TSB
screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: Griffin on February 06, 2015, 04:21:13 PM
-
I have been running static frames since my first print. I have read quite a bit about roller frames being wonderful and how people who use them would never go back to a static frame. I am at the point that I am tired of buying static frames that come out of the box with loose tension or ones that lose tension rapidly! I will also admit that I occasionally do something stupid and rip a mesh... I know, Im the only one who has ever done that! My rising issue is by the time I send my bare frames off to be re-meshed and get them back I can order new static screens for about $1 more and have them in 2-3 days. So, I am interested in advancing to roller frames! Please tell me why this is a great idea and I am a moron for waiting so long, or let me know why i am just a swell off with statics. Also, If i should go ahead and switch over, wat brand do you recommend? I would prefer to start with a few used frames to get the hang of meshing and staying on budget.
-
You'll get 10 different answers on this one. I am a roller frame guy but I like stretching the screens myself so I know that they will be properly tensioned and I won't have to worry about something that is out of my control. Every single step in our shop is faster with properly tensioned screens over standard mesh count statics at low tension, but that's not surprising. It all depends on what you want to achieve and how fast you want to achieve it. Millions of high quality prints are done each year with crappy screens, but I now the headaches involved with using them and I won't deal with them.
-
My main issue is registration and off contact.. If my UB is a great screen and I end up with a top color on a less tight screen
I seem to have an issue with off contact and artwork that seems to shift at one end of the design only.
-
I've been a roller frame honk here for many years, but I used statics for several years, and now we're on rollers for about 4 years with shurloc EZ frames for a few years in between so I feel that I have a pretty good handle on the pros and cons of each. It really does depend on what you want to get out of a screen. You can get from California to New York any number of different ways, and some ways are better, some are faster, etc. I can say that a large number of our on-press issues disappeared when we started using properly tensioned screens and our setup times were cut in half in the beginning, and since perfecting everything, using thin thread mesh and roller frames with a regi system our setup times are about 1/5 of what they were 5 years ago.
-
In full disclosure I have handled statics new and well used but I have never printed with one, we started out with rollers, it simply made sense so WARNING what I am about to detail comes from study more than practice.
In my opinion and perspective....... screen printing is dirt simple.
All you really have to do is get about 50 individually simple elements all to work perfectly together in the right order every time, simple, right ? Think of the entire process as a 50 link chain. All of the links are really simple and all interdependent on all other links, let one of those simple links weaken or worse yet fail the chain fails.
There are a series of elements that all come together with the important chain link that is the print screen.
Like someone said you will get many opinions but I think all will agree the screen is where the rubber hits the road.
Off contact
registration
the quality of the EOM component, tight screen vs loose screen
stretch / movement of the mesh before the squeegee and on and on there are many more examples that could be applied here.
If you employ a well tensioned / maintained roller frame you gain the ability to control a couple of major factors in the printing process.
No 1 you eliminate a number of the bad elements associated with statics, think of it as taking that 50 link chain and changing the chain such that instead of requiring 50 links to make the chain work you can now make the same chain work with 40 links.
No 2 this is really the big advantage of rollers ............ when the static frame changes over time and drops 10, 12 or even more Newtons all from a starting point that was not all that great to start with. It is like adding bad links back into the chain that complicate and weaken the chain. When a roller frame begins to give up some of he fine tuning "adding bad links" again into the chain you can instantly retune out the bad links. Furthermore you can manage how far you want the fine tuning to slide narrowing the margin of variables to whatever suits your process ...you control the migration of bad links back into the process so to speak. Instead of sliding 12 newtons you can limit the relaxation 2 or 3 newtons in both weave directions if that suits your process and do it in your shop in only a few minutes .
Hope this madness made some sense but at the end of the day rollers kick a$$ and take names.
mooseman
-
I went opposite most people. I started with rollers and eventually transitioned to all static.
We exclusively use static S-Mesh frames, mostly 150/48, a few 225/40, probably an 80/20% division. When they tear or wear out, we cut the mesh out and either repurpose the frame or sell it and buy new.
For the type of work we do, the cost and upkeep of rollers simply wasn't worth the benefit they provided.
I know, I know, heresy.
-
Hope this madness made some sense but at the end of the day rollers kick a$$ and take names.
mooseman
Thank you for the long reply. You clarified the general idea I had of rollers. I have decided to start purchasing rollers instead of statics from this point on. My question now is what kind of rollers are suggested. Do i need a table to stretch the screens or can I manage them without one for now?
-
My question now is what kind of rollers are suggested. Do i need a table to stretch the screens or can I manage them without one for now?
You don't need a table, but after stretching screens manually for a bit you'll definitely want one. I started off using just the wrench, and quickly realized it wasn't very effective in regards to time or stress levels. After a few months of that I picked up a used Sefar Acme stretcher which gets the job done much quicker and easier. I still re-tension using the wrench due to a flaw in the Acme system but that side of things goes pretty quick regardless.
If you can wing it, I'd recommend one of the Shur-Loc accelerator setups, as well as their panels. Rollers require much more time and effort than a static frame and by using a stretching table and panels it will cut that time at least in half. If you're planning on using S-Mesh go with MZX frames as it doesn't require super high tension. If you're using standard mesh you may want to upgrade to the sturdier M3's.
-
I will certainly get a table eventually! My business is still growing in size as well as financially. As for the mesh I am planning to use, no clue! I do believe I am leaning towards mesh panels to make things easier.
-
I've been a roller frame user for 25 years now and work their booths at trade shows so my opinion of them is biased.
The only thing a static frame is good for is making a stretching table for your new roller frames or framing your best prints to hang on the wall with.
Why to use them, consistent tension each and every time you take the screen from your racks. From day 1 to day 1000 if you want 35 newtons, you have 35 newtons.
Think of them as tires on your car. If your tires were static, as the pressure dropped so does your range of motion. the lower the pressure, the lower your gas mileage is. the lower the pressure the harder it is to drive around town and eventually, you have to replace the tire simply because the pressure is to low to drive on even when the tread pattern still has plenty of life left. Even worse, you have to leave your car with some guy across town who uses special tools for a few days to weeks before you get it back.
Now some people have made tires that are designed to run around town at low pressure for a long time. They try and sell them to you at a higher cost with the hidden message that lower pressure tires are easier and better for you than properly inflated tires simply because they come pre-mounted on special rims and don't require any special tools to mount them. Just like the other tires, they too slowly lose pressure and require replacement well before their time is up. You still need to leave your car with the guy across town, who uses special tools to mount them.
Now your tires are roller frames. every time you get gas, you check the pressure yourself and keep them at the optimal pressure all the time. You get great gas mileage, you can drive all over town day in and day out and you only have to replace them when the tread is completely worn out. You go in the back of the shop where you have a rack full of tires, your own set of special tools and in less than 15 minutes you're back to driving with a properly inflated tire.
You can use those new special low pressure tires if you like as they use the same special tools you already have in back and fit every make and model of rims on the market.
now for all you smart asses out there who say.. what about a 'nail' blowing a hole in your tire.. well those running low pressure can make it home, and even keep going for days until you finally decide to replace them, call it road side assistance. Blow a roller frame, you could spin out into the ditch and spill your coffee all over your lap and find out that your onstar subscription ran out leaving you to walk home where your spare tires are.
The best combo on the market for beginners getting into roller frames are the MZX frames with smart mesh panels. All you need is a flat surface, the big frame wrench and a torque wrench and you have production ready frames in a couple hours that need minimal care and maintenance from there on.
The M3 frames with newman bolt mesh are for the highly advanced user who wants complete control over their corners and tension levels. Yes the beginner can jump head first into M3's if they want to but the learning curve is very frustrating and you need a roller table to get even consistent tension above the 40n range.
-
14 years of M3 use here, for the last 4 I switched to S mesh Statics, doubt I would ever go back to rollers. However, if you retension and stay on top of rollers they probably are better, but it takes alot of time. S mesh statics hold decent tension and last a long time with zero upkeep, right now, thats where I will stay.
-
I'll throw another wrench into things... We use both. ;D for plastisol jobs we only use rollers. For WB or DC jobs we use 95% statics. All the statics we use are S-mesh. The S-mesh on statics makes a huge difference vs. standard mesh on statics.
We have just found more control with plastisol when using rollers.
Oh and just to make it not easy for you, we don't use the panels, we stretch our own. ;D
-
H20/HSA/DC/SLQ=rethink
-
Hope this madness made some sense but at the end of the day rollers kick a$$ and take names.
mooseman
Thank you for the long reply. You clarified the general idea I had of rollers. I have decided to start purchasing rollers instead of statics from this point on. My question now is what kind of rollers are suggested. Do i need a table to stretch the screens or can I manage them without one for now?
Get a few rollers to start and don't worry about a table for now. We are real small shop and only have about 48 frames which in this world is like the screen scrap heap for most shops.
We have all MZX (square bar Newmans) and maintain all to some stupid standard that works for us.
Example
230 mesh we hold at 30
195 at 35
180 at 35
156 at 40
123 at 45
You will discover that the number is not as important as a standard and consistency to it if you are going to ignore the number and let it slide then just stay with statics.
Forget the stretching table for now, we don't have one , we don't need one for 48 frames that are checked and re-tensioned when we see a 5 Nm drop from our target, check them after reclaim.
we have a home made stretching buddy see pic below.
get a polished 1 1/4 inch wrench from Sears for $30.00 shiny big and heavy but a lot less $ that the magnesium jobs
http://www.sears.com/craftsman-professional-1-4-full-polish-long-pattern/p-00945952000P?prdNo=5&blockNo=5&blockType=G5 (http://www.sears.com/craftsman-professional-1-4-full-polish-long-pattern/p-00945952000P?prdNo=5&blockNo=5&blockType=G5)
get a torque wrench from a home center, you can get one that will do all you need for easily $40 - $80 bucks depending on which one you like. the torque value is important because you will need to again have a target value to maintain or the bolts will not hold against the constant pull of the mesh which is substantial. we use 45 ft-lbs on the crappy light weight Newman MZX frames.
Also if you over tighten the bolts they will STRIP ;)
get a meter get a meter get a meter
even a cheap crappy meter will give you a number reading that you can hold consistency to.
for example even a junk like this will help you narrow your variables and maintain reliability in the ink deposit
http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Precision-Silk-Screen-Newton-Tension-Meter-7-36N-for-Silk-Screen-printing-/321043835461?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abfb42a45 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Precision-Silk-Screen-Newton-Tension-Meter-7-36N-for-Silk-Screen-printing-/321043835461?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abfb42a45)
DO NOT buy the $600.00 high end meter that holds accuracy to +/- 1% , nothing in your shop will ever require that amount of accuracy.
If you want a fine quality meter the Newman ST-2E is going to give you everything you need.
example http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/product/NMMTR2E (http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/product/NMMTR2E)
best of luck
mooseman
-
There must be one heck of a learning curve for success with Newman Frames. I have used them for years and to this day I'm scared to go over 25 Nm even with Newman Mesh. If I have 20 usable screens I've popped 10 to get there. I have read and reread, watched the stretching videos numerous times and the only thing I can think of going wrong is the alignment clips are damaging the mesh and creating a weak spot. I just received some mesh panels so hopefully that will help. I understand the theory of screen tension and agree that retensionable screens are better, but dang they create a lot of tension. I don't know if I'd get MZX again unless you have side clamps. To me they seem to have a lot of flex when mounted by the square bar.
-
I had to make same decision bout 2 years ago. Could not get statics with a decent tension.
Went with used Newmans and Shur-loc panels. Built a stretching table and never looked back.
Love it. it is much nicer and easier to print right now.
-
14 years of M3 use here, for the last 4 I switched to S mesh Statics, doubt I would ever go back to rollers. However, if you retension and stay on top of rollers they probably are better, but it takes alot of time. S mesh statics hold decent tension and last a long time with zero upkeep, right now, thats where I will stay.
This.
I have nothing bad to say about roller frames, but don't know if we will ever go back.
Murphy37
-
You will discover that the number is not as important as a standard and consistency to it if you are going to ignore the number and let it slide then just stay with statics.
Those numbers are actually very important and are specific to different types of mesh one can use. Check with the manufacturer and you'll find that a single mesh count can have 3 different tension levels based on how the end user stretches the mesh.
HOLY CRAP! I just checked that link and they want 400 bucks the 2E meter.. :o F that noise!
Now I remember why I never bought anything from them.. their prices are ridiculous.
Keep our money local and find the suppliers in your area. You'd be surprised what kind of deals can be had when you do business with a handshake rather than a browser window.
Hey lrsbranding.. send me a PM and let me know where you are, I'll see if we can get a rep in your area to stop by and give you some stretching tips. I bet it's something very simple in your technique that is giving you troubles.
-
14 years of M3 use here, for the last 4 I switched to S mesh Statics, doubt I would ever go back to rollers. However, if you retension and stay on top of rollers they probably are better, but it takes alot of time. S mesh statics hold decent tension and last a long time with zero upkeep, right now, thats where I will stay.
This.
I have nothing bad to say about roller frames, but don't know if we will ever go back.
Murphy37
mmmmm.... this coolaid tastes SOOOO GOODD.. ahhhh.. ;D
I love the part about if we keep up with the tension, they'll be better, but who has time for that!
-
;) love that!
-
Lol......I like Kool Aid.....IMO I drank the roller Kool Aid for a long time, its very good, I'm just drinking a different flavor now.
Murphy37
-
There must be one heck of a learning curve for success with Newman Frames. I have used them for years and to this day I'm scared to go over 25 Nm even with Newman Mesh. If I have 20 usable screens I've popped 10 to get there. I have read and reread, watched the stretching videos numerous times and the only thing I can think of going wrong is the alignment clips are damaging the mesh and creating a weak spot. I just received some mesh panels so hopefully that will help. I understand the theory of screen tension and agree that retensionable screens are better, but dang they create a lot of tension. I don't know if I'd get MZX again unless you have side clamps. To me they seem to have a lot of flex when mounted by the square bar.
I have a pretty good idea of what your issues may be. primarily look at the edges of the end caps where they plug into the channel of the roller tube. ON ALL my MZX frames there was a mis-match and the end cap offered a sharp edged corner to the mesh. If you run your finger down the channel and it hits /feels anything at all as you exit the channel over the end cap you have problem.
Secondly I would guess you are possibly not softening the corners correctly.
Lastly there are definite warning signs as you draw up the mesh initially especially if I can get you to ID them I can save you a bunch of mesh and money in the cus jar.
Easier to talk live send a PM if you are interested.
mooseman
-
You will discover that the number is not as important as a standard and consistency to it if you are going to ignore the number and let it slide then just stay with statics.
Those numbers are actually very important and are specific to different types of mesh one can use. Check with the manufacturer and you'll find that a single mesh count can have 3 different tension levels based on how the end user stretches the mesh.
Yes the numbers are important and it should be obtained from the mesh mfg BUT the point is even if you are say 10% short of mfgr suggested value the idea is to hold consistency in the screen condition and not let it slide to the "soft side"
mooseman
-
the idea is to hold consistency in the screen condition and not let it slide to the "soft side"
Yep!
no matter the brand or kind of mesh one uses, being able to hold it at a specific level is the entire basis of the retensionable frame.
-
I won't say what method I use, but I strongly believe good, consistent tensions aids in faster set ups. And good screens are just one part of a bigger system.
-
6 or 7 years ago when my shop went to roller frames I was only the lead printer. So my transitional viewpoint is tainted by that fact, though I feel that gives me the best perspective. Now I manage the screen department so I don't have the hands on that I used to. But, here's what I noticed.
Aside from clamping being a little more wonky than flat static frames (screw those adapters):
More consistent registration. Period. Even though their retension schedule was far less frequent than the one I've instituted I noticed I got less "weird screens" that would work fine once replaced. I imagine this is a result of reduced elongation from getting closer to "work hardened" (even though that's technically impossible with retensionable roller frames). Instead of my (theoretical) 150/48 being stretched at 22n/cm² and relaxing to 14-18n/cm² I would get a screen closer to 20-21n/cm². That underbase sets the tone for how easy everything will be afterwards...for the most part. If you get a bitchin smooth laydown you will have far fewer problems after that. Then once you get that bitchin laydown (assuming you are flashing responsibly, chasing the elusive and technically impossible "gel") everything lays on top of that so much easier. Reduced pressure, less off-contact, faster stroke...everything you are looking for. After the underbase you've got the colors that don't continue to elongate while sitting on the rack waiting to be printed. Reduced pressure requirements from the bitchin underbase and consistent tension also reduce elongation from too much pressure and crazy off-contact. Registration is easier and more consistent all around. The screens all get beaten on less via the reduced pressure and off-contact to provide "virtual tension," stay more stable--regardless of being retensioned or not, and especially when retensioned.
Since taking control of the screen department I've increased our retensioning requirements to four times more frequent (2 months to 2 weeks...and if there are huge runs on the presses it can be even more frequent than that). That has made it easier for operators that don't have quite the same passion for the job as I had to setup and reproduce prints--even some of our most difficult--much easier. As I've said before, these kids in the shop these days don't know the joys of squeezing white through a 180 with thick thread and poor tensioned static frame at 5am on on a January morning in New England...
I've got some killer screen techs who are awesome at stretching raw mesh (which I get for a song, given my volume)...so I won't enter into the raw mesh vs panels debate.
But, if you are at a level where this is something you can afford and you have the right people in place to maintain the system (and it needs non-stop vigilant maintenance to succeed) then I say do it. I'd never ever ever go back to statics. We can stretch 6-12 (depending on the tech and the mesh) an hour...as opposed to 2 statics an hour with the old pneumatic clamp table...and that guy was good, even if the clamps weren't.
You can practice all the stretch voodoo you want to relax your mesh. I've found that, ultimately, they all result in the same results in the life of the screen...but that is surely different for shops with different levels of volume. I simply can't afford to put a screen away for a day with a cinderblock on it. By time it relaxes down it'll already be off press and retensioned (all fresh screens get retensioned immediately in reclaim...then every two weeks thereafter).
Your Milage May Vary, this is just my humble opinion from my shop's perspective...but, I think retensionable frames are awesome and ease setup and repeatability so much that I can justify the extra labor require to maintain my fleet of screens.