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screen printing => Waterbase and Discharge => Topic started by: cleveprint on March 31, 2015, 12:52:13 PM
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whats happening everyone. i really want to start diving into some waterbase printing here. we have been exclusively plastisol forever, so i would be essentially starting from scratch. i was wondering if anyone has some good info on where to even start. brands of inks to try, emulsions, tips, tricks, maybe a link to another thread with someone asking the same question as i am and im just being too lazy to search :)
starting all of my research now and figured this is a great place to start. i know im offering a pretty broad topic, but i figured it cant hurt to ask. thanks!
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Brand of ink- we favor CCI
Emulsion- we favor Murakami SP 1400
Tips- Murakami Smartmesh, larger mesh openings decrease the chance of dry in.
There is so much more to add but it seems your laziness is contagious and... I hate to type. ;D
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I agree with Orion for the most part.
I prefer using CCI D-White more than any other discharge white. I still like the matsui brite base for discharge colors and the matsui pigments, but I really haven't tried out many other brands enough to say I like one more than the other. I did TONS of testing on most of the different white options (CCI, matsui, sericol, magna, etc.) before settling on CCI. Another shop in my area that does 99% waterbased prefers using sericol for everything but discharge white, and they also use the CCI D-White.
I like SP1400 a lot, though it takes a long time to expose. Holds fantastic detail and basically doesnt ever break down. Some other popular ones I know shops are using with success are the WR-14 and WR-25.
The S-mesh is so good for waterbased I would almost call it essential, especially if you are just starting out. Dry-in tends to be the biggest frustration when starting out, since literally any down time while ink is in the screen will start to affect your print. While you're testing stuff or adjusting registration, your ink is thickening and tiny details are hardening in your screen. Humidity, additives, spritzing with water, etc all help, but it will still happen and it is annoying as hell when it does.
Other things to remember, curing is longer and full curing is absolutely crucial, especially with discharge. Discharging different brands/styles/colors is always a bit of a gamble due to re-dyes and certain dyes/blends just not playing nice. Testing is always crucial to success, but you will eventually get burned on something.
The results are awesome though and worth it in my opinion. Nothing like having an enormous, bright, full color field on a shirt that is perfectly soft and breathable.
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thanks for the responses. i know its a really broad topic im asking about. i know i want to start very slowly. probably some dark ink jobs on light garments. try to hold off on the discharge until i get comfortable.
i guess my biggest concern is screens holding up. the few times i played around with D-White, it really ate my screens up. we use aquasol hvp and i had even put hardener on it. i know exposure is an issue there, but im assuming the discharge will eat your screens up more than say a regular black waterbase will. but then again, i have no clue either!!
im def not looking to go full on waterbase yet. just want something to add to our arsenal.
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The SP-1400 is the way to go. It eliminates so many headaches.
A thought on pigments, we have found that Matsui pigments seem to be the most heavily concentrated. While that is nice sometimes, when mixing small amounts, 1 drop too many and your color is pretty far off...
Get yourself a GOOD(you ain't slanging dime bags anyone) digital scale that measures 0.01g.
For what it is worth, I think the "easiest" and must user friendly option out there is CCI. Their mixing software seemed to be rather accurate. They are also a US company so they don't have ridiculous names for things like Matsui and Magna have. Small detail, but it can be frustrating trying to wrap your head around weird names when you are already trying to learn something foreign...
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I'd really love to get into wb also but I'm afraid the mini sprint might struggle a bit but not sure.
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I'd really love to get into wb also but I'm afraid the mini sprint might struggle a bit but not sure.
we have a mini sprint with an extra drone, and we really don't have any issues.
we run most waterbase through around 340/350, usually around 6-8.
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I am also starting my research into this, but I am looking farther out since I would also need a larger dryer.
What seems to get better results? DC UB or dying the DC?
For the CCI system I believe it is the same pigments for bot right? Does anyone have a system that you use the same base and just add the DC agent in darks?
Thanks
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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None work that way that I know of...
Shared pigments seem to be pretty standard, but the bases are inherently different. Even unactivated discharge will lighten a bit and "discharge" if printed on a dark shirt. It will just look like faded crap instead of the color you are trying to hit.
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seems like i need to start ordering in some stuff and start playing around. maybe see if cci has a sample pack or something. thanks for the tips so far though.
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CCI does(or did) have a "starter kit" all the pigments and a gallon of base I believe. From memory, they were the most economical for their starter kits also...
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I'd really love to get into wb also but I'm afraid the mini sprint might struggle a bit but not sure.
we have a mini sprint with an extra drone, and we really don't have any issues.
we run most waterbase through around 340/350, usually around 6-8.
I guess I would run it at the same time and temp for discharge. Usually 340 at 4
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CCI is good stuff, we use D base and D white, but for me, the absolute easiest dummy proof stuff is Sericol. Open the bucket, dump on the screen, print. want to discharge, just add some agent. They are all RFU inks, real easy to use. take a look here:
http://www.atlasscreensupply.com/texcharge_discharge_ink.htm (http://www.atlasscreensupply.com/texcharge_discharge_ink.htm)
their is a formula guide for mixing pms colors, we use it once in a while. most of the time we eyeball it and write down the weights.
best thing you can do - write.down.everything. get a huge binder and keep track of everything from squeegie duro to ink mixing formulas, air temp, time of year, location of the moon, mesh, shop mood....
and for God sakes, get a scale......
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CCI does(or did) have a "starter kit" all the pigments and a gallon of base I believe. From memory, they were the most economical for their starter kits also...
Anthem carries it:
http://www.anthemprintingsf.com/Color-Mixing-System-CMS-Starter-Kit-w-Waterbase-p/cmswaterbasekit.htm (http://www.anthemprintingsf.com/Color-Mixing-System-CMS-Starter-Kit-w-Waterbase-p/cmswaterbasekit.htm)
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we have had decent luck with rutland wb-99. but looking at the price difference I think we maybe experimenting with some new lines.
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want to dive in eh..
put on some board shorts, burn a screen, add waterbase ink, pull the squeegee and look at that... you're printing waterbase!
yeah it really is that easy.
The hard part is picking an emulsion, what brand of ink to use, all the additives, the wicked expensive scale to measure into the .01 range to make pms colors that don't match the book and all the leftover discharge ink when the job is done.
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I would also like to know about open time. I live in a very dry climate and most of the time, my shop hygrometer is in the low 20%. Is there a ink line that is a little more user friendly when it comes to drying in the screens?
The only waterbased ink I have tried is the Green Galaxy white, but I am looking for a full line of pigment and bases to mix what I need. Ryonet (I know, probably a curse word around the professional world) claims that this ink has excellent open time. But I still had some ink drying in my screen in the time it took to run a shirt through the conveyor.
I do have a sample of D-Base and B-White but I don't want to try them as I currently live above my shop with my young kids. Well I guess that is enough tangents for now.
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I would also like to know about open time. I live in a very dry climate and most of the time, my shop hygrometer is in the low 20%. Is there a ink line that is a little more user friendly when it comes to drying in the screens?
The only waterbased ink I have tried is the Green Galaxy white, but I am looking for a full line of pigment and bases to mix what I need. Ryonet (I know, probably a curse word around the professional world) claims that this ink has excellent open time. But I still had some ink drying in my screen in the time it took to run a shirt through the conveyor.
I do have a sample of D-Base and B-White but I don't want to try them as I currently live above my shop with my young kids. Well I guess that is enough tangents for now.
We use the GG White and black every day. granted our shop is in Houston, where it's usually pretty wet. But we just add some water to the ink, and there is zero issues with it staying open.
Also GG has said they are going to launch a set of pigments in the next 2-3 months. But you can buy their bases and use matsui and rutland pigments
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@Onewithpez- there are additives or there that help with open time, different names depending on the manufacturer. Lubricant, retarder or whatever else. Like Eric said water works also. Keep in mind though adding things like that usually extend the time the garment need to be in the dryer.
Also GG has said they are going to launch a set of pigments in the next 2-3 months. But you can buy their bases and use matsui and rutland pigments
They have the pigments and everything already, we have been trying them for probably close to a year now. The main issue is a mixing software. It isn't 100% yet, getting there, but I believe he doesn't want to release something sub-par.
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@Onewithpez- there are additives or there that help with open time, different names depending on the manufacturer. Lubricant, retarder or whatever else. Like Eric said water works also. Keep in mind though adding things like that usually extend the time the garment need to be in the dryer.
Also GG has said they are going to launch a set of pigments in the next 2-3 months. But you can buy their bases and use matsui and rutland pigments
They have the pigments and everything already, we have been trying them for probably close to a year now. The main issue is a mixing software. It isn't 100% yet, getting there, but I believe he doesn't want to release something sub-par.
this is really cool to know. I know Danny was testing them as well, and he was getting really good results with them. I've been trying to get some of wilflex and rutland's inks, but i've been finding it very difficult to get HSA info from Rutland.
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I would say the most complete HSA system we have used is from Magna. Not that it doesn't leave something to be desired, but that is probably just HSA in general! :P
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I would say the most complete HSA system we have used is from Magna. Not that it doesn't leave something to be desired, but that is probably just HSA in general! :P
IF anyone would like more info/detail on the Magna High Solids waterbase, shoot me an email. Happy to help.
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https://www.sgia.org/garment/events/2015/09/making-switch-water-based-inks (https://www.sgia.org/garment/events/2015/09/making-switch-water-based-inks)
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https://www.sgia.org/garment/events/2015/09/making-switch-water-based-inks (https://www.sgia.org/garment/events/2015/09/making-switch-water-based-inks)
I looked to see if you posted an intro about yourself but I wasn't able to find one. I'm assuming your the Jamie from Latitudes that will be presenting this class? If so I would love to talk with you. Charlie Taublieb was in my new shop that I'm building a few weeks back and had quite a few really nice/good things to say about Latitudes up in the northwest. I would really enjoy talking to you guys about somethings as well as your hsa/virus experience as recently I have been testing the crap out of hsa products.
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Yes, that is me. I would be happy to speak with you. Let me know how you would like to arrange.
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Yes, that is me. I would be happy to speak with you. Let me know how you would like to arrange.
Welcome Jamie! Hope all is well in Portland!
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Keep an eye out for an upcoming Printwear article on this very subject from Joe Clarke. Some of you may recognize the pics.
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We took the waterbase dive last fall and are having great results with the CCI line. They do have a starter kit and a very easy to use color matching system. They offer all chemicals like a hardner/remover, retarder, etc to make the jobs flow smooth. The D-base and D-White are really good. I've been running it through a mini sprint slow @ 365* I've used a few emulsions but the best one seems to be the Murakami SP-1400, largest run to date was a 1,100pc run (straight base on a 50/50 garment). Although it seems like base alone is not as harsh on the emulsion, when we use base with pigment or D-white it seems to break down quicker. Take your time and put in some time and it gets easier to deal with and the results are great. Only thing I still can't stand is all the ink we toss.
Mike