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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: shirtguy on January 27, 2015, 10:26:44 AM
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I wish I had read the post from another member before my latest deal with Don Fenno. As others have said I've bought many things from Don for many years and always trusted him. He's always been there and followed up after the sale.However something is now wrong.
I sent a deposit for a dryer in mid sept 2014. Weeks went by with no dryer and very poor communication from Don. When i could get him on the phone it was always something."Painter is sick... Running late.... Sorry for not getting back as i've been busy... etc.. etc..." After 3 months of excuses I told Don i found another dryer and please return my deposit. He said "yes" but when i called him a week later he said he had another problem because someone bounced a ck so he's have mine next week. I tried to reach him a few more times and he has not returned a call in weeks.
I have 30 plus emails with very few responses. I've called him countless times with no replies. This is a guy that in the past that would reply to a email in mins/hours so it's not Normal. I think we will hear from others with similar situations.
Worst part now is i missed the time to get a dryer and install HVAC before the snow and we are getting 2 feet today.
Marc Brown
the shirt factory
salem NH
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not a bad idea to check here for advice before sending money, lots of experience and knowledge here. I know its a little late now, sorry for your loss.
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We had a very similar situation with Don last year for a used dryer. We did end up getting the dryer, in various states of disrepair which he did eventually make good on. But the process, which could have been taken care of in a week or two, took over 4 months to just get the damned thing in our shop and another 2 months until he addressed all of the many problems. (No buttons, lights or knobs!?? At all!?)
I wasn't in charge of that transaction, thankfully. But from where I stood it seemed like he was a middleman operating on a shoestring budget. Which makes sense given the amount of money a middleman stands to make with items like this.
All in all, after months of headaches, we got a damned great deal on a damned good dryer...it just took months of tooth pulling, hand holding and outright badgering over phone and email to get that good deal.
Like I said, I wasn't in charge of that transaction but I highly doubt the person who was would ever voluntarily engage in business with Don Fenno ever again. I know I certainly wouldn't.
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damn, I bought some stuff from Don, I thought he was a stand up guy...He's a member here too so he will see this...in fact, I'll make sure of it.
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damn, I bought some stuff from Don, I thought he was a stand up guy...He's a member here too so he will see this...in fact, I'll make sure of it.
I heard that from many people prior to our dealings with him. As such I believe it. As OP said specifically, it doesn't seem normal.
I'm sure there are reasons. It's just a pain to deal with one more budget and deadline ruining factor when already juggling so many others...all while trying to maintain as much production as possible so you can afford to do the project in the first place.
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thx for the comments. I had outstanding transactions with Don in the past and would have never ever thought this would happen. That is partly why i waited so calmly through the last 4 months. I really wanted to believe him. I wish i had seen it coming . The excuses he used just didn't add up and there was always a new excuse.
you know the saying.. "fool me once shame on you. fool me twice shame on me"
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Unfortunately, and I don't say this lightly, the used equipment brokers in our industry lack a lot of attributes that make for good business owners and operators. I have read a lot of good comments about a few brokers over the years, but the VAST majority of them don't have the character that you'd expect them to have when doing a lot of deals using the honor system. I understand that business is not easy, trust me, I've thought about doing it due to the extremely low number of trustworthy brokers out there, but I know I'd not be that good at it because of numerous personal flaws. I've had conversations with several high character new equipment guys and I'm sure they're biased, but I've been told of numerous deals gone bad where the new equipment guys have had to come in and pick up the pieces.
As I said earlier, there are issues that are out of the broker's control, even one of the guys I respect a ton in this industry has unhappy customers so nobody is perfect. With that being said, it sure does seem like our industry suffers from poor used equipment brokers more than others do. It used to be looked down upon to be a used car salesman, many years ago, and luckily there are plenty of ethical companies selling used cars, I just wish our industry could turn around that stereotype like the car industry has.
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I thik that one of the problems with this business, when a seemingly upright broker has issues, is no cushion of cash on which to fall back upon when a deal goes south.
When another client's bounced check affects the ability to repair a previous broken deal, it gets close to a Ponzi scheme as the basis of the business.
One should not need that money from Peter, to make good with Paul.
I see now why some areas require licences and bonding and insurance for some businesses.
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Buying used sometimes takes alot of luck on both parts that the actual person selling thru the broker is telling all the truth to the broker and that's what they have to go on unless they go out and see the equipment for themsleves. A few years back we went to a used car lot to buy a car for my son, found the car we/he liked and this company is very well known in our area and does a ton of biz really good company. Well we take the paperwork to our bank for the loan and they tell us they can't loan money on this car, they pulled a car fax and found the car had been in a wreck (front end damage... was fixed) and the dealer knew nothing about this. I'm sure some very good broker's get caught with there pants down like this at times and are really not trying to scam, but getting a little scammed them self, but if your going to be a middle man you better try and have all your ducks in a roll.
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I thik that one of the problems with this business, when a seemingly upright broker has issues, is no cushion of cash on which to fall back upon when a deal goes south.
When another client's bounced check affects the ability to repair a previous broken deal, it gets close to a Ponzi scheme as the basis of the business.
One should not need that money from Peter, to make good with Paul.
I see now why some areas require licences and bonding and insurance for some businesses.
Bringo.
We had a scenario akin to ScreenDan's with our last dryer. I trust and respect the person we bought it from (it was not Don Fenno, whom I have not done a transaction with) and do not doubt they are honest and mean well. All the same we got screwed into the previous owners running a dryer for months that we literally owned. Lost a ton of cash and time having to move our old dryer, install (running 100a of 3ph is not cheap to setup) then pull it, reconfig hvac and wiring and finally install the new dryer. It was delivered in the condition expected and was still a good buy in the end even with all the baloney with getting it into the damn shop.
I'm not against used equipment but more and more I see that transactions end up coming very close or matching the price of just going new from the get go.
Sometimes things happen that are out of the broker's control and I understand that but they need to have some reserves to deal with situations like that, just like any business does. We are still owed a few thou from that transactions and honestly, can't get even a payment on that after over a year of being open and communicative about it.
What bothers me about these stories/situations is not that they happen but that the buyer is left standing there, that's just bad business. These folks know that shops are buying used not just to save some money but for immediate availability which, in some cases, may be far more valuable then the cash savings and that needs to be respected.
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I have no doubt there are some great brokers out there, but in my mind it's another link in the chain to possibly have trouble with, and often another level of mark-up between you and the seller.
The good ones do a good service for both buyer and seller, the bad ones give the whole industry a bad name, not unlike used car lots.
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One thing to keep in mind is you are buying used, so expect some BS to go with it. Hell, you can expect some BS buying new, so expect extra buying used, no matter how good the broker is.
We just installed a used Sprint. It was in exchange plus cash for our old dryer. As was the deal with the shop our old one was going to, as was the one our dryer was coming from. It was like a 5 dryer game of musical chairs with the broker, but it all worked out. However, and anyone who's pulled one dryer out and inserted another, it's like changing the engine out on your car while on the freeway. You can't pull out equipment in production till everything is set.
Now add other shop's schedules into the mix. The potential for headaches increases 10 fold.
Moral? Try to buy new, or if buying used, try to buy one that's uninstalled already and try to put your eyes and hands on it in person before you pay out.
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I bought all new for my new shop for that exact reason. Less headaches.
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or know who you are buying from and it helps to be handy...
I bought a new oven, DTG and a few other things.
I've purchased a used auto and our CTS...both went seamlessly because there was no broker getting in the way. I'd do it all over again too.
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I'll handle a few headaches for the $100K + I've saved buying used so far, but yes, there are challenges with used gear.
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Spot Color Supply has been the only broker for used equipment that I didn't find completely scam-y or just rubbed me the wrong way.
I even recently purchased a dryer used that they weren't even involved with, purchase wise, but I still had them help me move it and they charged me next to nothing. Brannon and Scott are stand up guys.
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We get asked by many of our customers if we sell used equipment or want to help sell their used equipment. I typically just ask them to email what they have, and if I hear something I forward the email to the potential buyer. I always say in my email; "any further questions on this you should work with the seller, and I suggest have a tech check it out."; and stay completely out of it. IMO there is too much that go wrong with trying to broker used equipment, and much of it would be out of a brokers control to fix if it the deal goes south.
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The bulk of our equipment has been bought used; nothing without being seen first, money is 50% down, 50% when it is delivered. We have a guy in the New England area, but I never get a good feeling from him... Fortunately we know our way around the stuff and can pretty much tell the condition when we check it out.
Steve
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I am posting regarding used vs new, I am not going chime in regarding anyone. Used is a great buy if you are careful and knowledgeable of the machine you are purchasing. Remember the broker did not manufacture the machine, the specifications need to come from the original manufacturer. If you ask a broker (or owner) specifics of speed or capabilities, you will likely get a "best guess", the correct information would come from a Google search of the machine at the manufacturer's website.
Dryers are stupid expensive brand new, this one one place where real money can be saved in the used market. You owe it to yourself to personally inspect the machine your are considering, if you can't travel it is worth the money to send a competent technician or your mechanic to look the unit over prior to sending money. Regarding used presses, send your lead printer with some art (or screens) on a road trip, allow 8 hours to spend with the machine. Test print it with your art (screens). New presses are often near $100k or more, unless you are already independently wealthy, used machines are not a bad decision. Slow months come, lease payments don't take a vacation in these months, consider how you will survive the off months.
In general treat the money you are spending like purchasing a used (or new) car, take it around the block, look under the hood and ask a lot of questions. Due diligence is important when dealing with a broker (or any seller) ask your competitors, ink salesmen or a message board about the seller before handing any cash over. Sometimes people set themselves up for a good f****ng.
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Update
I got a voicemail from Don same day i posted this about him.
His words not mine "working feverishly to get you the deposit back"
that was 2 weeks ago. I'm not sure but i thought feverishly meant fast? It's been one excuse/lie after another. Every dog has there day.
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Just a update. When i posted this In Jan 2015 i got a voice mail from don "i'm working feverishly to get your deposit returned"
5 months later and now and (9 months since he cashed my check) and no money has been returned. He's actively sending sale listings of dryers and presses. I never got mine. Buyer Beware so it doesn't happen to you.
Marc
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Sounds like you need to pay his kneecaps a visit with a bat.
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Hello my name is Junior I own a screen printing and embroidery company in southern California
I have a business partner name ray also we are reaching out to warm people about a machine broker
That goes by the name “Don Fenno” we made a deal with him a few months ago with a machine that
He was going to get us for 70,000 so we wired him 63,000 to his account well it’s been more than 2 months
He told us that the machine owner did not want to sell his machine anymore so we ask for out money back
Now he is just giving us the run around with lies after lies at this point we are starting a lawsuit against him
And will be posting on all forums about what he has done to us and others we recently talk to another person
That he has done this to.. Don't know if this will help me recover my money but at least warn people of the kind
Of business man that he is a lier a thief.. We are honest and hard working people that are only trying to better our
Company .. I know a lot of people might not agree and thinks he is a honorable and honest man but we
Have plenty of prof contracts and email from him to prove it...
Please don’t be the next person that this happens to
Don't trust don fenno
And for the record it was Steve Vermillion who recommended him who know will not answer our calls...
Thanks for taking the time to read this ...
Junior Vice President
Ray President
www.bestinkandthread.com (http://www.bestinkandthread.com)
jr@bestinkandthread.com
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1. I'm sorry that you didn't drop by here sooner and would have seen the heads up. I'd want more than the word of one guy (who now seems just as flaky) before my next point.
2. There are not too many folks I'd send $63,000 for a sight-unseen untested used machine (let alone one not even in their possession)
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i wish i would have research the forums first so now i am trying to let as many people know as i can so they don't get screw by him like we are right now..
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Hopefully you'll be glad you did and become a regular here for other things. Being the "Best" in both ink and thread, I'm sure you have a lot to offer. Welcome aboard!
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How in the world do you send that kind of money to a person without making sure what your getting, at least have put your hand on the equipment, seen it with your own eye's. 63K ain't the kind of money I'm willing to let go of without unless it's with a well known company like Anatol, M&R, Workhorse, MHM, Sroq etc...I wouldn't trust a jack leg ass broker with that kind of money for nothing in the world.
darryl
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We've bought both new and used, but never from a broker. They make my "spider sense" tingle...
Steve
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he was recommended by a local broker that we deal with from time to time so we trusted his word and the deal look so good that we just jump into it but that will never happen again now we hope we can move forward and and keep focus on our business we are still going to blow up the social media and forums to warn people from crooks like him and hope nobody falls into the situation that we did...