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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: jvieira on September 07, 2015, 03:41:24 PM
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We use static screens, as standard as they come.
My problem with them is that it seems like every 3 months I need to send at least 10 screens back to get new mesh because:
A. they lost tension
B. the mesh ripped
C. the glue didn't hold and they opened
Today we got 10 screens back from our supplier. When I looked at the invoice I saw a bill of almost 400€, which is nuts! Doing this at least 4 times a year, it'll cost us 1600€-2000€/year.
I hate paying for stuff I don't really need to so I started looking at roller frames. Of course no one sells them in Portugal and I would need to buy them anywhere else in Europe, which - of course - it'll cost a bunch in shipping costs alone. In the long run it might be worth it, I reckon.
So, here's my question:
What is the difference between the Newman and the shur-loc?
I see the shur-loc has a system to retrofit our standard frames and the tensioning system is a lot cheaper than the newman. I do see a lot more people using newman frames, though.
How does the quality compare?
How much do they cost?
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We use statics and have a pneumatic stretcher I built.
Saati sell a good stretching unit, you can pay for it a few years and they last forever.
I won't comment on the others because I don't use them.
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I have to ask a question that I've seen on previous posts where people redo their own statics.
Isn't there a problem getting the old glue off safely? I.E. no dust and residue from grinding?
Just curious.
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I use newmans with their pneumatic stretching table, and Shur-loc panels for roller frames that have the corners pre-softened. I never got really good at stretching bolt mesh, but the Shur-loc panels mount and tension up in a minute or two. I make sure there are no burrs along the leading edge of the channels, and I've never had one tear along the edge. They're not cheap, but they perform as advertised.
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I use newmans with their pneumatic stretching table, and Shur-loc panels for roller frames that have the corners pre-softened. I never got really good at stretching bolt mesh, but the Shur-loc panels mount and tension up in a minute or two. I make sure there are no burrs along the leading edge of the channels, and I've never had one tear along the edge. They're not cheap, but they perform as advertised.
Which ones do you prefer? I like how quickly the shur-loc panels can be mounted. In a fast paced shop, it makes all the difference.
Cost is important but statics are not only expensive, they keep costing me money as time goes by. If I can buy a slightly more expensive frame that'll save me money in the long run, I have no problems with it.
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I`d probably would not buy Roller Frames again considering the trouble we have now with the last batch we bought 3 years ago.
Apart from that they are totally overpriced for what they are.
400 Euro just for restretching 10 frames is crazy though, unless it`s all super high mesh counts. Well even then I would think it`s a bit overpriced.
We are getting 10 frames stretched by Murakami with 150-S and 225-S and that cost us around 240 Euros and they are all at 28N when they get back to us.
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The issue is not so much using statics but the high stretch, imbalanced warp vs weft mesh being used.. All the problems you are experiencing with the screens, other than price, is the mesh selection and the higher complications involved in stretching them efficiently.. Or you may just be running too high an offcontact.. But from your other posts that you state slow speed and double stroking it indicates less than optimum mesh selection.
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I use Newman. I think Rocker is not alone. I also received some rollers that were not in perfect condition.
I won't go down the road of Shurloc because of where I live (Indonesia). Anything I import that is over US$50, I get hit with a total of 38 to 40% tax or duty.. Oh the government also tax me on deliver cost as well.
I use bolt mesh, this allows me to choose Saati or Nittoku (aka Murakami) from local distributors.
So for me, it all comes down to running cost. Not ease of use.
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The conversion system that shurloc offers is okay. We attempted that route originally but after some time in production we noticed the conversion strips pulling away from the frame so we abandoned that idea and just bought more proper shurloc frames.
We do appreciate the ease of use that shurloc affords, but if we were a much smaller shop that move A LOT slower, or a larger shop with a dedicated screen tech we'd use rollers to reduce costs.
If I were in your shoes I'd strongly consider finding some of the older newmans and getting great at stretching myself. Seems like it would allow you to keep those costs down.
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We do appreciate the ease of use that shurloc affords, but if we were a much smaller shop that move A LOT slower, or a larger shop with a dedicated screen tech we'd use rollers to reduce costs.
If I were in your shoes I'd strongly consider finding some of the older newmans and getting great at stretching myself. Seems like it would allow you to keep those costs down.
How so? What are the difference in costs over time? Mesh?
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Which ones do you prefer? I like how quickly the shur-loc panels can be mounted. In a fast paced shop, it makes all the difference.
Cost is important but statics are not only expensive, they keep costing me money as time goes by. If I can buy a slightly more expensive frame that'll save me money in the long run, I have no problems with it.
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If you're talking about frames, Newmans as opposed to the Chinese Sefar frames. The Sefar frames are heavy and I've had the threads strip in the socket.
As for the panels, they cost almost as much as a static frame, but taken care of, they last years and (obviously) stay tensioned as long as you tend to it.
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When I first started with newmans, I opted to get shut-loc panels. I am a tiny two many operation so any time u can save is worth spending a little extra. Take care of them and hey will last. Mine have all been work hardened and now they is little upkeep.
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So, here's my question:
What is the difference between the Newman and the shur-loc?
The Newman is a true retensionable screen system where the Shur Loc EZ frame system is an advanced static frame.
I have extensive use with both systems and both have their pros and cons.
Given the option, I will always side with retensionable for the ability to re-tension the mesh back to it's optimum levels.
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The Newman is a true retensionable screen system where the Shur Loc EZ frame system is an advanced static frame.
Given the option, I will always side with retensionable for the ability to re-tension the mesh back to it's optimum levels.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but what you're saying is that when the shur loc mesh loses its tension (and it eventually does), it's done, you cannot reapply it and regain tension. Is that correct?
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You have the option of getting different bars for the EZ frame for one more pull on the mesh, after that no more.
I will say, the initial tension of the EZ is high, higher than a static and will stay there for awhile, however just like a static, over time is gets to a point where the tension falls below optimum levels and needs replacing.
The newman and the Shur loc are both systems that require maintenance, the newman is pretty hands on while the Shur loc is more one and done.
Both systems benefit from panel mesh and when used with S-threads, both systems excel at ease of printing.
At the end of the day, it's the users choice on if they want the ability to re-tension. Some people just don't care and will make any screen work, others want the complete control and or found the benefits of 40n plus printing.
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In my shop we use both type of frames. Newman's for 95% of direct printing and static frames for transfer printing.
Static frames are not Shur-loc, but of high quality producer. For statics we use Sefar 1500 PET mesh and good stretching service who is providing excellent service to us. We experience no delaminating of glue, and only minor loss of tension. Of 150 screens roughly 30 get new mesh each year. Some frames are few years on same mesh. On those tension drops from 25+N to 22-23N, for 150 mesh.
All ink removal is done in automatic machine, meaning a lot of exposure to chemicals for adhesive. I want to say that proper choice and application of adhesive is durable solution.
I think choosing right partner that stretches your screens is crucial. Good stretching service is better than what you can produce in house.
We use Newman's just like most of us. We use Roller table for fast and easy uniform stretching...No need to explain much.
If I compare both systems today vs. 10 years ago, tables have changed. 10 years ago, plastisol were more challenging to print than today. We needed higher mesh tension. S mesh was too fragile, and not so tension constant after being stretched. There were no water based HSA inks. Both inks and meshes are improving and there is less need for tension in 40-50N range. Properly stretched static frames keep tension.
When we started using roller frames all stretching services we tried were not performing the way we needed. Rollers were logical path. If I started buying screens today I would only buy statics. Opinion I present here is based on my shop only. So it's very subjective.
Boris