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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: islandtees on September 04, 2011, 09:24:56 AM
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Im trying to understand some posts I have read that make that claim.
I will give a example and tell me where I am wrong.
I am stetching 6 23 x 31 M3 frames. Im using 3 yards 230 yellow sefar mesh. I get 2 frames per yard.(62" wide mesh) I pay $26.00 per yard. I know Shurloc pays way less than that per yard with volume discount. I have a Newman air stretch table.
I have $78.00 in mesh. The employee wage at $10.00 per hour. Lets say it took him a 2 hours to stretch 6 screens.(which would be insane because it doesnt take 2 hrs on a table to do this) I would be investing $78.00 plus $20.00 for a total of $98.00.
The Shurloc website shows the same panels for $27.14 x 6 would give you $162.84. Lets say labor savings which seems to be the biggest claim,was 30 minutes for $5.00. Im being generous with that labor figure. Total $167.84
$167.84 minus $98.00 is $69.84. Im spending almost $70.00 more after covering material and labor expense. The labor number of 2 hrs is also not even close for stretching 6 frames,so Im giving the panels the benefit of the dought.
So what am I missing. Remember this is only for 6 frames. If we did the example for the 36 I have left to do the numbers would be staggering. Im also using $26.00 per yard mesh. When we buy the bolt the per yard price also drops,again making the gap widen more. If we purchase the cheaper Italian mesh from Sonny the numbers become ridiculous.
In conclusion,I cant see how I save money using the panels.
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Don't forget that time is money too. I use Newmans but my understanding is that panels can be applied much faster. Perhaps that's one panel advantage.
Also, breakage is less common with panels, again saving money.
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Here is an entire thread devoted to this subject.
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php?topic=544.0 (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php?topic=544.0)
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Islandtees: Bottom line, Shurloc panels aren’t for everyone, and from what you’ve posted here it sounds like your shop already has a Newman Roller Master Stretching Table, with an employee or employees who know how to use it. Secondly it sounds like you are processing a fairly high number of Newman Roller frames. Given that you’ve made such a large investment in the Roller Frames and an automatic stretching table I’m going to guess that you also have processes in your shop to keep the frames maintained and stretched at optimum tension levels throughout the life of the mesh.
If this is an accurate description of your shop and the processes that you use, then I’d agree that Shurloc panels are not going to provide a real lot of benefit, and will cost you more money than using bolt mesh. The thing is that a lot of companies don’t have the automatic stretching table and/or the skilled employees to load the fabric and stretch it properly. Because this process is such a hassle for many shops, they also tend to stretch the mesh once and then use it without re-tensioning throughout the life of the mesh. Simply put they use their Roller Frames in exactly the same way that many other printers use static stretch and glue frames.
This is a real shame after they have invested so much in Roller Frames to begin with. These are the companies where Shurloc panels are a great solution as it allows them to achieve high tension frames with properly loaded mesh that can be maintained and re-tensioned throughout its useable life. And, at this point the savings go way beyond just the cost of inserting the mesh into the frame, and extend into the benefits of improved productivity on press, and enhanced print quality.
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pwalsh,
Ok,so Im not crazy. You have described our shop to the T.
In our case the panels are not worth it. That is what I thought but just wanted to be sure I was not missing something.
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Don't forget that time is money too. I use Newmans but my understanding is that panels can be applied much faster. Perhaps that's one panel advantage.
Also, breakage is less common with panels, again saving money.
I took the labor and figured it in with my numbers.
The time is money doesnt work for me with panels. I still come out way ahead with bolt mesh and the table.
Breakage is not a concern since we know how to soften and stretch the screens.
I cant remember the last time a screen poped while stretching.
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Island,
You math is skewed. You can actually get 6 screens out of two yards of mesh. Savings just got better. ;D
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In our scenario the savings is time. I'm the only person that can mesh the frames. We're so busy our 1 employee doesn't have time to do or learn it. So what happens is mesh breaks and frames (which we badly need) sit around waiting to get remeshed.
With the panels, i just throw them on, put it up on the roller master and we're good to go in a few minutes. So if i promise myself to deal with a frame right when it breaks, we have all our frames up and running all the time.
Instead of sitting in a corner waiting for me to come in to work on a saturday and spend all day dealing with it.
Like i said, works great for us. Maybe not for everyone.
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One thing not mentioned here is having ShurLoc make panels from your bolt mesh. I picked up some Sefar mesh on eBay from a guy that was going out of business at a really good price. 156, 195, and 230. Sent the mesh to ShurLoc and they made up panels at about $7.00 each, regardless of mesh count. They also got more panels out of the mesh than I'd have gotten tearing and loading it myself. I won't say its a giveaway, but for me it was very cost effective. I applaud those who have gotten working with bolt mesh down to where they're getting max tension without tearing, but for myself, I've ripped as much out of a bolt than I get loaded successfully and tensioned up towards the high end of the specified tolerances. ShurLoc panels have never failed me, shy of bumping against a sharp corner. JMHO.
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Island,
You math is skewed. You can actually get 6 screens out of two yards of mesh. Savings just got better. ;D
Manual 18 x 20's maybe, not 23x31. You can only get 2 screens per yard for 23x31's
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One thing not mentioned here is having ShurLoc make panels from your bolt mesh. I picked up some Sefar mesh on eBay from a guy that was going out of business at a really good price. 156, 195, and 230. Sent the mesh to ShurLoc and they made up panels at about $7.00 each, regardless of mesh count. They also got more panels out of the mesh than I'd have gotten tearing and loading it myself. I won't say its a giveaway, but for me it was very cost effective. I applaud those who have gotten working with bolt mesh down to where they're getting max tension without tearing, but for myself, I've ripped as much out of a bolt than I get loaded successfully and tensioned up towards the high end of the specified tolerances. ShurLoc panels have never failed me, shy of bumping against a sharp corner. JMHO.
Don’t forget that you can remove the panel and re- insert it (not necessarily with art on the mesh) and switch mesh willy-nilly as you need to per job.
It could also let you postpone or eliminate the reclaiming.... keeping you on press longer.
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Don’t forget that you can remove the panel and re- insert it (not necessarily with art on the mesh) and switch mesh willy-nilly as you need to per job.
It could also let you postpone or eliminate the reclaiming.... keeping you on press longer.
I've done that with some 110 panels I rarely use. Thanks for bringing that feature up.
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Island,
You math is skewed. You can actually get 6 screens out of two yards of mesh. Savings just got better. ;D
Manual 18 x 20's maybe, not 23x31. You can only get 2 screens per yard for 23x31's
I cut my mesh at 24" all the time. I think there is 36" in a yard.
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Our 230 Dyed mesh is 10.50 per yard.
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Our 230 Dyed mesh is 10.50 per yard.
If this mesh is Saati,I would save about $116.00 over the panels using my original figures. Please verify if this is Saati.
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One thing not mentioned here is having ShurLoc make panels from your bolt mesh. I picked up some Sefar mesh on eBay from a guy that was going out of business at a really good price. 156, 195, and 230. Sent the mesh to ShurLoc and they made up panels at about $7.00 each, regardless of mesh count. They also got more panels out of the mesh than I'd have gotten tearing and loading it myself. I won't say its a giveaway, but for me it was very cost effective. I applaud those who have gotten working with bolt mesh down to where they're getting max tension without tearing, but for myself, I've ripped as much out of a bolt than I get loaded successfully and tensioned up towards the high end of the specified tolerances. ShurLoc panels have never failed me, shy of bumping against a sharp corner. JMHO.
Don’t forget that you can remove the panel and re- insert it (not necessarily with art on the mesh) and switch mesh willy-nilly as you need to per job.
It could also let you postpone or eliminate the reclaiming.... keeping you on press longer.
How can this feature save money. You have the labor time needed to remove and reinstall and get back up to correct tension. This also gives a greater chance of tearing the mesh. In our shop this would not work since everything is fast paced and we need screens ready to go.
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Im trying to understand some posts I have read that make that claim.
I will give a example and tell me where I am wrong.
I am stetching 6 23 x 31 M3 frames. Im using 3 yards 230 yellow sefar mesh. I get 2 frames per yard.(62" wide mesh) I pay $26.00 per yard. I know Shurloc pays way less than that per yard with volume discount. I have a Newman air stretch table.
I have $78.00 in mesh. The employee wage at $10.00 per hour. Lets say it took him a 2 hours to stretch 6 screens.(which would be insane because it doesnt take 2 hrs on a table to do this) I would be investing $78.00 plus $20.00 for a total of $98.00.
The Shurloc website shows the same panels for $27.14 x 6 would give you $162.84. Lets say labor savings which seems to be the biggest claim,was 30 minutes for $5.00. Im being generous with that labor figure. Total $167.84
$167.84 minus $98.00 is $69.84. Im spending almost $70.00 more after covering material and labor expense. The labor number of 2 hrs is also not even close for stretching 6 frames,so Im giving the panels the benefit of the dought.
So what am I missing. Remember this is only for 6 frames. If we did the example for the 36 I have left to do the numbers would be staggering. Im also using $26.00 per yard mesh. When we buy the bolt the per yard price also drops,again making the gap widen more. If we purchase the cheaper Italian mesh from Sonny the numbers become ridiculous.
In conclusion,I cant see how I save money using the panels.
Island,
I don't know..you are not looking at all the costs....you say the employee is 10 per hour, but once you add taxes, insurance ect you are more like 16/hr. then you have not taken into account the lost production of not having the screens in rotation.
I am not saying that you are incorrect that shur-locs are not for your company but you still have to take into account ALL aspects of labor when figuring out costs for your screens.
Sam
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Sam, I bet alot us don't really figure the real cost of things we do...we just do it. everything you just pointed out I,ve done it before just to sit down later and find I was way ahead the way I was doing it before, so with that said, does Quick and Easy on the panels make sense for people to use them over cost?
Darryl
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One thing not mentioned here is having ShurLoc make panels from your bolt mesh. I picked up some Sefar mesh on eBay from a guy that was going out of business at a really good price. 156, 195, and 230. Sent the mesh to ShurLoc and they made up panels at about $7.00 each, regardless of mesh count. They also got more panels out of the mesh than I'd have gotten tearing and loading it myself. I won't say its a giveaway, but for me it was very cost effective. I applaud those who have gotten working with bolt mesh down to where they're getting max tension without tearing, but for myself, I've ripped as much out of a bolt than I get loaded successfully and tensioned up towards the high end of the specified tolerances. ShurLoc panels have never failed me, shy of bumping against a sharp corner. JMHO.
Don’t forget that you can remove the panel and re- insert it (not necessarily with art on the mesh) and switch mesh willy-nilly as you need to per job.
It could also let you postpone or eliminate the reclaiming.... keeping you on press longer.
How can this feature save money. You have the labor time needed to remove and reinstall and get back up to correct tension. This also gives a greater chance of tearing the mesh. In our shop this would not work since everything is fast paced and we need screens ready to go.
Small shop, will not work in all applications, idea is to eliminate or postpone constraints to bring actual production to the forefront. Some locations also have issues with reclaiming many do not understand. This also works best with the E-Z frames as tension is predetermined, and changing mesh takes less than 5 min, removal and install, The E-Z takes less time insertion and full tension than inserting mesh on a roller.
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Im trying to understand some posts I have read that make that claim.
I will give a example and tell me where I am wrong.
I am stetching 6 23 x 31 M3 frames. Im using 3 yards 230 yellow sefar mesh. I get 2 frames per yard.(62" wide mesh) I pay $26.00 per yard. I know Shurloc pays way less than that per yard with volume discount. I have a Newman air stretch table.
I have $78.00 in mesh. The employee wage at $10.00 per hour. Lets say it took him a 2 hours to stretch 6 screens.(which would be insane because it doesnt take 2 hrs on a table to do this) I would be investing $78.00 plus $20.00 for a total of $98.00.
The Shurloc website shows the same panels for $27.14 x 6 would give you $162.84. Lets say labor savings which seems to be the biggest claim,was 30 minutes for $5.00. Im being generous with that labor figure. Total $167.84
$167.84 minus $98.00 is $69.84. Im spending almost $70.00 more after covering material and labor expense. The labor number of 2 hrs is also not even close for stretching 6 frames,so Im giving the panels the benefit of the dought.
So what am I missing. Remember this is only for 6 frames. If we did the example for the 36 I have left to do the numbers would be staggering. Im also using $26.00 per yard mesh. When we buy the bolt the per yard price also drops,again making the gap widen more. If we purchase the cheaper Italian mesh from Sonny the numbers become ridiculous.
In conclusion,I cant see how I save money using the panels.
Island,
I don't know..you are not looking at all the costs....you say the employee is 10 per hour, but once you add taxes, insurance ect you are more like 16/hr. then you have not taken into account the lost production of not having the screens in rotation.
I am not saying that you are incorrect that shur-locs are not for your company but you still have to take into account ALL aspects of labor when figuring out costs for your screens.
Sam
Sam,
I wasnt using realistic numbers. My guy can do 6 frames a hr. He is very fast loading mesh,puts them on the machine and brings them right up. So no time is lost with not having screens for production. I was trying to give the panels the benifit of this discussion.
I can pay him $30.00 hr and I still would be ahead with the bolt mesh.
Im saying for my shop no way,no how the panels can save money.
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One thing not mentioned here is having ShurLoc make panels from your bolt mesh. I picked up some Sefar mesh on eBay from a guy that was going out of business at a really good price. 156, 195, and 230. Sent the mesh to ShurLoc and they made up panels at about $7.00 each, regardless of mesh count. They also got more panels out of the mesh than I'd have gotten tearing and loading it myself. I won't say its a giveaway, but for me it was very cost effective. I applaud those who have gotten working with bolt mesh down to where they're getting max tension without tearing, but for myself, I've ripped as much out of a bolt than I get loaded successfully and tensioned up towards the high end of the specified tolerances. ShurLoc panels have never failed me, shy of bumping against a sharp corner. JMHO.
Dont forget that you can remove the panel and re- insert it (not necessarily with art on the mesh) and switch mesh willy-nilly as you need to per job.
It could also let you postpone or eliminate the reclaiming.... keeping you on press longer.
How can this feature save money. You have the labor time needed to remove and reinstall and get back up to correct tension. This also gives a greater chance of tearing the mesh. In our shop this would not work since everything is fast paced and we need screens ready to go.
Small shop, will not work in all applications, idea is to eliminate or postpone constraints to bring actual production to the forefront. Some locations also have issues with reclaiming many do not understand. This also works best with the E-Z frames as tension is predetermined, and changing mesh takes less than 5 min, removal and install, The E-Z takes less time insertion and full tension than inserting mesh on a roller.
The ez would seem to be quick,however this thread was based on 23 x 31 roller frames.
So we would not be able to load and unload that fast. On a regular roller frames I think it would take to much time in a fast moving shop.
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My guy can do 6 frames a hr. He is very fast loading mesh,puts them on the machine and brings them right up. So no time is lost with not having screens for production. I was trying to give the panels the benifit of this discussion.
It all depends on the application, for example the EZ frames new cost a bit less per frame than the rollers, with the EZ and panels you can get six frames up to level three tension in less than 10 min. - I timed it a freshly trained user can load and bring to tension a frame combo in 46 seconds, there are a few that say they can insert mesh almost as fast as a panel - on a roller that takes 5 seconds then add table time...
On a table that would translate to quite a few frames in a hour... with the EZ frame that would be... lets say 40 frames an hour (to be very safe).
To your second post, how long does it take on your table for just the tensioning?
Of course the panels only contribute to the insertion and softening not the tensioning.
In a small shop where one needs to have maximum time on the press - this easily pays for the panels in only a small amount of production time.
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I personally can't come up with a real solid way that the panels could save most shops money, but I can tell you they save a ton of time. That time doesn't really close the gap in the extra cost when it comes to our shop, but I've stretched newmans both ways and I'll probably never use bolt mesh ever again because I have way too many other things that I should be doing than maintaining our screen inventory. I'm the only one on the payroll that can do it with the care and quality that I want so that is why our shop works great with the panels. This is just our shop though, a larger shop, with hundreds of screens in the production rotation at a time, with a dedicated screen guy that does nothing but maintain the screens all day would probably not benefit from panels like we do.
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I've used both. I run a small shop with a bank of about 36 M3s. Here's my take on it:
- Panels are exorbitantly more in terms of materials alone than bolt mesh + the one time cost of lock strips
- You are not saving labor by purchasing panels, you are outsourcing it to shur-loc. The difference of the cost of the panels to bolt mesh/lock strips (over their usable life), per screen, is essentially the cost of that labor from shur-loc. You may find their labor cheaper than training/paying your employees to load from the bolt or perhaps its the other way around.
- Panels provide an extra level of protection due to the way the mesh is mounted into the rails that lock strips cannot provide.
- Panels are made to be operated at a fixed tension with fixed amount of corner softening, bolt mesh is highly adjustable. This is both a pro/con for each method as panels prevent your employees from introducing variance while bolt mesh allows skilled employees to adjust variables.
For my shop, I preferred bolt mesh for high-tension (45+ n/cm), typical thread diameter screens that I personally loaded. I would avoid panels for high-tension printing as you really need the adjustability bolt mesh provides to prevent bowing and optimize the corner softening.
We now use a lot of low-tension (24n/cm), thin thread diameter mesh that any of my 2 shop employees may load and I like the shur-loc panels for this.
I disagree with shur-loc's typical corner softening amount as well as how they trim the corners, but I'm sure they can adjust this for me on our next order. They've been very accommodating thus far.
Doug's point, (I think?), is that in a pinch you can sub out mesh counts in your set of frames and while you lose that labor of loading, tensioning, taping, as well as the cost of the protective tape, you retain the work-hardened mesh and prevent the purchase of more frames. Probably a fairly rare scenario but could be handy.
One last note is that I've found panels to have an intangible benefit in that it just feels more efficient to grab one from the box and load it up. Like Alan, I can't escape the felling that there's other things I ought to be doing at work than foolin' around with mesh (and posting away on internet forums).
Hope this lends some insight.
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Our 230 Dyed mesh is 10.50 per yard.
If this mesh is Saati,I would save about $116.00 over the panels using my original figures. Please verify if this is Saati.
It comes from the same weaver that Saati gets theirs. Xenon buys more mesh than anyone in the nation.
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You are not saving labor by purchasing panels, you are outsourcing it to shur-loc. The difference of the cost of the panels to bolt mesh/lock strips (over their usable life), per screen, is essentially the cost of that labor from shur-loc. You may find their labor cheaper than training/paying your employees to load from the bolt or perhaps its the other way around.
A very logical way to look at the situation, I agree.
Doug's point, (I think?), is that in a pinch you can sub out mesh counts in your set of frames and while you lose that labor of loading, tensioning, taping, as well as the cost of the protective tape, you retain the work-hardened mesh and prevent the purchase of more frames. Probably a fairly rare scenario but could be handy.
Everyone wants to take a situation and make it “general” or “all encompassing” and we are not in an industry that lends itself to this outlook. The 600 plus variables alone are proof of that.
The industry is “product driven” and we will advance in the industry kicking and screaming or willingly adjusting and profiting from that change, the imbedded resistance to change and new ideas in this industry is amazing.
One last note is that I've found panels to have an intangible benefit in that it just feels more efficient to grab one from the box and load it up. Like Alan, I can't escape the felling that there's other things I ought to be doing ...
It is always, how much is your time worth? How you spend it is your own choice.
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Our 230 Dyed mesh is 10.50 per yard.
If this mesh is Saati,I would save about $116.00 over the panels using my original figures. Please verify if this is Saati.
It comes from the same weaver that Saati gets theirs. Xenon buys more mesh than anyone in the nation.
Sonny: I always thought that Saati got thier screen printing and filtration mesh from Saati owned and run facilities.
Are you saying that Xenon is buying thier mesh from Saati, or has Saati outsorced thier mesh production to another supplier?
Also, when you state that Xenon buys more mesh than anyone in the nation, are you referring to all woven mesh, or only polyester mono-filament screen-printing mesh?
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Our 230 Dyed mesh is 10.50 per yard.
If this mesh is Saati,I would save about $116.00 over the panels using my original figures. Please verify if this is Saati.
It comes from the same weaver that Saati gets theirs. Xenon buys more mesh than anyone in the nation.
Peter,
We have 1.5 million in mesh at any one time. I know that we make screens in custom sizes for more industries than just ours. Brent Fisk, the owner has more knowledge than anyone I have met in mesh and how it is used and manufactured. The mesh we use is Italian and as I understand it is like the smart mesh Saati sells.
Sonny: I always thought that Saati got thier screen printing and filtration mesh from Saati owned and run facilities.
Are you saying that Xenon is buying thier mesh from Saati, or has Saati outsorced thier mesh production to another supplier?
Also, when you state that Xenon buys more mesh than anyone in the nation, are you referring to all woven mesh, or only polyester mono-filament screen-printing mesh?
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@islandtees and friends!
Ok, so we let this one take its course before jumping in with a response because it was so much fun to watch, but here's our solution for higher volume shops... Shur-Loc eCon Fabric Panels...
We've had these for some time now (since 2007) with limited availability of mesh from Saati, but recently a deal was struck with Sefar to supply the mesh for a wider variety. The eCon fabric line will set you back $19.50 for that 230 mesh rather than the $27.14 of the premium panel. You get all the same benefits of the original panel, minus the color-coding and mesh selection. Currently we offer most counts from 83/70 to 305/40, but they are subject to mesh availability and stock on hand.
So, enough of our commercial there and back to topic, the eCon mesh panel brings your cost back to $117.00 or about $20 more ($3.50 a frame roughly) than your bolt mesh cost. When you consider wasted mesh, missing threads, warped threads, time to remove locking strips, and overall consistency of the mesh, $3.50 per frame doesn't seem too bad. The other considerations to look at is the cost of locking strips ($75 for 50 feet) that need to be replaced somewhat often, will add about $2 per frame to the cost of using raw mesh.
For 36 frames, we think you are looking at a cost difference closer to $1.50 per frame rather than the $11.50 you see above if you use our eCon fabrics. The B-side mesh panel in a 229/40 has been on our site for quite some time at $18.99 which makes that number above shrink even more.
Overall, we aren't going to sell you a product that doesn't make your shop more efficient - and hopefully cost effective. We try to find the best deals on fabric while maintaining our high standards of quality. Hopefully we can encourage you to take a longer look at the numbers and see if the economy line of mesh is right for you or not. We'd also love to let you try them out if you are interested, just kick us a PM and we will get back to you.
For more information on them: http://shurloc.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=SFS&Category_Code=SL1-PANEL-ECON (http://shurloc.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=SFS&Category_Code=SL1-PANEL-ECON)
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The Shurloc website shows the same panels for $27.14 x 6 would give you $162.84. Lets say labor savings which seems to be the biggest claim,was 30 minutes for $5.00. Im being generous with that labor figure. Total $167.84
$167.84 minus $98.00 is $69.84. Im spending almost $70.00 more after covering material and labor expense. The labor number of 2 hrs is also not even close for stretching 6 frames,so Im giving the panels the benefit of the dought.
So what am I missing. Remember this is only for 6 frames. If we did the example for the 36 I have left to do the numbers would be staggering. Im also using $26.00 per yard mesh. When we buy the bolt the per yard price also drops,again making the gap widen more. If we purchase the cheaper Italian mesh from Sonny the numbers become ridiculous.
In conclusion,I cant see how I save money using the panels.
OK one part of winning profit is reducing costs. The other one is to increase number & quality of prints sold. Is this your skilled employee able to earn you some money? Probably as a printer?
I know in my shop only one of printers has interest & ability to stretch Rollers rather fast with no spoilage... But he earns me more money printing, than he saves stretching mesh.
Boris