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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: Dottonedan on August 21, 2015, 12:24:12 PM
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Something occurred to me that much of a print shops issues have to do with art setup, color separation and also in the screen making process.
Now we know many of you here have no problem with making good screens. I can see tho, that there is a need for many shops out there. How about an area of the business where good screens are supplied for your specific high end job. 1st, lets say a business were to offer the separation service, and then, they also offer not just printed out film, but taking that a step further and offering a screen making service for your jobs. Now, I don't expect the target job to be your basic spot colors but more so the same type of jobs that someone might send a color separator for sim process. So, it's hard for many to achieve good seps, and it's also hard, to maintain holding that detail in the screen. So, what if there were a service that provides both?
If it were me, I would look at purchasing a STE2 3 head. For the purpose of offering both Pure Photopolymer and Dual Cure screens. Then, you would have the ability to be fast/efficient and kick out many screens per day. It would take some time and some industry advertising to justify the need for the STE2 right away, but would eventually get there, just like there is a need for good sim process and process seps.
So here, it begins to level the playing field even more, by providing good seps, and good screens. All that would be left would be the skill of the printer.
Down side:
* Less opportunity on the spot to re-make a popped screen or correct an error (same situation for jobbing a sep out).
* Increased cost of screens to the printer. (could be near actual price of what the customer is currently charged).
* Time allocated in schedule for shipping.
UP SIDE:
* Increased quality of screens
* added ability to see the results of screens made differently. (similar to jobbing out seps).
I see this as being geared towards newer shops breaking into sim process (also similar to the current needs for sim process seps to be jobbed out).
Estimated cost for this service (screens alone) would be in the $35.00 per area + shipping.
Turn time would be something to be worked out due to the seps.
Thoughts?
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In a similar vein, but not nearly at the same level of sophistication, I have seen local suppliers offer a complete screen service.
I think that it was geared more toward the hobbyist or Newbie who wasn't set up make his own.
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The way I look at the service you propose, there's a problem. The people you are selling those screens to.
Most of the time I imagine you will be supplying them to hobbyist who don't know much about separations. If it's difficult jobs, they might have a hard time setting them up and they will blame you for not having the screens aligned or properly separate or whatever their problem will be.
I believe you would spend too much time on the phone with people yelling at you, even if everything went smooth on your end.
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It might be tough for them to recover screen charges that high. Our screens have been the same price for over 10 years, which is less than my old company I left in '92 used to get (they're gone of course) and I still see people doing them for $15.00...
Steve
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I hear what you're saying. There is the fact that separators already do experience "the blame game". So it's nothing new. Sometimes, it is the separation service that can be to blame but for the most part, someones not using the right mesh geared towards the seps, the change the sequence, use thicker inks, soft squeegees, lay it down too heavy, etc. MOST times tho, it's typically the information in the art that is lost in the screen exposing/washing process. It does take some time to decipher where the issues came from, but we usually get there.
As for cost. I'm not sure on how to go on that, but in order to do a business like this, it's got to be cost effective yet profitable and work the time. I do already know many contract printers that charge $15.00 for films + $20.00 for screens. Screen charges are all over the place, like does one charge for a flash or not...and how much, etc. Some charge art some don't. I see most of these jobs being "special orders" where the printer wants to pay a premium, maybe take it on the chin a little (because the returns will be worth it later. Maybe it's a good enough size order where they can eat some extra screen cost or maybe thy just want a really good print result. If it's going to be a constant re-order, they can purchase the screens out right.
Along with screens, would come suggested printing procedures/guides. I have already been providing printing techniques/trouble shooting for years, and so has Coudrey and people in the same area of high end seps.
I don't know. Just thinking and getting feedback. It could work out to be a viable business for someone.
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Ive never had a screen shipment that didn't have at least 1 damaged screen so that's something to consider.
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Yea, I see there would be some risk to consider in several areas. Secure packing, heat/water damage, lost or delayed shipments.
Again tho, there are TONS of people out there that have even been in business printing for years that have just never knew to adjust there film output, add in a curve in the rip process or something that hold them back from great printing and they just don't know whats needed to get there. Just like in separation, many just can't comprehend the higher end of it. Something like this can be a good fix for many. Sure, it's not something that you will see a lot of other popping up doing the same thing...unless it's proven to be lucrative. Not sure. Just probing. There are many businesses catering to those who just don't know what they don't know. Then you have the bunch that does know, but they just want the convenience. They are out there. I don't know. maybe I'm just dreaming.
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Its a "could you/should you".........Noble idea plagued with issues
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Tony, back in the day, Cal Process, later Cal Com on San Pablo in Berkeley offered this.
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Again tho, there are TONS of people out there that have even been in business printing for years that have just never knew to adjust there film output, add in a curve in the rip process or something that hold them back from great printing and they just don't know whats needed to get there. Just like in separation, many just can't comprehend the higher end of it.
I could see myself ordering from a service like this a few times just to compare with our seps and screens and see how/where we could improve
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There's other industries that are still doing this... the local guy that prints on stainless steel control panels doesn't even own a computer... he charges his customers $300+ per screen... subs it out for around $150 or so... and then archives everything.
The screen 'maker' does everything for the guy, he just sits back and prints them...
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Could work for basic stuff. High end.........doubt it.
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There's other industries that are still doing this... the local guy that prints on stainless steel control panels doesn't even own a computer... he charges his customers $300+ per screen... subs it out for around $150 or so... and then archives everything.
The screen 'maker' does everything for the guy, he just sits back and prints them...
We are about 4 miles from Bose, and used to do the panels for their test equipment (they designed and built their own). Always 2 or 3 panels, they would supply film, photo tools actually, .007" film, heavy stuff, and we'd get a few hundred a pop. It was nice while it lasted. That's a whole other world compared to t-shirts...
Steve
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This idea could work in a city with lots of printers, where you could actually drive the screen to them like a pizza order, the problem with shipping besides what other have mentioned already is time...most jobs we get need them the day before they placed there order :o. You can never say never just when everyone has thrown salt in your eye somebody will figure how to make it work and make a profit.
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I really think for the most part it would work really well for the newer shops. I think they would be very satisfied customers. Think about this. Many don't even try "fine" halftone printing let alone multi color blending. I've done it over and over with (new to halftone printing) sep customers. I've guided them in a few emails and a single test file sent, to where for years, they were just simple vector solid spot color printers and then in one day, they print a very good sim process (on their own). This is with guidance, proper separations, and then also having them do test in the screen process. So, getting there, has already been proven that it can be done with even the most basic printers. What I'm talking about here is, making it all that much easier.
I think for the majority or (sweet spot) of the jobs would be in the 4 color process work and the 6 color sim process. A shop that runs 10-14 color press will most often already have staff that can provide that kind of quality due to the type of work they have already been doing to get them there to have a need for a 14 color press. With the 4 color process, once you have the correct seps, the correct screens, the rest is on press and that type of work relies heavily on the ink. So, since it's already thinner, and designed for fine halftone printing, it would be easier to achieve from a newbie.
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Pre made imaged screens are the norm in the electronic industry. Textile is a bit different. High volume companies can afford good in house pre-press art and screen making. The mid size shops would welcome this skill set, but would eventually bring in house or learn how to do it. Too many variables downline, what inks? Mesh? Tension, press registration, etc So many things that would make a good set of screens not print well. Seems like the sale would have lots of back end tech support for new companies that don't know how to print sim process, modify inks. The sequence would have to be proven. Many times in sampling a new design, revisions are necessary to pass approval. However this would work for shops who know what they are doing, and needed outsourcing of pre-press and screens due to too much work.
We have all the tools to do this here and found that the time delay was a deal killer. It is possible in a well equipped shop to go from Art to Press in under 4 hours with as complex a design as can be printed. Outsourcing would require companies to pad their delivery and most customers I ever had thought we just pushed a button on a copy machine and 600-20,000 shirts would be at the back door printed and packed the next day. (I have had 10k fund raiser runs come in Friday Morning and want 2000 shirts that afternoon! We delivered next day but pulled an all nighter since we had to pick up shirts at 3 different locations to get all the sizes filled and started printing around 8 after dinner, and he wants a discount since it is a fundraiser? No sir, you get to pay the time and half not me.)
The other key area I see is the better print quality that could be had, but a lot depends on the printer's press set up skills. If it exceeded anything a shop can do on their own, there would be a market, but at what percentage of all work?
Al
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This is a neat idea but time is the killer. What if a screen pops and they need a re-do? That's another few days of waiting.
Plus how do you decide what screens to use? Are you using S-mesh statics? Chances are the customer is not familiar with these, then maybe you have to educate them on all of these little extra things that are STILL needed to get a good print besides just a good screen.
To me, for the money you have to put out and the inventory of screens YOU would need to keep this is a money pit. I don't think this is a build it and they will come thing either. You have to really get your name out there and do a lot of marketing. You'd have to explain to every potential customer who you are and why they should use your services. Not an easy task.
I think maybe some consulting would be a better gig. TEACH someone how to make the good screens, choose the right screens, sep things properly, etc. Or bits and pieces. Maybe even sep and send the films to people for them to learn. I think you'd make a lot more money doing that and in the end help a lot more people.
Just my two cents.
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In Europe and South America we are placing I image units into shops that have never made a Screen before BC they had a service like this.
But with the uni-kote, image and eco rinse it takes a lot of the guess work out.
Now they just have the normal artists do seps (or they come from vendor) and away they go.
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That would be the other thing to do is get an auto coater for precise EOM. An Eco Rince, would be ideal as well. A business like this taking advantage of these process improvement machines would be a great benefit but like people are pointing out, there are some drawback to the business model. I don't think that training/trouble shooting issues would be any harder or time consuming than it is already for just doing separation work and trouble shooting those results. I like the idea very much but you would have the turn time, added cost factor and troubleshooting as part of the business. In running the numbers thru Beacon Funding, this is viable based on separation customer order type and order history. Add to that, managing a small team of separators and advertising in the trade mags, that business could be booming. I doubt tho that it would be a business that anyone can get into. Someone like a Joe Clark, Coudrey, or Lon Winters kind of guys. Must be something to it not working as well, since they aren't doing it. Maybe not as profitable? Like maybe, yes, you could make a profit on it, but could you do enough, to make it worth building your business around that entire idea? Kind then justifying the statement, yes you can,/but should you?
It seems that you might need to sell these screens on the low end, at $25.00 and on the high end at 35.00 area. Could be pro rated the more screens you do in a job. You could do a lower price and still make a profit but not that great of a profit. Still tho, that is a worse case scenario of only doing averaging one 6 color job a day. You'd have to make payment on your equipment per day + a profit. Obviously the more orders you get in per day, the better. The whole reason for the STEII is to be able to handle 3-400+ screens a day. One would need to get there name out there pretty well.
People look at the screen price of 30-35.00 and say well, we could never charge that to the customer. Well, people also say that about separation charges. Coudrey sells a single color separations at $115.00 if you order only one time a year and $90.00 per job if you've ordered multiple times this year. If you want the really good stuff, It's a premium price (per color). People will pay for that extra service.
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Do you currently sell films if you separate? I just had a job that I made way too complicated by trying to sep myself. And then after burning screens and doing test prints, I realized that sep'd wrong and printed over what should have been the shirt color. When trying to fix...my rip stops working. Needless to say, I will probably be taking advantage of your services for future sim process jobs. I would buy pre printed films to use my own expo and emulsion.
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I like the concept, but the shipping costs alone would be a deal killer for me right of the bat. Not to mention waiting how many days if one pops on press or something. Then next day air shipping costs...
Darryl has the right idea, it could work here where I am. One of our vendors does offer outputting films and burning screens I'm 90% sure, no CTS though.
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our city is known to be the city of Batik. We have people who offers reclaiming and burning services. we supply the films/laser printed paper and they do the rest..... the end product is a good varnished screen. they coat the emulsion with wood varnish to make it last longer.
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