees.
A t-shirt is a t-shirt. If the customer is happy and paying their bills, then I am real happy. Don't really care how I got there.
I'm not trying to knock your style, but your logic falls apart when you started talking about 12-15n screens. Whether your customers are happy or not, a screen at that tension will affect your "on and off as fast as possible" far beyond what you may think, and in turn greatly affect your bottom line. As anyone who's ever tried to push white ink through a screen in that tension range can attest to, it causes more problems than anything else in the equation.
In short, higher tension = faster setup times, much more consistent prints, and less stressed employees. I know this as someone who made the change and would never look back. The cost of mesh or screens in relation to the time lost using sub-par tension is not even a drop in the bucket.
Just my .02
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We have a L2 Roller Master and a bunch of M3 frames but we're just too busy and have too much employee turnover to keep all the Newman's stretched and ready.
With that table it takes less time to stretch a good frame than it does to order a static. Just sayin.
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Maybe you guys that want to keep hammering home the benefits of stretching your own screens should start your own thread. I just wanted the discussion centered around suppliers of tight new statics or re-stretched frames.
If its such a great deal and investment, I wonder why no one is scooping up my table and frames? At 40% below new for basically brand new stuff, you guys should be falling all over yourselves to drive to H-Town to pick this stuff up.
Just my $0.02.
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Maybe you guys that want to keep hammering home the benefits of stretching your own screens should start your own thread. I just wanted the discussion centered around suppliers of tight new statics or re-stretched frames.
If its such a great deal and investment, I wonder why no one is scooping up my table and frames? At 40% below new for basically brand new stuff, you guys should be falling all over yourselves to drive to H-Town to pick this stuff up.
Just my $0.02.
I was talking about statics. And nobody is jumping on your table and frames because they already have them.
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One thing to consider about s-mesh is that it's fragile. So if your guys aren't particularly careful then you may want to shy away from s-mesh static's. pretty much any snall nick in the mesh and it will rip apart in a few minutes.
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Maybe you guys that want to keep hammering home the benefits of stretching your own screens should start your own thread. I just wanted the discussion centered around suppliers of tight new statics or re-stretched frames.
If its such a great deal and investment, I wonder why no one is scooping up my table and frames? At 40% below new for basically brand new stuff, you guys should be falling all over yourselves to drive to H-Town to pick this stuff up.
Just my $0.02.
I would be but I switched to retens.
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Maybe you guys that want to keep hammering home the benefits of stretching your own screens should start your own thread. I just wanted the discussion centered around suppliers of tight new statics or re-stretched frames.
If its such a great deal and investment, I wonder why no one is scooping up my table and frames? At 40% below new for basically brand new stuff, you guys should be falling all over yourselves to drive to H-Town to pick this stuff up.
Just my $0.02.
I would be but I switched to retens.
of all different shapes and sizes!
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One thing to consider about s-mesh is that it's fragile. So if your guys aren't particularly careful then you may want to shy away from s-mesh static's. pretty much any snall nick in the mesh and it will rip apart in a few minutes.
This is actually a really good point. (maybe appropriate for another thread though) If you have a shop with high turnover you may be pulling your hair out when untrained staff are popping s-mesh screens right and left.
Shurloc EZ frames are great when you have a shop full of green employees that are busting mesh. A new panel takes only a minute to pop back in.
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whoa whoa whoa guys...are you guys essentially saying that different things work for different people and not every shop is the exact same?
No Dave says that
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Yesterday we reflecting on the colorful history of the company. Seventeen years ago when I started here the recently departed consultant had purchased 600 roller frames. She had the (8 person) Screen Department track each screen with historical information such as # impressions, ink used, squeegee information, re-ten history, etc. Commendable? Perhaps. But consider that we are a factory, not a laboratory. One could argue that the unexamined business is not worth running and that statement is certainly true. However, there comes a point where certain tenants are proved successful and not needed to be put under a microscope; at least on a daily basis. I immediately sold all the roller frames and used the money to purchase a stretching table and rigid frames and bolt mesh. The roller frames (especially back then when the corners were over softened) were too troublesome and certainly not necessary for waterbased inks. We have never looked back. The screen making process; while some may deem antiquated, is unbroken and as seamless as it needs to be; with a reduction of six employees. That's what works here, your results may vary.
Now back to work
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Don't really care how I got there.
Thats pretty obvious
I'd wager that Marshall had guys like you in mind when he wrote this
http://atkinsontshirt.com/2014/08/09/lame-excuses-apparel-decorators-make/ (http://atkinsontshirt.com/2014/08/09/lame-excuses-apparel-decorators-make/)
This one hits your.. I don't have the time squarely on the head.
http://atkinsontshirt.com/2013/03/23/feed-the-eagles-starve-the-turkeys/ (http://atkinsontshirt.com/2013/03/23/feed-the-eagles-starve-the-turkeys/)
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Dude, if you only knew all the personal messages I've received about you being such a tool, you'd drop your badgering on this thread. You're only making yourself look bad.
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@jsheridan
Lord knows I have gone astray many times (in forum threads as well.LOL) but let's quite beating your dead retensionable horse in this one.
We all know the plusses of these innovative tools.
This thread, however was about the OP specifically looking for something else, decent quality statics, like it or not, still an industry mainstay.
I suggest that if you have no sources to which to refer him, please start another thread about the pros and cons of various retensionable and user installed panel frames available out there.
There is obviously lots of interest in that subject to warrant it's own spot.
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Don't really care how I got there.
Thats pretty obvious
I'd wager that Marshall had guys like you in mind when he wrote this
I can only comment after reading and knowing some history here that some people are really good at talking the talk and writing (or re-writing the script . The walk part well.......
[url]http://atkinsontshirt.com/2014/08/09/lame-excuses-apparel-decorators-make/[/url] ([url]http://atkinsontshirt.com/2014/08/09/lame-excuses-apparel-decorators-make/[/url])
This one hits your.. I don't have the time squarely on the head.
[url]http://atkinsontshirt.com/2013/03/23/feed-the-eagles-starve-the-turkeys/[/url] ([url]http://atkinsontshirt.com/2013/03/23/feed-the-eagles-starve-the-turkeys/[/url])
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This thread, however was about the OP specifically looking for something else, decent quality statics, like it or not, still an industry mainstay.
I never once spoke of tension levels in this thread. I refereed to the equipment he already has to achieve what he was looking for.
take the L2 roller master you already have, get a couple of 25 x 36 roller frames with bolt or panels, tension that up to your desired level and then glue that to your statics.
You have complete control over the tension, the mesh used and you even save on shipping costs.
there.. is that better.
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Dude, if you only knew all the personal messages I've received about you being such a tool, you'd drop your badgering on this thread. You're only making yourself look bad.
(http://catholic20something.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/hatersgonnahate.jpg)
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Thanks to all those that provided useful information here. Thanks even more to those who enlightened me to the why the thread went off topic. It's pretty clear just based on this thread alone who is here to provide reasonable and intuitive information in regards to a topic's original intent and who is not.
I'll go ahead and lock this thread up and let the mantra of retensionable frames emerge in another universe. I think I've got about all the useful information I need from this one.
And on a closing note and because I just can't help myself, John, you are a real tool. Mire in your self indulged prophetic mantra of whatever you do. If you worked for me and I caught you spending all this time badgering people on a screenprint forum, I'd fire your butt on the spot.