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screen printing => General Screen Printing => Topic started by: bimmridder on March 17, 2015, 11:42:33 AM
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I'm trying to make better my reclaim loop. Is there anyone around doing 150 plus screens a shift that would care to share information? Work flow, style of reclaim, staffing, etc? Either here, e-mail, or phone?
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I've been relegated to screen duty myself and did 60 screens the other day and I incorporated a few different techniques to see which one worked best and the fastest. I wish I had something to give you because none of the methods I used worked to my satisfaction but I guess it's all relative and the method that works best is the one to use. I still kept going back to de-inking, dip tank, remove emulsion via pressure washer, ink remover/haze application, then after they've sat for a few minutes I blast them out. I was averaging about 20 screens per hour but the majority were lower mesh counts. I could do 30 per hour if they were all 225 and 305's :).
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You're hired! You can start yesterday.
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Watch this post by Greg Kitson, can't get much better than this.
Flat table plastisol ink removal and dip tank emulsion removal workflow.
http://tinyurl.com/kxhxsm3 (http://tinyurl.com/kxhxsm3)
~Kitson
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I still kept going back to de-inking, dip tank, remove emulsion via pressure washer, ink remover/haze application, then after they've sat for a few minutes I blast them out.
For what it's worth this is what we always come back to as well. I know we can do better time and movement/energy wise
on some parts of that process though. Screens go in and out of the sink three times.
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With 150+ per shift I will not manually reclaim
Many big shop in Europe use this machine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHyFDRy5g54 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHyFDRy5g54)
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It took a clean screen and spit out a clean screen with a different color mesh adhesive!
We have similar machines in the US as well.
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It took a clean screen and spit out a clean screen with a different color mesh adhesive!
We have similar machines in the US as well.
You can have many screen in the machine, but the main advantage is the high pressure washer, just at 1/2 inch of the mesh both side @ 150 bars - 2175 psi, the screen is well washed.
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Sorry, it was a joke. I'd love to see one in a production setting. I think everyone would like to automate screen cleaning.
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I think if we had to do 150 per day every day, we'd have to get something to automate it.
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Be careful with auto recaiming systems.
Uses a lot more water if you have high water costs.
Uses a lot more chemistry, often specialized chemistry to prevent foaming.
May not reclaim a water resistant screen made for wb/discharge/HSA inks.
You can increase the emulsion remover concentrate in the dip tank.
Increase PSI of your pressure washer to more PSI. Hydroblasters are at 5,000psi and
can almost knock you off your feet. On spray mode they take out a wider swath at higher PSI.
Hire afternoon help that wants to get into screen printing. We started all employees on screen cleaning
and reclaim since once promoted they would clean screens better at press. If they can't handle the gunk
of clean up they will never maintain a press or work area well.
Al
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We have a screen washer:
http://www.nwgraphic.com/product.php?id=SYS--9010--1 (http://www.nwgraphic.com/product.php?id=SYS--9010--1)
Right at seven years old and only problem with it was a $125 touchpad control panel replacement because of operator abuse. They say to use their private label screenwash as it will not affect the pneumatic pump seals, but we found that CCI Ink Wash SC is compatible. Make sure you card out as much ink as you can to preserve the life of the two canister filters.
Next is the emulsion remover dip tank with CCI Gemzyme.
Finally, last year we upgraded from North Star 1700 psi to a 3000 psi pressure washer. We run the washer right at 2100 psi. This increase in psi makes a BIG difference. Change oil regularly to extend pump life.
All of the above is what works for us, in our shop.
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If they can't handle the gunk of clean up they will never maintain a press or work area well.
Al
Absolutely. Used to work with a guy nicknamed "fingers" because he left ink finger prints everywhere. Annoying as hell!
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I know results vary, but for my setup this has been the fastest, least physical, and has my screens looking and printing the best:
Dip tank with easiway supra, 37 gallons: fits 6 23x31 screens under my hold-down and I can slot in on one side and out on the other. 701 for ink/haze removal after the tank. Mostly using sp1400, often hardened. ink is carded off on press, or just off press depending on schedule, or washed off immediately if waterbased. I have two washout booths, one for post dip, one just for 701 dehazing. I have two vertical carts for screens, one I fill with dirty screens, ink carded off and tape removed. One is empty, waiting for screens that have been pressure washed after the dip tank.
I load 6 screens in the tank, go deal with something for a few minutes, then begin.
I remove one screen, put on my vertical draining shelf, slot another into the tank.
After 30 seconds or so, move this screen into the sink, put another screen on the shelf, and slot another into the tank.
Pressure wash from shirt side only, removing all emulsion with fan setting, quick back and forth, then quick up and down. Any problem areas, adjust the fan to a tighter spread and blast out.
Move reclaimed screen into empty cart and repeat.
I can usually do a full 25 screen cart in around 15-20 minutes depending on how quickly I feel like working.
Next I begin the deink/dehaze/degrease phase. I always do a clearing print before reclaim, and the supra + pressure washer gets basically any ink off the screens, so all thats left is small residual ink or ghosting.
I use a spray bottle with the 701, 4 sprays on the squeegee side, scrub with one of those chem resistant auto brushes, then flip and scrub again (no more sprays, just using residual chems from the other side of the screen. I rarely have ink on the frame itself, but if necessary I'll get that quickly as well.
Pressure wash from shirt side.
grab screen on the side, angle so it is resting on one corner, fan spray with normal hose nozzle the outside of the frame, then top to bottom. Then flip and repeat.
The whole process for 25 screens should take around an hour. There is only one scrubbing step which makes it a lot less tiring. Screens look good as new unless they have sat for an extended period of time with black or red ink. On those I have started doing the 701 scrub, then removing from the sink to let sit for a minute or two, then pressure washing and rinsing. Honestly, doing 6 screens like this then rinsing all at once might even be faster, but I havent timed that.
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I'd like to see how one of those contraptions handles an HSA screen that's been on press all day. Unless it uses warm water, my guess is not well.
Which brings me to what I wanted to say- try using warm, filtered water at reclaim through all hoses and press washers. Sounds expensive and it could well be for a mega shop but it can make a difference in reclaim on certain inks. Not for everybody but could be a huge improvement in some shops. The filter keeps the minerals present in warm water out.
Good luck Barth, I think any small improvement you can make will pay off with that kind of screen throughput.
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To further Screen Foo's comments, Has anyone ever tried a steam cleaner to reclaim screens?
Just a thought, all ridicule welcome.
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Wrong guy, but amusingly enough, we use warm water in reclaim too.
Develops screens a little faster as well, FWIW.
I've always wanted to try out one o' them fancy pressure washers you can pipe hot water through, can't imagine NO one has info...
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Wrong guy, but amusingly enough, we use warm water in reclaim too.
Develops screens a little faster as well, FWIW.
I've always wanted to try out one o' them fancy pressure washers you can pipe hot water through, can't imagine NO one has info...
Most washers are perfectly fine with water as hot as a reasonably set water heater will produce out of the tap. I think going too hot would make a lot of steam but I bet yer right, it would probably just melt ink and emulsion right off the screens.
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Wrong guy, but amusingly enough, we use warm water in reclaim too.
Develops screens a little faster as well, FWIW.
I've always wanted to try out one o' them fancy pressure washers you can pipe hot water through, can't imagine NO one has info...
Most washers are perfectly fine with water as hot as a reasonably set water heater will produce out of the tap. I think going too hot would make a lot of steam but I bet yer right, it would probably just melt ink and emulsion right off the screens.
...and degrade tension at an alarming rate, I'll wager.
But no, I've never tried. So I'm just speculating.
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Not steam but close to it.. one of those heater type pressure washers at a shop in mexico i did some consulting with. used diesel to fuel the heater with 3k PSI and they just put the screen fresh from the press in the wash tank and just blew it all off. No chemicals, just wicked hot almost steam high pressure water on Static frames. they had been doing it that way for years.
At the end of the day the operator would use scrap shirts to wipe down the tank and leave it clean for the next day.
So yes, hot water does work
At 150 screens a day, im looking to automation.
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I'm with John. At 150/day, I'm looking at automation.
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Here's a little more. Since I spent four hours doing screens last night (can you believe one of my temps didn't make it in yesterday?) I timed myself. Not including carding and untaping, it too right at two minutes a screen. I wasn't killing myself, just a comfortable working pace. I have looked at automated cleaners over the years. I never really saw one that did as good as I'd like to see. I need to look again. I've seen the smaller units, two part systems all the way up to the half a million dollar units. I'm sure some things have improved since I last looked. And then the fun of justifying a purchase like that to my business partner. Ugh.
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Here's a little more. Since I spent four hours doing screens last night (can you believe one of my temps didn't make it in yesterday?) I timed myself. Not including carding and untaping, it too right at two minutes a screen. I wasn't killing myself, just a comfortable working pace. I have looked at automated cleaners over the years. I never really saw one that did as good as I'd like to see. I need to look again. I've seen the smaller units, two part systems all the way up to the half a million dollar units. I'm sure some things have improved since I last looked. And then the fun of justifying a purchase like that to my business partner. Ugh.
Let your business partner clean 150 screens a day for a week, purchase justified. :)
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He's not allowed in production. Period. Works best that way. He knows the frustration is building and production is being affected.
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Wrong guy, but amusingly enough, we use warm water in reclaim too.
Develops screens a little faster as well, FWIW.
I've always wanted to try out one o' them fancy pressure washers you can pipe hot water through, can't imagine NO one has info...
Most washers are perfectly fine with water as hot as a reasonably set water heater will produce out of the tap. I think going too hot would make a lot of steam but I bet yer right, it would probably just melt ink and emulsion right off the screens.
Those who have heard my story know that I served major time a few years back as the screen clean guy at a medium sized shop (4 autos)
When I started there (2 autos) they were feeding the pressure washer through the drain of the water heater which was near the door leading to my outdoor work area.
We upgraded to a diesel /kerosene fired hot blaster that certainly did speed up the job a bit. Granted, we weren't using the uber high tension screens of today, but I saw no hastened loss of tension (except when others tried reclaiming without chemicals)
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Automation might sound like the perfect answer, but I don't think it is and here are my reason's for it how many screens can a machine clean at one time that would be satisfactory to you without a little extra cleaning, how fast can it clean screens. Most of these units clean 1 maybe 2 screens at a time, the only thing automation takes away is the human element somewhat. We toured Russell's plant and they had an automatic screen wash which looked like a car wash it was so big, but the reason for that was the size of the screens they send thru it and they still prep the screens a little once they came out. If I was in Dave position doing 150 reclaims a day I'd have whoever break down the setup remove ink and tape right there at the press and as fast as they take a screen off some else would be setting up new screen's. Removing ink and tape is half the battle, once I'm finishing a run I always stroke the print area (which I'm sure many of you do to) so that area has no ink and the only ink left is the sides and right at the flood bar all's left is to remove the tape and the screen is darn near clean just a little ink degradent and reclaim spray. With all this said I'm sure Dave don't need may help cause he runs a tight ship and has everything under control, my method might only work for me and I ain't doing 150 any time soon. just my 2cents for the post LOL
darryl
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Be careful with auto recaiming systems.
Uses a lot more water if you have high water costs.
Uses a lot more chemistry, often specialized chemistry to prevent foaming.
I can confirm all above claims. We went from diptanks + high pressure washer to Grunig automatic products.
for ink removal: G-104 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8frujIqbdKQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8frujIqbdKQ)
for emulsion removal and screen developing: G-112 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss-LlSF2o3w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss-LlSF2o3w)
Negative points:
-Water consumption increased a lot to 2m3 per day for 50+ screens.
-Chemicals costs increase was around 30%.
-Machines were very expensive, only reason I bought them was 50% EU subsidy because of environmentally friendly technology. No ROI can justify it. We don't make any savings on tape either, to quickly return invested money. ;)
-parts are expensive and they break more often than expected from Swiss Manufacturer. E.g.: Pump for $1500 several times in 5 years.
On positive side:
-consistent quality of screens
-with 15 min training anybody can process screens
-it's not dirty, messy job anymore
-can do it while doing other jobs, you merely need to change screens in machine
regards,
Boris
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An in-between option that I have strongly considered is automating the rinse only. That is:
- ink remover
- place in automated rinse unit
- emulsion remover
- place in automated rinse unit
- dehaze
- place in automated rinse unit
Degreasing, if done, would need to have it's own rinse unit to stay clean enough I imagine or be done in the 'clean' booth where screens are resolved (what we currently do). Depending on the throughput and flow of screens in your shop I think the machine that rinses after degrease could be a dual purpose degreaser rinse/resolving unit, automating two steps with one unit.
The cost for a simple machine to rinse with warm, high pressure water and filter effluent should be much lower than a fully automated system and much easier and lower cost to maintain. This would net the benefits of less operator fatigue, not atomizing water and chem throughout the washout area, elimination of stray ink and chem or "splashback" issues and ensure all screens are at the very least rinsed to a certain standard throughout the reclaim process. It eliminates the need for multiple washout booths and any bottlenecks that can occur with a single washout booth. It may save space. You could use any chem, any method of application- dip tank, stacking, hand scrubbing or any combination you like and change that up as needed with no major changes to to machines.
This would also let you do the reclaim in line or in a pass through style if you used multiple rinsing units with a side load/conveyor style. I think you could achieve very high throughput in that fashion that may rival a fully automated one with far more flexibility. Adding a unit full of air knives shooting warm, clean, compressed air could be another good piece in a modular setup like this for minimal drying time in a screen cabinet before re-coating and after resolving and no drips.
Boris, that's some great info from a real life user of the automated systems.
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-Machines were very expensive, only reason I bought them was 50% EU subsidy because of environmentally friendly technology. No ROI can justify it. We don't make any savings on tape either, to quickly return invested money. ;)
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Boris, do you have any link to this EU subsidy ?
Cheers
Willy
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If I was in Dave position doing 150 reclaims a day I'd have whoever break down the setup remove ink and tape right there at the press and as fast as they take a screen off some else would be setting up new screen's
No way in hell im trading money making production time for money sucking cleaning time.
Press labor dollars can be upwards of 300 per hour while the cleanup crew is10, 20 or 30 an hour.
Yank those dirty screens outa the press ASAP to allow the next job to get into the press ASAP.
let the cleanup guy handle the screens from that point.
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Have you looked at outsourcing your screen cleaning. I know a company locally that started in this business just cleaning screens for other shops. Hell if you get a auto screen cleaner you could always start a side business cleaning other shops screens. You would pay for the auto cleaner faster.
150 a day is alot. I think I will be automating that when I get to 200 a week. My guy can do 20 an hour if we need them. He could do that speed all day but what a horrible day that would be. I don't like cleaning screens more than 3 hours. I don't know how an auto cleaner can't save money. Just the man hours and keeping the workers moral up would save a grip of money in lost hours from tired employees.
The auto cleaners are too expensive. When the machine that cleans the screens is more than an auto press that does the printing there is something wrong.
Like John said cleaning the ink out of screens on press is a no-no, in a production setting. Not just lost time but the chance of dirty hands being that close to the clean shirt printing press.
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We do about 150-200 a day during peak times of year when we have lots of smaller jobs. I have 3 guys running the screen department. To keep everyone happy, moral high and to prevent a 2-guy-call-out day from destroying production everyone is cross-trained in all duties and I had implemented once-daily station rotation...though that has fallen out of favor because I have two guys that actually like cleaning and de-stenciling all day.
But either way, for reclaim the stations are broken down as follows:
The dirty screen rack is in the shop next to our screen cleaning washout sinks. The guy out there pulls tape and washes the screens. Once he fills up a rack of screens he wheels that back to the back room where the de-stenciling booths are.
The de-stenciler fills up a rack and wheels it into the drying room. We used to use the dip tank but these guys, for some reason, prefer scrubbing the screens. I think they are crazy, but they can crank out a two half-filled (to dry faster) racks of 24 screens in 40 minutes or so. Once we started scrubbing on Saati ER-2 (instead of dip-tanking EasiStrip Supra) we noticed we didn't have to de-grease anymore...I think that's why they prefer it.
The guy feeding the CTS (who also does all of the developing at the end of the day) does the coating and taping. If there is ever a glut of screens somewhere that typically means there is a shortage of screens somewhere else. So if, say, there aren't enough screens to de-stencil an entire rack that means that there must be a glut of them waiting to be washed...so the de-stenciler goes to double-team the screen washing station (why we have 2 booths out there). If there aren't a rack's worth of screens to wash that guy will do the coating...no glut there? Start developing.
Granted, this is with a crew of 3 guys...who are machines. No complaining, consistent work. Enough over-production so a call-out or two, a vacation, etc doesn't ruin production.
I still can't justify the cost of a machine...and that is assuming they work 100% as advertised, which I can't help but be skeptical of after I inherited a RhinoTech screen washer that wasn't as effective as a slop buck and a brush.
But, YMMV, as always
The reclaim loop manages to over-produce what we need to prepare new jobs by a small but comfortable margin.
Addendum: I can't say enough great things about the HydroBlaster pressure washer. That thing is a monster. It'll rip emulsion off a screen with zero chemical, if you want.
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Granted, this is with a crew of 3 guys...who are machines. No complaining, consistent work.
If ever there was a magic key to screenprinting, that right there is what its shaped from.
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I think I'd have more luck finding a unicorn than I would finding 3 guys that worked like machines without complaining and doing consistent work. Out of the 15 or so guys I've hired the last 5 years I bet I'd have a hard time picking 3 that I'd like to have back, so getting 3 to be working at the shop at the same time seems like a miracle.
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hmm cloning..
me myself and I could rule this industry :o
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-Machines were very expensive, only reason I bought them was 50% EU subsidy because of environmentally friendly technology. No ROI can justify it. We don't make any savings on tape either, to quickly return invested money. ;)
Boris, do you have any link to this EU subsidy ?
Cheers
Willy
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Willy,
it was in 2010, not available anymore. But often there is some.
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I think I'd have more luck finding a unicorn than I would finding 3 guys that worked like machines without complaining and doing consistent work. Out of the 15 or so guys I've hired the last 5 years I bet I'd have a hard time picking 3 that I'd like to have back, so getting 3 to be working at the shop at the same time seems like a miracle.
Not three guys, but when I returned to screen printing after my die career job ended in 1988, the owner was tired of the flakes that that particular (usually) entry level job attracted, and took a different tack; asking me if I would take the position, knowing that I had some years in the biz under my belt and was looking for something a little more creative. I was turning it down as my wife jabbed me in the ribs and reminded me that he was offering real wages, and full medical for the both of us. Point is, I was close to 40 years old, married, stable, and understood the whole process. He felt that it was worth it to him to pay me more for the dependability I would bring to that department. He also understood that the job was a little demeaning, and I craved more, so he didn't stand in the way of my establishing my own part time business, and in fact, helped with supplies and such.
Bottom line is reclaim and screen prep are similar to the nail which when lost, ended up costing a king his kingdom. Get good workers for this, and treat them better than the position and job tends to imply.
Of course, seven years later, his accountanft convinced him that he was paying me too much, and voila! Frog Prints went full time.
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hmm cloning..
me myself and I could rule this industry :o
ya but who gets to sleep with your wife...
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I think I'd have more luck finding a unicorn than I would finding 3 guys that worked like machines without complaining and doing consistent work. Out of the 15 or so guys I've hired the last 5 years I bet I'd have a hard time picking 3 that I'd like to have back, so getting 3 to be working at the shop at the same time seems like a miracle.
I admit that I am extremely lucky in that regard. I've been here for over 12 years and I've seen the turnover in the shop. Maintaining high morale is a top priority for me. Happy guys are productive guys. I don't bust their balls over the small stuff, I hold them to high quality standards but I also give them as much freedom as possible for problem solving. I've noticed that given freedom and opportunity to do a good job a good worker will strive to do good.
...but there are plenty of people you just can't help. I had to go through a number of those to get to these.