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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: 3Deep on September 23, 2011, 12:34:20 PM
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Ok I was reading all the junk about the E-stop button never use it before had no reason, so today while printing an order just to see what all the deal was I hit it. Well I learned a very good lesson, its means exactly what it sez, emergency stop, and is nothing to play around with.
Press stopped dead in its track and lock up as the table hung up on top of the indexer, had to get a prybar and lift the table just a bit so the indexer would index back. Well if your using the E-stop to stop your machine for missed shirts your asking for trouble somehow someway (on my press anyway) not a good idea. I will stay with my skip shirt button or hit my saftey bar which stops the machine without any problems and leave that DAM!!!E-stop alone unless I really have the need for it.
Darryl
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Ok I was reading all the junk about the E-stop button never use it before had no reason, so today while printing an order just to see what all the deal was I hit it. Well I learned a very good lesson, its means exactly what it sez, emergency stop, and is nothing to play around with.
Press stopped dead in its track and lock up as the table hung up on top of the indexer, had to get a prybar and lift the table just a bit so the indexer would index back. Well if your using the E-stop to stop your machine for missed shirts your asking for trouble somehow someway (on my press anyway) not a good idea. I will stay with my skip shirt button or hit my saftey bar which stops the machine without any problems and leave that DAM!!!E-stop alone unless I really have the need for it.
Darryl
On ours if I hit it, and I have due to a dumb employee I push it back in and start right back up. We run an older M&R. What are you running?
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Ok I was reading all the junk about the E-stop button never use it before had no reason, so today while printing an order just to see what all the deal was I hit it. Well I learned a very good lesson, its means exactly what it sez, emergency stop, and is nothing to play around with.
Press stopped dead in its track and lock up as the table hung up on top of the indexer, had to get a prybar and lift the table just a bit so the indexer would index back. Well if your using the E-stop to stop your machine for missed shirts your asking for trouble somehow someway (on my press anyway) not a good idea. I will stay with my skip shirt button or hit my saftey bar which stops the machine without any problems and leave that DAM!!!E-stop alone unless I really have the need for it.
Darryl
On ours if I hit it, and I have due to a dumb employee I push it back in and start right back up. We run an older M&R. What are you running?
Anatol Horizon Mini
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Ok I was reading all the junk about the E-stop button never use it before had no reason, so today while printing an order just to see what all the deal was I hit it. Well I learned a very good lesson, its means exactly what it sez, emergency stop, and is nothing to play around with.
Press stopped dead in its track and lock up as the table hung up on top of the indexer, had to get a prybar and lift the table just a bit so the indexer would index back. Well if your using the E-stop to stop your machine for missed shirts your asking for trouble somehow someway (on my press anyway) not a good idea. I will stay with my skip shirt button or hit my saftey bar which stops the machine without any problems and leave that DAM!!!E-stop alone unless I really have the need for it.
Darryl
Maybe Brannon can chime in but if thats the case thats bad engineering. The machine should immediately dump air and most electrical functions. Can't remember if my Trident or Vindicator did this.
On ours if I hit it, and I have due to a dumb employee I push it back in and start right back up. We run an older M&R. What are you running?
Anatol Horizon Mini
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Tony it did dump the air it just dumped in a spot were it it hung on top of the indexer
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Ok I was reading all the junk about the E-stop button never use it before had no reason, so today while printing an order just to see what all the deal was I hit it. Well I learned a very good lesson, its means exactly what it sez, emergency stop, and is nothing to play around with.
Press stopped dead in its track and lock up as the table hung up on top of the indexer, had to get a prybar and lift the table just a bit so the indexer would index back. Well if your using the E-stop to stop your machine for missed shirts your asking for trouble somehow someway (on my press anyway) not a good idea. I will stay with my skip shirt button or hit my saftey bar which stops the machine without any problems and leave that DAM!!!E-stop alone unless I really have the need for it.
Darryl
But wait, it didn't break? I thought the know it all on the other site side it breaking is a feature and none of us know what we are talking about? LOL.
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I did our e-stop the day all that blew up over there and I won't do it again for no reason. It's an abrupt stop on a servo indexer and although nothing was damaged, it looks and sounds like hell is breaking loose. I didn't have to get a prybar out or anything though, our press was free and acted like it does when there is no power to the machine. I looked it over really well and our servo is different than most and we don't use a capture fork for the contact point between the servo and carousel, it's a hardened pin that fits into the carousel. Our pin could bend or break in much the same way the capture fork did on that machine if enough force was applied.
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I did our e-stop the day all that blew up over there and I won't do it again for no reason. It's an abrupt stop on a servo indexer and although nothing was damaged, it looks and sounds like hell is breaking loose. I didn't have to get a prybar out or anything though, our press was free and acted like it does when there is no power to the machine. I looked it over really well and our servo is different than most and we don't use a capture Forced Unlawful Carnal Knowledge for the contact point between the servo and carousel, it's a hardened pin that fits into the carousel. Our pin could bend or break in much the same way the capture Forced Unlawful Carnal Knowledge did on that machine if enough force was applied.
EDIT: Seriously, "unlawful carnal knowledge"? WTF did that replace, I can't even remember what I tried to type?
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well f o r k me
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Yeah... Sounds like you hit E-Stop while the table was up, and the indexer was returning to the home position. Sounds the table dropped and the index bearing landed on top of the capture fork. The table will drop faster than the indexer will fall into free wheel, so some times it will land in this position. I have found that you can usually pull the table into the fork, but it depends on how it lands?? The E-Stop does exactly what it is suppose to.... All air dumps, and everything drops right where it is (On an air drive machine).... On an Anatol, the emergency stop should be used for just that... Emergencies. On the plus side it won’t break anything lol, but if it is just a miss-loaded shirt, use the skip shirt, stop button, or safety bar. This allows the press to finish its current cycle, without landing in any awkward positions ;D
Note... I believe if the press is in mid index, and a safety bar is hit, it acts like the E-Stop button. If the press is in mid print, and the safety bar is hit, it finishes the cycle?? Maybe Darryl can confirm this?
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freak
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Forced Unlawful Carnal Knowledge
F O R K
spoon
knife
spork
Nope only seems to be F O R K
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I thought if I put it in quotes it wouldn't replace it but now my post looks even more ridiculous. Fork. fork. fOrK
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Oh hell, nevermind
Padding my post count now.
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Yeah... Sounds like you hit E-Stop while the table was up, and the indexer was returning to the home position. Sounds the table dropped and the index bearing landed on top of the capture Forced Unlawful Carnal Knowledge. The table will drop faster than the indexer will fall into free wheel, so some times it will land in this position. I have found that you can usually pull the table into the Forced Unlawful Carnal Knowledge, but it depends on how it lands?? The E-Stop does exactly what it is suppose to.... All air dumps, and everything drops right where it is (On an air drive machine).... On an Anatol, the emergency stop should be used for just that... Emergencies. On the plus side it won’t break anything lol, but if it is just a miss-loaded shirt, use the skip shirt, stop button, or safety bar. This allows the press to finish its current cycle, without landing in any awkward positions ;D
Note... I believe if the press is in mid index, and a safety bar is hit, it acts like the E-Stop button. If the press is in mid print, and the safety bar is hit, it finishes the cycle?? Maybe Darryl can confirm this?
Brannon is correct the safety bar acts like an E-Stop at least on the Anatols I had up North.
And everyone stop hitting those things just to see what happens!
Happy Friday
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Note... I believe if the press is in mid index, and a safety bar is hit, it acts like the E-Stop button. If the press is in mid print, and the safety bar is hit, it finishes the cycle?? Maybe Darryl can confirm this?
Yes the safety bar stops the machine, but a little slower, I've hit it a much more than the skip shirt button. Oh and yes I think it just did what you said dumped air at the wrong spot nothing broke no problems.
Darryl
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I thought if I put it in quotes it wouldn't replace it but now my post looks even more ridiculous. Fork. fork. fOrK
we accidentally included an asterisk in the filter so it was stopping anything starting with f and ending in k. That was bad move. It was fixed, sorry for the confusion!
pierre
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there has been a lot of discussion about the e-stop elsewhere.
I didn't respond there but I will here.
We had a printer that used the e-stop, almost daly. Nothing happened, but we do have a smaller auto. I think it should be used for it's intention only, for and emergency. I don't think a missed shirt is that.
Being around machines (other than screen printing) for a long time I understand the need for these buttons. I do not believe that in an emergency when the e-stop is hit that it should render the machine with badley broken parts. I understand this is not the case with some machines. There does not seem to be this problem in the past until somebody's machine broke while using/testing/hitting the e-stop. And then the spinning (and I don't mean the machine) started. I also don't think you will find a manufacturer to tell you to NOT hit the e-stop. You'll never see that in writing, too many lawyers.
Bottom line, for me, some machines can NOT take an e-stop hit, some can.
If it is an emergency, use it, otherwise DON'T
Terry
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In the vein of the e-stop causing things to break and in the interest of fairness, I think it should be pointed out there was only one silly person claiming the part breaking was intentional and by design. Everyone else who commented said nope, that's not supposed to happen, it shouldn't have happened, and we're going to investigate, find out why it happened, and prevent it from happening in the future.
Not that I would ever come near that brand, nor sticking up for said brand, just trying to keep things fair.
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In the vein of the e-stop causing things to break and in the interest of fairness, I think it should be pointed out there was only one silly person claiming the part breaking was intentional and by design. Everyone else who commented said nope, that's not supposed to happen, it shouldn't have happened, and we're going to investigate, find out why it happened, and prevent it from happening in the future.
Not that I would ever come near that brand, nor sticking up for said brand, just trying to keep things fair.
The sad thing is, he hasn't let go of that position yet.
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Actually he has.......privately.
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Bottom line, for me, some machines can NOT take an e-stop hit, some can.
If it is an emergency, use it, otherwise DON'T
Terry
I agree, and to add to that, imagine what else they are not built as well on the machines? I doubt we are all going to assume that's the only thing they got wrong. We already know that to be false even. Hell even their own customers chose a Mustang over it when given the choice after the fact. Goes to show you the consumer confidence in the unmentioned is crap.
In the vein of the e-stop causing things to break and in the interest of fairness, I think it should be pointed out there was only one silly person claiming the part breaking was intentional and by design. Everyone else who commented said nope, that's not supposed to happen, it shouldn't have happened, and we're going to investigate, find out why it happened, and prevent it from happening in the future.
Not that I would ever come near that brand, nor sticking up for said brand, just trying to keep things fair.
I agree, and kudos to them for that. The other guy on the other hand.....shame on him.
Actually he has.......privately.
What he can't man up and say he was wrong? Dude lives and dies by whatever he spew's out of his mouth even if he realizes it was wrong.
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Hell even their own customers chose a Mustang over it when given the choice after the fact. Goes to show you the consumer confidence in the unmentioned is crap.
Actually I see it as he pushed that product on the customer OVER the Printex. That still speaks volumes about several things.
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It's amazing to me. Consider how much time each one has spent waiting on a press.
The amount of money they could have made during the waiting game is staggering. If they had ordered a M&R or Anatol or RPM or so on for example they would have had it in a reasonable amount of time. Instead they choose to "save" money on a transaction which if you actually do the math they lost money. But hey who's splitting hairs right? LOL.
BTW anyone who is wandering, my press doesn't explode when you hit the E-stop and it still functions perfect to this day, have had to do nothing to it what so ever. Don't have a single bitch.
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I'm pretty sure (not 100% so don't take this to the bank) that the replacement part came in recently and it also failed. I wonder if they attemped the e-stop again and the same thing happened and if that is the case, they should have known they were going to try that so I really hope they sent more than one replacement capture fork, but I don't think that is the case. I was told they were having a machine shop in town fabricate the part. I actually thought that while they waited on the part from Poland that they could have someone fabricate one to see if it would work. Having a machine shop fab one would have been the first thing I did when the problem came up, but I'm just a screen printer and don't really know if that part could be made as well at a local machine shop as it needs to be.
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There is a machine shop SOMEWHERE in Houston that could have EASILY knocked that part out. They have some serious shops in Houston due to the oil field. Hell, they could have easily done that in Lafayette for the same reasons and Lafayette is a FRACTION of the size of Houston.
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I'm pretty sure (not 100% so don't take this to the bank) that the replacement part came in recently and it also failed. I wonder if they attemped the e-stop again and the same thing happened and if that is the case, they should have known they were going to try that so I really hope they sent more than one replacement capture fork, but I don't think that is the case. I was told they were having a machine shop in town fabricate the part. I actually thought that while they waited on the part from Poland that they could have someone fabricate one to see if it would work. Having a machine shop fab one would have been the first thing I did when the problem came up, but I'm just a screen printer and don't really know if that part could be made as well at a local machine shop as it needs to be.
Alan: It’s certainly possible that a replacement capture fork could have been made locally in Houston, but doing it right is a fairly involved process. This part has a number of wear surfaces that include where the cam follower runs, and also the sliding surfaces of the fork itself. In order to ensure accurate location and long service life these wear surfaces need to be heat treated and then precision finished. It would have seemed to me that dropping a replacement part into a FedEx international pack from Poland would have been the quickest way to get the part onsite.
In any case I’m sure that Robert and his team know what they’re doing, and that they will get the press up and running in short time. I really think that Brian (Binkspot) is one of the best assets that the manufacturer has on their side to get the press repaired, and as long as there’s nothing fundamentally wrong with the design, engineering, or manufacture of the press, he’ll get it right. At least we’ve moved on from the nonsense that the capture fork was a deliberately designed sacrificial part, intended to break whenever the machines E-Stop was engaged.
One area where asdf and the customer both got lucky is that Scarborough Specialties has a shop full of M&R equipment that runs every day, so their production is not being totally impacted by the faults with the new machine. I’d expect that the stress level would be much higher at a shop where the new press was their only source of production.
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Alan: It’s certainly possible that a replacement capture fork could have been made locally in Houston, but doing it right is a fairly involved process. This part as a number of wear surfaces that include where the cam follower runs, and also the sliding surfaces of the fork itself. In order to ensure accurate location and long service life these wear surfaces need to be heat treated and then precision finished. It would have seemed to me that dropping a replacement part into a FedEx international pack from Poland would have been the quickest way to get the part onsite.
Why it wasn't overnight shipped is amazing to me. This is what a 100k machine? I think there is some wiggle room. Which judging by some of the quality of things so far about these machines there may be a lot of wiggle room so they should have stepped up.
In any case I’m sure that Robert and his team know what they’re doing, and that they will get the press up and running in short time. I really think that Brian (Binkspot) is one of the best assets that the manufacturer has on their side to get the press repaired, and as long as there’s nothing fundamentally wrong with the design, engineering, or manufacture of the press, he’ll get it right. At least we’ve moved on from the nonsense that the capture fork was a deliberately designed sacrificial part, intended to break whenever the machines E-Stop was engaged.
Binkspot is a shinning star in the group of them for sure, I am certain he can replace what is wrong with the machine but as you said he can't change its design so if it's a problem before its likely to continue to be one. I can almost hear the "don't hit the estop" conversations. I agree on the nonsense such and such was spewing, I don't think a sole believed that BS though.
One area where asdf and the customer both got lucky is that Scarborough Specialties has a shop full of M&R equipment that runs every day, so their production is not being totally impacted by the faults with the new machine. I’d expect that the stress level would be much higher at a shop where the new press was their only source of production.
That's very true and I bet they look at those machines much differently now. I mean after all it was clearly a habit of the operator to hit the Estop on the M&R's, they are still running. But 1 hit on the new pos machine and it breaks.
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I kind of figured having a machine shop fabricate one might not be ideal since it was such a logical decision to be made if it were possible, but I also know that machine shops make things much more difficult and for machines way more complicated than an auto so I still think it "could" be done.
I wonder how it broke this time. I assume they were testing out the e-stop again and I also assume they knew they were going to try that again as soon as the new part arrived, so did they only ship one capture fork and now they have to go through all this again or did they bring in several forks? We all know what they should have done and it seems simple to think they would have but you never know.
I have a feeling that it's a design issue and if you were to go press the e-stop on any and all of the 16 color Prisms you'd likely see the same problem. But we also know the QC is not as sharp in that plant as it is most other manufacturers so that one machine could have very easily been shipped with a different spec than it should have. What I'm getting at is maybe the camroll bearing doesn't hit the capture fork in the right location and hits it in a spot where structurally the fork is weak. The fact that Inkman's machine needed as many shims as it did while another machine manufacturered at the same time was the exact opposite when it comes to printarm height means that they aren't practicing the exacting tolerance standards as they should.
The entire Printex idea seems like a cluster F and there have been so many examples of failures on their part to bring in quality machines. There have been simple issues with every one that has been installed that none of us that have had an auto installed the last 10 years have had to deal with. Inkman's machine isn't the only one with little problems that frustrate operators. I think there are many good things about the presses but the glaring weaknesses completely outshine the good features. I honestly don't think the Printex plant has the desire to build a machine with the standards we are wanting and I also think they want to stay small and they don't want to overtake M&R as the machine of choice here in the US.
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I also think they want to stay small and they don't want to overtake M&R as the machine of choice here in the US.
If they continue to have quality issues, they won't have any trouble staying small or not overtaking M&R.
I don't have an auto, nor do I ever see myself getting one, but there's nothing worse than getting something new, especially something expensive, just to hit issues like these. Nothing is perfect, but for a company trying to get a foothold here, I'd think they'd be particularly cognizant of quality control, testing assembled presses before shipping to make sure EVERYTHING worked as advertised. Word of mouth from unhappy customers will be tough to overcome, even with cheap prices. If it's unreliable, it ain't cheap.
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Alan: It’s certainly possible that a replacement capture fork could have been made locally in Houston, but doing it right is a fairly involved process. This part as a number of wear surfaces that include where the cam follower runs, and also the sliding surfaces of the fork itself. In order to ensure accurate location and long service life these wear surfaces need to be heat treated and then precision finished. It would have seemed to me that dropping a replacement part into a FedEx international pack from Poland would have been the quickest way to get the part onsite.
Why it wasn't overnight shipped is amazing to me. This is what a 100k machine? I think there is some wiggle room. Which judging by some of the quality of things so far about these machines there may be a lot of wiggle room so they should have stepped up.
In any case I’m sure that Robert and his team know what they’re doing, and that they will get the press up and running in short time. I really think that Brian (Binkspot) is one of the best assets that the manufacturer has on their side to get the press repaired, and as long as there’s nothing fundamentally wrong with the design, engineering, or manufacture of the press, he’ll get it right. At least we’ve moved on from the nonsense that the capture fork was a deliberately designed sacrificial part, intended to break whenever the machines E-Stop was engaged.
Binkspot is a shinning star in the group of them for sure, I am certain he can replace what is wrong with the machine but as you said he can't change its design so if it's a problem before its likely to continue to be one. I can almost hear the "don't hit the estop" conversations. I agree on the nonsense such and such was spewing, I don't think a sole believed that BS though.
One area where asdf and the customer both got lucky is that Scarborough Specialties has a shop full of M&R equipment that runs every day, so their production is not being totally impacted by the faults with the new machine. I’d expect that the stress level would be much higher at a shop where the new press was their only source of production.
That's very true and I bet they look at those machines much differently now. I mean after all it was clearly a habit of the operator to hit the Estop on the M&R's, they are still running. But 1 hit on the new pos machine and it breaks.
I am sure they have it figured out by now. They mentioned the customer was going to order a replacement capture from us for the Sportsman so they should have an idea what it should look like by now! You know that reverse engineering thing!!!!!
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OK dumb question for the day. What is asdf?
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Looks like a forum auto word swap for the company that is not to be mentioned by name.
Kind of silly but at the same time... probably a good way to avoid "spam" from everyone's favorite spammer.
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For anyone late to the party, this Statement of Policy from our early days may answer a question or two.
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php?topic=247.0 (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php?topic=247.0)
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Ok I still dont get it so I will just forget about it.
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Yes the press is up and running. If you would like details there is a post on another forum, I don't want to drag the bs over here so I posted it there.
This topic has brought up a few questions and thoughts that I think all shop owners and operators should consider. Almost could be seen as a wake up call. Just curious how many owners have a plan in place to check the safety systems on their equipment and shop. Does any one check to see if the E-Stop or safety cables/bars even work on a scheduled maintenance plan, including all the equipment in the shop, not just the press. Who has their fire extinguishers checked and serviced yearly or inspected monthly? Do you have an eye wash station? Is everyone properly trained on the equipment, PPE, use of the MSDS etc. Do you have a flammable storage locker? Point being is most of the time safety is overlooked until there is an near miss or an accident, usually too late then. Just saying.
No Rich the fork was not reverse engineered, just installed on a 12 color which is running nice and smooth now.
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This topic has brought up a few questions and thoughts that I think all shop owners and operators should consider. Almost could be seen as a wake up call. Just curious how many owners have a plan in place to check the safety systems on their equipment and shop. Does any one check to see if the E-Stop or safety cables/bars even work on a scheduled maintenance plan, including all the equipment in the shop, not just the press. Who has their fire extinguishers checked and serviced yearly or inspected monthly? Do you have an eye wash station? Is everyone properly trained on the equipment, PPE, use of the MSDS etc. Do you have a flammable storage locker? Point being is most of the time safety is overlooked until there is an near miss or an accident, usually too late then. Just saying.
Well said.... safety should never be an after thought.
Oh..... and I know my safety bars work.... 'cuz about 6 times a week I forget to reset one and have to go back and close it.
But, with two people I could check them in less than a minutes time... I should incorporate that into my daily start up procedure.
Thanks.
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Yes the press is up and running. If you would like details there is a post on another forum, I don't want to drag the bs over here so I posted it there.
Thanks for not creating drama out of a already dramatic situation thanks to your buddies. Here is that post for others to see.
We were able to trace the fork failure down to a faulty relay on the machine. While running the contacts in the relay would “make and break” or “chatter” telling the servo to start and stop several, times a second. This sudden start-stop was hammering the fork until it would finally break.
In the process of trouble shooting we tried to replicate the cause and effect on another Prism II with no joy. Consulting with Printex we were quite cretin the failure was due to a faulty fork. I arrived back on site with a new fork from a different batch, checked the press to be sure everything was in place, installed the new fork and dry cycled the machine for about an hour when the same thing happened. The second fork had broken but this time I was right there and witnessed what had happened. Seeing the failure I was able to describe the events directly to Printex. With this information we traced the problem back to a relay in the control circuit. The following day I installed another new fork which a local machine shop had made, new relay and made the necessary adjustments. I dry cycled the machine for about four hours, changing index direction, speed and other functions. The press ran fine.
The following morning we started to run production and continued through out the day. When the production day was done I continued dry cycling the machine for another six hours while I completed some work on the other machines in the shop with no further issues.
I think you have proven your not really about the drama so there was no reason at least in my eyes that you shouldn't post this here, its good to see they have at least one person that seems to care and does so without slamming others.
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I also think it is great to post problems and causes on any press because it could relate to any other press as well, this way when some thing similar happens to someone elses press whether brand A or brand B they have a new trouble shooting idea to check out.
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Brandt, really I think they all care or the subject would have never come up, just cause you may have a issue with someone does not mean they don't care about there customer. Look at this way if they don't care about there customer they won't have them long or anyone else on the matter.
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Brian has been fantastic for Printex. There have been many instances where he could have lost his cool but he hasn't. I wish the whole Printex crew would take a page from Brian's book and act more appropriately.
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Alan, Brain sounds like a guy that anyone would want on there team hands down and the other blue fellers should be glad to have him...mad as I am right now I still have a little faith in people not much.
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Brandt, really I think they all care or the subject would have never come up, just cause you may have a issue with someone does not mean they don't care about there customer. Look at this way if they don't care about there customer they won't have them long or anyone else on the matter.
IMO if they "all" cared the part would have been overnighted and the press fixed the next day. I certainly do believe Brian cares though, he is the type that wants to do a good job no matter what. In fact he is the most important asset they have.
Have you seen how they treated Inkman for telling the truth. If that is caring then wow you are welcome to that my friend.