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Artist => Copyrights/Trade Marks info/questions => Topic started by: Donnie on February 16, 2015, 02:57:35 PM
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Had a meeting with a client the other day. I've got this great art and I want you to print it for an event. OK, let's see it. Yep, sure enough it was printed out from another event tee shirt.
Ah, I'm pretty sure that art belongs to someone else.
Oh, that's OK. My lawyer told me we could change it.... wait for it.... 10% and we would be OK. We're going to take out this thing and replace it with something else.
MMM... I'm not sure about that.
Well, I should know, I talked to my attorney.
Not sure I want to climb aboard with that unless you provide me with a written document that shows your ownership of the art releasing me from liability.
Now he is pissed because I am questioning his integrity. He's sued this person and that person and won every time....I'm getting a bad vibe about his whole attitude.
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I'd suddenly become sooooooo busy, just friggin' SWAMPED with work that I'd be unable to even THINK about fulfilling his order on time . . .
Then, strongly suggest the shop up the street that does FANTASTIC work . . .
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I'd say simply, somehting like , "Well, legalities aside, I don't feel comfortable ripping off another artist for the other 90%."
Or "What does the other printer/artist's lawyer say?"
btw, I like being in a position of not taking a job due to attitiude, or vibes.
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Had this happen to us a few years back, guy tells me he has a logo he wants us to print for his company them proceeds to go to a website that has the logo which once I saw it I knew it was custom, he tells me no it's clipart and he can use it too. I've seen butt loads of clipart and this looked very custom so I tell him you find me the clipart and I'll do it for you, never heard from him again. Donnie backing off this job if you feel uneasy is the best thing.
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I did a lot of work for the company when I dealt with the son. He has moved on for what ever reason and Dad is in charge. I simply don't like the old man and his ways. I don't like the feeling of not being able to please someone especially when he uses law suits in every third sentence.
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The rule is 30% but that really means nothing. I have seen photos that I would say were almost not recognizable of the original. They lost in court. Just tell the guy for the low price of a graphic designer you can have original art for him and he will never have to worry about going to court over it. If he still acts up. Tell him to move on.
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The rule is 30% but that really means nothing. I have seen photos that I would say were almost not recognizable of the original. They lost in court. Just tell the guy for the low price of a graphic designer you can have original art for him and he will never have to worry about going to court over it. If he still acts up. Tell him to move on.
That's just it... I offered to do that for him. I'm thinking I may just punt.
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Tell him to get his lawyer to write you a letter on company letterhead saying the art is the clients and okay to print, then when he comes back without getting that letter, steer him to some custom art.
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Yes, I would need the attorney to prove his point, then I'd check that out, and then still punt. As a printer, as I understand it, you can't play dumb. You're in the trade, and are supposed to know better. I had a similar issue last summer, the guy lost his mind when I told him he was using someone's copyrighted art. I contacted the artist and he was willing to license it for $100 for the rest of our lives, but the customer thought I was trying to nickel and dime him. "I saw it online, and there was © or ®, so it's OK to use!" What an idiot...
Steve
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10%, 20%, 30%, 50% I dont think it really matters..... If they can prove that someone took their exact design and knocked it off then that is grounds for a lawsuit. I have actually been involved in this 2 different times in the last 18 months and really my advise is to try and not copy anything at all..... If someone wants to recreate something then we talk them into starting from scratch.
For this particular situation I would make your client sign some paperwork releasing you from the design, that your contracted to only handle the print side of it and all legal consequences will fall on them. But if he is talking lawyer this, lawyer that to me that is usually a sign to run as fast as you can.
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10%, 20%, 30%, 50% I dont think it really matters..... If they can prove that someone took their exact design and knocked it off then that is grounds for a lawsuit. I have actually been involved in this 2 different times in the last 18 months and really my advise is to try and not copy anything at all..... If someone wants to recreate something then we talk them into starting from scratch.
For this particular situation I would make your client sign some paperwork releasing you from the design, that your contracted to only handle the print side of it and all legal consequences will fall on them. But if he is talking lawyer this, lawyer that to me that is usually a sign to run as fast as you can.
Our artwork approval form has the following clause, which must be confirmed. It may or may not be watertight, but its a helluva start, I think.
-Upon requesting any and all third party images (company or corporate logos, trademarks, or any other copyrighted images) to be reproduced on your goods, you verify and acknowledge that you have been granted permission to use these images by the copyright holders of the images. Mr. Tees is not responsible for unauthorized reproduction, as you are wholly responsible for the necessary permissions of use.
***We use this mostly in situations where we are printing a sponsor logo for an event tee, or what-have-you. We still use judgement when things smell fishy, and could be a potential problem....like the kid wanting me to print Nike logos last week..... ::)
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Our artwork approval form has the following clause, which must be confirmed. It may or may not be watertight, but its a helluva start, I think.
-Upon requesting any and all third party images (company or corporate logos, trademarks, or any other copyrighted images) to be reproduced on your goods, you verify and acknowledge that you have been granted permission to use these images by the copyright holders of the images. Mr. Tees is not responsible for unauthorized reproduction, as you are wholly responsible for the necessary permissions of use.
***We use this mostly in situations where we are printing a sponsor logo for an event tee, or what-have-you. We still use judgement when things smell fishy, and could be a potential problem....like the kid wanting me to print Nike logos last week..... ::)
Very good legal clause! I intend to photocopy it verbatim, then just cross through Mr. Tees one time and pencil above it the name of my business!!!! I'll Scotch tape it to my contracts. 30% smaller text, of course.
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30% smaller text, of course.
Yea, don't want to be sued for copying materials from someone on the board, lol.
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That's it, I'm suing you for copyright infringement of my copyright infringement clause. You will hear from my lawyer (once he stops laughing and takes a few Tylenol). ;D
Crooked, (can I call you Crook for short? ;D )....I will pm you my whole form. Feel free to use what you need, glad I could help!
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A liability waiver can be a good thing. It at least raises the issue of infringement with the customer and might help you recover any losses if there is an issue (assuming there are assets to be had). But a liability waiver does not have any legal standing between you and another party (such as a trademark or copyright holder). It doesn't prevent you from being included in any legal action and definitely doesn't help in any way provide legal cover for obvious infringement. Remember, as a printer in the trade you would be held to a higher standard than a layman. It has been my experience that most customers that I felt needed to sign a Liability Waiver didn't actually have the assets to cover any losses, so I didn't find them useful.
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That's it, I'm suing you for copyright infringement of my copyright infringement clause. You will hear from my lawyer (once he stops laughing and takes a few Tylenol). ;D
Crooked, (can I call you Crook for short? ;D )....I will pm you my whole form. Feel free to use what you need, glad I could help!
VERY hurtful. You know how sensitive us tee shirt printers can be.
I think I'll go eat some worms.
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One word - walk!
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Had a subsequent phone conversation with the wife. I expressed my concerns. She assured me that what I saw was just going to be used as a template for the layout. All art was going to be re-drawn. I did not get a copy of the original so I will have to go by memory. But I guess a bigger question or concern would be is how is a printer supposed to have full knowledge of of every image presented to them as art. I know when I started out, the guy who did my art seemed to be a great artist. He blew me away at how quick he could get a job to me. One day I was at a trade show and I noticed on one of the Sample shirts at a both an exact component of art that was also present in one of my designs. I knew then that he was pretty handy at jacking sh!t. I quit using him. It would seem to me to be almost impossible to know if an obscure piece came into your shop via third party if it was pirated... unless of course it was a widely recognized logo.
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Well, if it's not a well known character or item (Mickey Mouse, or a Ford Cobra) how would one know? But many years ago when my boss had me printing Fonzie t-shirts, he got a letter from Paramount Television telling him to simply "Cease and desist", which we did, no more after that. I don't think they wanted to spend the money to prosecute for small potatoes. So, for a short run, it may be determined that you were not trying to rip anyone off, just printing a job that came in. As I said earlier, when searching out a pinstriping design someone wanted me to take off his shirt (not if I can find it online) and I discovered it was copyrighted, I let it slide when the end user balked at the licensing fee. It's easier to research now than it was years ago, but it's still a pain. In the end, we simply won't print what we know is copyrighted without written permission from the copyright holder. I've also learned that the lack of a © or ® or ™ is meaningless, the holder simply has to prove the creation date. In this vein, we handle some school drama departments putting on Annie Jr., or a Disney play, but the package they buy will come with the right to use the images and make t-shirts (with limits) for the event.
Steve
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A liability waiver can be a good thing. It at least raises the issue of infringement with the customer and might help you recover any losses if there is an issue (assuming there are assets to be had). But a liability waiver does not have any legal standing between you and another party (such as a trademark or copyright holder). It doesn't prevent you from being included in any legal action and definitely doesn't help in any way provide legal cover for obvious infringement. Remember, as a printer in the trade you would be held to a higher standard than a layman. It has been my experience that most customers that I felt needed to sign a Liability Waiver didn't actually have the assets to cover any losses, so I didn't find them useful.
there is no such thing as liability waiver, only a contract in which one party assumes all expenses in case there is a problem. Contracts are binding, wavers are not.
pierre
p.s. Donni, I would stya away from anybody who uses law suit in every third sentence!
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we handle some school drama departments putting on Annie Jr., or a Disney play, but the package they buy will come with the right to use the images and make t-shirts (with limits) for the event.
We get the same stuff when we print for the drama club plays, and all images are return to then as they gave then to us.
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A liability waiver can be a good thing. It at least raises the issue of infringement with the customer and might help you recover any losses if there is an issue (assuming there are assets to be had). But a liability waiver does not have any legal standing between you and another party (such as a trademark or copyright holder). It doesn't prevent you from being included in any legal action and definitely doesn't help in any way provide legal cover for obvious infringement. Remember, as a printer in the trade you would be held to a higher standard than a layman. It has been my experience that most customers that I felt needed to sign a Liability Waiver didn't actually have the assets to cover any losses, so I didn't find them useful.
there is no such thing as liability waiver, only a contract in which one party assumes all expenses in case there is a problem. Contracts are binding, wavers are not.
pierre
p.s. Donni, I would stya away from anybody who uses law suit in every third sentence!
So are places like B2Sign just rolling the dice as they have literally told me, "we just print whatever you send us".
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That's what I'm always trying to understand.
If I sent this to Donnie or someone up north that does lots of "mail order" types of orders. Would anyone of them bat an eye?
(http://www.tiptopsigns.com/images/D/SYM_fleurdelis2.jpg)
These guys take this trademark very serious and they should, it's very popular down here.
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I see the conundrum.
I have no idea what that image represents and would probably not blink if asked to print it.
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And Wayne is 4 hours from me and what 2.5 hours from the Louisiana border, which has a high concentration of hunting and fishing... Actually we are jealous of that area.
We were recently asked to print this image on a sleeve of a shirt. Had to go round and round explaining that flipping it, making the hook a little longer doesn't get around the copyright. These guys send out cease and desist letters to anyone they can.
Now add to that, we created two of these in our own versions... Completely different and we have them trade marked and copyrighted, but ours are not nearly as popular as this original. It was a way to offer something similar and we hoped it would take off. NONE of you guys would know it was protected and I imagine anything less that an expensive search wouldn't help you find out it was.
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That's what I'm always trying to understand.
If I sent this to Donnie or someone up north that does lots of "mail order" types of orders. Would anyone of them bat an eye?
([url]http://www.tiptopsigns.com/images/D/SYM_fleurdelis2.jpg[/url])
These guys take this trademark very serious and they should, it's very popular down here.
My first reaction would be, "Clever design..." but now I ask, "Who came up with that?", with the answer something like "I got it off the internet" or the aforementioned, "It's OK if we change it a little to get around that..." We have have to be wary, no two ways about it.
Steve
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But if they were legitimately trying to bootleg it (is that possible?) they would lie. Maybe say "a friend did it for me".