TSB
screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: Dottonedan on January 20, 2015, 08:26:42 PM
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Separate unit for exposure for sure. If M&R STE CTS is down I can print film on inkjet and still unable to expose screen ? No thank you.
I agree. Any shop that has any device from any company should still always keep a backup. Just like if you need to get to work and your car breaks down, you need an alternative source. All machines "can" break down, but some more than others. Sort of like an expensive car and an economy car. Expensive cars can break down, but probably less often. What is also important, is how the company reacts to your situation if it does.
That brings me back to price. There are other (after purchase factors) to consider in every purchase. An higher initial cost does not make a loss in a comparison.
I'm not in sales and make no additional $ on promoting one over the other. I'm simply starting to know a good bit about them so, I'm just giving you suggestions on areas to really look at closely that are not seen up front.
If speed is of no concern, and those that are in the running, are of equal speed, then focus on the following to other owners who have one of each model or type.
Cost of head replacement
Frequency of head replacement
research on types of heads.
Ink usage per screen.
Wax usage per screen
Cost per square foot of an equal coverage.
To be direct, I don't have answers for all of those above.
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I'm not in sales and make no additional $ on promoting one over the other....
That's a little disingenuous... Your job depends on those sales regardless if you make a commission or not.
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I'm not in sales and make no additional $ on promoting one over the other....
That's a little disingenuous... Your job depends on those sales regardless if you make a commission or not.
Lets not get too rediculous about it. In theory, somewhere down the line I could benefit or not benefit in so much as someone in our department including myself could "technically" maintain ones job for an additional couple days or months if I were to somehow sway a decision on a sale in our direction....but is (the vague path to prosperity that I would reep) really worth mentioning? It's not even interesting for commenting on, except for one more...
Our department is and will be flourishing with or without me and what I say. What does matter tho, is that you all happen to be able to get good honest, direct first hand knowledge and have access to that, so long as you all continue to allow me the ability to share that knowledge with you. You can choose to take it or leave it, I just ask that you be respectful.
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I was simply saying that you do have a vested interest in promoting one over the other. You install these machines for M&R. If Kiwo comes out and crushes it and creates a machine that makes M&R put theirs next to the Auto Stacking machine then you will have to find something else to do.
That's all I'm saying. Full disclosure never hurt anyone, I certainly don't feel that it is disrespectful in any facet.
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Disengenuous felt like you were calling me a liar simply because of where I work and my content is skewed for that reason. Luckily for me, It's both easy to say it's a solid machine and also true. Outside of that, the content of all of my post, never mentioned one brand being better than another. They just give examples of things to consider or to gather more direct information that would prove itself beneficial to the buyer.
I think that is as fair and balanced as I need to be. It's already hard enough to work this forum and have to convince people of not playing favorites, while telling it like it is. So seeing you point out some distant benefits seemed unnecessary and daluting my credibility as someone having something of value to say on the subject. That's all.
One thing I know, Rich himself would never stand for me or anyone to lie or stretch the truth in our favor. The product will speak for itself and if it can't, we will make it better (if) it's a viable change overall, or meaning, it would be a feasible change that would benefit the majority. Some change request may not be beneficial to everyone, thus unnessesarily increasing cost to those who don't need it.
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I specifically quoted that single part of your statement because that was the only part I took exception with.
The thing is, because it is hard to walk that line you have to walk, that is all the more reason to be as upfront as possible.
And again, it's not a distant connection. You don't work for the NuArc division and your stock holdings might go up if they push a few more units, you install the machines themselves. This does give you direct insight into the product but it also certainly gives you a reason to want to see these units do well. To say ANYTHING else IS disingenuous.
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I'd have to call bullsqueeze on that one.
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Not sure what you are calling BS on. Either you are calling me BS/liar... which holy sh!t, WTF is your problem.
OR you are suggesting what I'm saying is still off... in that case it's just getting more and more revealing, to the point that I was hoping wasn't the case. :(
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Enough convoluted drama. Let's make this about the machines and answers.
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Subject line is asking about another manufacturers machine. Response is from board owner that is employee of competing manufacturer
with "information" regarding their machine. In the name of a free and open board, as well as a level playing field, I'd argue there is
a conflict of interest there somewhere.
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Subject line is asking about another manufacturers machine. Response is from board owner that is employee of competing manufacturer
with "information" regarding their machine. In the name of a free and open board, as well as a level playing field, I'd argue there is
a conflict of interest there somewhere.
The response, says nothing about any one Co or its product. It gives areas of impactful results of interest to review with each and every model or brand.
What I hear you say, is the fact that I was part owner several year before working with them, all the while, never speaking ill of any of these other companies before, or during working here, and the fact that I have years and years of industry knowledge and credibility means nothing to you "because of where I work".
I see. I had never really given it that much credit that people would use it against me, but I see now.
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I am gonna have to side with Dan on this one. In the years I've known him, he's always been a stand up, no lying kind of guy (might hold his ground and argue with you, but WILL NOT lie to you!). I also don't think his livelihood depends on the DTS sales as I am certain Rich would use him for something else if that division would close (for some reason I can't even come up with considering their success).
Yes, at this point he might be biased, but any one of us that is not biased towards the products we are offering is probably in the wrong business. We ALL think that our product is better than our competitor's and we ALL try to make it better in some way. Dan is human after all and there is absolutely no way we should hold that against him (since it applies to every one of us). I think at this point we should give Dan credit for holding back and not pushing the product he works on!
It also is true that Dan did not mention any manufacturer in his post and never implied anything about the M&R or Exile. Both Dan and I have heard from unhappy Exile customers and Dan never brought it up. That is the right move and is something to be expected from a guy like Dan.
Sorry Gilligan, I would gladly take your side if you had the case, but will have to politely disagree with you here. . . .
pierre
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I am gonna have to side with Dan on this one. In the years I've known him, he's always been a stand up, no lying kind of guy (might hold his ground and argue with you, but WILL NOT lie to you!). I also don't think his livelihood depends on the DTS sales as I am certain Rich would use him for something else if that division would close (for some reason I can't even come up with considering their success).
Yes, at this point he might be biased, but any one of us that is not biased towards the products we are offering is probably in the wrong business. We ALL think that our product is better than our competitor's and we ALL try to make it better in some way. Dan is human after all and there is absolutely no way we should hold that against him (since it applies to every one of us). I think at this point we should give Dan credit for holding back and not pushing the product he works on!
It also is true that Dan did not mention any manufacturer in his post and never implied anything about the M&R or Exile. Both Dan and I have heard from unhappy Exile customers and Dan never brought it up. That is the right move and is something to be expected from a guy like Dan.
Sorry Gilligan, I would gladly take your side if you had the case, but will have to politely disagree with you here. . . .
pierre
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Subject line is asking about another manufacturers machine. Response is from board owner that is employee of competing manufacturer
with "information" regarding their machine. In the name of a free and open board, as well as a level playing field, I'd argue there is
a conflict of interest there somewhere.
The response, says nothing about any one Co or its product. It gives areas of impactful results of interest to review with each and every model or brand.
What I hear you say, is the fact that I was part owner several year before working with them, all the while, never speaking ill of any of these other companies before, or during working here, and the fact that I have years and years of industry knowledge and credibility means nothing to you "because of where I work".
I see. I had never really given it that much credit that people would use it against me, but I see now.
Dan, you've never come off to me and I highly doubt many others as a fan boy even after you started working for M&R you've generally remained really neutral in your postings which requires effort in your position that you are not getting credit for. So kudos there to you.
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As I told Dan, and he agrees that he knows it, he walks a somwhat finer line now that M&R is his employer. He will have to make a concerted effort sometimes to eliminate any thought that his contributions here are slanted in that direction.
He's doing pretty well, and it would be a great disservice to the membership to lose his input and expertise in this field.
Try to look at the big picture, and also give him the benefit of the doubt.
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In the interest of full disclosure, shouldn't he put that he works for M&R in his signature? Would make confusion impossible and I though that's what 244 required of his reps who post online?
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In the interest of full disclosure, shouldn't he put that he works for M&R in his signature? Would make confusion impossible and I though that's what 244 required of his reps who post online?
For the most part, he has posted as an artist/sepper or TSB partner rather than as another M&R employee or representative (who also frequent the board). Nonetheless, a little more disclosure could only help.
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I agree, just require members to disclose in your signature if you are paid by a mfg in any way. Solves all this pretty handily.
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I don't think you guys are seeing the "problem" that I had. It had NOTHING to do with the information presented. I only called out that SINGLE one line.
Fact is nothing I said is not true. He's job (current) COMPLETELY depends on sales of M&R DTS machines. Can anyone tell me that as an installer of M&R DTS machines that this isn't true?! Would Rich move him to another department? Probably, all I said was that he "will have to find something else to do." This is true... I never said he would be on the streets. I'm just saying it would be something else.
Does anyone want to change their roles involuntarily from what they are doing now? I didn't thinks so, and I'm sure Dan doesn't either.
SO, again his "job depends on those sales regardless if you make a commission or not." This is a fact of the matter.
I'm not suggesting Dan is a terrible person or that he shouldn't comment or that he is doing anything wrong with any of the rest of what he's talking about. I'm just suggesting that he refrain from disingenuous statements like what he said. When it comes down to it, his money is DIRECTLY related to the sales of one over the other.
Clearly even the most level headed people on this forum even suggest that there is a disclaimer to manufacture's employees. As you said, most people are proud of the products they represent and should be proud to say it in their signature as well.
This was never meant to be such a drawn out "fight" and I'm frankly quite surprised that it has had to go so far to take on a thread of it's own and having the other two owners of the forum chiming in. To me, it should have been pretty quickly and easily resolved... but as Dan does (love him or hate him) he had to push back. ;)
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In the interest of full disclosure, shouldn't he put that he works for M&R in his signature? Would make confusion impossible and I though that's what 244 required of his reps who post online?
What is required of an M&R when posting on this site is to identify themselves as who they are. There cannot be any hiding under fake names or alias without people knowing who they are. Dan is definitely not hiding himself and quite honestly think he is proud of what he does for a living. I do not want to add to this post as it already has lost any knowledge value. I will add Dan doesn't have to worry about a job installing our product. We are adding an additional 10 tech's this quarter. For those counting that will be a total of 63 M&R factory tech's.
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(http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/screencrush.com/442/files/2013/03/thumbs-up.jpg)
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In the interest of full disclosure, shouldn't he put that he works for M&R in his signature? Would make confusion impossible and I though that's what 244 required of his reps who post online?
What is required of an M&R when posting on this site is to identify themselves as who they are. There cannot be any hiding under fake names or alias without people knowing who they are. Dan is definitely not hiding himself and quite honestly think he is proud of what he does for a living. I do not want to add to this post as it already has lost any knowledge value. I will add Dan doesn't have to worry about a job installing our product. We are adding an additional 10 tech's this quarter. For those counting that will be a total of 63 M&R factory tech's.
I have no doubt he is proud of what he does. All I'm saying is him weighing in on the conversation about Spyder CTS users with a list of things to consider when buying a CTS and saying he has no commission to make off sales WITHOUT at least mentioning he installs the M&R units is a little off-balance. Hell, at least Sonny blatantly plugs Xenon every chance he gets so EVERYONE KNOWS who he works for haha.
I'd rather see useful information posted as opposed to a laundry list of things to consider without mention of which hardware achieves the items on that list. We have a good group of people here that have valid and real world opinions of CTS units and it would be nice to hear from them. I honestly feel like we are shielded here at TSB from some of the downsides of these units because owners see WHO is watching and they don't want to be honest.
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In the interest of full disclosure, shouldn't he put that he works for M&R in his signature? Would make confusion impossible and I though that's what 244 required of his reps who post online?
What is required of an M&R when posting on this site is to identify themselves as who they are. There cannot be any hiding under fake names or alias without people knowing who they are. Dan is definitely not hiding himself and quite honestly think he is proud of what he does for a living. I do not want to add to this post as it already has lost any knowledge value. I will add Dan doesn't have to worry about a job installing our product. We are adding an additional 10 tech's this quarter. For those counting that will be a total of 63 M&R factory tech's.
I have no doubt he is proud of what he does. All I'm saying is him weighing in on the conversation about Spyder CTS users with a list of things to consider when buying a CTS and saying he has no commission to make off sales WITHOUT at least mentioning he installs the M&R units is a little off-balance. Hell, at least Sonny blatantly plugs Xenon every chance he gets so EVERYONE KNOWS who he works for haha.
I'd rather see useful information posted as opposed to a laundry list of things to consider without mention of which hardware achieves the items on that list. We have a good group of people here that have valid and real world opinions of CTS units and it would be nice to hear from them. I honestly feel like we are shielded here at TSB from some of the downsides of these units because owners see WHO is watching and they don't want to be honest.
I sometimes get that feeling, more so I think that they fear drama so much that there can not be anything slightly negative said. Especially since some people are such fan boys THEY are the ones that cause all sorts of drama if someone even hints at something not being perfect about their favorite brand.
Not everyone is perfect, doesn't make them bad... but let people know the truth so they can make their decisions on reality and not fan boy fantasy.
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I'm definitely sold on CTS and what it can do for our shop, no doubt. I don't necessarily question what it's done for others either, but I do have to note there are huge differences in the way our shop operates versus others where benefits aren't as substantial so that plays a huge role in when we pull the trigger. BUT, the biggest reason we haven't pulled the trigger yet is I want a unit that will be shipped, uncrated, plugged in, trained, and running properly within a reasonable amount of time. Essentially plug and play. Right now, out of the big 3, or 4 depending on who you talk to, there is a big chance that the first CTS unit that shows up at your shop isn't going to be the one printing for you 2 months later. I can be reasonable, but I could not imagine trying to coordinate all that I have to do while trying to incorporate a new piece of equipment that is not working properly...no thanks, I got enough problems I have to deal with.
One bad thing about forums is many times there is only mention of all the good things that happens at a shop and no mention of all the crap that had to be sifted through to get to the good. I know it's human nature to only want people to see/hear about how great every decision you make is, and no amount of me talking about this subject is going to get people to open up about all the problems they've had with a piece of equipment they just paid $70K. But it does SEEM that at times people go out of their way to cover up the turd in the corner rather than say hey, there was a giant turd in the corner which stunk up the place just a little, but we got rid of it and I couldn't be happier with the outcome.
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IMO some have really taken Dan's post as far to the extreme as possible. The guy posted a few key points to look at with any CTS, no brand info attached. Take his info or leave it, seemed simple to me. It was helpful to someone that will read that thread some day I am sure of it.
As loaded as some believe "fan boys" might be for a negative post about a brand, I believe there to be just as big or bigger opposition just wanting to create something from nothing. See this thread as a perfect example of that. Heck I made a shout box post yesterday saying my dryer was down all day, I didn't fear anything negative or drama from it, nor was any created from it.
That said its probably certainly fair Dan or anyone working for a manufacture have a tag in their signature.
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I am always more than happy to share the good and bad on the machine we run here. We have an M&R unit and a wax machine . Obviously the M&R unit was sold and is serviced by M&R. We bought the wax machine years ago from Kiwo, who quite honestly doesn't seem to want to support them. That's where Mark at Douthitt comes in. He has been my support over the last five years. I have both machines, and run them both. I have plenty to share on both, but I won't do it publicly anymore. Both Rich and Mark know that I share information openly and honestly. I believe they appreciate my willingness to share my feelings about both machines. One of the big problems, which Alan eluded to, is what works in my shop may not work in yours. One small feature on a machine might make it perfect for me, and suck for you. So I share what I have, and why it works for ME. Not what I think you should buy. And to be clear, I don't work for M&R, Douthitt, or Kiwo ;D. I do believe both Rich and Mark appreciate me sharing what information I have. I also believe both realize I will do so as honestly and without bias. "Just the facts, Ma'am". Actually, as I type, I am in conversation with three people gathering information.
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One statement I took exception to.... ONE! And I'm the one blowing things out of proportion? Hmmm
Brandt, I've seen a trend with your post/shout box post. Positives go into post on the forums, negative gripes go into the much lesser read and VERY much lesser archived Shout Box.
Maybe it's a coincidence and I'm perfectly ok accepting that, but it has been the trend that I noticed.
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In the interest of full disclosure, shouldn't he put that he works for M&R in his signature? Would make confusion impossible and I though that's what 244 required of his reps who post online?
What is required of an M&R when posting on this site is to identify themselves as who they are. There cannot be any hiding under fake names or alias without people knowing who they are. Dan is definitely not hiding himself and quite honestly think he is proud of what he does for a living. I do not want to add to this post as it already has lost any knowledge value. I will add Dan doesn't have to worry about a job installing our product. We are adding an additional 10 tech's this quarter. For those counting that will be a total of 63 M&R factory tech's.
I have no doubt he is proud of what he does. All I'm saying is him weighing in on the conversation about Spyder CTS users with a list of things to consider when buying a CTS and saying he has no commission to make off sales WITHOUT at least mentioning he installs the M&R units is a little off-balance. Hell, at least Sonny blatantly plugs Xenon every chance he gets so EVERYONE KNOWS who he works for haha.
I'd rather see useful information posted as opposed to a laundry list of things to consider without mention of which hardware achieves the items on that list. We have a good group of people here that have valid and real world opinions of CTS units and it would be nice to hear from them. I honestly feel like we are shielded here at TSB from some of the downsides of these units because owners see WHO is watching and they don't want to be honest.
If the who you are referring to is me you could not be further from the truth. I ask our customers to tell about our product good or bad. Feel free to ask any one of them if they have not heard that direct from me. Last I checked there were no secrets once more than one person knew of something.
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One statement I took exception to.... ONE! And I'm the one blowing things out of proportion? Hmmm
Brandt, I've seen a trend with your post/shout box post. Positives go into post on the forums, negative gripes go into the much lesser read and VERY much lesser archived Shout Box.
Maybe it's a coincidence and I'm perfectly ok accepting that, but it has been the trend that I noticed.
It's the way you did it, disrespectful if you ask me.
It didn't occur to me that I should have started a thread about a conveyor motor going out on a dryer that's working on 10 years old now? I use the shoutbox as casual conversation, I have posted good and bad inside it. I've posted negative issues within my business about employees/sales/equipment/etc in threads before. I don't have any major equipment issues that I felt needed a thread about though. Maybe you hadn't considered that when you were making your observations.
M&R or any company for that matter are not perfect. I've never said otherwise.
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Why were a bunch of the epson machines replaced all at once a few months ago?
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All taken into consideration... just a casual observation. Wasn't looking to debate it.
That's a little disingenuous... Your job depends on those sales regardless if you make a commission or not.
Yeah, that's TOTALLY harsh, especially on the internet where people are typically SOO polite. ::)
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Why were a bunch of the epson machines replaced all at once a few months ago?
Don't you remember everyone talking about all those problems they were having with them for months before this happened?
Yeah, me neither, I just remember a lot of people talking about how amazing they were and that they would sell their first born for them... don't think we ever read a negative statement about them and then all of a sudden "ABANDON SHIP!"... "but we still love them". ;)
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BUT, the biggest reason we haven't pulled the trigger yet is I want a unit that will be shipped, uncrated, plugged in, trained, and running properly within a reasonable amount of time. Essentially plug and play. Right now, out of the big 3, or 4 depending on who you talk to, there is a big chance that the first CTS unit that shows up at your shop isn't going to be the one printing for you 2 months later. I can be reasonable, but I could not imagine trying to coordinate all that I have to do while trying to incorporate a new piece of equipment that is not working properly...no thanks, I got enough problems I have to deal with.
This is a good point. I could point to my current CTS units and tell you that the install was effortless and we were up and running within an hour of the tech being here...and that would be true. I could also point to the second unit we bought from them sitting right next to the first where the tech wouldn't be able to get to us for a couple days so I decided to set it up myself based on what I remembered from the first unit's installation...and we were up and running within an hour.
As true as all of this is, it took 5 years of dealing with two other less than ideal solutions to finally get those turds out of the corner. That's over $110k and countless hours of frustration to finally find the best solution.
All said, I'd take those two turds on their worst days over films...any day of the week...and we'd still be coming out ahead on expenses and image quality.
As always, your mileage may vary.
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BUT, the biggest reason we haven't pulled the trigger yet is I want a unit that will be shipped, uncrated, plugged in, trained, and running properly within a reasonable amount of time. Essentially plug and play. Right now, out of the big 3, or 4 depending on who you talk to, there is a big chance that the first CTS unit that shows up at your shop isn't going to be the one printing for you 2 months later. I can be reasonable, but I could not imagine trying to coordinate all that I have to do while trying to incorporate a new piece of equipment that is not working properly...no thanks, I got enough problems I have to deal with.
This is a good point. I could point to my current CTS units and tell you that the install was effortless and we were up and running within an hour of the tech being here...and that would be true. I could also point to the second unit we bought from them sitting right next to the first where the tech wouldn't be able to get to us for a couple days so I decided to set it up myself based on what I remembered from the first unit's installation...and we were up and running within an hour.
As true as all of this is, it took 5 years of dealing with two other less than ideal solutions to finally get those turds out of the corner. That's over $110k and countless hours of frustration to finally find the best solution.
All said, I'd take those two turds on their worst days over films...any day of the week...and we'd still be coming out ahead on expenses and image quality.
As always, your mileage may vary.
Which units? What headaches?
Refresh our memories, what are the two that you use now?
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We have two Douthitt CTS units (the CTS-30 and CTS-52 if I recall correctly). The CTS-52 does our jumbo screens (up to 43"x52") and doubles as a backup for the CTS-30.
These units are simple, no frills units that do precisely what they were purchased to do. They are built like tanks. The software, as mentioned, is pretty spartan...but it does everything I could need it to do.
Douthitt support is unparalleled compared to the two prior units we had (Kiwo I-Jet2 and PlanetB Sprite)...as is the reliability, in my experience. I could get into greater detail if anyone wishes to private message me for specifics. I'm not looking to publicly smear a company with my own anecdotal evidence. That's just not fair.
But what I do know and will gladly say is that these machines function non-stop with very few issues...and there is yet to be a single issue that Mark fails to diagnose within seconds of a phone call--which he always picks up the phone for, from 7am EST until whenever the hell he goes home...which is after I go home, that's for sure. He responds to e-mails within minutes and is 99.9% of the time correct with his first diagnosis...of which is usually a very simple fix.
Sure, they aren't quite the Ferrari of features that the I-Jet2 was...but we didn't need a Ferrari, we needed a box truck. Some people may need the Ferrari.
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I still don't see anything extreme from either side, unless you're trying hard to find something. It feels like maybe something was edited or deleted or perhaps I'm just not easily swayed to the extremes. Saying someone was a little disingenuous with their comments wasn't extreme, neither was Dan's response in my opinion.
Keeping things about the machines is great, and I think Dan did a good job of that in his first post. I think he does walk a fine line and aside from one little comment to Gilligan has done great at that. I'm not mad at anyone for either comment but let's not kid ourselves. Dan wouldn't be praising another machine if it were really that much better than the ones he installs and even if he is speaking only facts about his employer's machines it will never change the fact that one could always have a good argument for conflict of interest. Even if the info was shared with good intentions and with no thought of being disingenuous it will always be what it is.
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Which units? What headaches?
I think they are Douthitt, which are IJet I, which are Spyder. (Spyder machine users are what we are supposed to be discussing here)
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Wait............there was an actual topic to this thread?
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Wait............there was an actual topic to this thread?
I'm trying ;)
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Why were a bunch of the epson machines replaced all at once a few months ago?
Why were a bunch of the epson machines replaced all at once a few months ago?
Don't you remember everyone talking about all those problems they were having with them for months before this happened?
Yeah, me neither, I just remember a lot of people talking about how amazing they were and that they would sell their first born for them... don't think we ever read a negative statement about them and then all of a sudden "ABANDON SHIP!"... "but we still love them". ;)
I had a feeling this is where this would go. You guys been wanting to get this one out for a minute right? Big ole conspiracy among the whisper crew.
Speaking for myself only, flat out they were Epson based. If you have a Epson printer you should know exactly what I am talking about. They still had all of the typical issues you see guys having out of Epson printers now and then. Work perfect at times then WTF moments just like my current 4880. M&R clearly felt the same way or they wouldn't have made their new one a stand alone unit that doesn't piggy back off Epson. This is not hard to put 1+1 together on this. I would STILL keep that one over films. Let's face it though, technology improves, it would be like one of you buying a older whatever then deciding you'd rather the new one. It's not as big a deal as your want it to be or will continue to believe it is. All this over a unit that isn't even manufactured any more.
I would say traded for the better model is a better description of what took place, we didn't want to fight with random Epson issues for the foreseeable future. So the ST was the right move for us, should have done it from go. So again, I didn't see need to state the obvious.
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LOL If all you fellas were chickens all y'alls tail feathers would be standing tall, I own a HTS been had it for years sometimes it work great some days it don't.
darryl
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In the interest of full disclosure, shouldn't he put that he works for M&R in his signature? Would make confusion impossible and I though that's what 244 required of his reps who post online?
What is required of an M&R when posting on this site is to identify themselves as who they are. There cannot be any hiding under fake names or alias without people knowing who they are. Dan is definitely not hiding himself and quite honestly think he is proud of what he does for a living. I do not want to add to this post as it already has lost any knowledge value. I will add Dan doesn't have to worry about a job installing our product. We are adding an additional 10 tech's this quarter. For those counting that will be a total of 63 M&R factory tech's.
I have no doubt he is proud of what he does. All I'm saying is him weighing in on the conversation about Spyder CTS users with a list of things to consider when buying a CTS and saying he has no commission to make off sales WITHOUT at least mentioning he installs the M&R units is a little off-balance. Hell, at least Sonny blatantly plugs Xenon every chance he gets so EVERYONE KNOWS who he works for haha.
I'd rather see useful information posted as opposed to a laundry list of things to consider without mention of which hardware achieves the items on that list. We have a good group of people here that have valid and real world opinions of CTS units and it would be nice to hear from them. I honestly feel like we are shielded here at TSB from some of the downsides of these units because owners see WHO is watching and they don't want to be honest.
If the who you are referring to is me you could not be further from the truth. I ask our customers to tell about our product good or bad. Feel free to ask any one of them if they have not heard that direct from me. Last I checked there were no secrets once more than one person knew of something.
I will confirm this. Last time we measured one of M&R units, Rich was adamant that WHATEVER we find can go public! There were no stipulations, none.
It is possible that some equipment owners don't want to express themselves on the forum due to fear of backlash, but those are personal choices. I've had issues with my press that I shared in private, but have not done in public. There is plenty of additional information that I do not share (about equipment, processes and other things one would consider trade secrets), but I have never steered anybody in the wrong direction. Actually, the more I deal with equipment, more I learn that it all has problems (some more than the others), but it's the resolution of the problems that counts and makes you warm and fuzzy when the day is over.
Even though it has not been brought up (or I missed it), the forum only condones negative posts and reviews that are informative and factual. These are a valuable decision making tool and help the potential buyer make a decision and the manufacturer gets a kick in the behind to get their crap together. Outright bashing, is not and will not be allowed.
pierre
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Well, that's the first mention of trading in. You were flippant in your response as to what would happen with the epson machine on the first go around.
A bunch of machines being replaced all at once with retarded answers as to why and where doesn't exactly scream transparency. I assume the epsons
are being resold, perhaps a loophole in a c&d from Seiko?
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Brandt, if there was anyone "hanging on to this" why would they... why not just pop it out if they wanted to roast anyone?
It's when things are said that conflict with the evidence on the table that people will step up and say... "yeah, but what about this?" and point back to the evidence. No conspiracies... just facts and logic vs potential sweeping under the rug.
You also didn't buy your unit and then next week they came out with the new model and you thought "Son of a b!tch! I want that NEW model!" You bought your original one after it was already WAY discontinued. You in fact got one of the VERY last ones. So you knew it was an Epson head, and as you said, everyone knows what kind of problems you can have with Epson heads, you even had them yourself with your 4800. Yet you were still sold on that "inferior" (by my impression from you) model over the current one.
Being the person that you are and the kind of money you are willing to invest in "the best for your business", you bought a CH3d for christ sake, it just seems like something is missing in the story on why you would buy that product and then upgrade within a month or so.
And EVERYONE bailed on that model at the same time... only thing we heard on the forums was "I'm excited about getting the new model!"... I think a lot of people were pretty shocked to see so many people that kept writing gushing reviews about their equipment all of a sudden switch from said equipment.
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I still don't see anything extreme from either side, unless you're trying hard to find something. It feels like maybe something was edited or deleted or perhaps I'm just not easily swayed to the extremes. Saying someone was a little disingenuous with their comments wasn't extreme, neither was Dan's response in my opinion.
Keeping things about the machines is great, and I think Dan did a good job of that in his first post. I think he does walk a fine line and aside from one little comment to Gilligan has done great at that. I'm not mad at anyone for either comment but let's not kid ourselves. Dan wouldn't be praising another machine if it were really that much better than the ones he installs and even if he is speaking only facts about his employer's machines it will never change the fact that one could always have a good argument for conflict of interest. Even if the info was shared with good intentions and with no thought of being disingenuous it will always be what it is.
Sadly, you didn't miss anything and nothing was deleted.
All of this explosion was over the first two post in this thread, simple as that. :(
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Play devils advocate for a second. Let's pretend Anatol makes CTS units and 4 or 5 recent buyers got new machines shortly after they had the originals installed. Allow yourself to wonder, as honest as you can, how that scenario would have played out on this forum. Now look back to how the real issue was handled and discussed and let's talk about how the two would have been different, if indeed you feel they would have been different. If you think it would have been the same, then that's fine too, but I doubt anyone that's being honest with themselves would feel that way.
Since it was M&R, the discussion, what little of it, was handled very professionally and it certainly didn't get out of hand. But most of us that have been here a long time know exactly how this has been handled in the past with other manufacturers. Mods would have been involved, hell, I might have been sent more legal papers telling me to shut the F up or else. Regardless, we all know there is a double standard with this situation, it's not the end of the world and it really doesn't affect whether or not we will go with M&R for our CTS purchase. I can see through it all and put things in the proper perspective as well as most of us can, but we also know how one or two dogs are not usually a problem, but a pack of dogs takes on something far greater/different than the individual dogs that make up the pack.
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Well, that's the first mention of trading in. You were flippant in your response as to what would happen with the epson machine on the first go around.
A bunch of machines being replaced all at once with retarded answers as to why and where doesn't exactly scream transparency. I assume the epsons
are being resold, perhaps a loophole in a c&d from Seiko?
I don't believe anyone asked me ever if I was trading or not and sorry if it wasn't obvious that my shop didn't need 2 CTS's? I was impressed with the Epson Unit. Over time we seen the Epson typical issues pop up here and there and some where frustrating to say the least, things like cartridges no longer reading they have ink, something even our 4880 does. For me considering the better unit had to hit the table at that point and M&R was there to make it easy. It's not that complicated. Everyone traded theirs and I have no idea if they are being resold or what, Rich would have to comment on that. I know that they weren't actively selling them and they were just left over from when they went on to the new unit. We are talking on a few units here folks, not some massive out break. I don't think or at least I don't remember anyone specifically dodging a open public question. I suppose its possible or was missed Feel free to point it out, otherwise I don't know that anyone owe'd you a explanation on why or transparency if you didn't even inquire. Food for thought...
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One statement I took exception to.... ONE! And I'm the one blowing things out of proportion? Hmmm
Brandt, I've seen a trend with your post/shout box post. Positives go into post on the forums, negative gripes go into the much lesser read and VERY much lesser archived Shout Box.
Maybe it's a coincidence and I'm perfectly ok accepting that, but it has been the trend that I noticed.
It's the way you did it, disrespectful if you ask me.
M&R or any company for that matter are not perfect. I've never said otherwise.
I didn't see any disrespect in his comment, it struck me as fair and true. Not disrespectful. The reaction from the group is different than when people tell Sony to stop with his blatant marketing. Why doesn't Sonny have the same group backing him up when he gets called out?
It seems like the double standard I have seen on this board so often is still there, mess with someone that owns the board or an M&R employee the backlash is great.
None of what I wrote above is to disrespect anyone its just casual observation nothing more, it seemed to me Dan got over defensive and retaliated strongly which caused this to really spin out of control. Some people less familiar with Dan or this board might see his over defensiveness as proof of guilt. His better coarse of action would probably have been to either ignore his comment or make a quick simple statement then let it go.
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Questions were asked and then glossed over and sugar coated answers were given.
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Brandt, if there was anyone "hanging on to this" why would they... why not just pop it out if they wanted to roast anyone?
Timing wasn't right id suspect.
It's when things are said that conflict with the evidence on the table that people will step up and say... "yeah, but what about this?" and point back to the evidence. No conspiracies... just facts and logic vs potential sweeping under the rug.
It might do some of you some good to stop assuming everything is so black ops or that there is so much to cover up. It could be that people just didn't think it wasn't a big deal because IT WASN'T. Did that ever occur to you? If you perceived it as a big deal maybe that's something YOU are creating outta thin air.
You also didn't buy your unit and then next week they came out with the new model and you thought "Son of a b!tch! I want that NEW model!" You bought your original one after it was already WAY discontinued. You in fact got one of the VERY last ones. So you knew it was an Epson head, and as you said, everyone knows what kind of problems you can have with Epson heads, you even had them yourself with your 4800. Yet you were still sold on that "inferior" (by my impression from you) model over the current one.
Yup, you are correct, the new model was out. I was sold on CTS, I suspected I would see some Epson traits, I hoped for less. Again as Ive pointed out id still keep that unit over film. But I didn't have to. So I didn't.
Being the person that you are and the kind of money you are willing to invest in "the best for your business", you bought a CH3d for christ sake, it just seems like something is missing in the story on why you would buy that product and then upgrade within a month or so.
I am sure it seems like something is missing for someone thats always looking for something to be missing. I've explained my main thing was it's basically a Epson printer, which I hadn't considered that much when I originally purchased, so I seen some negatives from that and I have the means to not have to deal with that. So I decided I wouldn't.
And EVERYONE bailed on that model at the same time... only thing we heard on the forums was "I'm excited about getting the new model!"... I think a lot of people were pretty shocked to see so many people that kept writing gushing reviews about their equipment all of a sudden switch from said equipment.
Everyone? We are talking about 3-5 units I believe, thats not even a faction of the i-Image machines out there. So everyone is a strong word.
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Brandt, you are the only one talking conspiracy here. None of us are. We just think of you guys as hardcore fan boys. No black ops deals... but you certainly think that we have secret meetings to time when we are gonna "blow the lid off slant model gate". ::)
Hey curious though... what kind of deal did you get on that trade-in?
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Well, that's the first mention of trading in. You were flippant in your response as to what would happen with the epson machine on the first go around.
A bunch of machines being replaced all at once with retarded answers as to why and where doesn't exactly scream transparency. I assume the epsons
are being resold, perhaps a loophole in a c&d from Seiko?
I don't believe anyone asked me ever if I was trading or not and sorry if it wasn't obvious that my shop didn't need 2 CTS's? I was impressed with the Epson Unit. Over time we seen the Epson typical issues pop up here and there and some where frustrating to say the least, things like cartridges no longer reading they have ink, something even our 4880 does. For me considering the better unit had to hit the table at that point and M&R was there to make it easy. It's not that complicated. Everyone traded theirs and I have no idea if they are being resold or what, Rich would have to comment on that. I know that they weren't actively selling them and they were just left over from when they went on to the new unit. We are talking on a few units here folks, not some massive out break. I don't think or at least I don't remember anyone specifically dodging a open public question. I suppose its possible or was missed Feel free to point it out, otherwise I don't know that anyone owe'd you a explanation on why or transparency if you didn't even inquire. Food for thought...
What happened with these units is very clear. Customer Service!!! First all the customers that had the Epson based i-image with issues were originally offered the I-Image ST and they balked due to price. All recognized the value to some degree but not in its entirety. After having the Epson based unit and seeing the benefits I don't believe anyone would go back to film. The problem with the machines were two. One the chips on the cartridges would not occasionally reset and as we had stopped production the rip supplier no longer supplied upgrades to the rip. As the computers upgrades automatically on the web issues between the upgrades software and existing rip became an issue. As such we decided to give the customers with issues a chance to upgrade to the machine we originally suggested. Hope that clears this part up for those who need it!
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Questions were asked and then glossed over and sugar coated answers were given.
I am sure you will show us the post and you may be right, for me it was no big deal, this thread has already made it a bigger deal than it was for us. For what its worth I do not recall myself being specifically asked anything that I didn't answer. Fact remains, id still take the old i-image over flim, but obviously I prefer the ST. It's faster and better rounded machine.
Brandt, you are the only one talking conspiracy here. None of us are. We just think of you guys as hardcore fan boys. No black ops deals... but you certainly think that we have secret meetings to time when we are gonna "blow the lid off slant model gate". ::)
Hey curious though... what kind of deal did you get on that trade-in?
The two of you sure pounced like you've discussed it, so thats the context of my post, which is more a joke than anything, I know humor is tough around here.
M&R gave me what I gave them for it. So I was out nothing but shipping/time/ink. I paid the difference for the ST. It's not complicated.
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Maybe that is just more evidence that it doesn't seem like what is being said equates the evidence on the table.
Sometimes the simplest explanation is the right one.
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Well, that's the first mention of trading in. You were flippant in your response as to what would happen with the epson machine on the first go around.
A bunch of machines being replaced all at once with retarded answers as to why and where doesn't exactly scream transparency. I assume the epsons
are being resold, perhaps a loophole in a c&d from Seiko?
I don't believe anyone asked me ever if I was trading or not and sorry if it wasn't obvious that my shop didn't need 2 CTS's? I was impressed with the Epson Unit. Over time we seen the Epson typical issues pop up here and there and some where frustrating to say the least, things like cartridges no longer reading they have ink, something even our 4880 does. For me considering the better unit had to hit the table at that point and M&R was there to make it easy. It's not that complicated. Everyone traded theirs and I have no idea if they are being resold or what, Rich would have to comment on that. I know that they weren't actively selling them and they were just left over from when they went on to the new unit. We are talking on a few units here folks, not some massive out break. I don't think or at least I don't remember anyone specifically dodging a open public question. I suppose its possible or was missed Feel free to point it out, otherwise I don't know that anyone owe'd you a explanation on why or transparency if you didn't even inquire. Food for thought...
What happened with these units is very clear. Customer Service!!! First all the customers that had the Epson based i-image with issues were originally offered the I-Image ST and they balked due to price. All recognized the value to some degree but not in its entirety. After having the Epson based unit and seeing the benefits I don't believe anyone would go back to film. The problem with the machines were two. One the chips on the cartridges would not occasionally reset and as we had stopped production the rip supplier no longer supplied upgrades to the rip. As the computers upgrades automatically on the web issues between the upgrades software and existing rip became an issue. As such we decided to give the customers with issues a chance to upgrade to the machine we originally suggested. Hope that clears this part up for those who need it!
Rich is dead on really, we wanted a ST and he was clear we'd be happier there. M&R was right on, but I gave the older cheaper unit a shot mostly over timing on our end, it was nearing our slow time and I didn't want to shell out a big cash purchase at that point in the year and we didn't wanna finance it either. Wish I had just listened to him from go. ST is the bomb.com and would probably give up our CH3D before id give it up. That's how important it is for us.
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Maybe that is just more evidence that it doesn't seem like what is being said equates the evidence on the table.
Sometimes the simplest explanation is the right one.
You are going to believe what you are going to believe. But that doesn't make you right though. Not everyone is hiding something.
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We have two Douthitt CTS units (the CTS-30 and CTS-52 if I recall correctly). The CTS-52 does our jumbo screens (up to 43"x52") and doubles as a backup for the CTS-30.
These units are simple, no frills units that do precisely what they were purchased to do. They are built like tanks. The software, as mentioned, is pretty spartan...but it does everything I could need it to do.
Douthitt support is unparalleled compared to the two prior units we had (Kiwo I-Jet2 and PlanetB Sprite)...as is the reliability, in my experience. I could get into greater detail if anyone wishes to private message me for specifics. I'm not looking to publicly smear a company with my own anecdotal evidence. That's just not fair.
But what I do know and will gladly say is that these machines function non-stop with very few issues...and there is yet to be a single issue that Mark fails to diagnose within seconds of a phone call--which he always picks up the phone for, from 7am EST until whenever the hell he goes home...which is after I go home, that's for sure. He responds to e-mails within minutes and is 99.9% of the time correct with his first diagnosis...of which is usually a very simple fix.
Sure, they aren't quite the Ferrari of features that the I-Jet2 was...but we didn't need a Ferrari, we needed a box truck. Some people may need the Ferrari.
I have seen his two units in operation and here is my take.
One of the first things that struck me is how well these machines were working in a really high screen environment. The machines are seriously built to be in a high production environment as he said, and seeing them in person proves it. I personally like the no thrills built to be work horses engineering. Its the same with our Brother GT541, you can practically crawl inside the machine to work on it and it is truly plug and play.
We are still going CTS but like Alan we kind of backed off because of things like head replacement costs, issues in the field, and plug and play capability. Just like Alan its not if but when we will pull the trigger.
Another thing I really hate to write about because it probably is pointless but since it has been said enough times in this thread I want to mention. I talked to a total of eight different machine users in the country and I was really really surprised at the issues I was hearing about on both obsolete machines and newer ones. None were really deal breaking problems but issues none the less. What surprised me is the absolute lack of any of this information ever mentioned by any owner ever on this forum. I confident no manufacturer is responsible for that it chalk it up more to pride and maybe some buyers remorse. Gilligan is right there is definitely a lack of that in the forums for what ever reason. It doesn't stop me from wanting one or from our company from pulling the trigger.
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This split needs a split
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Play devils advocate for a second. Let's pretend Anatol makes CTS units and 4 or 5 recent buyers got new machines shortly after they had the originals installed. Allow yourself to wonder, as honest as you can, how that scenario would have played out on this forum. Now look back to how the real issue was handled and discussed and let's talk about how the two would have been different, if indeed you feel they would have been different. If you think it would have been the same, then that's fine too, but I doubt anyone that's being honest with themselves would feel that way.
Since it was M&R, the discussion, what little of it, was handled very professionally and it certainly didn't get out of hand. But most of us that have been here a long time know exactly how this has been handled in the past with other manufacturers. Mods would have been involved, hell, I might have been sent more legal papers telling me to shut the F up or else. Regardless, we all know there is a double standard with this situation, it's not the end of the world and it really doesn't affect whether or not we will go with M&R for our CTS purchase. I can see through it all and put things in the proper perspective as well as most of us can, but we also know how one or two dogs are not usually a problem, but a pack of dogs takes on something far greater/different than the individual dogs that make up the pack.
Using Anatol as an example would certainly change the response, based on how they handled business in the past. It's interesting the spin here is basically people here are faulting M&R for making customers happy? Nothing to sweep under the rug, obviously the ST is a better unit and M&R pointed that out to each of us prior to us buying the older units. Instead of "told you so best wishes", they let us swap + difference in cost.
That's customer service most companies can only have wet dreams about.
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Play devils advocate for a second. Let's pretend Anatol makes CTS units and 4 or 5 recent buyers got new machines shortly after they had the originals installed. Allow yourself to wonder, as honest as you can, how that scenario would have played out on this forum. Now look back to how the real issue was handled and discussed and let's talk about how the two would have been different, if indeed you feel they would have been different. If you think it would have been the same, then that's fine too, but I doubt anyone that's being honest with themselves would feel that way.
Since it was M&R, the discussion, what little of it, was handled very professionally and it certainly didn't get out of hand. But most of us that have been here a long time know exactly how this has been handled in the past with other manufacturers. Mods would have been involved, hell, I might have been sent more legal papers telling me to shut the F up or else. Regardless, we all know there is a double standard with this situation, it's not the end of the world and it really doesn't affect whether or not we will go with M&R for our CTS purchase. I can see through it all and put things in the proper perspective as well as most of us can, but we also know how one or two dogs are not usually a problem, but a pack of dogs takes on something far greater/different than the individual dogs that make up the pack.
Using Anatol as an example would certainly change the response, based on how they handled business in the past. It's interesting the spin here is basically people here are faulting M&R for making customers happy? Nothing to sweep under the rug, obviously the ST is a better unit and M&R pointed that out to each of us prior to us buying the older units. Instead of "told you so best wishes", they let us swap + difference in cost.
That's customer service most companies can only have wet dreams about.
Nobody was or is accusing M&R of anything? That is something you are pulling out of thin air.
We all know if Anatol released the most bad a$$ unbeleviabley fast, super engineered, super super cheap CTS this board would explode with why it would suck and why no one should touch it with a ten foot pole. We all seen that happen with the Volt threads.
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Play devils advocate for a second. Let's pretend Anatol makes CTS units and 4 or 5 recent buyers got new machines shortly after they had the originals installed. Allow yourself to wonder, as honest as you can, how that scenario would have played out on this forum. Now look back to how the real issue was handled and discussed and let's talk about how the two would have been different, if indeed you feel they would have been different. If you think it would have been the same, then that's fine too, but I doubt anyone that's being honest with themselves would feel that way.
Since it was M&R, the discussion, what little of it, was handled very professionally and it certainly didn't get out of hand. But most of us that have been here a long time know exactly how this has been handled in the past with other manufacturers. Mods would have been involved, hell, I might have been sent more legal papers telling me to shut the F up or else. Regardless, we all know there is a double standard with this situation, it's not the end of the world and it really doesn't affect whether or not we will go with M&R for our CTS purchase. I can see through it all and put things in the proper perspective as well as most of us can, but we also know how one or two dogs are not usually a problem, but a pack of dogs takes on something far greater/different than the individual dogs that make up the pack.
Using Anatol as an example would certainly change the response, based on how they handled business in the past. It's interesting the spin here is basically people here are faulting M&R for making customers happy? Nothing to sweep under the rug, obviously the ST is a better unit and M&R pointed that out to each of us prior to us buying the older units. Instead of "told you so best wishes", they let us swap + difference in cost.
That's customer service most companies can only have wet dreams about.
Nobody was or is accusing M&R of anything? That is something you are pulling out of thin air.
We all know if Anatol released the most bad a$$ unbeleviabley fast, super engineered, super super cheap CTS this board would explode with why it would suck and why no one should touch it with a ten foot pole. We all seen that happen with the Volt threads.
That's IMO not a double standard, that's a earned response to how they have handled customers/equipment in the past. In other word's they have earned that response. They seem to be improving and I think most of us welcome that and respond accordingly as they improve. A lot of people with issue with Anatol aren't M&R customers now so its not like its all M&R people firing shots at them.
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Eh, the board obviously leans towards one manufacturer. I don't think anyone can deny that.
When sketchy info comes out about one of that manufacturers products that is quickly swept under
the rug it doesn't exactly reinforce transparency. (CSIC collection can be turned off under service mode 2 BTW)
Particularly if a single minor fault with any other manuf's product is blown the eff up.
Having one of the board owners as an employee of that manufacturer doesn't help either, a
situation best avoided IMO, and no offense to anyone involved, it is what it is.
I hate to say it but I can kinda see where asdf was coming from and how he ended up crazier than a chithouse rat.
The finger pointing towards anti-blue conspiracy has three fingers pointing back at it. Not unlike a homophobic republican.
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Eh, the board obviously leans towards one manufacturer. I don't think anyone can deny that.
When sketchy info comes out about one of that manufacturers products that is quickly swept under
the rug it doesn't exactly reinforce transparency. (CSIC collection can be turned off under service mode 2 BTW)
Particularly if a single minor fault with any other manuf's product is blown the eff up.
Having one of the board owners as an employee of that manufacturer doesn't help either, a
situation best avoided IMO, and no offense to anyone involved, it is what it is.
I hate to say it but I can kinda see where asdf was coming from and how he ended up crazier than a chithouse rat.
The finger pointing towards anti-blue conspiracy has three fingers pointing back at it. Not unlike a homophobic republican.
With that said I am done with this thread. Can't help so no need to waste any more time.
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This split needs a split
A great number of the splitees need a life! :P
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I would love to see more companies show case there equipment here, but we all know how that goes, don't know how much good info is coming from this thread yet, but maybe it will let people know they can talk about problems openly and hopefully not get bashed. I said long time ago I would not bring up my press company anymore because of some of what I'm reading now, again I do believe talking about problem's with popular equipment helps other in knowing how to deal with it or what to look out for. Don't really think people would stop buying from that company but just have some good info, but really what other equipment company do you all see here? I would really like to see more here because knowledge is power and food for thought. Nothing against the main company that's here more than any I like there style but lets get all those fella's here and talk about what can be without giving away company secrets.
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Could it be that it leans that way because the industry does?
To quote Gilligan:
Sometimes the simplest explanation is the right one.
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That the F150 is the biggest selling truck in America doesn't make it the best. In fact the evidence
points to quite the opposite. But don't dare tell that to the ford boys.
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That the F150 is the biggest selling truck in America doesn't make it the best. In fact the evidence
points to quite the opposite. But don't dare tell that to the ford boys.
Did I suggest anything about who was or wasn't best? Is this another one of posts your reading into?
I said the industry leans that way.
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Play devils advocate for a second. Let's pretend Anatol makes CTS units and 4 or 5 recent buyers got new machines shortly after they had the originals installed. Allow yourself to wonder, as honest as you can, how that scenario would have played out on this forum. Now look back to how the real issue was handled and discussed and let's talk about how the two would have been different, if indeed you feel they would have been different. If you think it would have been the same, then that's fine too, but I doubt anyone that's being honest with themselves would feel that way.
Since it was M&R, the discussion, what little of it, was handled very professionally and it certainly didn't get out of hand. But most of us that have been here a long time know exactly how this has been handled in the past with other manufacturers. Mods would have been involved, hell, I might have been sent more legal papers telling me to shut the F up or else. Regardless, we all know there is a double standard with this situation, it's not the end of the world and it really doesn't affect whether or not we will go with M&R for our CTS purchase. I can see through it all and put things in the proper perspective as well as most of us can, but we also know how one or two dogs are not usually a problem, but a pack of dogs takes on something far greater/different than the individual dogs that make up the pack.
Using Anatol as an example would certainly change the response, based on how they handled business in the past. It's interesting the spin here is basically people here are faulting M&R for making customers happy? Nothing to sweep under the rug, obviously the ST is a better unit and M&R pointed that out to each of us prior to us buying the older units. Instead of "told you so best wishes", they let us swap + difference in cost.
That's customer service most companies can only have wet dreams about.
Nobody was or is accusing M&R of anything? That is something you are pulling out of thin air.
We all know if Anatol released the most bad a$$ unbeleviabley fast, super engineered, super super cheap CTS this board would explode with why it would suck and why no one should touch it with a ten foot pole. We all seen that happen with the Volt threads.
That's IMO not a double standard, that's a earned response to how they have handled customers/equipment in the past. In other word's they have earned that response. They seem to be improving and I think most of us welcome that and respond accordingly as they improve. A lot of people with issue with Anatol aren't M&R customers now so its not like its all M&R people firing shots at them.
IMHO it is a double standard. A double standard by the community not the manufacturers. The talk should be about the machine and what it can or can't do, its merits and its cons. Anatol certainly has a shaky past but why take it out on something that could be excellent and extremely beneficial to us in the industry? Look at Boris's original thread he wanted qualified information from users about eh Spyder machine. He never asked for anything else, he never even mentioned he wanted to compare specs with any other machine, he wanted information by users about that specific machine. But through whatever whatever everything tail spanned to M&R and $hit tons of information from people that do not even own the machine he was inquiring about. Gilligan in a very sideways way pointed this out to Dan but he got lamb basted for it. If I was Boris I would have been a bit ticked off i was getting responses that completely ignored my original request and took me for granted that i even wanted to compare machines which i never even stated.
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Play devils advocate for a second. Let's pretend Anatol makes CTS units and 4 or 5 recent buyers got new machines shortly after they had the originals installed. Allow yourself to wonder, as honest as you can, how that scenario would have played out on this forum. Now look back to how the real issue was handled and discussed and let's talk about how the two would have been different, if indeed you feel they would have been different. If you think it would have been the same, then that's fine too, but I doubt anyone that's being honest with themselves would feel that way.
Since it was M&R, the discussion, what little of it, was handled very professionally and it certainly didn't get out of hand. But most of us that have been here a long time know exactly how this has been handled in the past with other manufacturers. Mods would have been involved, hell, I might have been sent more legal papers telling me to shut the F up or else. Regardless, we all know there is a double standard with this situation, it's not the end of the world and it really doesn't affect whether or not we will go with M&R for our CTS purchase. I can see through it all and put things in the proper perspective as well as most of us can, but we also know how one or two dogs are not usually a problem, but a pack of dogs takes on something far greater/different than the individual dogs that make up the pack.
Using Anatol as an example would certainly change the response, based on how they handled business in the past. It's interesting the spin here is basically people here are faulting M&R for making customers happy? Nothing to sweep under the rug, obviously the ST is a better unit and M&R pointed that out to each of us prior to us buying the older units. Instead of "told you so best wishes", they let us swap + difference in cost.
That's customer service most companies can only have wet dreams about.
Nobody was or is accusing M&R of anything? That is something you are pulling out of thin air.
We all know if Anatol released the most bad a$$ unbeleviabley fast, super engineered, super super cheap CTS this board would explode with why it would suck and why no one should touch it with a ten foot pole. We all seen that happen with the Volt threads.
That's IMO not a double standard, that's a earned response to how they have handled customers/equipment in the past. In other word's they have earned that response. They seem to be improving and I think most of us welcome that and respond accordingly as they improve. A lot of people with issue with Anatol aren't M&R customers now so its not like its all M&R people firing shots at them.
IMHO it is a double standard. A double standard by the community not the manufacturers. The talk should be about the machine and what it can or can't do, its merits and its cons. Anatol certainly has a shaky past but why take it out on something that could be excellent and extremely beneficial to us in the industry? Look at Boris's original thread he wanted qualified information from users about eh Spyder machine. He never asked for anything else, he never even mentioned he wanted to compare specs with any other machine, he wanted information by users about that specific machine. But through whatever whatever everything tail spanned to M&R and $hit tons of information from people that do not even own the machine he was inquiring about. Gilligan in a very sideways way pointed this out to Dan but he got lamb basted for it. If I was Boris I would have been a bit ticked off i was getting responses that completely ignored my original request and took me for granted that i even wanted to compare machines which i never even stated.
but don't it always end up this way
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Play devils advocate for a second. Let's pretend Anatol makes CTS units and 4 or 5 recent buyers got new machines shortly after they had the originals installed. Allow yourself to wonder, as honest as you can, how that scenario would have played out on this forum. Now look back to how the real issue was handled and discussed and let's talk about how the two would have been different, if indeed you feel they would have been different. If you think it would have been the same, then that's fine too, but I doubt anyone that's being honest with themselves would feel that way.
Since it was M&R, the discussion, what little of it, was handled very professionally and it certainly didn't get out of hand. But most of us that have been here a long time know exactly how this has been handled in the past with other manufacturers. Mods would have been involved, hell, I might have been sent more legal papers telling me to shut the F up or else. Regardless, we all know there is a double standard with this situation, it's not the end of the world and it really doesn't affect whether or not we will go with M&R for our CTS purchase. I can see through it all and put things in the proper perspective as well as most of us can, but we also know how one or two dogs are not usually a problem, but a pack of dogs takes on something far greater/different than the individual dogs that make up the pack.
Using Anatol as an example would certainly change the response, based on how they handled business in the past. It's interesting the spin here is basically people here are faulting M&R for making customers happy? Nothing to sweep under the rug, obviously the ST is a better unit and M&R pointed that out to each of us prior to us buying the older units. Instead of "told you so best wishes", they let us swap + difference in cost.
That's customer service most companies can only have wet dreams about.
Nobody was or is accusing M&R of anything? That is something you are pulling out of thin air.
We all know if Anatol released the most bad a$$ unbeleviabley fast, super engineered, super super cheap CTS this board would explode with why it would suck and why no one should touch it with a ten foot pole. We all seen that happen with the Volt threads.
That's IMO not a double standard, that's a earned response to how they have handled customers/equipment in the past. In other word's they have earned that response. They seem to be improving and I think most of us welcome that and respond accordingly as they improve. A lot of people with issue with Anatol aren't M&R customers now so its not like its all M&R people firing shots at them.
IMHO it is a double standard. A double standard by the community not the manufacturers. The talk should be about the machine and what it can or can't do, its merits and its cons. Anatol certainly has a shaky past but why take it out on something that could be excellent and extremely beneficial to us in the industry? Look at Boris's original thread he wanted qualified information from users about eh Spyder machine. He never asked for anything else, he never even mentioned he wanted to compare specs with any other machine, he wanted information by users about that specific machine. But through whatever whatever everything tail spanned to M&R and $hit tons of information from people that do not even own the machine he was inquiring about. Gilligan in a very sideways way pointed this out to Dan but he got lamb basted for it. If I was Boris I would have been a bit ticked off i was getting responses that completely ignored my original request and took me for granted that i even wanted to compare machines which i never even stated.
IMO Anatol or any manufacture is going to get the response they have earned, the way to change that (what you suggest is a double standard) is to change how they got on the wrong side of it. Respect is earned.
Dan didn't bring up M&R in his post, so while maybe it wasn't exactly what the OP requested in his first post it wasn't useless and was valuable information. It wasn't at all brand specific. Someone else chose to make it about brand and that's just the facts. IMO if anything now a double standard has been applied to Dan by that math. The man can't make a informative comment (without positive or negative or specifics to brand) without it being considered some how a way to sell more CTS units for M&R. Dan has a lot of great knowledge and I would suggest that regardless where he worked/works. It's a slippery slope this topic is going to start touching on.
We all need to get our Nascar jackets with logos on them so we can all know that coke sucks and Pepsi is why we won the race. (This is a joke, maybe).
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Coke does suck
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Coke does suck
So doesn't Pepsi
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lol, i love ordering a pepsi in a restaurant and when they say is coke ok? I say no and the look on their face is awesome
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfTl8-hyXJE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfTl8-hyXJE)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfTl8-hyXJE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfTl8-hyXJE)
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Coke and Pepsi are absolutely not the same thing, not even close in taste testing lol.
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Coke and Pepsi are absolutely not the same thing, not even close in taste testing lol.
Homie was having a bad day
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lol now im craving a Pepsi!
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I feel that just quickly glancing through last four pages of this split (btw. Split is a beautiful Mediterranean City in Croatia), was total waste of my time. How do you feel about participating? Is this working on/in your business? Better spent time than with spouse, kids, TV? Riding bike?
Only person whose participation I understand is Rich.
Let's do some googling for pics of Split, Croatia for a change.
Thank's Rich for clearing warranty question.
My english isn't really proficient, does "shout box" mentioned here stand for place where you argue and debate and split hair?
Does it mean the same as sandbox? Or just sounds similar?
Boris
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My two cents:
Any of you southeast guys that went CTS (Brandt, Diggler, etc), and now don't need your 17" film printers....DIBS.
(especially if you have the refillable carts in em, and working).
That is all. Carry on.
#takingadvantageofasituation
8)
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My two cents:
Any of you southeast guys that went CTS (Brandt, Diggler, etc), and now don't need your 17" film printers....DIBS.
(especially if you have the refillable carts in em, and working).
That is all. Carry on.
#takingadvantageofasituation
8)
Once I buy our pusher frame for our 25x36's ill be glad to sell you a epson lol
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My english isn't really proficient, does "shout box" mentioned here stand for place where you argue and debate and split hair?
Does it mean the same as sandbox? Or just sounds similar?
Boris
The shout box is a feature that allows members to talk in real time in a chat room type atmosphere.
It is probably minimized on your screen
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No one was considering that Dan was secretly trying to sell units.
I only said that he does have a vested interest in one unit over the other. If anyone wants to argue that then they are just dense and please raise your hand so we know who to sterilize. :)
As far as double standards go.
You guys want other manufactures to come and participate but it sure seems weird when one of the manufactures comes on his OWN section of the forum to bring up a new product that he is thinking about bringing to market (for a reasonable price)... then has a bunch of people saying "Oh, I'm interested"... then the Owner of M&R steps in, quotes the original post and says "Bah... DIY and go buy that crap at home depot for less!"
What was done about that? NOTHING... not a damn thing. The dude walked in the room and sh!t all over the manufactures new product and then walked out.
Don't get me wrong, when it was called to attention of what a double standard it was since he just recently bashed me for suggesting people DIY a parts washer for 10% the cost of a $2,000 system... THEN he said "oh, I didn't know who posted it, I didn't read the top post"... really, because you quoted the top post... that is LITERALLY the post that you read to hit the "quote" button to then trash their product and tell people to DIY it. A $45 product.
Oh, btw, they are considered competition in that they make accessories for M&R machines. Just some food for thought.
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Well, so much for this fading to black...looks like overtime is in order.
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No one was considering that Dan was secretly trying to sell units.
Then why bring up that he has a vested interest in selling machine brands that he didn't even mention? It doesn't add up. He didn't even bring up M&R, period. Do you miss that?
I only said that he does have a vested interest in one unit over the other.
Of course that's true, but his posting has zero relating to the company he works. IMO seems like you were itching for some drama which apparently actually is because you believe a double standard is going on. Why didn't you just man up and start a "double standard" thread and call out the mods. If Dan would have went full M&R sales pitch id be in your boat in relation to that thread, but he didn't. This board is full of really smart people, I doubt they need you to police it. Believe it or not.
As far as double standards go.
You guys want other manufactures to come and participate but it sure seems weird when one of the manufactures comes on his OWN section of the forum to bring up a new product that he is thinking about bringing to market (for a reasonable price)... then has a bunch of people saying "Oh, I'm interested"... then the Owner of M&R steps in, quotes the original post and says "Bah... DIY and go buy that crap at home depot for less!"
What was done about that? NOTHING... not a damn thing. The dude walked in the room and sh!t all over the manufactures new product and then walked out.
I don't recall the thread so I wont specifically comment on it. When you suggest "nothing was done" you are assuming that a mod saw it and decided to do nothing about it. Since you assume they saw it and did nothing your basically saying they are ignoring it because it was M&R. Which once again you are challenging someones character (the owners of this board) based on a stretch of circumstantial "evidence" you've dug up. This is ground breaking stuff. Have you called out specifically this particular situation to a mod and still "NOTHING" was done about it? This is a very easy yes or no answer. If you haven't, then all your doing it connecting dots that don't likely connect.
Let's remember, these guys don't have to provide this forum for you and you don't have to come here if you don't like how its run. Keep that in mind.
Don't get me wrong, when it was called to attention of what a double standard it was since he just recently bashed me for suggesting people DIY a parts washer for 10% the cost of a $2,000 system... THEN he said "oh, I didn't know who posted it, I didn't read the top post"... really, because you quoted the top post... that is LITERALLY the post that you read to hit the "quote" button to then trash their product and tell people to DIY it. A $45 product.
Was this another thread or same thread or what? I haven't been real active lately, sadly the drama continues here looks like.
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No one was considering that Dan was secretly trying to sell units.
Then why bring up that he has a vested interest in selling machine brands that he didn't even mention? It doesn't add up. He didn't even bring up M&R, period. Do you miss that?
HE BROUGHT IT UP... it's in black and white on the first page (Ok blue and white... interesting j/k).
I'm not in sales and make no additional $ on promoting one over the other....
What machine is he referring to when he says it doesn't matter if you buy "one over the other"?
Everyone says his whole post wasn't about selling M&R, then why bring that up?
Don't get me wrong it's a "factual" statement in that he doesn't make "additional" money on promoting one over another. But at the end of the day his paycheck comes from them selling "one over the other". So to that extent, I simply said that his statement wasn't completely accurate.
Hell, if Israel (guy that works, and I think started, with NuArc division) comes in here and starts talking about automatic presses, I would STILL suggest that he has a vested interest in you buying an M&R press over any other brand. I'm not saying it negates what he says, I'm just saying that he shouldn't (and probably wouldn't) come in here suggesting it didn't matter to him which press you buy.
I would be mad as hell if I had a computer tech go out and tell a person on the street to go get their shirts from one of my competitors. And technically that guy REALLY has no vested interest in how many shirts I sell as he works for a completely different company of mine. BUT my employees better be pushing all of my businesses when someone has a need for something we do over the other guy. It's all about family.
If that isn't obvious, again, raise your hand and step up to the line for your sterilization shots.
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6 pages.
Jesus freaking Christ.
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6 pages.
Jesus freaking Christ.
Almost comical right?!
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Kev, instead of a full...you know....sterilization....might I suggest just DEFLATING all but one of their balls from 12.5 PSI to say...something just over 10 pounds?
Makes them easier to grab and hold on to in cold or wet weather.
Or so I heard.
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Kev, instead of a full...you know....sterilization....might I suggest just DEFLATING all but one of their balls from 12.5 PSI to say...something just over 10 pounds?
Makes them easier to grab and hold on to in cold or wet weather.
Or so I heard.
As long as they aren't reproducing, I'm ok with that. ;)
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No one was considering that Dan was secretly trying to sell units.
Then why bring up that he has a vested interest in selling machine brands that he didn't even mention? It doesn't add up. He didn't even bring up M&R, period. Do you miss that?
HE BROUGHT IT UP... it's in black and white on the first page (Ok blue and white... interesting j/k).
I'm not in sales and make no additional $ on promoting one over the other....
What machine is he referring to when he says it doesn't matter if you buy "one over the other"?
Everyone says his whole post wasn't about selling M&R, then why bring that up?
Don't get me wrong it's a "factual" statement in that he doesn't make "additional" money on promoting one over another. But at the end of the day his paycheck comes from them selling "one over the other". So to that extent, I simply said that his statement wasn't completely accurate.
Hell, if Israel (guy that works, and I think started, with NuArc division) comes in here and starts talking about automatic presses, I would STILL suggest that he has a vested interest in you buying an M&R press over any other brand. I'm not saying it negates what he says, I'm just saying that he shouldn't (and probably wouldn't) come in here suggesting it didn't matter to him which press you buy.
I would be mad as hell if I had a computer tech go out and tell a person on the street to go get their shirts from one of my competitors. And technically that guy REALLY has no vested interest in how many shirts I sell as he works for a completely different company of mine. BUT my employees better be pushing all of my businesses when someone has a need for something we do over the other guy. It's all about family.
If that isn't obvious, again, raise your hand and step up to the line for your sterilization shots.
He didn't mention M&R in his initial post period which is the context of my post. What's obvious is that you are witch hunt like always for your own entertainment and desire to be apart of or actually create drama. That's how it looks anyway.
First mention of M&R was Boris, the snip your calling out below was a reply to that:
I'm not in sales and make no additional $ on promoting one over the other....
Maybe you've confused yourself in your arguing.
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I simply asked that you raise your hand.
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Really boys? Bringing us all down. Think I'll take a hiatus here. I'm on some Printmaking forums that are awesome, informative, and well...................mature. Only have so much time to be on internet and this appears be not worth it for a few reasons.
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Really boys? Bringing us all down. Think I'll take a hiatus here. I'm on some Printmaking forums that are awesome, informative, and well...................mature. Only have so much time to be on internet and this appears be not worth it for a few reasons.
Then again, you could just steer clear of this particular time waster...I have!
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Really boys? Bringing us all down. Think I'll take a hiatus here. I'm on some Printmaking forums that are awesome, informative, and well...................mature. Only have so much time to be on internet and this appears be not worth it for a few reasons.
Then again, you could just steer clear of this time particular waster...I have!
I'll vote for this option, thank you.
It's mildly entertaining, so with a little popcorn and some butter and salt, I can take it or leave it.
But please Tony, your departure wouldn't be good for yours truly or anybody else, even temporarily.
I pick up nuggets, (sometimes buried deep, okay...) from all you guys, current combatants included.
This too shall pass.
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Why do people have to be so sensitive and threaten to leave over a thread nobody is forcing them to look at? That's about as ridiculous as half of this current thread in my opinion.
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I don't like drama, so I'm gonna threaten to leave the forum in a very melodramatic fashion.
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I don't like drama, so I'm gonna threaten to leave the forum in a very melodramatic fashion.
No.
You won't.
But if I'm anywhere near your shop, I'm NOT raising my hand.
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I don't like drama, so I'm gonna threaten to leave the forum in a very melodramatic fashion.
Don't let the door hit you where the good lord split you,
Just kidding. Had to throw an old TV show reference in their, lets see who got it. Kind of like selling me a burger today that I will pay for on Tuesday.
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I wasn't talking about me... I was paraphrasing other people with similar attitudes.
It's teh interwebz, if you don't see drama, you aren't paying attention. ;)
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"Every Pepsi Refreshes The World"
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One of the boards smartest people here say's he's leaving and now he's basically being mocked. Brilliant.
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Brandt... own up. You are at least equally responsible for the 7 page fiasco that this thread has become.
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Brandt... own up. You are at least equally responsible for the 7 page fiasco that this thread has become.
Equal? That seems a bit off, but I have certainly participated a good bit AFTER a page and change of drama.
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What bad things would happen if this thread stopped right now? Just curious.
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What bad things would happen if this thread stopped right now? Just curious.
Nothing...But you must first forward this chain thread to 7 people. :o :o
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What bad things would happen if this thread stopped right now? Just curious.
Nothing at all... it should have stopped at the top of page 1!
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(http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/One+does+not+simply+start+a+conga+line+build+me_6e65ea_3153624.jpg)
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what ever newbie finds this thread will sure get his/her fill of good non information or better yet how to argue worthless topics :P
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I like Burger King over Mcdonalds
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In a final attempt at clarification, my including the post of "I'm not in sales and make no additional $ on promoting one over the other...." was simply to make it known to those who didn't know me or my background, to let them know I'm not a sales person, in sales for any company, and make no additional $ (referring to commission) of any kind. It was an honest attempt.
It may not have been the "best choice of words" and then again, for some it was clear and I'm taking the stance now, that I'm not taking a side on what anyone thinks of it. For some, I was wrong if not just incorrect, and for others, There was nothing wrong with it. It is, what it is..and now, forever will be. I should have remembered one of the biggest thing I try to live by, and it's that everyone is different. 10 people can get 5 different meanings from the same words used in a post. WORDS are difficult for every person to comprehend the exact or intended meaning behind them sometimes. Again, my words of choice may not have been the clearest or most specific to all. I've tried to clarify my meaning, and still some may even find something wrong with that. So be it but really, all of this?
I wanted it split because I didn't want THIS stuff to take away from or be left in Boris's post. He deserves a clean reply without dram included.
As I saw it grow this way, I knew we can't just delete this thread...heaven forbid, the conspiracy theories would fly for sure. (remember the last time I fat fingered a thread once from a post Inkman made about needing info on DTS. I started to post...but then felt I couldn't. I can't even tell you all facts that I know, I can't give you (my experience) with DTS in general, or any specific facts about M&R openly (as one of the owners here), so I will leave that to Rich and anyone else he sees fit. I knew at that time, if I posted facts about what I knew, (for me), it would just look like I was only promoting M&R and biased no matter what I said. So, I deleted (my post that I was in the process of making) ..and I fumbled something and LOCKED the thread. Once it opened back up.... Giligan and a few chime in instantly fearing the worst "conspiracy theories".
Now, I want to point out, that I don't hold anything against them for that. They are who they are. We are all people here on earth with imagination and experiences from different perspectives and rightfully so, sometimes the conspiracy theories can be true, so many are leery of whats said. We can't blame them for that. For me, I try to make it a point, or maybe it just comes natural for me, to give people the benefit of the doubt, first and foremost. I don't know if that makes me less skilled, less prepared for the worst at business or not. Maybe it does. I can't expect that same treatment from other people tho. I know that. I know it's just not realistic.
So I guess this makes it really true. I was warned this stuff could happen no matter my innocence or not, but I ignored those who warned me. I felt I (we) were above that here. I wanted us to be (above that) here, but in the end, we are all made up of different experiences and behaviors based on those experiences, therefor, left very colorful at times.
So, in a nut shell, some think that what I said, was "disingenuous". I kinda took offence to that since I really looked at that word and definition, I felt it was calling me a liar or that the statement was dishonest. Everything I did say, was indeed honest and accurate. Again, I am not in sales, and I do not receive any additional $ as in (commission) for promotions of any type. Sure, I work there ans Sure, if they sell more, I stay employed. The real fact is, I could be fired a year from now or leave the CO and work at some screen print shop...and I'd still be giving you the same type of information 3 years later (only with more knowledge at that time I hope). I'm made aware, that having to point that out...makes me look guilty to some. The feeling I had of being called disingenuous was on me, that's (my reaction) to the word.
I took it like this. If any one of you were to make a reply, stating how you would do something pertaining to art but then said (I'm not an artist) so take it for what it's worth". We've read that a 100 times on here right? Based on this thread, if this is true, that those affiliated with something they are replying about... some feel that you all shouldn't say that, (and you need to be called out on it)....since "you can really be considered an artist by some standards since you've been doing your own art in your shop for a long time and your statement is disingenuous. You can apply the same scenario to HOW WOULD YOU PRINT THIS? post or any of it. Sure, I realize my examples above are not THAT strong, but likewise, I also feel that lumping my words in as disingenuous is not THAT strong.
I just felt like saying, "Do I really, REALLY need to go that far? Do I really need to look further down the road, to be that careful, and look for every little detail of the "possibility" of something that can be construed" so as to make everyone so happy with what I say, what WE say, so that I'm protected in all areas at all times? Really?
Leaving this post and letting you all air your theories, opinions and facts, as you can see...simply grows even more ugly on this topic. This is an ugly thread. A black cloud hangs over. We don't have many black clouds on this forum, and I'm saddened as a result of this, but I've learned a few things and for that, there is nothing wrong.
I have been mistakenly leaning on or relying on my credibility here and assumed those who I have always considered "my people" would know me and know that I would give them nothing but sincere feedback with respect to all involved. I can't say that I will NEVER give feedback on post pertaining to DTS, but I can assure you, it will be much less from here on out. If you want to know something, you can come to me directly. Thats not because I feel any one of you are in the wrong, just that this thread has made it more clear to me, that people in general, will not allow others to participate openly due to their affiliation (even for me, in my own forum). {edit}, Maybe I should clarify and say that (Co affiliation offering information to the industry) is not expected to be treated as acceptable by all people. for various reasons throughout history. I don't know how one would describe this accurately. Maybe that should have been common sense, but I guess, internally, I was trying to be blind to that.
As for transparency in my signature, I never gave it any thought, as I feel that on forums, as I have been for many years, I am just Dot-Tone-Dan. I have already added it in to my list of accomplishments in my signature.
It seems we have finished this thread out and I want to thank everyone for speaking their mind. Even if I (or we) disagree, you can speak your mind. Don't be surprised tho, if we speak back and/or disagree or get proved wrong. Who wants to go on thinking they are right..when they are not. Not me, so prove me wrong any time. Thats what we do here, and not everyone will always be happy about it. ;) Just remember to be polite.
I'd appreciate it now, Since we've gotten a lot off our chest, if you allow me to lock this thread, simply because I don't want THIS one to go on and on, or years later someone brings it back to life again by replying in 2016. Lets allow it to die and stay dead. If the majority still has issues with it being locked, PM the owners and we will discuss it with you.
Thank you all
Dan