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screen printing => Waterbase and Discharge => Topic started by: sqslabs on December 09, 2014, 10:52:17 PM
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Anyone have any experience with it yet? I have a tried and true Matsui red formula that I've been using for years, but if I never have to mix it again, I definitely won't complain.
Looking forward to getting this stuff on press tomorrow.
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very interested, let me know what you think!
pierre
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Named after a friend of mine.
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and mine
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The problem with most PC discharge systems is that (typically) two or more PCs are required to achieve shades in the 185 to 200 range. Some may notice this with plastisol PC systems as well. It appears Gary has convinced his company to do the work for you. My guess is that you can tint/shade with PCs as needed within certain % loads. What would be better? Perhaps warm shade and cool shade versions.
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We have been using it for a couple months. It's a good red but we found it does lean on the fuchsia side a bit as it uses neon pigments. We still use our house formula for a rich red but (Gary) Fox Red is an excellent RFU ink. Just activate and go. We used it on this year's Govathon tees. Navy Tultex 0202. It looked great.
Edit: The White is CCI D-White.
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Maybe it's been answered somewhere else but why is it so hard to mix the reds, oranges and some other colors in WB and discharge. It's a constant struggle even using the the recipe provided to get a good match. With plastisol it's dead nuts on again and again, WB sometimes it's not even close.
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One answer: WB is transparent. It can contain up to 90% water. The more transparent, the more it can fool you. We make different DC bases for different purposes. A lot of formulas call for white PC which can also mud up deep shades. On the Indian Motorcycle Pinup print we used a variety of different bases and activator ratios. Interestingly enough we are currently making all new swatch books. Since we use a hybrid system using different products/manufacturers we can usually hit most colors with three or less ingredients (not including base and activator). The formulas are over a decade old and each time we make new books we look at simplifying the tricky ones.
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Our biggest issue is that the red pigments and the activator do not play well together. We may have it perfect on press and it blows the color out when washed or the hue changes on longer runs turning an orange or pink shade. We have a very good recipe we used for the last month or so. We finally got around to testing the Fox red but it did not wash well, due to too much activator, but with a little tweaking it will work.
Chris
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I'm interested in why there is color fading after washes. This is something we've been investigating lately! How to get the print to remain vibrant after watches. especially on red prints.
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I'm going to pick some of this up asap. I hate mixing reds...
I have found that lower activator is better, usually around 3% vs. the 6% for some other colors.
I haven't had much issue with fading after washing when adding matsui fixer.
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fox red to work well -- but irs on the orange side. for us
Our standard red mix- which works well for us- is 20 percent pigment load. out of that 80 percent warm red 20 percent rubine...4 percent zfs.
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Here is our go to red ( we have about 12) 17 year old formula using 2 pigs
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What's the recipe Tony?
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Sorry that's a no can do
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Sorry that's a no can do
Then what is the point?
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Sorry that's a no can do
Then what is the point?
Just wants to make you feel inadequate... :P
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The point is color mixing matching is not difficult and true reds are easily achievable. The best color mixers train themselves by observing results and recording the formulas in swatch books.
There are some things that I am not allowed to post.
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But the topic is Fox Red.
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Gary came by and left sample's with us but I've yet to try them, he also left us with some underbase white anyone tried that yet if you've got some. Hey Gil stop picking on Tpep he might take his ball and go home LOL
darryl
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No problems. BTW when Gary was at your shop did you ask him for the formulas for discharge base and white?
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No problems. BTW when Gary was at your shop did you ask him for the formulas for discharge base and white?
he willingly gives it out, or he did to me.
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Sure feels like the subject of dc red has been discussed here and all over the interwebs before. ::) Seek and ye shall find, but until then try maroon and bright orange pigs together. You will also have to experiment with different binders. Activator at 4% or less. Also different brands of garments will yield different results.
It is going to be hit and miss until you find the right mix of binder/pig/activator/garment. Tony is the DoD and he got there through years of experimenting. What he shares here is what he can share and that's a good thing...I have learned a lot.
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No problems. BTW when Gary was at your shop did you ask him for the formulas for discharge base and white?
he willingly gives it out, or he did to me.
Hey Jason......If you're talking about the ratio of white to base of course. Fact is non of my friends at Rutland, Wilflex, or CCI knew anything about white base ratios until a little birdie told them about it. ;)
We were doing for 15 ys and no one knew. I was referring to actual formulas to the base and the white (obviously proprietory) as an elbow rib to Gil. BTW still got that Vegas Gold wet samp paper weight on my desk. Guess I'll have to stop making a pretty paperweight and work on it for you
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sounds like a nice Christmas gift!
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No problems. BTW when Gary was at your shop did you ask him for the formulas for discharge base and white?
he willingly gives it out, or he did to me.
Hey Jason......If you're talking about the ratio of white to base of course. Fact is non of my friends at Rutland, Wilflex, or CCI knew anything about white base ratios until a little birdie told them about it. ;)
We were doing for 15 ys and no one knew. I was referring to actual formulas to the base and the white (obviously proprietory) as an elbow rib to Gil. BTW still got that Vegas Gold wet samp paper weight on my desk. Guess I'll have to stop making a pretty paperweight and work on it for you
Oh, I will GLADLY ask a different question given you "clearing" up things.
Can you sell us some of that proprietary red that you mix up? Those other guys won't give me the formula you are right, but they will GLADLY sell me all the ink I can use at a very reasonable price.
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Sorry Gil not allowed but.........if you scroll up a few posts (not mine) you may find a hint
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That's cool... just back to my original (rhetorical) question. I'm good!
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I think tony just likes to taunt us, as well as teach us that we should all be open to doing R&D to produce the best products possible.
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Fair enough; a little of both. The latter of which is sometimes a good thing nest'ce pas?
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Discharge is sooooooo simple :)
I'm sure as our customer base starts requesting more of it we'll do more and more but in the mean time, I'll stick to plastisol for most of our work and the other 5-10% will be single color DC. I like being able to do everything with single strokes and seeing problems as they happen and not at the end of the dryer. Not to mention having to not worry about the type of garment and its "dischargeability" is kind of nice.
Of course I'll concede that there are quite a few things that DC is better at than plastisol and we use it when applicable, but I think that sometimes the IDEA that DC is a piece of cake is thrown around a bit too cavalier. I think a few shops struggle with plastisol and turn to DC for the answers and the lucky ones find it, but many reluctantly turn back to plastisol and continue to fight with it hoping the magic ink comes out soon. The actual part of pushing/pulling the squeegee is easier with DC but everywhere else it's not as black and white.
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Discharge is sooooooo simple :)
I'm sure as our customer base starts requesting more of it we'll do more and more but in the mean time, I'll stick to plastisol for most of our work and the other 5-10% will be single color DC. I like being able to do everything with single strokes and seeing problems as they happen and not at the end of the dryer. Not to mention having to not worry about the type of garment and its "dischargeability" is kind of nice.
Of course I'll concede that there are quite a few things that DC is better at than plastisol and we use it when applicable, but I think that sometimes the IDEA that DC is a piece of cake is thrown around a bit too cavalier. I think a few shops struggle with plastisol and turn to DC for the answers and the lucky ones find it, but many reluctantly turn back to plastisol and continue to fight with it hoping the magic ink comes out soon. The actual part of pushing/pulling the squeegee is easier with DC but everywhere else it's not as black and white.
Gonna have to agree, there are jobs I look at and they scream DC, but not having to consider the MANY factors that make it discharge will always make plastisol appeal to me. There is a place for both, but those who say plastisol will go away.....I think not.
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Piece of cake no, manageable, yes. Not for everyone? Yes.
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I struggle with using discharge for the simple reason of bright colors, I know what color I'm going to get when I use plastisol inks, DC not so sure and that might be due to the fact of my inexperience using DC. I would rather us waterbase ink if there was a choice between the two, waterbase to me is like plastisol you know what to expect on color. You fellers that got DC down to a science more power to you and keep posting so I can learn from teh info you all put out.
darryl
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Been working with this ink for a few days now and am pretty happy with it overall. It prints nice and washes very well, with the latter initially being my biggest concern.
Colorwise, from what I can tell this stuff is packed with Flo Pink, and probably a bit more than I'd like. Although it washes a bit more muted than it comes off the dryer, when used straight from the bucket there are still hints of fuchsia-ish hues when looked at under certain lighting. I ended up adding a bit of black pigment to tone it down and came out with a very nice and vibrant deep red. I'll be trying a few more mixes with it when I have some time but for now it'll do the trick.
Looking forward to seeing more RFU discharge colors hit the market. HINT HINT, CCI.
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I was told that they will be doing pantone colors.
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I was told that they will be doing pantone colors.
That would be nice. Just a RFU mixing system like the Mixo system would be cool.
Murphy37
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Sericol has had this for years. I have the entire Pantone Starting Formulations guide here but don't use it
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We've used the Sericol too. We liked it, but don't use it now. I was kind of hoping this was the direction CCI was going with the RFU....wink,wink...@ CCI if your seeing this.
Murphy37
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I'm going to pick some of this up asap. I hate mixing reds...
I have found that lower activator is better, usually around 3% vs. the 6% for some other colors.
I haven't had much issue with fading after washing when adding matsui fixer.
This helped me big time. Once I lowered the activator amount my reds were spot on.
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bumping this up...how do you guys like the fox red so far? I'm always the last to get samples cuz I don't have any cool friends but we just got a few dropped off yesterday...we tested it on the same shirt as a sericol print....both with 3% activator....sericol won the battle hands down, and I am pullling for CCI RFU inks like a mo'fo' too but...I'll stick with the sericol for now.
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Sericol KILLS IT! I hate to say it, cause Gary Fox is a good friend of mine, but its the truth.
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bumping this up...how do you guys like the fox red so far? I'm always the last to get samples cuz I don't have any cool friends but we just got a few dropped off yesterday...we tested it on the same shirt as a sericol print....both with 3% activator....sericol won the battle hands down, and I am pullling for CCI RFU inks like a mo'fo' too but...I'll stick with the sericol for now.
We used it for a bit but overall I wasn't completely happy with it and its been sitting on the shelf ever since. Even with some modifications I couldn't get exactly what I was looking for, so we fell back on our old formulas.
Where are you guys getting your Sericol RFU red?
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Atlas or from Sericol directly
http://www.atlasscreensupply.com/discharge_ink.htm (http://www.atlasscreensupply.com/discharge_ink.htm)
I do have some of that "readycharge" ink here too....yeah it doesn't work haha.....
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beware, Sericol is not interested in small accounts and it will show in their dealing with you. Atlas might be a good workaround as it would provide you with the customer service Sericol lacks (unless something changed since I tried to do business with them a couple of years back).
pierre
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beware, Sericol is not interested in small accounts and it will show in their dealing with you. Atlas might be a good workaround as it would provide you with the customer service Sericol lacks (unless something changed since I tried to do business with them a couple of years back).
pierre
Sericol definitely is more interested in selling drums of ink v. buckets. However, when we bought the DC RFU system a few years back we had a rep who was great, gave us excellent direct pricing and explained that selling gallons is a new thing for them and to bear with. No issues that I can remember with service or sales. They seemed genuinely interested in the "smaller" orders at the time but I'm sure that can change rapidly in a company as large as fujifilm. It sounds like maybe they went back to just doing drums and are no longer as interested in the gallon sales.
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beware, Sericol is not interested in small accounts and it will show in their dealing with you. Atlas might be a good workaround as it would provide you with the customer service Sericol lacks (unless something changed since I tried to do business with them a couple of years back).
pierre
Sericol definitely is more interested in selling drums of ink v. buckets. However, when we bought the DC RFU system a few years back we had a rep who was great, gave us excellent direct pricing and explained that selling gallons is a new thing for them and to bear with. No issues that I can remember with service or sales. They seemed genuinely interested in the "smaller" orders at the time but I'm sure that can change rapidly in a company as large as fujifilm. It sounds like maybe they went back to just doing drums and are no longer as interested in the gallon sales.
we worked with them frequently, up until recently when they "forgot" to ship a $3k ink order to us. delayed the order by a week, and it still hadn't shipped, so we started working with a local supplier who carried their inks, and got us even more of a discount. That was the only hiccup in our 3 year relationship.
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My experience with the CCI fox red is, it dries out quickly and gets very pasty, which leads me to believe it's a fluorescent base/pigment with standard red shade pigments added to it. The sericol texcharge red yellow shade with a small percentage of rhodamine red pigment added to it yields a very nice red, imho...
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My experience with the CCI fox red is, it dries out quickly and gets very pasty, which leads me to believe it's a fluorescent base/pigment with standard red shade pigments added to it. The sericol texcharge red yellow shade with a small percentage of rhodamine red pigment added to it yields a very nice red, imho...
I just got a sample of CCI's Fox Red but haven't run any yet.
I get a pretty nice red by adding Matsui's Neo Red Pigment to Sericol's Texcharge Yellow Shade Red and activating with 3% ZFX.
It doesn't dry out too bad, but I'd like to try a little Rhodamine too.
Stan
P.S. Orion, here is exactly my above red. (I do this in 200 gram multiples.) 100 grams of Texcharge Yellow Shade Red, 90 grams of CCI Premium Base, 10 grams of Matsui Neo Red, 6 grams of ZFS (3%) and an additional 3% of Matsui penetrant. How much Rhodamine do you add to your YS Red? I know this is off topic, so you could PM me if you like. Thanks!....
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Ooops...misspoke earlier it is "rubine red" pigment.
CrOoked..pm on the way.
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For those of you on the CCI CMS system, the best red we got was 185c right out of the book, 75% Warm/25% Rubine, 3% activator in case it's helpful.
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Good to know, Zoo!
I landed on my Frankenstein Mishmash before I switched over to CCI.
E.V.E.R.Y SINGLE thing I tried for WBDC Reds failed miserably, until I learned I could modify the YS Red from Sericol.
But now that I've almost entirely converted over to CCI, I'll try your mix.
And I've still got to run some Fox Red! (We're just pretty busy right now, and I'm still learning about my auto.)