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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: bimmridder on September 03, 2015, 09:01:25 AM
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I am curious about something. This is directed towards people using a computer to screen system now. Brand, size, etc doesn't matter.(I know I left an opening there) I don't want to hear about what brand is better than another. Nothing to do with my question.
I've seen and heard people say they can't live without their CTS. So I was wondering this morning.....What is it REALLY worth to you. Knowing what you know now, would you have paid more than you did? If it cost 1.5 times as much, would you still have made the purchase? Would you have done it sooner? How valuable is it to you? Heaven forbid, if you lost yours in a fire or other event, would you replace it? Is it a fad?
I am just curious of the worth of the machine to you. Not hunting, not digging, not on any mission. Just curious.
So current users, care to share your thoughts?
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We would never go back, in fact, every once in a while we will make film for something or another and all reflect on how horrible that process was. The amount of time saved is incredible, both in the handling and the accuracy when you get to press.
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if it cost 1.5 or 2x as much, I'm not sure we would have been able to purchase it when we did...
however, now that we have it... it's worth 4x as much.
cart before the horse?
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if it cost 1.5 or 2x as much, I'm not sure we would have been able to purchase it when we did...
however, now that we have it... it's worth 4x as much.
cart before the horse?
What Jason said, I agree totally with his analysis.
~Kitson
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We don't have one, and can't see spending the money on it. We make upwards of 40 screens a day tops. I'd really like to see the ROI if anyone could share. Maybe if they were half the price, but even then. I'd rather get a newer press to replace our '94 Gauntlet. (We also have and MHM 10/12) That's this old guy's take anyway...
Steve
ps. When we switched from photo film to inkjet, it was no brainer, and the cost to covert was pretty short money, even 3 -1400's and a 4800 later...
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We don't have one, and can't see spending the money on it. We make upwards of 40 screens a day tops. I'd really like to see the ROI if anyone could share. Maybe if they were half the price, but even then. I'd rather get a newer press to replace our '94 Gauntlet. (We also have and MHM 10/12) That's this old guy's take anyway...
Steve
ps. When we switched from photo film to inkjet, it was no brainer, and the cost to covert was pretty short money, even 3 -1400's and a 4800 later...
that really depends on what your time is worth. that is the only thing money can not buy and this machine gives us some of that back. Quality of life is improved and that, to me is priceless. You can always make more money, you can't make up time. but that's this young guys take. ;D
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We don't have one, and can't see spending the money on it. We make upwards of 40 screens a day tops. I'd really like to see the ROI if anyone could share. Maybe if they were half the price, but even then. I'd rather get a newer press to replace our '94 Gauntlet. (We also have and MHM 10/12) That's this old guy's take anyway...
Steve
ps. When we switched from photo film to inkjet, it was no brainer, and the cost to covert was pretty short money, even 3 -1400's and a 4800 later...
I would look at it as to buy the films and ink to print them..maybe $45 per day - at 40 screens per day. Just averaging. multiply that by 30 days - $1350 per month.
Maybe thats the payment on the CTS , so pay same price just to make things much easier. Seems to me a no brainer. LOL
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we don't go through anything like that for film. We print a ton of reorder work (a couple dozen contract customers with 15 - 20 year histories) so a lot of the films already exist. We always have a few jobs ready to go at the presses, and I find it hard to believe that a quick remake would go faster than putting the film on the screen and burning it (The MHM FPU is super fast). I appreciate the help though, I'm going to do some more work when I have a chance...
Steve
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no matter what we did, we could not keep films organized and would always loose one or get water on it or some stupid thing. So that slowed us waaay down on the reruns. The time lost in searching for films was brutal. Plus the glass heating up on the star light was getting annoying...
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If my company was going thru 60 or more screens a day with different art then yes it would be a no brainer to go CTS to move production faster. I will say this the next big thing will roll out and everyone will jump on that as well and wonder how they ever went without it, just like having a cell phone now days, for some the CTS is money very well spent for others it's just a hey I got one too!!! 8)
ps I think CTS is here to stay and more companies will jump on board and the price might come down some maybe, what where screenprinters using before the epson and inkjet film came a board in 2005?
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Knowing what I know now, id pay more. Not sure I could have done it at the same time but would still do it sooner than later.
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I know for a fact that we could not cycle through as many jobs per day when we are busy without it. As far as film cost justifying the purchase, it doesn't but even if it cost me the same as far as materials to produce a screen using cts, I would still do it just because of the ease of setup now. I could go back if I absolutely had to but it wouldn't be happily. Before I did though, I would beg, borrow or steal from Peter to pay Paul to replace it.
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no matter what we did, we could not keep films organized and would always loose one or get water on it or some stupid thing. So that slowed us waaay down on the reruns. The time lost in searching for films was brutal. Plus the glass heating up on the star light was getting annoying...
As long as they get put away in the right place, it's great. We have the fortunate combination of 5 people (myself, my partner, our artist, our screen guy and production manager) having worked together upwards of 30 years (almost 40 with the artist) so we have a system (the alphabet, pretty technical) but maintaining is the important part. At my old shop, where I was the screen guy, and my current screen guy was my assistant, we had custom cabinets, and custom large manila file folders made.
Steve
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we save about 1.00 per screen in just materials
before - average 4 rolls of 36"x100' film per month
after - average 1 bottle of i-Image ink
average for the past 11 months:
51 screens per day
1074 screens per month
11 bottles of ink
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Film for us was always a pain to dig up. I can't tell you how many times we'd dig up a job and find 1 of the flims was missing or some issue with it. Sure we could have been better at it but we no longer have to worry about that. So when your doing film you must count time spent putting it away and finding it again plus time spent lining it up on your FPU.
I wouldn't go back, id even suggest id take a less amazing press than ditch my CTS.
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Film for us was always a pain to dig up. I can't tell you how many times we'd dig up a job and find 1 of the flims was missing or some issue with it. Sure we could have been better at it but we no longer have to worry about that. So when your doing film you must count time spent putting it away and finding it again plus time spent lining it up on your FPU.
I wouldn't go back, id even suggest id take a less amazing press than ditch my CTS.
It takes less than 10 minutes to file the previous days work, by someone in the office actually, not a production person, cost is 0 essentially. Losing a film, maybe one in 500 times, because we have always taken good care of them. Some of the issues others mention regarding film are simply not a problem here. As far as speed, do some of you have presses sitting idle because you can't get screens made ahead of time? We do maybe 150 - 200 sheets of 13 x 19 a month @$0.80 per (remember, a lot of reorder work) and ink is dirt, $30.00 a pint, about 4 months worth average. Not that I don't like new equipment (an LED exposure unit to replace our 5K MH is high on the list) but none of us can see the CTS as an advantage at that cost... I hope I haven't hijacked the thread, but I really appreciate the input from everyone.
Steve
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I follow these threads, though I don't have a CTS and won't ever get one most likely. As far as ROI, I think everyone has pretty much conceded in every thread that it would take a high screen volume and a long time to recoup the cost alone. Many shops probably would never see the actual break even point over an efficient film setup. At the same time, as you can see in this thread, I think those with a CTS would argue the quality of their work and the quality of life due to workflow efficiency make it worth the investment. At least that's what I see in every single one of these threads...
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can anyone post a close up pic of a 50 line halftone on a screen before it burns? Only if you have time of course, I'd like to see the quality of the dots
compared to a piece of film, but I know everyone's busy, so only if it's convenient.
SteveI know for a fact that we could not cycle through as many jobs per day when we are busy without it. As far as film cost justifying the purchase, it doesn't but even if it cost me the same as far as materials to produce a screen using cts, I would still do it just because of the ease of setup now. I could go back if I absolutely had to but it wouldn't be happily. Before I did though, I would beg, borrow or steal from Peter to pay Paul to replace it.
What press do you run? Were you using a TriLoc before?
Steve
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Broken record here...... Without dts I would quit...... I have absolutely no desire to print another film ever
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If I could afford a Mercedes I would never drive any other car, why because it rides and drives like a dream looks nice and makes me feel special, why don't I like driving a VW bug slow, don't drive good and it makes me feel cheap...now the big thing I see a dts/cts is perfectly registered screens 99.99% of the time without a lot of work 8)
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If I could afford a Mercedes I would never drive any other car, why because it rides and drives like a dream looks nice and makes me feel special, why don't I like driving a VW bug slow, don't drive good and it makes me feel cheap...now the big thing I see a dts/cts is perfectly registered screens 99.99% of the time without a lot of work 8)
yes sir -- the real savings would be the reduction of downtime on press....
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here's the way I look at it.
- Savings in film -- roughly $100-$200 per week depending on the season
- Savings in registration time -- I don't have to register films to carrier sheets, I don't have to register on press (most of our jobs go on with no microing these days, if we need to micro it's a quick shift)
- No pinholes
- Better exposed screens due to no glass and no film haloing...
- No need for registration marks on most jobs (all? -- we RARELY print registration marks anymore)
- Less tape to pull at washout due to no registration marks and no pinholes.
- no cost in folders to archive films
- no time in archiving films
- quicker exposure times
- WAY quicker learning curve for a new hire to expose screens and have them in just as good of registration as anybody on staff
I agree with Danny-- if we had to go back to film, I'd quit the industry.
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Film for us was always a pain to dig up. I can't tell you how many times we'd dig up a job and find 1 of the flims was missing or some issue with it. Sure we could have been better at it but we no longer have to worry about that. So when your doing film you must count time spent putting it away and finding it again plus time spent lining it up on your FPU.
I wouldn't go back, id even suggest id take a less amazing press than ditch my CTS.
agree!
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can anyone post a close up pic of a 50 line halftone on a screen before it burns? Only if you have time of course, I'd like to see the quality of the dots
compared to a piece of film, but I know everyone's busy, so only if it's convenient.
SteveI know for a fact that we could not cycle through as many jobs per day when we are busy without it. As far as film cost justifying the purchase, it doesn't but even if it cost me the same as far as materials to produce a screen using cts, I would still do it just because of the ease of setup now. I could go back if I absolutely had to but it wouldn't be happily. Before I did though, I would beg, borrow or steal from Peter to pay Paul to replace it.
What press do you run? Were you using a TriLoc before?
I have a 10 color sportsman E. I wasn't using the triloc but something pretty similar.
Steve
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If I lost this machine in a fire...it would be replaced immediately. I'll never go back to film. Was it worth the 62k...I'm a cheap ass so I'll say no. It's just a damn over sized printer... 62k is kind of crazy if you think about it
It has however in my mind paid for itself already (6 months). The output my shop has seen from pre-I-Image to now has been over double, especially on our small runs days. Majority of smaller runs 36-200. 2-6 colors mostly. This is partially due to we never used tri-lock before. For instance today on one press we printed
2054imp 61 setups 28 jobs...
We run a tight ship. So tight that I'll even go in and burn screens so my guys can stay on the presses. If I believe that I am worth XXX$ per hour as I bring in all of the work to make the company tick.....etc then the I-Image has paid for itself.
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I think once some shops finally dip into CTS they will sing the same tune we all are that have them. Wish they did it sooner, didn't understand fully how good it makes the process, wouldn't live without it and at the end of the day a drop in the bucket as far as cost to run a shop.
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what I love is I can run a job and say, hey next time I would do this, so I change it in the file and next time it's fixed. No need to file or output film. just pull the file and hit print
pinholes...man do I not miss those. I get them every 100 screens or so. Mainly because we still shoot through glass, but we are raised off it 1/4" so we don't smear the print. It slows the expo time down enough to help us dial it in better. and I never got around to building a drawer under the glass.
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what I love is I can run a job and say, hey next time I would do this, so I change it in the file and next time it's fixed. No need to file or output film. just pull the file and hit print
pinholes...man do I not miss those. I get them every 100 screens or so. Mainly because we still shoot through glass, but we are raised off it 1/4" so we don't smear the print. It slows the expo time down enough to help us dial it in better. and I never got around to building a drawer under the glass.
A prime example of that is the other day I had a 7 color simulated job setup on press and the client was super picky about the job and told me the black was too dark so I adjusted the black in the original separations and reprinted that 1 screen. I set the second black up with the triloc and it was spot on. With the old way I would've had to leave the original films on the FPU to do the same. If I had moved the originals to make more screens for another job, I would've had some microing to do for sure.
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what I love is I can run a job and say, hey next time I would do this, so I change it in the file and next time it's fixed. No need to file or output film. just pull the file and hit print
pinholes...man do I not miss those. I get them every 100 screens or so. Mainly because we still shoot through glass, but we are raised off it 1/4" so we don't smear the print. It slows the expo time down enough to help us dial it in better. and I never got around to building a drawer under the glass.
not to hijack even further but are you using that Bulls Eye reg pallet system or whatever it's called? I know you tested that out a few years back. I have a homemade reg pallet and it's on, but only about 90% of the time. Not good enough to capitalize on our dts investment. I may have to buy a triloc platen or something. I was hoping that jig was the ticket..
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what I love is I can run a job and say, hey next time I would do this, so I change it in the file and next time it's fixed. No need to file or output film. just pull the file and hit print
pinholes...man do I not miss those. I get them every 100 screens or so. Mainly because we still shoot through glass, but we are raised off it 1/4" so we don't smear the print. It slows the expo time down enough to help us dial it in better. and I never got around to building a drawer under the glass.
not to hijack even further but are you using that Bulls Eye reg pallet system or whatever it's called? I know you tested that out a few years back. I have a homemade reg pallet and it's on, but only about 90% of the time. Not good enough to capitalize on our dts investment. I may have to buy a triloc platen or something. I was hoping that jig was the ticket..
I'm the one who made the bulls-eye jig. I could never get the clamping system 100% the way I wanted it. With it, I was about where you are, about 90%. My eyesight is getting worse so it was only as good as I was as far as placing films. When I went cts I went ahead and bought the triloc with it so that the stops would match.
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oh no kidding?! That's cool, I loved the concept of not removing a platen...too bad it never panned out. I'll start shopping for a used triloc platen, see if I can hunt something down.
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oh no kidding?! That's cool, I loved the concept of not removing a platen...too bad it never panned out. I'll start shopping for a used triloc platen, see if I can hunt something down.
By the time you find one it will probably be the old style full size unit used and abused where a new one is readily available, smaller, lighter, and not that expensive
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How reliable is the CTS? How many of you have had days when it did not work?
Do you have to still keep a film printer as a back up?
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we have not had a single day with it out of commission in the 9 months we've had it... and we have the older unit with the epson print engine.
We do still have a film printer, but it's only seen a few pieces of film here and there (mainly for glitter/hd prints which trip the laser on the I-Image)
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How reliable is the CTS? How many of you have had days when it did not work?
Do you have to still keep a film printer as a back up?
With the ST, not a single down day or minute even so far. We had a single down day on the older version due to tit would not recognize the ink carts anymore.
We no longer have a way to output film other than our ST, we trust it that much.