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screen printing => General Screen Printing => Topic started by: screenxpress on September 25, 2011, 05:51:24 PM
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I'm at a bit of a crossroad. I have about 15 roller frames and a sh!tload of old 18 x 20 wooden (I.D. 14 7/8 x 16 7/8).
I know I should just start using the rollers, but I hate to throw stuff away. However, I might.
I have a tension meter and the 18 x 20s are like 12 - 15 newtons, pretty much a joke.
I took one of the empty rollers and added 2 washers to extend the side bars about 1/16 of an inch and found that I could use the roller to stretch new mesh, cut the mesh off the wooden frames and glue to the wood and get very usable newtons, but still 18 x 20 OD.
So here's the question -
Should I sh!tcan all the wood frames for reasons of size? Or should I for reasons of old-school? Or would any of you consider doing what I'm thinking about doing where the only cost is mesh and glue? Cannot count time as that would be the same for rollers or rollers-to-wood.
I'm not going to be doing all-over prints and the 18 x 20s can still print images about 11 1/2 by 13 1/2.
So what say you?
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Not to take away any great feeling of innovation on your part, but roller frames have been a definite seat of the pants stretching device for years.
Now, especially with good tensions, you still have to contend with warping and joints loosening, two of the inherent problems with many wooden frames.
Another time and potential PITA and health factor you need to consider is cleaning the mesh and glue from the old frames. Wear a mask when grinding or sanding this glue! You may get away with using the flip side for the first re-stretch, but then you still need to sand down a potential hand-cutting edge of cut mesh and glue on the other side.
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I bought a Diamond Chase roller frame off eBay, and cut some lumber and made a couple of frames when I first got started. They were unusable. Couldn't get the mesh to adhere properly. I don't think I ever got to use any I cobbled up. Maybe it was me.
Almost all my roller frames are 18x20 Newmans anyway, and it covers just about everything I do. Not trying to discourage you from trying it, but for myself it was a waste of time.
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Get nostalgic for old things like cars and old knifes, not old wooden frames.
Do yourself a favor and just throw em away or burn em. Then never look back to crappy frames ever again. Look for some used rollers. I see them all the time. Buy a few here, a few there and before you know it. You have a couple dozen.
I have 6 manual frames. This past week I printed 2 6 color jobs, a 3 color and 2 1 colors.
If I can use 6, you should be doing pretty good with 15 8)
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Get nostalgic for old things like cars and old knifes, not old wooden frames.
Lol.
Tom, I have used the super-glue screen mesh glue before and with a hardener, it's pretty awesome stuff.
Andy, you raise some good points about the peel off and hand-cutting-ability.
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if I may add what have heard and also seen on my press, the sweet spot is actually rather small area of the frame. Closer you get to the edge, harder it is to print. So I would get rid of them for the size if anything!
pierre
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Mechanically speaking only... wood never stops moving...never. Humidity, stress, handling etc are all a collective factor.
Taking your wood frames from 12-15 newtons to 30 newtons will really give the wood frames a challenge and schiznit will happen.
Foe nastalgia, coat them, expose a cool design and hang em up for decoration.
mooseman
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Foe nastalgia, coat them, expose a cool design and hang em up for decoration.
No matter the industry, we hang stuff on walls. Must be a guy thing 8) ;D
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Anyone have any pics of old screens used for decoration? Or your showroom for that matter?
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I'm at a bit of a crossroad. I have about 15 roller frames and a sh!tload of old 18 x 20 wooden (I.D. 14 7/8 x 16 7/8).
I know I should just start using the rollers, but I hate to throw stuff away. However, I might.
I have a tension meter and the 18 x 20s are like 12 - 15 newtons, pretty much a joke.
I took one of the empty rollers and added 2 washers to extend the side bars about 1/16 of an inch and found that I could use the roller to stretch new mesh, cut the mesh off the wooden frames and glue to the wood and get very usable newtons, but still 18 x 20 OD.
So here's the question -
Should I sh!tcan all the wood frames for reasons of size? Or should I for reasons of old-school? Or would any of you consider doing what I'm thinking about doing where the only cost is mesh and glue? Cannot count time as that would be the same for rollers or rollers-to-wood.
I'm not going to be doing all-over prints and the 18 x 20s can still print images about 11 1/2 by 13 1/2.
So what say you?
If you want, I can remesh them for you. We do it all the time at Xenon and still manufacture new wood frames. Call me and I'll get you a quote. 404-895-1796
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I seldom print the same job twice. But the jobs that are repeat i put them on static aluminum frames, and the one time jobs i use my rollers.
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Do yourself a favor and only use the newmans for 2 weeks...after that you will know your answer...you will get faster set ups ( due to registration) you will get a cleaner print ( you wont be pushing the mesh you will be shearing the ink off) and you will be happier....
sam
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Wayne, the fact that you've already got a tension meter is a reason to use the roller frames. It's usually the last piece that people add, if at all, because of the expense so you're ahead of the game. Having tight screens with consistent tension makes work easier and eliminates a variable.
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I'm at a bit of a crossroad. I have about 15 roller frames and a sh!tload of old 18 x 20 wooden (I.D. 14 7/8 x 16 7/8).
I know I should just start using the rollers, but I hate to throw stuff away. However, I might.
I have a tension meter and the 18 x 20s are like 12 - 15 newtons, pretty much a joke.
I took one of the empty rollers and added 2 washers to extend the side bars about 1/16 of an inch and found that I could use the roller to stretch new mesh, cut the mesh off the wooden frames and glue to the wood and get very usable newtons, but still 18 x 20 OD.
So here's the question -
Should I sh!tcan all the wood frames for reasons of size? Or should I for reasons of old-school? Or would any of you consider doing what I'm thinking about doing where the only cost is mesh and glue? Cannot count time as that would be the same for rollers or rollers-to-wood.
I'm not going to be doing all-over prints and the 18 x 20s can still print images about 11 1/2 by 13 1/2.
So what say you?
If you want, I can remesh them for you. We do it all the time at Xenon and still manufacture new wood frames. Call me and I'll get you a quote. 404-895-1796
No offense Sonny but come on you are supposed to be a friend to the industry why encourage someone to spend money on shipping and stretching of wood frames, someone would have to be out of their mind to spend money on wood frames. As said before wood is alive it will constantly move warp rack etc. you cannot put high tensions on wood sceens unless you want a surf board.
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LOL Inkman if what you said is true why so many shops still use wood frames? I know tons of shops running wood frames on there auto maybe not high tension jobs and still the big chose for manual press shops.
Now far as the 18x20 wood frames I still have some from the manual days and I use them on my auto for left chest prints, less emulsion and plus they are still pretty dam tight.
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Darryl I am talking about the expense to restretch wood frames, not buy new.
I know a shop in New Haven that only buys wood frames and never reuses them, they buy them use it once then throw out, they spend zero dollars on chemicals and labor. It seems to work perfect for them.
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Mike
there is a guy at the cape like that...he buys them in bulk and then tosses them after the job....he has no labor in cleaning , no chemicals, nothing....works for him...would not work for us...and that is what make this industry so great..
Sam
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It's funny that there are so many shops around us that use nothing but wood. I hate wood. It works for some people, but not us. I found the warping too much to handle. That being said, we've done some awesome prints on wood frames.
I tried printing with higher tensions and failed...miserably. I get smoother whites, and brighter prints on static aluminum frames. Don't ask how or why, I just do. And yes, I adjusted the crap out of everything from squeegee pressure to off contact with no improvements.
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Mike
there is a guy at the cape like that...he buys them in bulk and then tosses them after the job....he has no labor in cleaning , no chemicals, nothing....works for him...would not work for us...and that is what make this industry so great..
Sam
I just can't see a scenario that would be right for doing it that way. I know chems and the labor involved in reclaiming screens isn't cheap, but it's also not that expensive. There is no way that there is 15-25 bucks worth of chems and labor in every screen that is reclaimed, it's probably not even close. I know that it "works" for shops but I think they are wasting money or at least leaving cash on the table.
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Alan
he gets them for under 20 and charges 25 per screen per color per location EVERY time....so he is not losing money and does not have to do it or hire someone to do it...plus it keeps his place clean....again I could not do it with our business model but he does and has for over 15 yrs...
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Mike
there is a guy at the cape like that...he buys them in bulk and then tosses them after the job....he has no labor in cleaning , no chemicals, nothing....works for him...would not work for us...and that is what make this industry so great..
Sam
That's pretty lame when you consider the waste, sure the wood is biodegradable but not the mesh,glue and the ink residue. Why not use them once and sell them for 1/2 the price to a bacement printer.
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That is true, or work a deal with a local supplier who could take them back, remesh them and sell them as virtually new. He could probably get $2 a frame for them.
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Shawn...no clue since I am not him....I do agree though that it is very wasteful....
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Darryl I am talking about the expense to restretch wood frames, not buy new.
I know a shop in New Haven that only buys wood frames and never reuses them, they buy them use it once then throw out, they spend zero dollars on chemicals and labor. It seems to work perfect for them.
I gottcha now Inkman my bad I need to read more LOL
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... sell them for 1/2 the price to a bacement printer.
Which is what the OP should do.
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My experience, whether one sells (or buys them cheaply) or has them re-meshed, one needs to do it locally with no shipping. Shipping has always been the deal breaker when I crunched numbers in the past.
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wayne, I personally use static aluminum frames and the work great for what i do. if they rip I tear them out , recycle them and buy new. I PROBABLY SHOULD RE MESH. anyway, I believe your just starting back up and we all know the name of the game is quality and low overhead. I would use what you have both the wood and the rollers. I think your biggest issue will be the size of the wood frames. 20x24 is a better standard size. Then make a decision when you actually need screens. I am a small shop and reclaim everything so the rollers for me are more of a headache. although as stated they do give OVERALL superior results. i would roll with what you have using both and see what fits into your shops flow and business model. just my .01
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the story I heard was the printer was on a septic tank and could not flush the chemicals down the drain. . .
pierre
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Well. There was a little more to the pic that I left out. Not trying to trick anyone. Just trying to figure out what to do with the 18x20s (o.d.) in addition to the rollers, I have probably 12-15 aluminum 20x24s. Maybe I'll see if there's a couple of printers starting out and give the smallones away. I have what i need just all them darn smallwooden ones.
Tks all
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I thought I replied to this thread this weekend but I guess it didn't go through, but I was saying that if you do decide to stick with statics, wood or aluminum, make them as useful as possible by using the murakami smartmesh S threads. I know these thin thread meshes have been around a long time, but they are just now becoming popular in our neck of the woods. I've found that this mesh really doesn't elongate and stretch near as bad as the other mesh I've used. I also remember reading on one of murakami's tech articles that when stretched on static frames, they stabilize and work harden just a few newtons (2-5) from where they were originally stretched at. If you get them stretched from a good source, they should be able to take a 150/48 up to 28-30 newtons and then after a few rounds through production they should settle in at around 23-27 newtons which is really great for a static frame and is a perfect working range for that mesh. We've got one roller frame with 150/48 that is at 25 newtons and it prints like a dream.
I'm not totally against static frames these days like I was a year ago, but that is strictly because of the Smartmesh S thread. They will still never touch newman rollers as far as I'm concerned and aren't near as good of an investment, but you can make them significantly better than 99% of the statics that are being used right now.
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Alan do you know of a place around here that remeshes with Murakami's Smartmesh?
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Alan do you know of a place around here that remeshes with Murakami's Smartmesh?
Not really, but I would imagine GSG would do it but you never know about using a specific mesh. I know lot's of suppliers say they'll stretch screens with whatever mesh you want but I've never tried it. If I were serious about going that route, I'd use Murakami. They sell them on their website and you know for a fact you'll be getting exactly what you want and I bet you'd get the exact tension they recommend as well. I know it's more for shipping but this is a serious investment and if you want it done right sometimes you have to pay for it, or suffer the consequences.
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One thing I'll always add on restretching is do the math.
More than once I have seen that restretching an old wooden screen (with no guarantee that it wouldn't warp or pull apart at a corner) plus two way shipping, is only marginally cheaper than buying new aluminum static screens either locally, or only shipped one way.
You also need to find out their requirements on prepping your old frames.
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In defense of wooden frames, my old shop where I was at for 18 years printed hundreds of thousands of shirts with wooden frames, even for huge corporations like Coca-Cola and Bose. In defense of rollers, i wouldn't go back. But wooden frames work very well for simple jobs. The customer picks them up and says, "Wow, these look great!" Again, I would not go back...
Steve
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One thing I'll always add on restretching is do the math.
More than once I have seen that restretching an old wooden screen (with no guarantee that it wouldn't warp or pull apart at a corner) plus two way shipping, is only marginally cheaper than buying new aluminum static screens either locally, or only shipped one way.
You also need to find out their requirements on prepping your old frames.
I've been doing the math for weeks.
You still have to factor in re-stretching the aluminum ones all the same... and they usually charge more for that (because I guess they can).
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You still have to factor in re-stretching the aluminum ones all the same... and they usually charge more for that (because I guess they can).
No. what I have seen in the past was remeshing a wooden screen at about $15 plus $4 two way shipping (when a case of six was shipped.) while a new aluminum screen was about $21 with $1.50 shipping one way.
These prices are probably way off now, but are representative of what I have seen over the years. Decent wood frames are heavy to ship, which I believe has added to aluminum frames coming down in price.
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no, andy your figures are close . the shipping may be a buck or so off but thats close. If you deduct the money you get from from recycling the aluminum after you start to cycle the cost is even lower.
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I have a whole bunch of 20x24 wood screens from Pocono in 110 and 158 mesh and they have performed well. Out of 24 I got last year I only have had one warp on me. You have to get the deals they put on Ebay once in a while that include free shipping and I got them for around $12.00 ea. I could throw them all away and not be to worried as I have gotten my moneys worth out of them. They also have lasted pretty well even with my dip tank which wrecked havoc in short time on some wood screens I got from Ryonet when I first started out.
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The main point of this thread is getting lost.
It's not whether wooden screens perform well or not. It's whether it's worth it to re-mesh them, or even have them re-meshed by someone else.
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You are right my intention was to add that part. For a $12.00 wood screen there would be no way to have it restretched. I would toss it or put a simple one color logo on it and store it, being warped would not matter on some simple 1 color logos.
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You still have to factor in re-stretching the aluminum ones all the same... and they usually charge more for that (because I guess they can).
No. what I have seen in the past was remeshing a wooden screen at about $15 plus $4 two way shipping (when a case of six was shipped.) while a new aluminum screen was about $21 with $1.50 shipping one way.
These prices are probably way off now, but are representative of what I have seen over the years. Decent wood frames are heavy to ship, which I believe has added to aluminum frames coming down in price.
Melray's site finally came back up (honestly not sure how long it was down but I noticed the tab was still opened just now so I tried it again.
Wood and aluminum frames cost the same in shipping when you remesh with them.
It's still expensive though! 18.93 to them and 22.72 from them for six 20x24's.
I also have bought from "flyin Brian" on ebay... good deal, and he can make stuff happen even if it's not listed at the time.
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You still have to factor in re-stretching the aluminum ones all the same... and they usually charge more for that (because I guess they can).
No. what I have seen in the past was remeshing a wooden screen at about $15 plus $4 two way shipping (when a case of six was shipped.) while a new aluminum screen was about $21 with $1.50 shipping one way.
These prices are probably way off now, but are representative of what I have seen over the years. Decent wood frames are heavy to ship, which I believe has added to aluminum frames coming down in price.
Melray's site finally came back up (honestly not sure how long it was down but I noticed the tab was still opened just now so I tried it again.
Wood and aluminum frames cost the same in shipping when you remesh with them.
It's still expensive though! 18.93 to them and 22.72 from them for six 20x24's.
I also have bought from "flyin Brian" on ebay... good deal, and he can make stuff happen even if it's not listed at the time.
See attached. Remesh cost is 60% of new screen cost in the first column of each size
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Sonny, I appreciate your response, but what I have (noted in original thread) are crappy 18 x 20 o.d. frames. I think you assumed that was i.d. No worries.
That coupled with the fact that I would not put any mesh below 156 (probably 230) makes the cost prohibited when shipping is added to it. Any screen additions in the future would be 20x24 o.d. or rollers (which I already have about 15).
Hell, I even have about 5 aluminum (20x24) screens with torn mesh and when I called Graphic Solutions here local about remeshing those, they said for .50, I could get new. So much for trying to be efficient.
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Sonny, I appreciate your response, but what I have (noted in original thread) are crappy 18 x 20 o.d. frames. I think you assumed that was i.d. No worries.
That coupled with the fact that I would not put any mesh below 156 (probably 230) makes the cost prohibited when shipping is added to it. Any screen additions in the future would be 20x24 o.d. or rollers (which I already have about 15).
Hell, I even have about 5 aluminum (20x24) screens with torn mesh and when I called Graphic Solutions here local about remeshing those, they said for .50, I could get new. So much for trying to be efficient.
Noted. Here then is the mesh pricing for your retens. These are by the yard and 60" bolts. Please note that the microns are specific to our industry and as such are the proper microns for textile printing.
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Sonny, I appreciate your response, but what I have (noted in original thread) are crappy 18 x 20 o.d. frames. I think you assumed that was i.d. No worries.
That coupled with the fact that I would not put any mesh below 156 (probably 230) makes the cost prohibited when shipping is added to it. Any screen additions in the future would be 20x24 o.d. or rollers (which I already have about 15).
Hell, I even have about 5 aluminum (20x24) screens with torn mesh and when I called Graphic Solutions here local about remeshing those, they said for .50, I could get new. So much for trying to be efficient.
I made a butcher block style table top from old frame wood once... I wish I knew where it ended up, I would like it back, but lots of things I had B.M.K. (before marriage and kids) I would like back.
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We are going to start building stuff out of shipping pallet wood. I have seen some really cool things made from it.