TSB
screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: jonbravado on February 11, 2015, 05:10:26 PM
-
Hey Shirt Boarders - needs some insight since I'm in a dead heat here.
I have narrowed down my next press to a 10/12 sabre or a 10/12 sportsman EX - both are great presses and I've seen both run and had a chance to tinker with both, and so has my lead printer. I've also bought several pcs of equipment from both companies over the years and are very pleased with both products AND the people behind them. So this is not easy.... both are AC/Servo Machines.
Any blaring things I've not considered? I've talked with both company's 'Tims' and are very comfortable with both dudes. Great and knowledgeable guys.
I've listed the 'winner' of each category below (in my opinion, of course) - let me know what you think. Thank you for your input in advance.
SABRE SPORTSMAN EX
TIME TESTED X
FEATURES X
PRINT SPEED X
HEFTIER MACHINE X
SETUP DIAMETER (smaller) X
PARTS COST X
FAMILIARITY X
On Fly Programming X
SETUP SPEED X
Max Print Area X
SUPPORT X X - THEY ARE BOTH GREAT
WARRANTY X X - PRETTY MUCH THE SAME
CRATING COSTS X
I know a lot of you guys are M&R shops - But I am having a hard time deciding, I'll probably let my lead printer choose. She was die-hard M&R for years, until she saw and ran the Sabre...........It's solid, smooth, quiet - weighs a LOT more than the Sportsman press - they've taken the falcon series and the heft of the javelin and made a baby with it. The print arms seem stiff as hell, the indexer and interface are awesome. But the real-world prints on the sportsman line have some serious weight in my book. They've been there - and done that. I've seen many a good print come off of a Sportsman.
I know one or more of you guys can help me out here........
Thanks, in advance, for your infinite wisdom.
J
-
I don't see overall cost compared here. Other than that, just from what I've seen, I like some small things like the low profile of the pallet connection system/arm on the M&R. Get more print real estate on smaller garments and don't have to change pallets as frequently. I would say if you have other presses that compatibility would be an important factor as well.
-
Costs are close enough to not be a factor, with all things considered - flashes, crating, shipping, etc.
-
How are you figuring an m&r is easier to setup?
-
How are you figuring an m&r is easier to setup?
This amazing system called tri-loc, and the way the screens, squeegee flood goes into the press puts setup at 1-2 minutes per color mark.
Please don't bother to debunk that.. I just did that with a 5 color job 10 minutes ago. 9 minutes after first screen touched my hands, the first shirt of the run was on the press.
-
As for the press I Used.. 10 color sporty
-
If the Sabre is triloc compatible then I'd say that setup speed between the two would come down to print head controls & print parameter setting speed because screen, squeegee and floodbar loading should be very close. Then look at the micro adjustments and I know that fiddling around with micro's can double your setup time, especially when the movements aren't consistent or true. Micro adjustment time can be mitigated by experience on machines with bad micros but I'd rather have a machine that I didn't have to spend hundreds of jobs to get used to how the micros work. We gained several minutes PER SCREEN with the new press over the Centurian because of the micros, then add in the screen locks, sq and fb locks and our setup times dropped dramatically with a different auto.
When I was shopping for autos I was fortunate enough to talk to a few shops that had more than one brand of auto on their production floor so hearing what those guys had to say about the differences was very valuable to me.
-
sabre is compatible.
-
Can the EX take over sized frames?
and whats max imprint area on the EX?
full disclosure im looking at both presses myself
-
How are you figuring an m&r is easier to setup?
Yep, I was wondering that one as well. They are essentially one in the same as far as setups go.
Well... technically the edge might go to the Sabre since it has such an amazing interface. ;) You can have a production manager send job information to the panel and they just recall the job info.
Owner's Portal Demo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzxpcTRMfWc#ws)
Price I imagine is a HUGE difference.
-
Can the EX take over sized frames?
and whats max imprint area on the EX?
full disclosure im looking at both presses myself
Yep the EX is the extended Sportsman. I can't remember off the top of my head the max print area but, we run oversize screens in ours.
Murphy37
-
sportsman is 16x18 print area. Sabre is 20x20. Printing every other pallet you can go bigger although we rarely print anything wider than 15". So not a deal breaker. Sabre's functionality is in line with the GIII or CHIII's. But the PLUS marks in the M&R column are big ones - THAT'S WHY WE ARE TORN.
We plan on using tri-lock either way we go. Would love to ditch carrier sheets though. Lasers? Setup time should be a dead heat but I seem to remember a setting that eases FB and squeegie axcess on the Sabre. I just wish there were multi-million print sabres out there. I feel certain there will be soon.
Again - associated costs are so close it's negligible. We have all workhorse stuff right now. An auto and two manuals. It has all been solid and dealing with tech support has been great in the rare times we have had to call. After warranty runs out its a lot cheaper to get parts for the workhorse press as most parts are available at tons of places. Many locally to most cities.
I need to just let my lead printer decide and call it a day probably.
-
If your interested in the 20x20 image area the Sportsman comes in that flavor as well. We were printing 23 inches tall on a 20 inch image area with room to spare. I would suspect that even the 16x18 you could print longer than 18, but you will need larger screens and larger pallets. If thats your concern be sure you get the longer pallets which ever press you pick. We had 16x25 pallets on our sportsman and same on our CH3D.
As far as which press, both are good companies and both print shirts. I easily would give M&R the edge as far as support and that's pretty hard to argue otherwise. Sabre has more features for sure, it's a recently released press and the Sportsman is one of this industries most trusted presses over time. We met with Workhorse before buying our M&R and have nothing bad to say about them. We did visit a install and they had trouble getting a press running for us to see but it was just a typical deal on a new install where things didn't go exactly as planned, press ended up running but was after we had left. We joked about it and I didn't hold it against them. Good people. M&R I still felt had a better foundation under itself as a company so I went that way. I don't regret it.
We did find our Sportsman to be a very great press, not a single major issue with it, had a couple small things like sticky valve on a head and a battery replacement on the PLC.
-
This is exactly what I wrestled with 6 months ago. I spent what felt like forever slaving over this exact decision.
Here's why I ultimately went with a Sabre:
Simple, easy to use interface. And the owner's portal, as mentioned already. I haven't used it yet but I absolutely see the benefit of putting it to use, especially for larger shops.
The press's ability to gain functionality. The press connects to WiFi and downloads program updates. Even since I've had it (December), new features and programs have been added. The press didn't have Orbital Mode when I bought it. Then after a few minutes updating one morning, it does. I've used it a few times already. Plus, it also shows a video of what the new feature is.
Access to the entire list of sensors for easy troubleshooting and the ability to upload a log to WH for technical support, if needed. Hopefully I am a few years away from ever needing this but when I do, it'll be very helpful.
Video maintenance guides. The Sabre has a maintenance schedule including videos on exactly how to do the maintenance. I know most of us are pretty mechanically inclined, but a video guide is definitely nice.
As you've already discovered, the presses are really neck and neck overall. For me, the Sabre was ultimately a better fit for my shop. Both are excellent pieces of equipment and it was a very tough decision for me. The Sabre is the latest and greatest with lots of bells and whistles, and the Sportsman is time tested and proven. There's really no bad decision to make.
Lastly, I can confirm that Tri-Loc fits on the Sabre.
-
I've seen many a good print come off of a Sportsman.
This statement is crazy ^ to say, all the other stuff you talk about is good, the reason I say that statement is crazy is it's all about the art and printer before it gets on press....other than that they both sound like you can't lose with either one.
darryl
-
I've seen many a good print come off of a Sportsman.
This statement is crazy ^ to say, all the other stuff you talk about is good, the reason I say that statement is crazy is it's all about the art and printer before it gets on press....other than that they both sound like you can't lose with either one.
darryl
agreed
-
As an owner of Sportsman presses (I have had both 20x20 and 16x18 print areas - and you can print larger than that with both. I have done it many times) I can say they are reliable and extremely easy to use. I will continue to buy them but I believe our next press will be a Gauntlet as they will be replacing the Sporty with them. I could be wrong though. Don't listen to me haha. But the Sporty is smooth, reliable, just great all around. Always on, always ready to take what you can throw at it. Rugged press. Looks handsome to me as well but that is just me. I would like to believe that with today's presses though the quality of the print depends on the shop, not the press. All of the presses being made today should be more than adequate to produce quality prints.
-
Just set up our first job with the Tri-Loc on our Sportsman and
saved at least half the time after 3 years of swinging and flinging the micros.
And I can only see it getting faster... ;D
-
I've seen many a good print come off of a Sportsman.
This statement is crazy ^ to say, all the other stuff you talk about is good, the reason I say that statement is crazy is it's all about the art and printer before it gets on press....other than that they both sound like you can't lose with either one.
darryl
agreed
After personally running the press ol man has before him and seeing the prints he does on it I can say I have seen some GREAT prints come off of the Precision Oval
-
The press's ability to gain functionality. The press connects to WiFi and downloads program updates. Even since I've had it (December), new features and programs have been added. The press didn't have Orbital Mode when I bought it. Then after a few minutes updating one morning, it does. I've used it a few times already. Plus, it also shows a video of what the new feature is.
Access to the entire list of sensors for easy troubleshooting and the ability to upload a log to WH for technical support, if needed. Hopefully I am a few years away from ever needing this but when I do, it'll be very helpful.
Video maintenance guides. The Sabre has a maintenance schedule including videos on exactly how to do the maintenance. I know most of us are pretty mechanically inclined, but a video guide is definitely nice.
Lastly, I can confirm that Tri-Loc fits on the Sabre.
Yeah, it's really cool to come in in the morning and see "ooh... we have some new features added to the press!" No asking, no nothing... just extra little things they come up with that they passed on to us. I often ask my guy "Hey, anything new lately?!" It's like Hanukkah all year long... or so I assume, never participated in one. :)
I've called about a quirk in the way the pedal was working (had a 2 second delay before it would recognize another press) and they said "Ok, you will have that fix in the morning." Pretty awesome!
Flashbacks are great for us with our space restrictions but not everyone will have that issue.
I do love the trouble shooting page with all the sensor information on them. If I've done something stupid I can always look at that page to verify that everything is working as it should. So you can see "yes, the press knows the table is in position or up or down blah blah blah."
Also not sure how the Sporty works for free spin, but our press is always available for free spin as long as the table is down. It has a detent in the table to keep it in place (like manuals do). I know some tables have to be put in "free spin mode"... which is just another stop if you need to move the table to wipe a screen, tape a pin hole or just look at a print while you are walking around setting squeegee angles and such.
And even for the mechanically inclined, it's nice to have that prompt to do your PM as well as the video to make sure you don't forget to do something silly or miss a grease nipple or something.
-
I've seen many a good print come off of a Sportsman.
This statement is crazy ^ to say, all the other stuff you talk about is good, the reason I say that statement is crazy is it's all about the art and printer before it gets on press....other than that they both sound like you can't lose with either one.
darryl
agreed
After personally running the press ol man has before him and seeing the prints he does on it I can say I have seen some GREAT prints come off of the Precision Oval
why thank you
-
I've seen many a good print come off of a Sportsman.
This statement is crazy ^ to say, all the other stuff you talk about is good, the reason I say that statement is crazy is it's all about the art and printer before it gets on press....other than that they both sound like you can't lose with either one.
darryl
agreed
After personally running the press ol man has before him and seeing the prints he does on it I can say I have seen some GREAT prints come off of the Precision Oval
why thank you
Precision Oval? Holy cow, that was the first auto I ran back around '81...
Steve
-
I've seen many a good print come off of a Sportsman.
This statement is crazy ^ to say, all the other stuff you talk about is good, the reason I say that statement is crazy is it's all about the art and printer before it gets on press....other than that they both sound like you can't lose with either one.
darryl
agreed
After personally running the press ol man has before him and seeing the prints he does on it I can say I have seen some GREAT prints come off of the Precision Oval
why thank you
Precision Oval? Holy cow, that was the first auto I ran back around '81...
Steve
i can make magic happen on that press,,,as winston said - you gotta understand cause and effect
-
That user portal where you can sen jobs to the pres is AWESOME!