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screen printing => General Screen Printing => Topic started by: Dottonedan on September 29, 2011, 02:19:19 PM
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I am not ever going to go into who did this. That part is not important as I expect they learned from fear of having to do a refund. :'( Luckily that never happened. Nothing was ever said from the customer. They were giveaways so that might have played a small part in why it was not gone after with a vengeance but still, they paid a decent price for this. What happened could happen to anyone of us if we are not paying attention or get too rushed. This was for 40,000 units. Imagine how that can affect your business if you do not cure your next big order correctly. :-[ This printer was indeed under the gun by the customer...but did have ample time to run them slow enough to cure them better than this. ::)
Anyone know of any other reason why these get as bad as they do or is this the full result of poor curing?
It was noticeable by about 50% less than this at the first wash. They get worse with each wash. It looks as as if some areas of the ink was cured more than other areas.
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Man, that looks like a print that took skill too. And then to mess it up on the cure is terrible. I think it's simply an undercure. Some parts might have been higher than others and that is why they cured better.
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You will never know without re-creating exactly what happened. White ink is getting much more expensive and the use of extra fillers is possible. Oven issues abound. If they were under the gun for a large run it's not uncommon for operators to speed the belt up to keep up for instance. Simple QC stretch test will usually catch this but not always. Doughnut probe that oven and check for weak spots.
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That would be 99% of the printed apparel that Walmart sells or is produced in China. I once had a customer try to argue my "our prints will not fade or crack" statement on my website saying that cracking and washed away parts of designs will happen no matter what over time, as if it is to be expected.
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That would be 99% of the printed apparel that Walmart sells or is produced in China. I once had a customer try to argue my "our prints will not fade or crack" statement on my website saying that cracking and washed away parts of designs will happen no matter what over time, as if it is to be expected.
Last year I think, I showed/posted a picture of me wearing my shirt I bought a few months earlier at Wal-Mart of a fishing design. Over time, it faded out to almost gone. While walking through Wal-Mart one day, I notice the shirts and thought WOW these are much brighter than mine...wait...mine looked like this when I bought it. WOW. I didn't even notice until side by side. The distressed look is so far in style that I forgot how bright mine was when I first got it. The loss of vibrancy was so subtle over time that I never noticed. I assumed that it was just the type of design. I need to find that pic and post it again. Maybe we should have a section showing examples of what NOT to do.
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Whenever I store by shirts for my kids I'll bring it to the shop and run it through the dryer with the next order.
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ink will crack over time, it just does. the main ingredient in washing detergent is sodium and it will dry plastics out. It's much later down the road, but eventually white ink will crack.
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That is true for plastisols. If they printed with discharge no problem.
Just sayin'
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We had an issue with that lately, and discovered that the printer added thickener, and was way to liberal with it. It wasn't exactly ink anymore, so it fell off in the first wash. We tried to tell him that thickening is more of a quick fix, and shouldn't be a habit, proper ink laydown is alway better, and PFP if you must.
Steve
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Thickener is a type of filler sort of. Too much will cause the cure issue as you've seen. Don't know why the inks need to be thickened. Sounds like a bandaid for some other problem
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ink will crack over time, it just does. the main ingredient in washing detergent is sodium and it will dry plastics out. It's much later down the road, but eventually white ink will crack.
I am so glad you posted this. Very interesting to know it is not always us not curing enough.
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ink will crack over time, it just does. the main ingredient in washing detergent is sodium and it will dry plastics out. It's much later down the road, but eventually white ink will crack.
I am so glad you posted this. Very interesting to know it is not always us not curing enough.
When he says over time, he means over time.
When you see a client sitting across from you in a shirt you printed. If it is faded and/or cracked, it better have been worn and laundered weekly if it's much less than a year old.
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ink will crack over time, it just does. the main ingredient in washing detergent is sodium and it will dry plastics out. It's much later down the road, but eventually white ink will crack.
I am so glad you posted this. Very interesting to know it is not always us not curing enough.
Ha! Frog, you beat me to it. I was going to say the same thing. (over a long period of time). Some prints washed every other week can last 2-3 years and not crack. each design will have different results and also as Tony pointed out, each ink type will have different results.
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Some of my 50/50 white inks on hoodies have cracked within a year or so , but never have that issue with standard white inks. I have only noticed it on the ones I print for myself.
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That would be 99% of the printed apparel that Walmart sells or is produced in China. I once had a customer try to argue my "our prints will not fade or crack" statement on my website saying that cracking and washed away parts of designs will happen no matter what over time, as if it is to be expected.
We wish this were the case but the stuff from china is better than you think, it won't crack when cured right as it's rubber based!
Thanks to the EPA and other agencies who take the 'good stuff' from our inks and leave us with the crap we have today. I'm sorry but when you compare the ink we used 20 yrs ago to the stuff we have today.. it's friggen junk!!
Europe and Asia are smoking us on ink quality.
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White ink can be a trap sometimes - so can the shirts.
We had a 55 gallon drum of "A new white" from a trusted vendor that did this. It wasn't one of those - "cotton white only" - whites. We had heat guns testing the white all the way thru the one color, white, print. We have gas dryers. Middle of the day, straight thru run, front and back, same logo. We tested the temp at 360, packed the shirts up, shipped them, and got the phone call.
Shirts were royal blue and red Guildans, 100% cotton - 300 pieces (150 red-150 royal).
The ink washed off the red shirts only.
Sometimes it is not JUST the ink......
(We replaced the shirts and gave the drum back to the vendor)
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As you know, different color shirts can absorb or reflect heat differently, (though red and royal shouldn't be that different), but for whatever reason, the red shirts could have had more moisture in them as well. Who knows? But I also understand that unless this ink had some other fantastic redeeming quality, why take a chance?
Lotsa' gremlins helping Mr. Murphy in this industry.
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I have a guy that does embroidery here in town and he has two almost identical computers that he uses for digitizing.
He rotates them through my shop quarterly because they are ALWAYS messing up on him. Granted it's always something simple but that just goes to show you... some gremlins for sure! He is a VERY clean and organized guy and his shop is as well so I know it's not him.
I'm building him a 6 core, 8 gig monster now... 60gig Solid State OS drive and two 750gigs in a raid 1 for the data storage. The system was meant for my wife but he's done with this and wanted the same system after I told him about it and priced it out for him. So he is taking hers (we were still building it) and I'm ordering new parts for her. :)
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So, stupid question -what temp do you guys shoot for with plastisol? We try to hit around 360, maybe a little more depending on the ink deposit, a little less if it's fleece and a poly ink, maybe around 320. . .the only time -and most recent- I had something like this happen, it was with a particular white ink that shale remain nameless - it washed out of EVERYTHING i put it on. . .after I blew through about 5 gallons. . .and about 2k worth of replacements. . .
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So, stupid question -what temp do you guys shoot for with plastisol? We try to hit around 360, maybe a little more depending on the ink deposit, a little less if it's fleece and a poly ink, maybe around 320. . .the only time -and most recent- I had something like this happen, it was with a particular white ink that shale remain nameless - it washed out of EVERYTHING i put it on. . .after I blew through about 5 gallons. . .and about 2k worth of replacements. . .
Why not name the ink and the series to save your fellow printers the grief? If the manufacture reads your post maybe they'll create a better product? Are there bullies in the industries that's going to show up with baseball bats? I wasn't afraid to tell Vastex their v1000 was a piece of crap nor was I afraid to warn others not to buy one. Clue us in man! ;)
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So, stupid question -what temp do you guys shoot for with plastisol? We try to hit around 360, maybe a little more depending on the ink deposit, a little less if it's fleece and a poly ink, maybe around 320. . .the only time -and most recent- I had something like this happen, it was with a particular white ink that shale remain nameless - it washed out of EVERYTHING i put it on. . .after I blew through about 5 gallons. . .and about 2k worth of replacements. . .
Why not name the ink and the series to save your fellow printers the grief? If the manufacture reads your post maybe they'll create a better product? Are there bullies in the industries that's going to show up with baseball bats? I wasn't afraid to tell Vastex their v1000 was a piece of crap nor was I afraid to warn others not to buy one. Clue us in man! ;)
I don't want the thread to go way astray, but you were out of line on the V-1000 rant. You bought their entry level press rather than than their industrial quality model back when you were still pretty green and didn't know.
Once again, you didn't take our advice, and bought cheap new instead of taking advantage of depreciation on a higher quality used. (or waiting until you could afford better quality new)
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I think your missing my point...
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No, I understood your point, but am not going to sit idly by when you still spread information that I think is false with your example.
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No, I understood your point, but am not going to sit idly by when you still spread information that I think is false with your example.
Fair enough, but I still stand by my claim.I had hands on experience with my example and wouldnt hesitate warning another screen printing bro if the said press was mentioned. Luckily I've been flying the RJenning's skys now ;D
I guess we'll just have to hope to never end up with the same ink that Ron or Homer have come across.
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Although I suppose there is always a chance that there is a bad batch of ink, I will say that usually, curing problems can be tied to something else.
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Frog, I was thinking the same thing about the rant. People are entitled to opinions but also know, that if we put it out there, others may know more about he situation and may provide a rebuttal. If we happen to be on the arrogant side at the we time, (someone) might put us in our place. It happens. Brush it off and move on as endless has done. We all may need to take one just as much as you give one. With that said,
No matter the ink, the machine, the company. In business, crap happens. We all have experienced making a mistake. Sometimes out customers experience the results. We've seen is posted here by our brave fellow members posting about there pfho pawes (mistakes). Just because a company has had a miss hap or supplied you with a crap batch, doesn't mean that "the company' is bad. Don't throw out the baby with the wash.
Any ink manufacturing rep will tell you that the company they work for has on one or more occasions shipped out a bad batch (for one reason or another). I've used ICC, Union, Wilflex, Rutland, Plastomeric, and a few others I've forgotten. I'll bet that each one of them has shipped out a bad batch at one time. Same for the shirt company's. Who hasn't got a oil stain on a batch of shirts?
Same with press manufacturer's, printers, and artist.
Just say'n.
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I'm not saying, it doesn't matter. I'm sure I did something wrong too. . .back to the question. . .
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Kind of funny, I bought a 5 gallon of ink that was sitting around my local screen supplier with "bad ink" written on top. I made an offer , picked it up for the cost of a quart and it's been printing just fine... shrugged it off as the user must have been doing something wrong. Score!
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Kind of funny, I bought a 5 gallon of ink that was sitting around my local screen supplier with "bad ink" written on top. I made an offer , picked it up for the cost of a quart and it's been printing just fine... shrugged it off as the user must have been doing something wrong. Score!
That might have been Homer's bucket!
J/K he said he went through it all... just making a point. :)
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Funny thing is, other people on the boards do use that ink and like it. I use it here. It's good, it's just one of the inks in my arsenal.
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Kind of funny, I bought a 5 gallon of ink that was sitting around my local screen supplier with "bad ink" written on top. I made an offer , picked it up for the cost of a quart and it's been printing just fine... shrugged it off as the user must have been doing something wrong. Score!
Imagine that... Happens with equipment also...
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You never hear the black ink was bad. The black ink cracked. The black washed out. Why do we have so many whites on the market. Can't each company just make one white and not have 4 or 5 of them.
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You never hear the black ink was bad. The black ink cracked. The black washed out. Why do we have so many whites on the market. Can't each company just make one white and not have 4 or 5 of them.
Substrate
Pigment load
Weave
Shear
Viscosity
The short list above could constitute five inks... and that is only a short list, super-glue (cyanoacrylate) is not the only adhesive for many similar reasons.
There is never one single perfect universal answer...
If there were only one ink - why bother to have more than one ink company?
And yes there can be other colors outside of white that have problems, including black, but the pigment load of white ink by itself is a contributing factor.