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screen printing => General Screen Printing => Topic started by: jvanick on July 18, 2015, 01:55:26 PM
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I'm trying to figure out the variables I should be messing with to get a good 1-hit white with plastisol... we've been struggling with this for pretty much ever, but now that we've got a lot of our other shop processes nailed, I'd like to start experimenting.
Any tips, help, ideas, would be greatly appreciated.
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lower mesh counts/low thread diameter.
Good E.O.M. you want to be able to feeeeeel the edge of your stencil.
Softer squeegee blade/beveled edge. SHARP. Use the lightest pressure possible.
Short bodied ink that shears easily.
Ink must be high opacity.
DO NOT PRINT BIG OPEN AREAS.
No one can achieve a good one hit white with big solid areas.
Be open minded about what a good one hit white will look like. Your opinion Vs. my opinion will probably be different.
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lower mesh counts/low thread diameter.
Good E.O.M. you want to be able to feeeeeel the edge of your stencil.
Softer squeegee blade/beveled edge. SHARP. Use the lightest pressure possible.
Short bodied ink that shears easily.
Ink must be high opacity.
DO NOT PRINT BIG OPEN AREAS.
No one can achieve a good one hit white with big solid areas.
Be open minded about what a good one hit white will look like. Your opinion Vs. my opinion will probably be different.
Pretty much what I would say except that I don't know enough about the (Short bodied ink that shears easily.) part to tell anyone that. I don't know all the different inks so this is golden from Colin.
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[/size]If you don't have an EOM meter, then on a 110 and lower, I suggest a 2/2 slow coats with a round edge and look for that glistening affect. Thick stencils feeling the raised edges leaving a valley for the ink to fall into is key.
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so what's considered good EOM? 30%? 40%? More?
we've been trying to get one-hit whites with 150-48 S mesh... I wonder if I should coat up some of the 110's that we use for hoodie prints and try those?
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Purists may not like it, but a little puff has been a standard trick for years, and in fact, is added by a lot of ink manufacturers.
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One hits whites are possible. Ok now that I said that, one hit whites are dialed in over a run, the way Colin said (good post Colin). I don't think doing them is a good everyday setup. I have a few jobs I do one hits on and it is 93 to 100 percent white. Now is that acceptable. Maybe but another hit of white would make it 100% white consistently without any fine dialing in prerun time to get the job set up.
Why do you want a one hit white...
One hit whites are good because they save time and money. Time by not having to set up another screen and money by not having two layers of costly? white ink on every shirt. If you have to change the screen to a lower mesh and softer squeegees then your adding cost to do the one hit white by putting down more ink. If you lay down more ink softly then you are also making a thicker not so smooth print. This gives you a lesser quality print in some cases. So is the one hit worth it. I would rather do two hits and have a consistent print.
The shops that have it dialed in can save money and time, but its really only worth it on the larger orders.
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I'm looking at it more as a technique for when we're dealing with less than opaque top colors, think lemon yellow... my thinking is that if I work to achieve the one-hit-white, it'll make everything else go better..
if I could get better white base, I would not have to pfpf the white and then put the yellow on top to make it look good.
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Try a 150LX...
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I would add that as far as cost of the ink -- I challenge that you can use LESS ink with PFP through a finer mesh that trying to one hit through a much coarser.
Just a thought! :)
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When an ink company can truly develop a REAL one hit white it will be a game changer for this industry...until then we all get to make the best of what we can obtain with our choice of brand and technique.
Until then printing "successful , acceptable white will be the offspring of science and art that is the foundation of this business.
mooseman
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I would add that as far as cost of the ink -- I challenge that you can use LESS ink with PFP through a finer mesh that trying to one hit through a much coarser.
Just a thought! :)
Not only do you save on less ink like Ron says but the setup is faster than sitting there trying to dial in a print that will not compare to a two screened white no matter what you do. The one hit white is like Santa. There are lots of fakes out there and people that believe he exist. In reality he does not and neither does an effective one hit white. People have just lowered their standards of good quality to accept a one hit as good enough.
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I agree with all of the above... just trying to find a solution to avoid the pfpf base issue that I mentioned above.
Alex: I'll grab a few 150LX panels next time I order from Shurloc and try them out... any other suggestions for mesh to try?
*and yes I know that I should be trying discharge underbase... i'm just scared to hell of that as much of this stuff is for church groups/runs/events where I know that kids and people will be wearing them same day, regardless if I put a wash-first sticker on or not.
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The 150LX is as low as we go, aside from speciality screens. The 150LX is fragile, but damn nice!
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We print 1000s of T shirts, with one hit (one screen two strokes) on a MHM with Wilflex Tiger White and I wouldn't enter them in a competition but our customers are happy. These are orders of around 40 shirts that we print front and back one color, definitely doesn't pay to make two screens.
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The only 1 hit I've ever accomplished is through an 80 s mesh. The print had sharp edges and it stood off of the shirt it looked like 1/8 of an inch because of an extremely thick eom using chromablue with a 1/1 coating "which by the way, you better do your best to have it skin over quickly after coating or you will have some drippage". I was using legacy white and it was absolutely 100% opaque. I was printing with a 55/90/55 durometer squeegee.
Truthfully it used more ink any day than a typical pfp.
I know that with some finessing I could probably pull it off with a 150/48 I just have to remember to add that extra coat of emulsion. I put more effort into the 1 hits on smaller runs like 50 and under to avoid revolving but most of the time I still have to.
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Back in the day one hit whites were a dime a dozen. However the white used barely printed on anything higher than an 86 mesh count screen. running the white on a turnabout for an hour or so before use was sop. So what happened? Printers complained about the limited options with said white and the ink companies listened. Printability improved. Mesh counts went up. "Opacity went down as low mesh counts introduced too much ink and consequently the ink went in the shirt instead of on it. The best white setup (Plastisol) is Russel Grey on a high mesh flash white on the mesh of your choice. Prints fast and when out of registration grey is a different color from white.
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To come in on the tail end of this post I've got one hit white on certain color shirts and yes the print area was not that big, for me getting a one hit white comes in to play if I'm using it for an underbase and only trying to use one screen one round one flash. Another thing is a one hit white for an underbase gives you a very nice print surface for your top colors without it being to thick ( I'm sure everyone that has printed here will agree a nice flat white surface makes any top color printing 100% better) then you don't have to have so much squeegee pressure for your top colors. Now far as puff in white ink I try my best to avoid any white inks that has it unless I'm doing a white only print, chasing a one hit white is like chasing a ghost for most of us and I'm to the point where it's time to stop and just print. Like sonny said the ink companies can give a one stroke white ink, but then you'l have to change your setup's and deal with a bunch more headaches.
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One hit whites=waste of time. At least for our shop.
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Our New Mustang White has ridiculous opacity through a low mesh screen.
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There are some interesting posts in this thread, some have me shaking my head and others are spot on. We do one-hits on a daily basis and I can say that you're "probably" wasting your time with the 150 although there is some artwork out there that can be done with a 150. Being able to do one-hits on a regular basis is one of the reasons why we can do the volume we do with just one auto and 3 production employees, so I'd argue till the end of time that it's worth the effort. Of course it takes a lot of time to get to the point where you can do it on a regular basis, and if working through a lunch break or an hour or two late a few days a week isn't your cup of tea, by all mean, keep on doing what you're doing and take care of your customers the best way possible.
I'm wrestling with whether or not I should spend all the time I would need to argue for the use of one-hits when I doubt anything I write would change anyone's mind one way or the other, but I'd do it all over again 10 times in a row to get us back to where we are now because of our efficiency. I know we're not the most efficient shop on this forum, but I think we're well into the top 10% and a big reason for that is our use of one-hits to get us through the day. I could throw out our stats from last week's jobs to show how efficient we are and you could relate to the stats because we all know what a 3 color job is and spread it out over a certain number of impressions and you can get a good picture of what a typical day around here consists of.
And our goal with plastisol is 100% opacity with the thinnest possible ink deposit correct? How does one achieve that? Use the least amount of pressure possible, sharp blades, fast print speed, thin thread mesh. And any little thing that doesn't help us with that goal is hurting us, in my opinion.
Oh, your mileage may vary.
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Hey all.. My first reply here on SB, But I have been on other forums for years. One hits do not cut it with our customers..at this point how do you lay the shirt fibers down with a one pass stroke? I could say 1. Use the best white you can find. QCM, Wilflex....2) light pressure as stated. 3) A 110 mesh. 4) A sanded smooth round squeegee. Although the post stated production, volume and efficiency. If your customers are fine with it.. Run with it. In our area the one hitters are normally new shops or uneducated screen printers. Our customers are usually amazed at the quality and bright whites we get on black shirts, especially after they have been using other shops in town. I will always sacrifice time effort and energy to produce a better looking product then my competitors.
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We print 1000s of T shirts, with one hit (one screen two strokes)
LOL.. that's not a 1 hit white ???
I've printed millions of shirts and will take PFP with fine mesh and a roller screen with any ink before I work some voodoo with a single screen.
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4XX multifilament with a bulletnose (half round) squeegee. Absolutely opaque white. And pretty damned heavy print. Did this with a huge run in the early eighties, ran like a charm, a lot of ink went down. Also, please don't do this, it's crazy, but it does work, LOL
Steve
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Not sure if this has been linked, but thought it might add to the discussion: http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,3961.0.html (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,3961.0.html)
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The real test of a one hit white is if you print another layer of white does it get better. If it does then your one hit white is not the best quality you can give your customer. I just printed a job yesterday, I was planning on just running around the press twice but the first and the second pass looked exactly the same. I turned off the second round and printed the shirts and saved about 30 percent of the time. I have about 1 or two of these a month. Really depends on the art. This job was all fine line text. I was using Legacy white on a 155 non S screen less then 15% EOM with a 65/90/65.
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The real test of a one hit white is if you print another layer of white does it get better. If it does then your one hit white is not the best quality you can give your customer. I just printed a job yesterday, I was planning on just running around the press twice but the first and the second pass looked exactly the same. I turned off the second round and printed the shirts and saved about 30 percent of the time. I have about 1 or two of these a month. Really depends on the art. This job was all fine line text. I was using Legacy white on a 155 non S screen less then 15% EOM with a 65/90/65.
A test I like is can you cut out a patch, fold over the edges, and defy others to determine the fabric color?
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I do quite a few backs with one hit whites, but like others have said, they are all thin line text and adding a second pass doesn't do anything. Big areas, pfp always. I can't find the post, but I believe I posted a closeup comparison of a super thick stencil one hit white using 135S vs a pfp with 225S and the opacity was identical, but the 135S you could see the texture of the threads in the top of the ink and the print was way thicker.
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The one hit whites do indeed apply to graphic content however most we go with DC UB formula often evolved here and available to most by the mfgrs. (However if its PLS its hit or miss. Large vector plastisol doubtful . Came about from a retired but respected vet.) A little bait and switch there IMO as the miracle ink is no longer available to do its magic ability to no longer be avaialable . We get it mostly done with a few trick formulas.
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Low count mesh
S or LX thread mesh
Tight mesh!
decent EOM (but remember this really only effects ink deposit right next to emulsion edges)
very precisely leveled press/pallets and even, small and perfect off contact
beveled/smiling jack or the like squeegee
hard flood with mesh-loading flood bar (or even a beveled squeegee in the flood bar spot)
very fast squeegee speed with as light of pressure as you can manage
just right white ink.
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I've managed to get a few 1-hit whites no problem.
110 S-mesh on Newmans, 30N, with a 60/90/60 squeegee, hard flood and semi-fast print stroke at about 25-30 psi.
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I just wanted to post a quick update...
so we've been playing on jobs and trying different things...
the key of getting this to work for us was the hard flood... it seems that you really want it to be like manual press fill-stroke technique where you can see the image and not have a coating of ink on top. Changing to a heavier flood made all the difference in the world.
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Especially with thicker opaque inks, a hard flood/fill really utilizes the thicker EOM
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If you get a chance, try flooding with a squeegee blade and see what happens, might work well for you. We've used Joe's Dr J blade to fill/flood for a year or two now and it will add about 15-20% to your ink deposit in some occasions. It doesn't make that big of a difference on every use, but if you need more opacity, it can certainly give it to you.
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Squeegee blade is a sweet idea. Those Newman Hydras mean business too, if you're really trying to fill your stencil.
I'm just going to throw out a blind guess for you J--next time you're playing, add squeegee pressure and speed it up.
Got AC heads?
(If so, I'm jealous. ;))
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We do have ac heads.. was one of the most important features i wanted when we upgraded. We have a rush job tomorrow, I'll get the details... psi angle speed etc.
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I'd be interested in the variable of squeegee speed...
Alan an others mention front to back in approx. 1-2 seconds,
on a dial of 8 or 10. This is a lightening quick shear for thick white ink.
I would hedge to say the rest of us - 90% - are much slower on dial of 4 or under
using a 60D or 55/90/55D squeegee at a higher angle (20-25ยบ) hitting twice.
The fast shear is a valid theory, but seems like two strokes are still needed, no?
Also, how do the s-mesh riders see it helping get near a one stroke white?
-Less pressure, more open shoots, but still need 135 or lower mesh count to get one stroke?
Too many questions, I know, but inquiring, improving minds want to know. :)
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Can't speak for the auto guys, but manually the S mesh clears (shears) MUCH better than comparable standard thickness mesh counts. I can completely clear the gummiest white in my shop on a 135S without even trying while that same ink may require a clearing stroke on a 110 standard mesh.
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S-mesh clears insanely easy for me on an auto (air heads). I'm printing with almost half the squeegee pressure I normally would be on a standard mesh.
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If you break down plastisol printing on garments to it's most simple terms, you're trying to get 100% opacity with the thinnest amount of ink possible and printing with the least amount of pressure possible and printing as fast as possible help to achieve that as much or more than any other variables. To get the most opacity with a thin layer of ink you need to put the ink on top of the shirt, and the pressure and speed you print with are the major factors in doing that. We don't double stroke when we print fast, it's not necessary for us. We don't double stroke anything under a 305 with any ink and only when printing a thick ink on a 305 would we double. Now you won't get all that much ink down with one stroke through a 225 but you can clear with one stroke easily.