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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: tonyt79 on December 20, 2014, 01:18:33 AM
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I have been in the market for a auto, and researching. I have a good friend that is a director for the Dallas Cowboys and has told me many times that we can go check out what he calls their "sweat shop" also sent me many pics. He doesn't work in that area but can take me there if I want to see. That had my mind set into a huge shop! Still have not gone but my rep from GSG took me to a shop today to show me a diamondback at work and that made my thoughts of the cowboy shop look like chump stuff
I am sure now that all their challengers are way more than I had expected.
Anyway this is about my trip today. I could not believe the amount if space this place had. They did not just do shirts, in fact the person that walked us out said they only did them because they had all the equipment and knowledge from the sign and Label printing. It was all a lot to take in. But on the shirt printing, they had an older gauntlet, a sportsman, a diamondback, and an oval all over printer. Pretty much all serving a different purpose. I was there to check out the diamond back, which they mainly use for tag and sleeve printing.
It was crazy how much was going on in that place! It makes my mom and pop shop look horrible. I guess they had something secret they were printing cause they made us not go back to an area we came from and go out another door.
I can't even imagine how hard a place like is to run. It was definitely an experience. Also it is an eye opener to how much work is out there. I know a lot of shops like me and even a lot bigger ones still have work to find
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not to derail your thoughts on the Diamondback, but do yourself a major favor and look at machines with AC heads instead of Air... while Air has come quite a far way, you'll never get the consistency, or early-morning, cold-ink printability of AC heads from an air press.
After owning our new Sportsman and having to almost never 'adjust print speed/pressure' on the same ink we just ran yesterday problems (unlike with our Air-driven Javelin), it's eye-opening to see how much faster production can be.
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I am still in my decision making mode. The place just made me think damn. There is a lot going on in those shops
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yup. and you'll get there too... our first auto increased our orders by 3 or 4x, and made us more confident to take larger orders... we've printed more on our new auto (sportsman) in 6 weeks than we printed the entire last year.
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Beg, borrow, and steal to get AC heads, thank me later! Although I do also have a diamondback parked right next to my CH3D and I use it EVERYDAY and still love it.
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You could try the SA Evo
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We have an all air press and an an ac/servo- Gauntlet and now a Sportsman. And while newer isn't always better overall (the heads on our brand new sporty flex more than that ancient gauntlet for instance) electric/ac is definitely the way to go for the print heads, wherever possible. We have been very relieved to be printing with them so far.
That said, air heads will teach you a lot about printing and they will do 90% of what ac, belt driven heads can do if you know how to use them. The difference I see is not in the print so much in how the print is done. Air heads will force you to print a certain way, like it or not. Seems like with AC you can pretty much do what you like with each run.
Also, you can record what you did far more accurately. The RPM is the only press mfg that has seen the advantage to digitally reading out head speed but all the others have a 1-10 type dial that can be used for mostly accurate recording of settings. Those AC heads will print the same speed, every time, if set to the same number on the dial. Air head speed adjustments are basically just air pots, not a reliable point of reference. Our press sheets for stroke speed on the air machine have such non-specific terms as, fast, medium, slow, super slow, etc., obviously inferior to referencing a number.
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(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/20/adb491354830ae318c2813216498fe37.jpg)
With the decision to get an auto means my showroom is a gone. Have to move some desks up front. So I made this tonight
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The RPM is the only press mfg that has seen the advantage to digitally reading out head speed but all the others have a 1-10 type dial that can be used for mostly accurate recording of settings.
Not totally true...
on M&R presses that have VFDs on the heads (and maybe others that have the little plexi window where you can see the vfd readout), you can see the speed of the current stroke expressed in HZ. that number is far more accurate than the 1-10 knob. (of course, it doens't show it on the cool display like the RPM, but you can definitely find it and record it).
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The RPM is the only press mfg that has seen the advantage to digitally reading out head speed but all the others have a 1-10 type dial that can be used for mostly accurate recording of settings.
Not totally true...
on M&R presses that have VFDs on the heads (and maybe others that have the little plexi window where you can see the vfd readout), you can see the speed of the current stroke expressed in HZ. that number is far more accurate than the 1-10 knob. (of course, it doens't show it on the cool display like the RPM, but you can definitely find it and record it).
True! but you can only see that during the print stroke. It displays flood speed at rest. I have used it to sync up print speeds while the press is printing which is nice. I'm just saying other manufacturers don't have a dedicated digital readout for this purpose.
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
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Take a long hard look at the Workhorse Sabre. I'm sure glad I did.
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Take a long hard look at the Workhorse Sabre. I'm sure glad I did.
^^^That^^^ ;) 8)
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The OS on that Sabre looks fantastic. Would make for a smoother transition to auto printing I imagine.
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My major concern is space limitations and being my first auto, I am leaning towards the diamondback. It's cheap and small enough to fit where I need it. I am probably going to have to move in the next year or so. By then hopefully I would need another auto. Then I could upgrade from the original.
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Had we not gone with the sRoque, we would have went with the Sabre.
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can I ask why you took sroque over the sabre?
we are trying to decide on air - vs - ac/servo for our next auto printheads and have narrowed it down to:
sabre / sportsman / sroque / mhm
the research is overwhelming. I am most familiar with workhorse and m&r . Great products and service on both.
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There shouldn't even be a question between air and AC/servo. If you can afford to pull the trigger on the later just cross air off the list.
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Put the money into AC heads for sure, why would you want to set yourself up to "upgrade in a year"?
Our first press is all air, had I had access to as many good reviews and points as you do on this forum I probably would of gone AC heads. Probably would of been a lot happier too...
Before everyone starts putting MHM's, S.Roques and CHIIID's in your shopping cart, what are your space limitations? What print head/station configuration are you thinking? Do you have 3 phase power? Do you have a doorway a press will fit through? Can your dryer handle the volume from a auto?
Sorry I wasn't trying to be a downer but when you mention possibly needing to move in a year, that sounds kind of like a cart before the horse deal.
I made that mistake, TWICE.
Another thought, if you are anywhere where it gets cold(for you guys in CA and FL I mean colder than 60) some inks are a bear to push with air heads in the cold.
Very cool front counter! What's it made out of?
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Put the money into AC heads for sure, why would you want to set yourself up to "upgrade in a year"?
Our first press is all air, had I had access to as many good reviews and points as you do on this forum I probably would of gone AC heads. Probably would of been a lot happier too...
Before everyone starts putting MHM's, S.Roques and CHIIID's in your shopping cart, what are your space limitations? What print head/station configuration are you thinking? Do you have 3 phase power? Do you have a doorway a press will fit through? Can your dryer handle the volume from a auto?
Sorry I wasn't trying to be a downer but when you mention possibly needing to move in a year, that sounds kind of like a cart before the horse deal.
I made that mistake, TWICE.
Another thought, if you are anywhere where it gets cold(for you guys in CA and FL I mean colder than 60) some inks are a bear to push with air heads in the cold.
Very cool front counter! What's it made out of?
I didn't really mean that I plan to upgrade in a year. Just that I have more work than my manual and I can handle right now, but not the budget to go jump in the deep end of the pool. Hoping that I can push more out and bring more in to have that budget down the road.
My space that I have is roughly 19x20 to fit press and dryer. I could go a little bigger. I am taking down a wall to help make some room. I am looking at getting a package deal because my dryer now will not handle it.
Thanks on the desk. It is made out of fence boards mostly. I have a counter that is built the same and my shop kinda has them all over the place.
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Put the money into AC heads for sure, why would you want to set yourself up to "upgrade in a year"?
Our first press is all air, had I had access to as many good reviews and points as you do on this forum I probably would of gone AC heads. Probably would of been a lot happier too...
Before everyone starts putting MHM's, S.Roques and CHIIID's in your shopping cart, what are your space limitations? What print head/station configuration are you thinking? Do you have 3 phase power? Do you have a doorway a press will fit through? Can your dryer handle the volume from a auto?
Sorry I wasn't trying to be a downer but when you mention possibly needing to move in a year, that sounds kind of like a cart before the horse deal.
I made that mistake, TWICE.
Another thought, if you are anywhere where it gets cold(for you guys in CA and FL I mean colder than 60) some inks are a bear to push with air heads in the cold.
Very cool front counter! What's it made out of?
Once I started typing I forgot all you asked. 3 phase power, 7 1/2 foot door roughly. Been looking 6/8 but would prefer 8/10 if I can make it work
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Dude, you have what you need to dip your toes in!
You could sub the work out and build up some cash to move. I know that sounds like a sucky idea, but if I didn't say it someone else would of! In all reality it is probably the "best" decision, but it is hard to sub work out when you know you can do it...
You ever thought of picking up a cheaper used auto and dryer to get you through till you have more room? The nice thing about that is when/if you move and have more space for a bigger set up, your used press which you will then call your "beater" can be kept for simple 1 color jobs or tags and whatnot...
Just a thought.
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Tony I wasn't trying to hijack the thread with my questions. I was in your situation about a year ago and got a newer used freedom/javelin with two flashbacks and chopper upgrade on head one. It has been an awesome press and we just did a 6 c front 6 c back on darks this week. And we've printed 6 doz/ hr on it several times on no-flash jobs. I have way more than gotten my moneys worth out of it. 13 ft diameter. NOW we are looking into a 10 or 12 color to accomodate more work. Space is not a problem. Cold ink CAN be a challenge but if you stir/work it first its no issues. I almost went the diamondback route and am glad I didn't. PM me and I can give you more info.
TCT if those questions were for me then no space limits to speak of. Looking for a 10/12 or 12/14. No threephase currently. Our dryer can handle as fast as we can print 8/doz hr. Unless we are doing discharge then it slows. We have multiple bays and a loading dock.
Tony that countertop desk is awesome. You for hire?
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Tony I wasn't trying to hijack the thread with my questions. I was in your situation about a year ago and got a newer used freedom/javelin with two flashbacks and chopper upgrade on head one. It has been an awesome press and we just did a 6 c front 6 c back on darks this week. And we've printed 6 doz/ hr on it several times on no-flash jobs. I have way more than gotten my moneys worth out of it. 13 ft diameter. NOW we are looking into a 10 or 12 color to accomodate more work. Space is not a problem. Cold ink CAN be a challenge but if you stir/work it first its no issues. I almost went the diamondback route and am glad I didn't. PM me and I can give you more info.
TCT if those questions were for me then no space limits to speak of. Looking for a 10/12 or 12/14. No threephase currently. Our dryer can handle as fast as we can print 8/doz hr. Unless we are doing discharge then it slows. We have multiple bays and a loading dock.
Tony that countertop desk is awesome. You for hire?
6dz/hr and 8dz/hr? I am guessing you probably made a typo here....
Anyway, that is a great example of what I was talking about. Find something that you don't have to sink a bunch of coin into right now if you know you will need to move. Then when/if you move chances are your circumstances/needs/requirements will change, and you can get a big SOB!
@jonbravado- Sounds like you have the space, 3 phase power tends to be helpful, definitely makes things easier, but you could feasibly make a go of it with single phase.... There are compressors out there that you can get made in single phase, and most if not all equipment manufacturers will let you specify a new press, dryer or flashes in single phase. If it comes down to it you can always get a quote from your power company of what the cost and or possibility of a upgrade to 3 phase would cost. We upgraded, it was going to cost nearly $20K, but after some back and forth and thinking outside of the box, we were able to bring the power into our building from another direction(we are on a corner lot) and the cost became $0!!! So there are ways to do it.
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Meant to type 6 doz/hr - 800 pcs/hr - which we HAVE done on that press and our dryer with a loader, unloader and two people at the end of the dryer - and plenty of ink in the screen. When printing a small one color imprint no flash with adjusted print stroke, it's totally doable. Our main printer is fast, and can load a lot faster than me.
We had our dryer rewired for single phase - it pulls more AMPS, but it's quite efficient otherwise.
Tony - If space limitations are in play - then it's really hard to beat the value of a workhorse press with the flashback(s). And if printing white/flash/white - you only have to burn a single white screen and use the flashback. So it saves you time and money. I am going to offload my setup + a good forced air dryer in the next little while. It'll make someone very happy for a first auto, as it did us.
I am really looking hard into the Sabre right now (and the sportsman) - they are comparable price-wise, but i could go two less heads with the sabre and get a flashback + a regular auto flash and be quite versatile. Decisions decisions......... I remember when M&R was the only real choice. The good old days, perhaps? Or is all this competition great for innovation?
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Your selling your self short if you sacrifice two heads for a flash back. Your production time will suffer and no mater how many heads you get it will always be nice to have just one more. Flash backs and step backs are nice but more for someone with limited space or trying to get as much as they can out of a small press.
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I didn't know a javelin was that fast, good to know.
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I didn't know a javelin was that fast, good to know.
We never got even close to that on ours. Maybe 400/hr max running at full speed. We don't have stroke stops though so maybe that's the difference.
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I think full out ours only was in the 400-500 range and it shook like crazy. I don't even think it can dry cycle that fast, indexer can't cycle that fast.
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I think full out ours only was in the 400-500 range and it shook like crazy. I don't even think it can dry cycle that fast, indexer can't cycle that fast.
this is very true. 500/hr is about max for dry cycling. I believe that workhorse rates it around 600/hr, but if you don't want the machine banging and jumping, it's typically slowed down a bit.
Also, with an air indexer like the Javelin, you're loading and unloading takes much more effort.
running our Sportsman at 800/hr or even 850/hr feels like we were running the Javelin around 400/hr, it's that drastic of a difference going from air index to servo index.
Honestly, unless you're buying used at a GREAT price, stay away from a Javelin or Freedom, especially the ones that have V-Squeegees... while we learned how to use it, and get some really good prints out of it, it's not something I would wish on a newer printer...
Oh, and the Flashback is slow as molasses... best print speed we were ever able to get with using the flashback was around 300/hr.
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Workhorse has a new press coming out. It has a Small Footprint, Small Price and the Workhorse OS.
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I've watched a few videos of the flashback in action and noticed how production numbers were very slow, I think I remember seeing 2-3 shirts per minute being done when doing a PFPF. Using it as a standalone in it's own print head without a screen would be the way I used it most of the time. I was surprised however at the flash's ability to gel as quickly as it did. The shuttle was moving at a nice clip and still gelling the base.
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I took an M&R gauntlet & sportsman operator and put them on this freedom. The MAIN complaint with the freedoms/javelins is printing hi opacity white ink with a v-squeegie, but we did the chopper upgrade and solved that problem completely. Running our press that fast was actually quite smooth. They dialed it in, delay, flood, print speed with no flash and a short print stroke (smaller front imprint) - and the press indexes every 5 seconds - no bad rattling or jumping (i do have 2 flashbacks opposite one another - maybe that helped with balance?). The guys at spot color sold us the press and it was tip-top when we got it - they do a great job of checking out everything they sell. And we've taken care of it. My printer actually enjoys printing with the v-squeegies - and there is advantages to the v-squeegies on setup (not for cleaning though) and definite advantages for discharge/waterbased. We hardly ever print that fast - normally 300-350 hour is a good production rate for that machine with a good operator on a flash job. But last time I checked that's a LOT more shirts than a manual can do with flashes involved. I'd have to disagree on the 'stay away from a used freedom/javelin' - ours has gotten us to a very good point in our market and our volume of business - way more than paid for itself. If you are banging out more smaller jobs (under 500 pcs), it's perfect - setups are quick. If you are contract printer with 1000's per print - I'd not get a press with flashbacks. They do limit you a bit on larger runs that require a flash. But if the pallets are warm, you can zip that thing in and out and it speeds up a good bit. Pros and Cons indeed. But i don't regret getting a Freedom as our first Auto - not one bit. I can see the servo index being a huge plus on fast/long runs - now you got me thinking........
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The flash back isn't as much as a hold up as you might think.
In fact, we love ours a LOT. We have been able to run 6 color jobs that we just wouldn't have been able to do if it wasn't for the flash back. Fitting in an 8 color press would have been extremely tough but I guess I could have done it... but it would have probably been a Diamondback and then we would have had air heads vs AC heads. Now we have a smaller foot print, AC heads and we can use EVERY head.
What lots of people don't think about is that you just run the Flashback in head 2 in "table up"mode and it flashes like any other flash... just a tiny bit slower since it shuttles.
Even in PF mode (we were too green to realize that we should have moved it to head 2 as I just described) we were rolling some left chest at 500 pcs/hour. If we would have moved the flash to head 2 then we would have been able to print faster than my guy was able to load.
He can load faster now and we still have never run this press at full speed yet. Either we don't engineer the job to take advantage of the situation for one reason or another or we just aren't in a rush to bother with it.
I could buy a standard flash, but we don't have the space to really have one and I can't see myself kicking myself too much about that. The flash back has us moving along just fine. I just went time it and at ALMOST full stroke and slowed down a bit because of a recent job it takes 8 secs to shuttle out and back. So that's 450 times an hour... lets knock that down for table up and down and maybe we are looking at 400 shirts an hour. To be honest you could run the shuttle out faster and just draw it back slower... I just don't like the idea of the abrupt stop. I tune the shuttle out to be comfortable for the bulbs and set the retract for the ink.
So, unless you think you will be running a 3 person printing team I can't see you really being slowed down by a flash back anytime soon. If you are running a 3 person team and have an unloader then yes, you could be losing some production time because of the flash back. I'd have a hard time seeing myself with a 3 person team in my current situation very frequently. Isn't the notion for shops our size to do about 100k per employee... so I'd have to still have another 2 people out front (we all know I'm not going back there and sweating ;) )... so that means 5 people in the office, and if we are pulling in 500k/year then I'm getting a bigger shop. :) At that point, I'll get a standard flash and use the flash back when I need more colors... OR, just add a 2nd 10-12 color press. :)