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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: andyandtobie on August 18, 2015, 11:39:27 AM
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Hi everyone, sorry I dropped off the map for a long time, but that's what happens when you get busy, I guess. Been selling artwork and running mostly all one-color and two-color simple jobs that people have asked for, but it's time to get back to improving our simulated process stuff. So, last time I posted, you guys clued me in that I need to switch to 305 mesh for my colors, on top of a 225S base. My first assumption would be to buy 300S since we've liked using 150S and 225S, but now I'm second-guessing which screens to buy (we're using Murakami statics). If I buy 300S, will that defeat the purpose of switching from 225S, since a 300S will pass more ink than a regular 305? Will it pass too much, and maybe I should stick with the regular 305? I apologize if there's a thread for this somewhere already, I looked but didn't see anything. Thanks again to all you guys. I find 99% of my answers here before I even know what questions to ask.
Just as a refresher, here's where we were last time:
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,13613.0.html (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,13613.0.html)
This was printed with QCM 159 white on a 150S for the base, with 225S for the QMX colors, on a Printa 770 6/4 manual. Yes, a Printa, which we found on Craigslist a few blocks from here. I know people say that press is nothing but trouble, but it's what we got, y'know? It works until we can get an automatic. Going to try Triangle Phoenix White next time, planning on switching to a 70/90/70 squeegee for the base, as well.
The one and two color jobs we've done since then have been pretty uninteresting, with nothing much to report.
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As a manual printer I much prefer the 280 standard mesh over the 305 or the 300S. They are all similar, but I find with the 305 and 300S I occasionally can't get quite enough pressure on certain colors manually AND sometimes you end up having to hard flood which will pretty much ruin your high and low tones due to dot gain. 280 mesh prints like butter for me with soft flood and medium pressure push stroke. nice and clean...
300S also feels super fragile, though I have popped more 150S than anything for whatever reason...
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Oh yeah, I completely forgot that you'd mentioned your preference for 280 once before. Since we're talking about printing simulated process on a manual rather than an automatic, I think I'd better wake up and pay attention. Thanks for the reminder, Mimosa! I imagine that 280 would still give us a lot better control over dot gain than the 225S, huh? Awesome tip.
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When we print withe our manual press we use 230's yellow mesh, I've tried the 280,300,and 305 and like Mimosa find that it's hard to get a good ink flow or cover without a butt load of pressure. Now on the other hand with the 230 mesh I like to print with I try not to flood the screen at all if I've got really fine detail lines and halftones, just one nice hard print stroke and lift the ink up with the squeegee and bring back to the back...makes for a nice clean print, flooding sometimes cause unwanted dot gains and etc.
darryl
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I found that 225S puts down WAY to much ink usually and 230 does the same with any runnier inks (like black). 280 gives me the best control and best coverage based on my tests. I'm also using statics and a push stroke, so if you are using rollers with higher tension and a pull stroke, you may have different results.
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Ahhhhh.... the Printa Press.... Flash backs to working with them while I was at QCM.
Are you using the exposure unit that came with the press? The same locked screens?
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Darryl, thanks for the tip about lifting the ink and skipping the flood, I never would've thought of that. Since we started with waterbase, flooding feels like it's just something you've gotta do. But I can see that there's no risk of pushing ink though on the flood if you don't flood in the first place. I'll try that for sure! I've been running the 225S for the colors and it's just too much ink. We get bad dot gain when we lay the following color down and squish the dots out when we print the next color. Getting too much pick-up on the back of the screen, as well. Perhaps you're having better luck with the 230 with a different ink? I wonder if the heat has an effect, too. The whole works is crammed into a 10' x 12' room, and with the dryer and flash in there, everything gets hot and runny pretty quick.
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Mimosa, you've got me pretty much sold on the 280. Your methods sound so close to ours that I feel like I should be copying your techniques to get things rolling. We're also using a push stroke and statics on our manual, too. So it seems like if you're also doing simulated process with your setup, we should be able to follow your lead as a formula for success. But, I realized that I have a new problem. Where are you getting the screens? I've been buying mine from River City Graphic Supply, but I don't see anything there for 280 mesh when I look at their statics. I also buy stuff from Westar Solutions, but I don't see anything there, either. We're running 20" x 24" frames. Thanks, man!
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Colin, thanks for chiming in. Having recently bought a QMX mixing system, I've read a lot of your posts in search of wisdom. It's been a big help! We are indeed using the exposure unit that came with the press. But, you won't be surprised to hear that it's the first thing on my list to upgrade. I've been developing the screens by adjusting the time individually based on the average size of the dots on each color. Obviously not an efficient way to do things. I'm thinking I'll build a box with a 1000 watt metal halide grow light in the bottom, as a step up from the florescent tubes until we can afford a real exposure unit. By locked screens, are you talking about the plastic registration tabs that are screwed on them? We got a pile of beat-up frames when we bought the press, so I unscrewed all the plastic registration tabs off of them, put them in a bucket, recycled the frames, and bought statics from River City. I just mark holes on the new frames, drill holes, and screw Printa's tabs onto the new frames with self-tapping screws. Works pretty good. I added a chunk of automotive heater hose to the bump stops on each head, so the heads don't lift quite as high. That way, we've been able to increase the size of the frames to 20" x 24" without them hitting each other.
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Ok, since you are using their white light exposure unit, my first thought is to find out what kind of tonal range you can actually hold on screen.
This means running a piece of test film at 45lpi/50lpi/55lpi/60lpi etc... We want to know right where you start to loose dots for each lpi on each different mesh count you intend to use. This will let you know what you can and cant get away with in terms of detail....
I have seen some awesome stuff printed with that set up...... I also know it was done by people who have it dialed in to the Nth Degree..... i.e. its not simple. But, ultimately, it is doable.
My recommendation is to use 70/90/70 duro squeegees for your top colors. 70 duro for your white plate.
Watch your off contact and be aware of any pallet arm deflection when you push/pull your squeegee. If there is deflection, you will see your image not line up properly from the top to bottom on tall prints.
I am a fan of 225S mesh for base plates and we use 330/270 mesh for our top color screens for sim process prints here.
And thanks for the Kudos!
Any more questions, just post away!
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Mimosa, you've got me pretty much sold on the 280. Your methods sound so close to ours that I feel like I should be copying your techniques to get things rolling. We're also using a push stroke and statics on our manual, too. So it seems like if you're also doing simulated process with your setup, we should be able to follow your lead as a formula for success. But, I realized that I have a new problem. Where are you getting the screens? I've been buying mine from River City Graphic Supply, but I don't see anything there for 280 mesh when I look at their statics. I also buy stuff from Westar Solutions, but I don't see anything there, either. We're running 20" x 24" frames. Thanks, man!
I don't know if Kevin stocks 280 statics regularly, but I do know he has a bolt of the mesh because I have him stretch them for me. I'm sure he can stretch you some if you give him a call, using whatever frames he has laying around. He can also order them for you, it will just take a little longer. I have had him order custom sizes and mesh counts over the years without issue.
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As a manual printer I much prefer the 280 standard mesh over the 305 or the 300S. They are all similar, but I find with the 305 and 300S I occasionally can't get quite enough pressure on certain colors manually AND sometimes you end up having to hard flood which will pretty much ruin your high and low tones due to dot gain. 280 mesh prints like butter for me with soft flood and medium pressure push stroke. nice and clean...
300S also feels super fragile, though I have popped more 250S than anything for whatever reason...
I am sure Alan from Murakami will chime in here but there is a big difference between what people are calling S mesh and what S mesh is. Your meshes that you list are completely different in both open area and thread diameter if they are Saati. We use both of these as well for certain jobs. They work well for some things. The 300-34 will let more ink pass than the 280 that you are using and the 305 which are both Saati mesh with larger thread diameters. Thats assuming of corse that your not using the 280-34 Murakami sells. The mesh count 300-40 has 8% less open area than a 300-34. Thats a huge difference when not a lot of ink is passing through to begin with. There are two different thread diameters of 300 mesh which make a difference when printed. Both 300's are not S mesh. They are Smartmesh but that does not make them the S mesh like a 225-S, 310-S or a 150-S. A lot of people get it confused and wonder why it does not work like the famous S mesh does.
Hope this helps a bit as we have tried a lot over time.
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Saati also have 34 micron thread diameter.
I noticed that Nittoku market their 120 Thread per centimeter as 300/34
While Saati market their 120 Thread per centimeter as 305/34
So do they have the same mesh per inch?
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Okay, wanted to chime in to correct a few things:
1. I typo'd the mesh I have popped the most of (it was 150S, not 250S which doesn't exist as far as I know).
2. The 280 mesh I use and prefer is the 280/34 which Murakami calls a T mesh (which I believe is considered "standard" thickness)
3. The 300S I mentioned not liking is actually a 300/34 which is also considered a T mesh. I was mistakenly under the impression that that particular mesh was an S mesh because it is glued the same way as the S mesh statics I buy at River City, but it is not. I just got off the phone with Kevin and I guess Murakami does not make an S mesh static in that range because the threads are just too fragile (the closest being the 310/30 or 310S).
JBLUE: I'm using Murakami S mesh, not Saati. I was definitely confused when it came to the Murakami 300/34 I tried and disliked. The 280/34 shows an open area of 39% vs the 36% for the 300/34. The results are close, but I definitely feel like the 280/34 is easier to print with manually and I assume that is due to the small amount larger open area than the 300/34. I can't find any info on a 305/34 when it comes to open area, but I assume it would be the same or slightly less open than the 300/34 from Murakami. Thanks for posting that though as it caused me to actually verify the thread count and thickness. Learn something new every day!
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Wow, big thanks to everyone for helping out with this. It's been really enlightening! River City's website has actually been changed now to reflect the difference in thread size. Got everything ordered this morning, and it was good to talk to Kevin for a few minutes. Can't wait to try out our new screens, ink, and squeegees. Bought five 70-90-70s in aluminum handles for our top colors, and a bucket of Triangle Phoenix White. A smart guy would change one variable at a time, but I know I'm doing too many things wrong at once to not be impatient about it. Fun stuff!
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Someone mentioned 300-40 (300-HD)...I have no need for that kind of ink control now that we have all of our other factors dialed in pretty good but I just have to say that 300-HD is a goddamned tank. That mesh is in fact rather heavy duty, as the name implies. I have never seen such a high mesh count hold tension (and even be retensioned successfully, repeatedly) with such giant holes in one side or the other.
I rarely replaced those when we used it. Amazing stuff.
Okay, didn't mean to derail.
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Hello everyone, Al from Murakami here.
1. The difference between our 300T and a 305 from other manufacturers is a conversion issue from metric to our system of measurement. Thread counts listed on the bolt are how many threads per inch the mesh has before it is tensioned. Depending on the 'elasticity' of the thread this changes after taking it up to tension. It is no longer a 300 or 305, but slightly less per inch. So depending on the elasticity of the thread you could have more or less threads per inch. Smartmesh has less elongation than any mesh, it reaches tension far quicker and may have the same or a few more threads per inch depending on the tension level stretched to.
2. 300/34 = 300/T There is no S mesh in 300. The next up is 310S, which I don't recommend for textiles, basically for Industrial Printing needs. 330S and 350S are two meshes that are often used in place of 300/T in textiles. Moire is a little easier to control with more threads, but the big plus is they are less fragile. 350S also is thin enough that you can use 20 micron stochaistic and get excellent definition. 350S is my go to on our show shirts. It puts down just the right amount of ink to avoid dot gain or too much ink in a fine sim process print. I use 225S bases with 350S for color, plastisol, 225S for all color in discharge and wb halftone work, and 135/S-150S-225S for HSA. I also like 300/40 or 300/HD for automatics. Halftones do need to be curved and tonal range compressed a little on both ends, but 300/40/HD can withstand 30-35 newton tensioning which helps in plastisol printing for say a highlight white right after a flash. The higher tension helps peel off on hot tacky surfaces, especially on designs with solid areas in the base plate and halftones.
3. S-Mesh from Murakami uses our proprietary thread. It resists elongation which keeps the screen at a workable tension on statics, on press it resists accumulated elongation which is caused by the squeegee warming up the mesh and stretching it causing loss of tension, but more importantly, loss of registration. I highly recommend Shurloc panels for Newman Rollers, much less breakage since the mesh rests on the Shurloc strip and not the sharp edge of the channel which can have nicks and dents.
4. Totally agree on not flooding sometimes to avoid dot gain. I use this technique a lot on faces where I want to have smooth tonal transitions.
5. On S mesh or higher T mesh counts, round off your squeegee ends as smooth as you can. A square squeegee end is like a knife going back and forth.
PM if you have any questions on our pre-stretched screens, re-stretching services, or articles on how to handle, stretch S Mesh.
Thanks
Al
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Wow, big thanks to everyone for helping out with this. It's been really enlightening! River City's website has actually been changed now to reflect the difference in thread size. Got everything ordered this morning, and it was good to talk to Kevin for a few minutes. Can't wait to try out our new screens, ink, and squeegees. Bought five 70-90-70s in aluminum handles for our top colors, and a bucket of Triangle Phoenix White. A smart guy would change one variable at a time, but I know I'm doing too many things wrong at once to not be impatient about it. Fun stuff!
I would change the Triangle ink out at the same time. Get a double bonus doing that too....... ;)
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Not a fan of Triangle? What's your preference, if I might ask? The only white plastisol I've had so far has been QCM 159, and I have a hunch that we're victims of the batch inconsistency that people have reported here about 159. We heated it up to 90 degrees and drilled it like crazy, and it was, well, "okay." Even through a 150-S, it didn't seem like it really wanted to go through the screen all that well, and we had some pretty serious texture.
Again, huge thanks to everyone who has posted to this thread. Amazing how much you can learn here in such a short time from you guys!
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Not a fan of Triangle? What's your preference, if I might ask? The only white plastisol I've had so far has been QCM 159, and I have a hunch that we're victims of the batch inconsistency that people have reported here about 159. We heated it up to 90 degrees and drilled it like crazy, and it was, well, "okay."
...we had our QCM rep and one of their techs out to check the ink. I was told months ago to "do something" about my screens. Nothing was wrong with any other color except the white but I accepted the challenge. Upped our tension standards further, increased retension frequency, played with EOM between 25% and 300% higher, experimented with chemistry, trashed certain screens...blah blah blah blah blah....to the point where I said "it has to be the ink" ...and I'm not one to point blame or give up in the face of a technical challenge. I was head operator on that floor for over 7 years, it's not like I have no experience with that kind of stuff. I've probably printed over two million shirts, maybe twice that...maybe quadruple that (we weren't that big into analytics back then).
So I threw my hands up, they brought the tech in. He asked me a bunch of questions, rather detailed in nature...come to find that "some batches" of this QCM ink has some particle size, I'm assuming its PVC, that was inconsistent throughout some batches. Therefore if your minimum feature size was around as big as the maximum particle size (or anywhere close, probably) it would very quickly hang up in your mesh. (45LPI had no problems, 55LPI did, 60LPI wasn't worth the effort) After a round or two on the 14 color you'd have to stop and wipe down the white. Sometimes even worse than that. This is through 150-S and 150-LX...yeah, it was that bad.
It drove us nuts. It appears to be all taken care of now...but that was going on for years and got especially horrible in the past couple months.
Seems fixed now though.
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Dan, thanks a lot for posting your experience, it explains a lot. As I think I've mentioned before, I've only run waterbase up until recently, and 159 is the only plastisol white I've used so far. Your experience with it sounds almost exactly like what was happening to us. We're set at 50LPI, which I'll bet is just enough for this to be a problem. We would print a few shirts, they would look great, then we would start to get blobs of buildup that would ruin the print until we wiped the screen down and cleaned it. Then we would print a few more shirts until the blobs started building up again (and ruining more shirts). That's the biggest reason why we've been back to all-waterbased for the last six months. I'd assumed it was a case of too open of a screen combined with the wrong squeegee, but now I see that that obviously has nothing to do with this problem. Maybe we'll give 159 another try later, but I feel like I should try other whites for a year or so until the old 159 has a chance to move through the supply chain.
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Maybe we'll give 159 another try later, but I feel like I should try other whites for a year or so until the old 159 has a chance to move through the supply chain.
That sounds wise. We only switched to QCM to go phthlate free, and it was the cheapest option to do so. From the couple of times I screwed around with it on press while doing R&D I was not thrilled with the white's performance...and this is before it started becoming a problem.
My favorite white to print with is a tossup between Street Fighter and Buffalo...though I recall Buffalo having a very strange flood that you just couldn't get to cover evenly...like craters where there would be no white. Printed great though.