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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: jvanick on November 28, 2014, 09:09:07 AM
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We're nearly ready to go roller frames and get rid of the statics... especially since we've been using more and more s-mesh lately... and have seen the benefits of tri-locking with screens that are equal in tension.
I know the M3's are the cadillac... but what would I lose if we go MZX...
mesh counts in our shop, in case it matters to your suggestions...
24 - we'd probably just keep the handful of statics we have for these...
160S
200 (regular)
225S
305 (regular)
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if you are gonna make the change, I would go with M3, I worked with a mixture of M3 and MZX for years and always hated the MZX. Just seemed flimsy to me. If you are gonna spend the money go ahead and dropped the couple of extra dollars and you wont have any regrets later. My opinion.
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For the S mesh you don't NEED the M3's because you won't be tightening them as high. But it can be annoying to have a mix of M3's and MZX's.
Out of curiosity why are you going with regular mesh for the 200 and 305?
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I have both and like the MZX's much better, due to them being lighter, easier to manage, and cheaper. We use S-Mesh so we don't require the higher tension levels of the M3's.
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305 not sure... thinking of staying regular due to the fragile-ness of the S-mesh
200 not sure either, we may just go all 225S... haven't made that decision just yet.
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I'd second sqslabs. Mzx's are lighter and easier to manage - m3's capabilities are superfluous if you're sticking with s mesh, but if you want to have tension capability you'll never use if you're sticking with a mesh, go right ahead, but you will pay for it. S mesh and mzx's are a perfect marriage. I'd also add to sqslabs that since the frames are lighter and circumference smaller and you're dealing with sensitive mesh, you will increase control when handling them off press. We actually sold our m3's when we went s mesh. Was a good decision for us.
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I have a large mixture of both. I agree mix are lighter, but if you focus on my ultra lights you have the light weight with a much stronger, durable frame. 23 x 31 or larger, mix can feel a lil flemsy. If you have different sets of hands handling frames in your shop, you'll need to make sure everyone is always aware of the flemsiness. I noticed this more when we went cts. When loading an mix frame in a cts, you will feel first hand how these frames can be easily racked if handled harsh. M3-Ultra lights however, are just as light, and superman strong. Better investment overall. Yeah they are a bit more per frame, but worth it. Older M3s are just too darn heavy so I'll never buy used M3s unless they are ultra lights.
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I have a large mixture of both. I agree mix are lighter, but if you focus on my ultra lights you have the light weight with a much stronger, durable frame. 23 x 31 or larger, mix can feel a lil flemsy. If you have different sets of hands handling frames in your shop, you'll need to make sure everyone is always aware of the flemsiness. I noticed this more when we went cts. When loading an mix frame in a cts, you will feel first hand how these frames can be easily racked if handled harsh. M3-Ultra lights however, are just as light, and superman strong. Better investment overall. Yeah they are a bit more per frame, but worth it. Older M3s are just too darn heavy so I'll never buy used M3s unless they are ultra lights.
I wasnt even aware there were 2 different M3s! Good to know.
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The 310s is really delicate you are right. We have some 200s, but my overall favorite s mesh count is a 180s. Love that stuff for DC and WB!
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Yeah, ya have to be careful when buying used m3s. It seems they had lots of changes over the years until they developed the ultralight. There were anodized, some with plastic ends, those suck, got stuck with a few. Some that are as heavy as a boat anchor, and then some that are tin thin walled. M3ul really are the way to invest.
I have a large mixture of both. I agree mix are lighter, but if you focus on my ultra lights you have the light weight with a much stronger, durable frame. 23 x 31 or larger, mix can feel a lil flemsy. If you have different sets of hands handling frames in your shop, you'll need to make sure everyone is always aware of the flemsiness. I noticed this more when we went cts. When loading an mix frame in a cts, you will feel first hand how these frames can be easily racked if handled harsh. M3-Ultra lights however, are just as light, and superman strong. Better investment overall. Yeah they are a bit more per frame, but worth it. Older M3s are just too darn heavy so I'll never buy used M3s unless they are ultra lights.
I wasnt even aware there were 2 different M3s! Good to know.
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You should look at the Shurloc EZ 125's for the mesh selections you listed. Way, WAY easier to deal with than rollers and the mesh panels are idiot proof. They are fast and dead simple. You could literally train anyone on your staff to stretch screens in about 10 minutes. You could actually pull a stranger off the street and train them.
After using M3's, MZX's, (with a Newman table) Diamond Chase, wood and metal statics, you name it... the Shurlocs are the only thing I'd upgrade to until something better comes along.
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The Shurloc's look great, but to get started with the E-Z System and just 6 frames with mesh (S Mesh at 180) would set you back a grand, plus shipping, if I'm adding every thing right. For the same mesh (S Mesh at 180) I could pick up 30 statics from River City. I know the Shurloc's would be the way to go in the long run, but ouch.
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I have some of the sefar trax frames... would much rather go roller frames with the shurlock mesh with the locking strips already sewn in.
I'll be looking for some m3-ul soon.
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The Shurloc's look great, but to get started with the E-Z System and just 6 frames with mesh (S Mesh at 180) would set you back a grand, plus shipping, if I'm adding every thing right. For the same mesh (S Mesh at 180) I could pick up 30 statics from River City. I know the Shurloc's would be the way to go in the long run, but ouch.
:o
If the shipping was next day air...
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Frames are roughly 50 a piece
Tool is 200
panels about $20
So for 6 frames, tool, panels= about $620
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Its late or early depending, but I gave mostly ez frames and a few m3 frames (3 to be exact) and I like my ez frames better. They hold/have much better tension than a static. My only gripe is not being able to tension them that little bit extra, but in fairness I haven't touched my m3s since I've stretched them. My personal opinion is that you will use up the mesh before it needs to be retensioned. This is personal preference and comes from a very small shop, so if you are spinning through screens rapidly, I can't testify to the longevity, but I've been happy so far and highly doubt I'll change down the road.
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Frames are roughly 50 a piece
Tool is 200
panels about $20
So for 6 frames, tool, panels= about $620
You're correct, depending on which tool you purchase. One is $200 and the other $600. I went high. In all their videos they're using the more expensive tool to stretch. Any who, the price is the price and I guess the reason I posted was just the sticker shock of getting started with the system. That's not to say I'd wouldn't make the purchase down the road.
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The Shurloc's look great, but to get started with the E-Z System and just 6 frames with mesh (S Mesh at 180) would set you back a grand, plus shipping, if I'm adding every thing right. For the same mesh (S Mesh at 180) I could pick up 30 statics from River City. I know the Shurloc's would be the way to go in the long run, but ouch.
Whoa... The EZ System is not $1k to get started with... You've got $200 for the tensioning tool, $270 for 6 frames and $120 for 6 panels (average) so you'd be looking at $590... Then I could go 10% off on that one... So your cost would be $530 ish... Sound like a deal? If you want to try one out, email ron@shurloc.com and I'll get one off to you.
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We switched over to Shur Loc a few years back.
The start up cost for the tensioning tool is nominal..
Tons of thin thread options available for panels. The new thinner frames are killer,
and hold great tension with next to no side frame bowing.
Anyways - the Shur Loc system is super versatile. Thumbs up.
Certainly makes life around here easier. Go for it.
John
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We switched over to Shur Loc a few years back.
The start up cost for the tensioning tool is nominal..
Tons of thin thread options available for panels. The new thinner frames are killer,
and hold great tension with next to no side frame bowing.
Anyways - the Shur Loc system is super versatile. Thumbs up.
Certainly makes life around here easier. Go for it.
John
Did you switch from Newmans or statics?
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We were 50/50 between MZX and statics.
I contemplated the jump to M3 across the board, but the lead
time to land frames here was really long.. weeks and weeks long.
and.. landing a roller master was a whole other story.
The guys at Shur Loc are always super friendly and usually get product out
the door in a day or so. We keep ordering new screens in groups of 10-20, and
keep on stock a bunch of panel options. A new screen can be stretched in minutes.
John
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I prefer the MZX over the M3. We only tension up to 35N, and with the thinner threads (225s & 330s) hover around 25N +/-2. IMO the sweat spot is larger with the MZX which helps when printing designs 15"x21" using 23x31" frames.
I am curious how long the EZ frames hold there tension? We currently have a hand full of frames that hold 32-35N that have been in rotation for 2+years being re-tensioned 2-3 times. With EZ frames the way I understand it, can not be re-tensioned. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Chris
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John,
We use MZX's. How do you find they compare as for pro's and con's.
My biggest question/concern would be what Chris said. How does the re-tensioning work on them? Can they be re-tensioned?
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Well, the biggest thing about the Shur Loc are that they basically maintenance free once stretched.
The thinner ones that we have been getting are pre-assembled. No bolts needed.
We never had a roller master table, so tensioning MZX screens was a hassle. Hard
to keep the frames from becoming racked, and harder to use the torque wrench and other tensioning wrench.
I have some work hardened Shur Loc from 2 years ago that, when stretched initially were at like 40 N.
Now they have settled at around 25-30 N. I don't need screens any tighter than that.
For the S - Mesh - just about every screen in our line up is holding steady at 25 N.
Honestly, we get such long life out of our panels, that if for any reason they need replacing... well
its just easier to replace. Never had the need to re-tension the Shur Loc panels once they have been seated
to the frame..
John
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Some statements on this post that; while I know this to be true for so many shops, still puzzle me. Retensionable frames are sold on just that fact: work harden and retension. Yet so many do not, ie whats the point? Don't take this wrong; I've run shops with/without/and both. Just don't have a preference.
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John, what is the initial tension on the S mesh frames? And what do you find them dropping down to?
Also, would it be safe to assume that some screens in your rotation could be 40N and others at 25N?
So the Shur-loc frames are not retensionable? Would this put them more in line with a static that you can re-mesh yourself instead of sending them out to be done?
Tony, I think people like the idea of having the "right tools" in their shop, but (some) do not like the idea of doing the "work" involved.
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Retensionable frames are sold on just that fact: work harden and retension. Yet so many do not, ie whats the point?
This is why Tony.. they never buy the correct tools for the system, and then complain about the system being to difficult to use.
We never had a roller master table, so tensioning screens was a hassle. Hard
to keep the frames from becoming racked, and harder to use the torque wrench and other tensioning wrench.
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^^For once, I agree with you John, but there are also plenty of people who buy the correct tools and don't use them.
I'd say 95% of the printers on here (read: 5 or less employees) would be better served by a good supply house remeshing statics than *any* reten system... whether or not you can actually retension multiple times, or match tensions.
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Just to clarify...
First, the EZ's are retensionable using our retensioning bars (sold in sets for about $15)... We just have more people like John who have just decided to beat the mesh into the ground and then replace it rather than bringing them back up. The bars work well and switch out in about 20 seconds per side.
Second, as far as the correct tools go for rollers, the other John has it right. Get the right tools. That doesn't mean spending a fortune to do it. You can snag the Accelerator X which will stretch 23x31's for $399 (takes about a minute or two to install a panel, tension and lock up) which is quite a discount from a Roller Master. The X also doesn't require any power or air to run - eliminating that expense from the mix as well. The X also holds the frame completely flat, which means almost zero racking and the physical stop pins hold the wrenches in place while you tighten the bolts which further stabilizes the frame.
As far as the initial tensions go, I can get info from David on what they are designed to go to and where they should settle at. Saying "what does an S mesh go to" is like saying every frame should be set to 45N. Murakami designates a tension for each mesh count and we design around that. For example, the 80/71 maxes at 25N and will settle in the low 20's. You're not supposed to bring that back to the max or it will end up breaking on retensioning. The 225/40 maxes at 29N and should settle in the mid 20's.
Something we've seen from internal testing is that as the manufacturers have changed production methods, the data regarding their products is not updated well. Sefar is a great example here as the originally had their PECAP mesh tensioned much differently than their PET1500. They used to give a broad range of 30-48N with the PECAP mesh, but the PET1500 uses a recommended 38N mark for tensioning. Their 110/80 is no different as they used to recommend a range from 32-51N and now recommend just 44N. This is to keep the user from retensioning the mesh so heavily that it breaks down too quickly.
Like I said above, if anyone wants to get some information on the tensions for the EZ frames, I'd be happy to get our testing data over to you. Just shoot me an Email with frame size, mesh counts and manufacturer and I'd be happy to get that to you.
Thanks!
Ron
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Ron, I read something about Hix Retens that made me curious. Did you guys buy that product line from Hix?
If so, are they still available? (They seem pretty simple to me. But Hix doesn't sell them anymore. They were just not popular enough.)
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Yes we did! We purchased the very limited stock they had left and them in the M/A, A and LF series ready to ship out. They had run down their stock and didn't want to go through the expense of creating new dies for the extrusions, so they allowed us to pick up the production of the frames. We've had a long relationship with them and were happy to accommodate their customers by continuing the line as they made it. We didn't add them to our website yet, but when our new site launches, the stock sizes should be listed.
If you want to kick me an email, I can send you over the current 'stock size' pricing. - Ron@shurloc.com
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Shur-Loc... 12/13
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What mesh count are you running and how quick after stretch did you take that?