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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: ITL7 on March 04, 2015, 11:14:16 AM
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I found this board while I was researching autos. The info on here was very helpful and I appreciate everybody that takes the time to post on here sharing their knowledge to make us all better.
My first auto should be delivered next week and I am working on getting my supplies ready. I am hoping I can get some good recommendations on what mesh counts I should start off with.
I'm thinking I will get 36 screens to start off with ranging from 155 to 230. Does that sound right? How would y'all break it up?
Thanks in advance for any help offered and any other ideas/suggestions on supplies that I may not have thought of.
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There's no real answer, because it depends on the jobs more than the press. Without any idea of the types of work you do, it's kind of hard to make a recommendation; that being said you could always just evenly split them and see how it goes; I'd go with the 150, 200 and 230, and maybe a few 280 as well. You'll cover your bases a bit, but be prepared to have to get some more as the best laid plans of mice and men often go astray (I heard that somewhere...)
Steve
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we use a lot of 160S and 225S on our auto... 90% of our jobs are on one of those 2 mesh counts...
for some white prints on hoodies, we also use some 110S...
if you're going non-S mesh, 156 and 230 should take care of most of your jobs as well...
-J
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We use some unconventional mesh counts in the lower ranges that few other shops use but for the purpose of this thread I'll keep my recommendations to those mesh counts that are more readily accessible to everyone. I don't hate the 110/71 but I much prefer the 120/54 but again, the 110/71 is easy to get in bolt form, static aluminum and panels so I'd start with a few of those. Perhaps mix in some 135/48's so you can compare them to the 110/71 to use for underbasing and white ink/dark garment printing. You might prefer (I do for the most part) the 135/48 over the 110/71 but we had trouble keeping the 135's from busting so we dropped those from our inventory. Our workhorse mesh counts here are 150/48 and 180/48 and I'd say about 60% of our screens being shot are those mesh counts. We have kept things more simple recently with the bulk of our work being done with 120/54, 150/48, 180/48 and 225/40. Then you'll need some 225/40's which work great for top colors on underbases and can also work for dark ink/light garments but the ink deposit is close to being too thin for many applications. I think there is a mesh count that I'm going to start testing to fill in that gap between a 180 and the 225 and it's the 200/45 but we can save that for another thread. Then for your 4 color process and sim process jobs you'll need a 280/34 or 310/30. I prefer the 280 over the 310 due to durability and is the only standard mesh count we use regularly. The 280/34 and 310/30 sport almost identical specs so when I'm looking at 2 different mesh counts and most the of important specs are the same I choose the more durable one. I know the 330/30 is popular and I've used it a few times but couldn't keep it in production without it busting. It was a great mesh count though.
That's how I would do it but your mileage may vary and there will be 10 answers and all 10 will be different...so good luck. I will say that my 2 least favorite mesh counts of all time are the 230/48 and 195/55, with the 156/64 just barely missing out but make up a solid top 3 in my hate list. I won't get into all the details but printing through those mesh counts has caused many issues for us over the years, comparably speaking. Their counterparts are so much better that is doesn't make sense to me to use those if you have the ability to get the thin thread versions. But those mesh counts are staples in the industry and are the most widely used so they aren't worthless (they are at our shop) and lot's of good print shops have used them successfully for many years. But I'd love to know how many gray hairs have been sprouted due to those counts...would be interesting.
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I only use statics and I do not have an auto, but good mesh is good mesh I think.
When I started most of my mesh was 110, 156/160, and 230. They worked well enough, but as soon as I started trying to become a better printer and had access to S-mesh my screen inventory changed A LOT. I am actually selling all of my 156 and 230 mesh screens right now because I just hate using them in place of better options. I have tried to simplify my mesh counts a lot while still covering my bases, and I have followed Alan's lead on a lot of it with great results.
Here is a pretty comprehensive list of mesh counts that are available with all the important comparisons like thickness, open area, etc. http://www.murakamiscreen.com/documents/MeshGuidefromCatalogweb.pdf (http://www.murakamiscreen.com/documents/MeshGuidefromCatalogweb.pdf)
I think you can get away with 4 counts for almost everything:
1. Something low that supports a thick deposit for one hit type of jobs where you coat a thicker stencil. I currently use 110/80 due to availability as much as anything, but I am going to test out 100/54 soon I think, as it seems like a great mesh for holding enough detail while having huge open area.
2. A low/mid mesh for more detailed one hits or underbases. I currently use 180/48 for this, but have a few 150/48 and I know a lot of people really like the 150/48. Great mesh for waterbased as well imo.
3. 1 high/mid mesh for halftones/lighter top colors and some halftone underbasing. I use 225/40 for this, and honestly it is my favorite mesh. I would say I use 225/40 for about half of my total screens right now.
4. Something high mesh for top colors, blacks with halftones, etc. I use 280/34 for this. I have some of the 310/30 but for whatever reason I just don't get quite the results I want from those.
My typical job for something like a 5 or 6 color that isn't spot colors (sim process/process/halftone fades) would have a 180/48 base, 280/34 colors, and 225/40 top white. It seems like a lot of the better printers with autos can bump all of those up to the next mesh and get similar or better results than I can manually, so that might be something to consider as well.
You might also look into one or two really low meshes like a 24 or 38 for glitter and HD stuff. I have a few and have found them useful on occasion.
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Thanks for the advice.
Pretty much all of our jobs right now are just 2 or 3 spot color stuff. I am going to get several different ones to start off with and just see what works best for me. I'm thinking that once I get everything dialed in, I can add what I like instead of being stuck with several that I don't want to use.
Any other tips on going from a manual to an auto will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks again
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The best advice I ever got is: "it's still a screen printing press. You are just making it replicate what you are already doing manually."
What mesh counts are you using now? Are you happy with them? If so I'd stay with what works and get the press up and running. Get it adjusted how you like it.
Then I would look into changing mesh counts (or types) and fine tuning.
Just my thoughts.
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Thanks for the advice.
Pretty much all of our jobs right now are just 2 or 3 spot color stuff. I am going to get several different ones to start off with and just see what works best for me. I'm thinking that once I get everything dialed in, I can add what I like instead of being stuck with several that I don't want to use.
Any other tips on going from a manual to an auto will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks again
If you're only getting 36, don't worry about being stuck with anything, you will eventually use them. As Shane put it, maybe start with what ever you use now manually...
Steve
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Regardless of what he is using now, I would strongly suggest looking at S mesh. It really is amazing stuff.
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That's how I would do it but your mileage may vary and there will be 10 answers and all 10 will be different...so good luck. I will say that my 2 least favorite mesh counts of all time are the 230/48 and 195/55, with the 156/64 just barely missing out but make up a solid top 3 in my hate list. I won't get into all the details but printing through those mesh counts has caused many issues for us over the years, comparably speaking. Their counterparts are so much better that is doesn't make sense to me to use those if you have the ability to get the thin thread versions. But those mesh counts are staples in the industry and are the most widely used so they aren't worthless (they are at our shop) and lot's of good print shops have used them successfully for many years. But I'd love to know how many gray hairs have been sprouted due to those counts...would be interesting.
We use 86,110,158,200,230,305. We are slowly migrating to shurlocs and away from statics and would love to hear your thoughts on counts in a new thread, in your spare time :)
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Give me a call. I will be happy to quote you on some frames and answer any questions you may have. 404-895-1796
Thanks and may God bless.
Sonny
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The best advice I ever got is: "it's still a screen printing press. You are just making it replicate what you are already doing manually."
I am learning that is true.
And I've been surprised however to observe that "pulling" seems to deposit more ink on my auto, than "pushing" did with my manual.
Is that true?
I bought a single SurLoc EzeFrame so I could try out some 150 S-mesh. It surprised me how much White ink I can lay down on black cotton. (Pulling, yes. It's an auto. It makes me wonder what pushing manually would do on that screen.)
@ ITL7, I'd sure buy some S-mesh to play with.
What mesh counts are you using now? Are you happy with them? If so I'd stay with what works and get the press up and running.
Yup. I'm a noob, but this looks right to me. It's what I'm learning.
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Where are yall finding s-mesh frames at? Anyone making panels with it for M3's?
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Where are yall finding s-mesh frames at? Anyone making panels with it for M3's?
I'm able to get our old static frames re-meshed with S-mesh from our local supplier... (I believe they use Graphic Screen Fashion out of South Elgin, but I don't know that 100%)
for our M3's we get S-mesh panels from Shurloc.
(ALL of our M3 frames are now smesh... 110S, 160S, and 225S)
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Plasticrap:
110
160
230
305
Discharge / wb
160
180
230
we are 50% S mesh and gravitating to it more and more. mesh counts are rough, 160 may be 158, I really don't know the exact numbers.
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I know its been mentioned a few times already, but go with S-Mesh. Get half 150S and half 225S. Use the 150S for white underbases and as your everyday workhorse screen. Use 225 for top layers. From there you'll likely expand into a few other counts but these will get you going and make the learning curve from manual to auto a lot easier than using standard mesh.
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Thanks again for all the advice. I did go with the S mesh and just mixed up the count some.
I have been using 86, 110, 125, and 160 mainly on the manual. I was told that the auto would lay more ink so to go to a higher mesh count to get the same result. I guess I will just experiment and find what works best for me.
It will be here Tuesday so we will see how it goes.
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just an FYI, S mesh is thinner and thus more fragile. You will have to handle those screens with care. Slightest bump or nick can cause them to split. Tape off the edges on the bottom so you are not crushing the mesh.
pierre
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You can PM me for a dealer who can supply S mesh pre-stretched on statics, or we can work with Shurloc to get you panels for Newmans. All can order and have it dropped ship from our stretching facility.
S mesh allows for fewer mesh counts and as Pierre mentioned it takes careful handling to preserve in a shop. No aggressive scrubbing pads, avoid sharp edge ink scoopers, keep tools, flood bar and squeegee off the screen during set up, put tape on the inside of the screen as a landing pad for flood and squeegee, round off and sand smooth your squeegee ends. Maintain 1.5-2" from squeegee to inside of the frame. Once you see it print you won't care about the careful handling.
Mesh is dependent on print and ink type. Murakami S mesh helps base plates for plastisol, bright colors for discharge.
110S for heavy deposit athletic prints, solid discharge vector art.
135S or 150S for vector plastisol bases, discharge, waterbase, spot color plastisols.
225S for halftone bases, detailed discharge, detailed spot color, solid vector overprints
280T or 300T for halftone with some solid areas.
350T or 350S for 100% halftone or stochaistic overprints.
S mesh does help capture more tonals but in the beginning get used to S mesh for bases and then move up to higher end S mesh for overprints. Some like a higher tension overprint screen to get better peeling action on hot plastisol base plates when their press has no cool down stations.
Each shop recipe can vary. A lot depends on the art you print, and especially ink types.
The key is a Murakami S mesh plastisol base is very opaque compared to T thread. The letters S and T refer to the thread diameter. S mesh is not all the same. Murakami maintains good workable tensions over the life of the screen. Always ask your stretcher what they are going to stretch the screens to. Some stretch too low a tension IMO. PM me for those that do stretch to acceptable tensions. Or order a drop ship for our stretch which captures the mesh very square to the frame to prevent moire. You can also contact me directly to help with logistics of your needs. We also offer bias stretching which has some strength advantages as well.
S-mesh plastisol base plates also provide a very soft hand. The key to getting soft hand is to back off the squeegee pressure and take it down slowly until the ink clears the screen. It takes very little pressure to transfer ink.
Here is a video where I am printing it manually, also a great way to save your hands in manual printing so you can do more important things like play guitar that night.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFShG5cWeGY&feature=plcp (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFShG5cWeGY&feature=plcp)
I barely touch the pallet with the squeegee. Watch to the very end after the credits to find out why so many people come to the ISS January show!
Al