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screen printing => General Screen Printing => Topic started by: Gilligan on September 29, 2011, 07:06:57 PM
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Here is a TERRIBLE sketch of my building. It's certainly not empty but I can move stuff around if need be.
It's 30'x30' insulated and air conditioned.
The "gray" area is just to note where I have a 10' ceiling (loftish)... the rest is open all the way through the rafters. Walls are 10' high.
Red spots along walls are outlets... granted I could run new ones.
I have an Antec Legend 6/4 (8' footprint) and a Chaparral 12' x 30" dryer (24" belt). I have an Antec auto base flash so it swings over the platen. A second flash (backup?). Washout booth is 48" wide by 42" deep (rough estimate... I'm putting it on wheels). I don't REALLY have plumbing in the building but I do have water coming in and capped off (spigot on outside) on the corner where the doors are.
No exposure unit yet... but it will be a make shiv setup that will take up about 3'x3'.
I'm probably leaving some stuff out but lets start here. :)
How would you guys lay this out?
(obviously this is not to scale) :)
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Blanks in through the rollup to count in/staging hit the press make a u turn back through the drier towards the door/shipping.
On the other side of your press put your washout/screen/ink areas. Separate your dirty/clean with your press - most important.
You don't want ink buckets anywhere near incoming garments. At least I don't, freaks me out.
In the past I've liked to have the dryer against a wall to save space but loading a 72" belt from the side ain't a happenin'.
Also don't forget about things like which way the dryer feeds and what side the controls are on. I fought
the hell out of a Maxi-Cure on that issue.
900 sqft is a good sized space for manual production, you should have plenty of room to work comfortably.
Start planning for an auto sooner rather than later. And congratulations!
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Well, it does double as storage as well as sand blasting and several other projects. Right now it has my bro-in-law's junk in there so I have about 75% of the area full... but his stuff will come out freeing up at least 40%.. from there I just have to organize it like I want... priority will be printing first though.
My dryer is pretty slick... control panel swivels and is in the center it also has controls to reverse the belt and in-feed and out-feed are the same length. Only thing to watch for with it is the height adjustment crank is only on one side... but hell that's probably reversible too! ;)
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Not that I could afford the time really, but I stayed up long enough to mess with this. I was interested to see how this would pan out. Not bad. I'm curious to see what others would do. I'm sure its missing some things but space is an issue fort he best options. I could make some of the back rooms slightly thinner.
I have the editable file done in Illustator.
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Wow!! Talk about above and beyond!!!
That is impressive!!
Thanks a TON!
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I like that set up!!!
Frank
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Even the press looks like a real Legend press and conveyor is red.
WOW
Nice one here "Dane"
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Dan's layout is good! I would tweak it just a little. . .
washed out screens will also benefit from the dry air in the coating room, so combine those to quickly dry your screens. Merging the two spaces will give you more usable room as overall less space is dedicated to walking areas.
You will need more ink storage and work surfaces than what Dan allocated. Part of it will get used by the tools needed to do the maintenance. Ink supplies just get bigger and bigger. I started with one shelf and have four now.
Another nice touch would be a rack to place the screens as you wash them so you do not have to walk back and forth. Also some room for the screens that need to be reclaimed. A rack next to the washout sink could accommodate both if you can keep ink of the bottom of the frames.
Did not mentioned a work desk, so since there is some room now, you can have one in the corner where it si dry and clean.
pierre
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Why no one did not put exposure unit in the dark room? Just separate drying room from the dark room (wall with the door).
Would it be better not to take pre-exposed screens into the lit area before they are exposed?
Just wandering :)
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Whenever possible I put wheels on everything. The more modular the better. Racks shelves and carts......need to suck up that vertical space.
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Sorry, Dan had exposure right after coating room.
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I like the changes. I do disagree though on one area. It's been my experience in various shops that we have two separate areas of the coating room and the washed out screens waiting drying to be coated.
This is the best case scenario. Many people fix this by including a drying cabinet inside your coating room so that wet screens do not affect the drying emulsion. In a perfect world, you would also have a moisture content reader and a hygrometer mounted on the wall in the room also to know that you are staying within a specif range.
You can save space and combine but the most efficient way is to have two areas. This is because the wet screens freshly washed will slow down production of drying time by adding excessive or additional moisture in the air. Again tho, if you are tryi g to save space. You could do how Pierre described but keep in mind, the faster you need those screens, the more accurate your drying process needs to be.
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I like the changes. I do disagree though on one area. It's been my experience in various shops that we have two separate areas of the coating room and the washed out screens waiting drying to be coated.
This is the best case scenario. Many people fix this by including a drying cabinet inside your coating room so that wet screens do not affect the drying emulsion. In a perfect world, you would also have a moisture conten reader in the room also to lnow that you are staying within a specif range.
You can save space and combine but the most efficient way is to have two areas. This is because the wet screens freshly washed will slow down production of drying time by adding excessive or additional moisture in the air. Again tho, if you are tryi g to save space. You could do how Pierre described but keep in mind, the faster you need those screens, the more accurate your drying process needs to be.
yes, in the perfect world where there is enough space to have the separated, it is better. All your points are vaild, we agree! Unfortunately, in a limited space, it MIGHT make sense to combine them. I know I would.
As far as the exposure unit going inside the dark room, it only works if it is completely enclosed. Many units are not and I just did not want to assume that as an option. If this is the case, the dark room can be made even bigger and additional space savings can be achieved!
in the, not all of this is feasible and Gilligan will use snippets of the information we provide that actually work in his scenario. Make sure you keep us posted and let us know how you lay it out!
pierre
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Actuall I have a ginormous free standing exposure unit and a separate 8k exposure right in the darkroom where screens are coated and dryed and stored. Temperature humidity and dust controlled. So it can be done.
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Actuall I have a ginormous free standing exposure unit and a separate 8k exposure right in the darkroom where screens are coated and dryed and stored. Temperature humidity and dust controlled. So it can be done.
;D
I stand corrected!!!
pierre
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Pierre I'll call shortly w/those #s
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As much as I've tried to layout my shops once you start moving things in something never pans out the way I wanted it to. I have to take in consideration of where the plumbing is and the 220 lines ,if there are no lines yet the further away the dryer is from the panel box the more expensive installing lines will be. I always try to have the dryer next to a window. Then there is the office area which I would want near the front entrance so customers are not walking through your shops and near ink buckets. Sample display area... Just a thought...
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Thanks for all the suggestions and layouts (keep them coming!)... I will be taking snippets here and there... but this shows me how a work flow SHOULD go in an ideal world. My world, like everybody's, is far from ideal so I will make stuff happen. But at least I know the "rules" so when I break them I will know why. (I know they aren't "rules" but it's an old adage that is very well served in many walks of life.
Endless, right now this is PURE production... no customers here. My store front and my production space are a couple of miles away. Again, not an ideal world but for now. Hell, my production shop has more room than my computer store/t-shirt store COMBINED! :) (they share 800 sqft). It's not ideal, but the rent is CHEAP and the location is AWESOME for drive by traffic!
BTW, my exposure unit will likely NOT be enclosed at all as I will be using it to cure UV glue on glass products on a grand scale... we just got an order for 200. This area will have dual purpose. Then it goes to the sandblasting are from there... see, very much less than ideal.
Also... almost no plumbing, I'll be pumping my waste out, but I don't mind poking holes in the wall for such a thing if NEED be.
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Thanks for all the suggestions and layouts (keep them coming!)... I will be taking snippets here and there... but this shows me how a work flow SHOULD go in an ideal world. My world, like everybody's, is far from ideal so I will make stuff happen. But at least I know the "rules" so when I break them I will know why. (I know they aren't "rules" but it's an old adage that is very well served in many walks of life.
Endless, right now this is PURE production... no customers here. My store front and my production space are a couple of miles away. Again, not an ideal world but for now. Hell, my production shop has more room than my computer store/t-shirt store COMBINED! :) (they share 800 sqft). It's not ideal, but the rent is CHEAP and the location is AWESOME for drive by traffic!
BTW, my exposure unit will likely NOT be enclosed at all as I will be using it to cure UV glue on glass products on a grand scale... we just got an order for 200. This area will have dual purpose. Then it goes to the sandblasting are from there... see, very much less than ideal.
Also... almost no plumbing, I'll be pumping my waste out, but I don't mind poking holes in the wall for such a thing if NEED be.
I've given great thought to opening up a tiny store front as a show room but couldnt find a spot that I could rent month to month to test out the waters. How's that working out so far? How do you divide up your time? My shop is sort of in the ghetto (people get shot in my area, no joke) in a building that's always locked on the 3rd floor so needless to say I dont get drop in visits, by appointment only.
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Honestly I haven't done it quite yet. I have two doors on the front of the building so.. We have the counters set up and the wife put the logo with sticker vinyl on the door but we have to order some signage for the building and we are going to just put a big curtain separating out the two sides.
I'll just pop back and forth as needed... we don't deal with customers very often in the computer side. Just drop off and pick up, but of course like anything they all come at once and I'm sure that is how it will be with BOTH shops open. :)
Still got a little cleaning up to do at the store and a LOT of cleaning up to do at the shop. My bro-in-law and moms-in-law are SUPPOSED to get in there this week and get his "shtuff" out of there which will free up a LOT of space and I can get arranging things.
I just cut the "tote" for the washout booth last night, managed to slam the cut out piece right on a nerve of my big toe last night (right next to the toe I broke last Saturday)... it was AMAZING how long that hurt for and how MUCH it hurt. An hour later I was still writhing in pain... honestly it was probably HALF as bad as when I had a kidney stone recently. It just would NOT let up. Amazing really. Finally soaking it in hot water with Epson Salt seemed to provide some relief (and 800mg of ibuprofen, and I hate taking meds).
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I understand some can make adjustments to a room to make it work in one room.
Those who can do that are also the ones who purchase all the control tools to keep an eye on the variables like temperature and humidity control devices. Were talking hygrometer, not only a dehumidifier. Those are needed also, but to do what Tony has done, you need all your variables controlled. Still, even with that, having your exposure unit in the same room as your coated/ stored screens is asking for problems in my opinion. If the mere color difference between a white mesh and a yellow mesh can make a difference in exposure results, so can premature exposure.
At Disney, Russell Athletics and Ohio Pyle Prints, we had a separate room for the exposure unit. We did have separate rooms for washed/reclaimed screens and a room for coated screens.
The "print world rules of order" say do not combine your light source in
with your light sensitive drying emulsion. Even self contained devices can leak light. How much is enough to affect a correct exposure? Don't know. I'm just reading from my imaginary book of what not to do. LOL.
Some might say I am over thinking it or taking it too literally. Probably so.
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You probably are as I've seen some fairly
careless carefree handling of screens with no ill results.
THAT being said... putting a "light source" in your "dark room" does seem counter productive so it is no wonder one would immediately say... that's a no no. :)
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Why no one did not put exposure unit in the dark room? Just separate drying room from the dark room (wall with the door).
Would it be better not to take pre-exposed screens into the lit area before they are exposed?
Just wandering :)
I guess I wrote it incorrectly.
I did not mean directly in the drying room. I was thinking more of two rooms next to each other and before washout booth, like Dan had it set up (I mentioned that later too). I just do not like taking the dried screens out on open under shop lights for them to be exposed. Dual cure might be OK, pure-photo might be affected a bit.
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Pure photo (at least I think that is what Chroma Blue is)... my buddy has his screens behind a light curtain (which isn't always pulled close or is half heartedly pulled) under his exposure table. The fluorescents are on in there they are on outside that room and they often forget to close the door. They carry them around under the lights. And they have THIN 1:1 coating on them.
Never seen them have any issues unless they expose incorrectly or the vacuum lid f's up.
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My cabinet for holding coated screens has quite a bit of light coming through.. As long as they arent in there for more than a couple days, you should be good. I don't ever have a problem with it. And I transfer coated screens to the exp unit in a well lit area. Works fine.
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We have a pretty secure dark room as far as UV light is concerned, but some of our screens that have been sitting in the dark room for several months are harder to washout due to a little bit of pre-exposure. That is to be expected I guess, since every time we open the door there has to be light coming in, although it's not strong UV light. We have our exposure unit a few steps outside the dark room so the screens are exposed to the shop lighting for a few seconds before going onto the exposure unit.
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same here, I have to walk about 40ft to the exposure unit, no problems with it. We do turn of some of the lights when we are burning the screens though, but the daylight is coming in pretty strong.
pierre
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And your daylight is worse than the shop lights (depending on type of shop lights obviously).
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same here, I have to walk about 40ft to the exposure unit, no problems with it. We do turn of some of the lights when we are burning the screens though, but the daylight is coming in pretty strong.
pierre
I forgot that you have to take them all the way to the back to expose.
Yeah, I guess it does not matter that much.
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It's an incorrect statement to say that it's ok or does not matter that much or does not affect it. It does. To what degree is another question and will br different for different shops.
Those who use all various sizes of pre coated stock piles of screens quickly or daily, will not see a huge impact on quality for just a little exposure. Like the sun and skin cancer, the longer you stay in it the more you are affected. Some people don't believe that tho, since they don't see anything wrong yet and are in the sun all the time.
Like art jobs, each are different. Lower mesh for example have a thicker layer and can withstand more or longer pre exposure. Higher mesh tend to get pre exposed easier.
If anyone has the balls, (double dog dare ya) they can do a test for us. Much like doing a manual exposure test. You could print out a sheet if film with nothing but a 5% fill of halftone across the whole image. Print it out at 55lpi and in thr dark room, lay it over a nice 300 mesh. Draw on the screen with a marker using a ruler to mark off a section every 1". Do this across the film for a total of 16" sections. This should be a 8 min pre exposure test. Pull the trash bag back exposing the first section in regular shop light. Expose each section for 30 seconds using a timer. Once you reach the end, cover the screen completely and go expose it with your regular time and wash it out.
This is a good myth buster so I hope someone takes me up on it. I am pretty sure that 5% will not wash out on one or more of those sections.
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Never seen them have any issues unless they expose incorrectly or the vacuum lid f's up.
People say that all the time. What they forget is that early on in the learning process, we pick up bad habits or work stooges. (while having issues in any area) you make adjustments along the way. As long as the end result is good, you think you are doing great but you might have compensated somewhere to make things right and not even realize it. It's a normal part of your day and in fact, "it's how we've always done it". Ever heard that one?
It's been said here that Pierre walks about 40' to his exposure unit with screens out in the open. While he is an outstanding award winning printer and gets great result, I'll tell him he's making a mistake by doing that. As a side note, on his more critical stuff, he puts it in a black trash bag.
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You may have been stating that for posterity's sake, but I certainly understand. I in NO way think a LOT of the things they do are correct or even good enough for me.
They have a fluorescent exposure unit... they even have an older unit that he would essentially give me... but I'd rather build a single point source. He doesn't understand how he could get better results but he's been reading and thinking about a single source exposure unit.
It works and they make plenty of money... but for VERY little more invested they could be doing better work... even if it's not really noticeable... like you were saying... all those small bits add up and the "flaws" compile up and all it takes is a little slip somewhere for a "crack" to show.
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Never seen them have any issues unless they expose incorrectly or the vacuum lid f's up.
People say that all the time. What they forget is that early on in the learning process, we pick up bad habits or work stooges. (while having issues in any area) you make adjustments along the way. As long as the end result is good, you think you are doing great but you might have compensated somewhere to make things right and not even realize it. It's a normal part of your day and in fact, "it's how we've always done it". Ever heard that one?
It's been said here that Pierre walks about 40' to his exposure unit with screens out in the open. While he is an outstanding award winning printer and gets great result, I'll tell him he's making a mistake by doing that. As a side note, on his more critical stuff, he puts it in a black trash bag.
I think the point here is that you have to know what your limitations are, what is the right way to do something (I think JSheridan knows something about that!) and how close you can get to it. So I have to walk through some light and I realize there is a price to pay. I chose to pay that piper for the everyday work. But when it comes to the super high end stuff, where every dot counts, there is no compromise and the screens are bagged, or in some cases double bagged to the exposure unit (end even the incandescent bulbs are turned off!). From what I can tell, the walk over in subdued lights is costing me 2-5/1000th of an inch. For 99.9% of the work that is not an issue.
So to recap, compromises are OK as long as that is all they are. Once they become standards, we are heading down the wrong path . . .
pierre
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Here is my layout when I get my auto next weekend. At least I hope the layout works out ok. The shop is only 20x40. Its gonna be super tight. Any suggestions on this one? This may help Gilligan as well. I do not have a dedicated dark room and dont think I will invest in one.
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How do you plan on "protecting" your unexposed screens? Covering the rack? I'm thinking about the same. But I do have a chest freezer that stopped working... I might use it and just prop it up a bit to let the air circulate. I'll drape something around it to block that light but keep the air flowing.
Nothing set in stone there... will see how it all goes.
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I have the 2 screen racks basically draped in a black king size flat bed sheet. I have uv blocking sleeves on the lights and keep the roll up door down when exposing screens and I never have any trouble.
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washed out screens will also benefit from the dry air in the coating room, so combine those to quickly dry your screens. Merging the two spaces will give you more usable room as overall less space is dedicated to walking areas.
This is an early on mistake most printers make because they don't know better. You coat your screens in the evening and head home. Those screens dry all night and have zero moisture content as you left your dehumidifier on 24/7. Now you burn and washout a screen and place that soaking wet screen back into your dry room. That very instant your dry screens start to re-absorb ANY moisture in the air. Do this 3-4 more times and all of a sudden your tiny dark room is back up to 60% humidity and your screens are sticky.
If you can stand in your 'exposure' room screen cabinet and shut out the lights and see daylight or light coming in, you need to block it out to total darkness. This is the only true way to ensure you're never introducing outside light that can prematurely expose a screen. If we can fully expose a screen in the sun in 1 minute or less, then how is it OK when that light creeps into the dark room 24/7.
Do it right with a wet and dry room.
The dry side is your coating and storage room. Humidity and air temp is controlled here with an AC/HEAT unit and dehumidifier. Your floors and walls are white and you're using the clear UV blocking light sleeves for your well lit room.
Most self-contained exposures now can be placed in this room as well. Shut off the light, turn on the exposure and see where the light scatter goes, keep your screens out of this area or use black tape and tape the glass edges.
Your wet room is reclaim and washout, wet screens go into a drying cabinet that has warm air flow with no direct fan blowing on cleaned screens, washed out image screens can go under a fan or drying box.
As Dan has mentioned, just because "that's the way we've always done it and it works for me" doesn't mean that's the way it's supposed to work.
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Short of building a room... what is the best way to keep screens dry when I'll be pressure washing (reclaiming) in the same 900 square feet?
I do have a dehumidifier and central air conditioning in that room... BUT I am in south Louisiana... it's HUMID... ALWAYS.
I could drop visqueen around an area fairly easily as I have some... it's also black... would that be "enough" to shield out the humidity?
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Short of building a room... what is the best way to keep screens dry when I'll be pressure washing (reclaiming) in the same 900 square feet?
I do have a dehumidifier and central air conditioning in that room... BUT I am in south Louisiana... it's HUMID... ALWAYS.
I could drop visqueen around an area fairly easily as I have some... it's also black... would that be "enough" to shield out the humidity?
Good question, when my washout room was inside my shop (it's now down the hall in a restroom, yeah that has it's pitfalls...) my entire shop would be muggy not to mention stink of franmar.
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Not that I could afford the time really, but I stayed up long enough to mess with this. I was interested to see how this would pan out. Not bad. I'm curious to see what others would do. I'm sure its missing some things but space is an issue fort he best options. I could make some of the back rooms slightly thinner.
I have the editable file done in Illustator.
This is really nice but IMHO the product has to "snake" through the room too much, and the rooms that need to be built are in the area of the room where the ceilings are highest, which would mean having to put plywood roofs on em...
I would build out the screen rooms underneath the loft area, as you already have a built in ceiling for these rooms. Simple wall construction, a door or two and you're done. Make sure these rooms have a de-humidifier.
Where the rooms are laid out in the sketch, make this all rack shelving for staging goods.
Production can come in the big door, head east, make a big u-turn through the room, then back out the door.
Oh and put everything except the dryer and press on wheels. Makes the space very flexible and easy to keep clean.
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This is an early on mistake most printers make because they don't know better. You coat your screens in the evening and head home. Those screens dry all night and have zero moisture content as you left your dehumidifier on 24/7. Now you burn and washout a screen and place that soaking wet screen back into your dry room. That very instant your dry screens start to re-absorb ANY moisture in the air. Do this 3-4 more times and all of a sudden your tiny dark room is back up to 60% humidity and your screens are sticky.
3 seasons of the year here, my screens go right into the bed of my pickup to dry. It's a silver Ranger - so the screens dry very quickly in the sun and get some post exposure.
In the winter/rainy months, they go to a staging area near the dryer or flash unit with a small fan on em.
The screen room is ONLY for coated screens, or screens just de-greased, and I try not to have them in there at the same time. Keeps the de-humidifier from working too hard.
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Well, I feel accomplished... Ok, just a little and I really didn't do much.
Got my bro-in-law out of my shop (half way, rest going tomorrow) and I built a squeegee rack... it ain't really pretty but it's perfect for what it is (I free handed the router and my fine motor skills suck).
Oh, and I rerouted the feed on my Sand Blasting cabinet... seems like it will help out a lot. (yeah, that's not really screen printing related but the work we do with it runs through the same company I do the screen printing through.
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Here is a pic... it's is just temporarily quick clamped to a shelf to check it out and show the wife.
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Very off topic but to add to cool stuff that has happened to me.
I got invited and accepted to be a youtube "partner" channel. So now I make money off any videos I put up there.
Crazy because I don't have much on there and not many subscribers... just one semi-popular video.
Either way it works as the wife plans on doing some children stuff since most of the stuff that is very popular is total rubbish.
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I agree with tonypep. I put as much of my stuff on wheels as i could, as that allowed me to pull my car in the shop If I wanted to work on it.
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Very off topic but to add to cool stuff that has happened to me.
I got invited and accepted to be a youtube "partner" channel. So now I make money off any videos I put up there.
Crazy because I don't have much on there and not many subscribers... just one semi-popular video.
Either way it works as the wife plans on doing some children stuff since most of the stuff that is very popular is total rubbish.
Gilligan,
I wouldn't get too excited about making money as a Youtube Partner. I am one and I get about 150 to 300 hits a day. I have about 10 videos and in a month I made less then a $1. You really have to have alot of views and hits to make money. I never really tried to hard. I took all the ads down now because its not why I have the videos there.
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Nah... I know... my bro-in-laws are partners and they are also the co-creators and star of "The Retarded Policeman" series.
That series was hugely popular and is in litigation right now because it has made over $200k and their partner lied about it and wasn't paying them jack. He will lose the case and have to own up to the money they are owe... but that is neither here nor there.
Other than that series they haven't made much but they also haven't pushed and don't have views into the millions like the RP series did (part of the lawsuit deals with some cross promotion of channels).
Hey, if the wife puts up some children's vids and it brings us $30 bucks a month well that is $30 bucks we didn't have for doing absolutely nothing (after making the vids)... we won't be spending a dime and it will be fun for her to make.
Either way it's cool that it came unsolicited.