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screen printing => Newbie => Topic started by: Appstro on November 04, 2015, 07:53:22 AM
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I have tried printing 2 to 4 color jobs where the ink does not touch. The first 10 shirts look fine but as I go around doing more and more shirts the prints start to loose their sharpness and the ink seems to start building on the other screens. Eventually the prints look smudged or bleeding looking. WOW would make the job go faster, but it looks like shizzang. What am I doing wrong? Printing on white or light shirts, regular placistol inks (not WOW inks, Is there that much difference?), offset is about 3/16 of an inch.
Thanks for your replies!
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so many variables don't know where to start... I assume you're trying this on your new manual, so I assume the press holding solid registration
1. what screen mesh counts? -- if you're using too low of a mesh (200 or below) you'll be putting down too much ink and it'll start to build up on the bottom of the screens.
2. how's your screen tension? -- too low and the screen will move around.
3. how's your printing technique? (how consistent is your printing and flooding? are you hard flooding or soft flooding? are you needing to make multiple passes to clear the screen? -- too much pressure on your print stroke?
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Yikes, uh 110 screens...
No idea about tension but the screens are newer.
Technique - I am still finding my ....technique :) I try to consistently flood the same and use the same angle push stroke and pressure, but it's not easy! :)
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So I am going to respond to your other thread about flashing and loading as well but here is a quick "answer" about wet on wet on the manual: don't do it unless necessary. The only time it is necessary is if you are doing cmyk or Sim process and the on shirt blending is crucial to the design. There is absolutely no reason to do it for spot color designs.
110 is way too low not only for wow printing but for anything but a one hit white or special effect ink honeatly. I have and use 110s in my shop, but only for white ink on mid tone shirts with small coverage that I can one hit (like a sponsor back with small logos and text for example) or for transfer printing. Everything else goes on higher mesh. I usually underage with anything from a 135 to a 180 depending on the art and shirt color, and top colors are on a minimum of 225 and up to 280.
You are also printing manually and have perfect print and flood strokes throughout a run is basically impossible. You will get tired or lose focus on occasion. Those fluctuations will cause the blur from the buildup on the backs of your screens.
I'll try to post a video as a response to your other thread, but again you shouldn't really be printing wet on wet anyway on your manual.
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Excellent advice sir! I was leaning toward 160 mesh as a standard screen. Is that good? Also I have to reduce my IC legacy white ALOT to even get a decent print. I have fought this white ink from the beginning.
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Honestly, there is no such thing as one standard screen. I will say that for manual printing look into getting Murakami S mesh statics ASAP! They are literally the best upgrade I have made that isn't a major piece of equipment. I use 135S/150S/180S for underbases and simple spot color work on light fabrics and for discharge work. The mesh count will depend on the fabric, the ink color, the artwork, etc. There is no "right" answer here, just what works best for you. I may use 135S to underbase on a comfort color shirt or a triblend because I need extra ink to mat down fibers, but I may use 180S on a poly shirt since they print so nicely. Sometimes I may even use 225S if the art needs a nice tonal underbase with lots of halftones and mat down isn't an issue.
Any time I am printing a color over a base, I opt for as high a mesh as makes sense. lots of halftones and a color that doesnt need extra ink for opacity? 280 is my go to mesh. If it is a thinner ink I might opt for 225S. Some flo colors I may even jump down to a 180S.
I literally only use my 110 mesh for some special effect inks (when my lower meshes aren't available, and I only have a handful of 60 and 86 mesh screens), or one hit whites usually only if I just don't have any 135S available in a pinch. It just doesn't offer any benefits over other mesh in my experience. It is sort of like a beginner workhorse mesh, but once you dial in your process it is kind of just OK for lots of stuff, but not the best for anything.
If you white ink isn't working for you, pick another ink. I use triangle poly excel on almost everything, but use some one stroke whites as well for more specialized stuff. I have tested tons of inks, and many of them print like crap honestly (for me, results will ALWAYS vary in different shops). In texas we deal with tons of crazy weather and some inks just don't act well with all the variable temperatures. I also print on a wide variety of stuff, and wasn't interested in using lots of different whites or modifying the ink all the time. The poly excel is expensive, but it is stretchy, has okay bleed resistance, prints really easily, mats down well, doesnt care how cold it is, etc. I pay more so I don't have to deal with bullshit when it comes to my ink...
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I print manually, and I always print WOW whenever I can. Colors touching does not change this.
I flashed for years, but then learned that with a press that can hold registration, hallfway decent tension (I don't use rollers), and ink that is meant to be used this way, WOW makes the jobs much easier and faster.
On lights, I only use one station.
On runs of 50 or less (my current main bread and butter) I rarely have to stop and wipe. (Bandaids for too much ink build up include spraying screens with silicone spray or even Pam)
Print order can help, with smaller areas going first, lighter colors going first, but this is not a hard and fast rule.
As mentioned, when a screen is too coarse, it not only lays down more ink than needed on the shirt, but on each subsequent screen when printing WOW.
On whites and lights, I generally use 180-230. Printing white ink on dark, usually 160, with an occasional 140 on fleece.
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I don't understand how not flashing would speed anything up. I have my flash at a height where the shirt is flashed as soon as I am rotating the platens, so I am never waiting for anything to flash. I use 4 stations even when printing waterbased (no flash involved) and it is still faster than using a single station and printing all colors on one shirt, then unloading and loading. Even on one color jobs I save a few seconds on a round of 4 shirts by loading and unloading as a group of 4 shirts vs loading printing and unloading an individual shirt. i use the stopwatch on my phone for every job I do and have pretty lengthy logs on how long it takes me to print for every variable I can think of...
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When I started WoW. I could not do it with a 230s. So I had to do it with a 305s.... Once I got better, I moved to 230 thin thread.
I see no need to go coarser... Coarser mesh for me means more ink and more emulsion.....
I don't understand how not flashing would speed anything up.
I was wondering about that at one stage.
For me, it is just savings on electricity.
Today we have a 4-colour job on light blue. We just printed 3 darker shades of blue and the last one(white) on a 150s... No flash.
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I'm not arguing it isn't good for other reasons (electricity savings, on shirt ink mixing for process/sim process, etc), but I have tried and timed every variation I can think of and saw no benefit to not flashing when it came to speed. obviously on an auto it makes a difference because you are limited in how the shirt moves around your press in one cycle vs revolver mode slowing everything down. The only way I can see flashing slowing down manual printing would be if your flash is slower than your print stroke, but with an IR flash at the right height they take the same amount of time.
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I started printing before there were flash units, so all jobs were WOW, even dark shirts. Tight screens no matter what mesh will help a lot. In those days before we became a little more sophisticated, we categorized our meshes into fine (305), medium (140 - 160) and coarse (60). Make sure your tack is still tacky. If the first prints are OK, but get progressively worse, something is moving, and you need to determine which element that is. If your print stroke is hard, and your mesh is not as tight as it could be, then you are actually stretching the mesh during your print stroke, which will vary from print to print (you aren't a machine, your body won't let you do the exact speed and pressure each time) and you start to get messy edges on the stencil, making it look blurry or soft. Lastly, when flooding, don't push too hard, or the excess coming out below will spread out, causing the same problem. Good luck, and don't worry, we all went through this stuff. Nothing teaches like experience.
Steve
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Thanks guys. I think I see a pattern here. It's my mesh. AND I have not done WOW with my new press, just that Silverpress I had. I have a 5 color job coming up that could go a bit faster.
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You've got some very good advice so far, but one thing I will add which I think might have been said already, doing a multicolor print on a manual printing WOW vs flashing each color won't be any faster one way or the other in most cases, even guys with these big ole 12 to 16 color autos still flash multiply times between colors.
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Thank you. If I get a chance today I will post a pic of the design coming soon and see what mesh you guys advise.
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You've got some very good advice so far, but one thing I will add which I think might have been said already, doing a multicolor print on a manual printing WOW vs flashing each color won't be any faster one way or the other in most cases, even guys with these big ole 12 to 16 color autos still flash multiply times between colors.
I will remain in the minority here, in that I'd rather just spin the printheads rather than the tables and the printheads. Different strokes.
Of course, a manual offers me that prerogative, while an auto doesn't.
And of course, as mentioned, less juice used, and on a 100 degree day, I only have to worry about the heat from my belt dryer which vents a lot away.
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I agree with frog, I use a lot of 180 and 230 mesh. 110 was for one hit whites or things I needed a lot of ink. Wet on wet on a manual, yes sir, tight screens and solid registration is the key. I suggest buying some roller frames, once the tension is right you will be amazed at how much easier things become.
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
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Pics of upcoming possible job. This will be going on Alstyle 100% cotton youth and adults. What mesh would you do?
BACK
(http://s15.postimg.org/q19fo78m3/Charlie_Brown_T_shirt_Back_Final.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
FRONT
(http://s30.postimg.org/la98rdchd/Charlie_Brown_T_shirt_Front_Final.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
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Ok let me backtrack here.. WOW all day with that print going on white shirts, but I still stick with taking the same amount of time if you had to flash colors
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I do think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how much better your WOW work is on the Kruzer vs the silver press.
getting some quality 150S and 225S s-mesh screens will help a bunch as well, as you'll be able to print with less pressure which = less mesh stretch while printing.
WOW on white should not be difficult as long as your garments are well stuck to the platens, you aren't putting down too much ink (personally I'd try to use a 225S, but a standard 160 should be just fine too), and that you have somewhat consistent squeegee technique.
but again, the press DOES play a major part, and it'll be night and day from a silver press to the Kruzer.
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Ok let me backtrack here.. WOW all day with that print going on white shirts, but I still stick with taking the same amount of time if you had to flash colors
I'm not quite understanding you here Darryl, no flashing is faster, much less time between colors. He's on a manual press, not an auto.
Steve
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Why would it be less time? With my infrared flash I adjust the height to match my flash time to my print/flood time, which is usually a minimum of 5 seconds per color per shirt. If you are sitting there waiting for your flash you need a new flash or you need to adjust it's height. On a left chest I usually have to raise my flash because of how fast I can print/flood...
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I don't get it . . . as Frog points out, printing multiple colors wet on wet, you can use one station and just rotate the inks. If flashing, you have to rotate both the shirts and ink. How could adding an action be as fast as printing without it???? I would rather work on one station and save the energy and time needed to turn the bottom carousel.
pierre
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Pics of upcoming possible job. This will be going on Alstyle 100% cotton youth and adults. What mesh would you do?
BACK
([url]http://s15.postimg.org/q19fo78m3/Charlie_Brown_T_shirt_Back_Final.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://postimage.org/[/url])
FRONT
([url]http://s30.postimg.org/la98rdchd/Charlie_Brown_T_shirt_Front_Final.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://postimage.org/[/url])
back has some stuff that is too thin to print WOW most likely. We might even have to flash that on the auto to keep everything nice and crisp. Hit yellow, red, blue and flash, then the black will tie everything in nicely. You might have issues with yellow blue transition. If you do, it'll need a flash. If separating in Photoshop, take out a pixel or so from the red ink, that will help keep the lines cleaner.
Front is no problem. Make sure you hit the red first, then blue and finish with black. 110 on white shirt might work, but higher mesh would be better.
pierre
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OK another problem... I just received the shirts. The girls small wont even fit on the pallet of my new Kruzer and I don't have time to buy a youth pallet from M&R... I am left with the choice of either cutting my new pallet(s) or I was thinking maybe I could put the shirt on top of the pallet. Is that possible with 3 colors??? What can I do? I have to deliver these shirts by Friday. :( These people are impossible...ugh.
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don't cut your pallets...
Where are you located? I have borrowed pallets from other shops before and shared mine as well when something needed a different size than "normal". You can possibly have a single pallet overnighted from m&R or action as well, but it will cost a lot more than a 6 pack to borrow from someone near you....
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Depending on the size of the image, it may not even fit on the youth boards! How wide is it?
For my stuff, with a usual adult design, I don't go any smaller that youth medium (for all brands other than Gildan)
With Gildans, all bets are off. Their smalls may fit on an adult board, but unless the customer knows what to expect, they may complain that they run even more than a size bigger than all others.
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I am in Poway,CA. I can "stretch" the shirt over the pallet a bit... The seams on the sides are right on the edge of the pallet. I wonder how bad it would look if I just stretched them a little... Luckily these M&R pallets are low profile. These girls shirts are TINY. I think Action is like $500.00 plus before shipping.
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You will very likely need youth boards eventually (maybe just one in a pinch)
Can you find an M&R one fairly locally?
As for stretching, remember that when you take the shirt off, it will stretch the design in the opposite direction (smaller)
Some images can handle this more than others.
Circles are the worst.
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Depending on the size of the image, it may not even fit on the youth boards! How wide is it?
For my stuff, with a usual adult design, I don't go any smaller that youth medium (for all brands other than Gildan)
With Gildans, all bets are off. Their smalls may fit on an adult board, but unless the customer knows what to expect, they may complain that they run even more than a size bigger than all others.
That's the other issue... I sized the image to 9.5 inches wide hoping to find a size that will work from girls small to adult 2x!!! Now looking at it the girls may wrap around the ribs. I dont even want to make more screens so.... I think I am going to roll with the same size.
Your right about the youth pallets. I just tried to the girls small on the old silverpress 10 inch pallet and it stretches more due to the silverpress hardware on the bottom being bigger.
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I have 16 inch wide and 12 inch wide and have yet to find a shirt that will not fit on the 12 inch wide, even XS women's AA and Bella. Buy just one for now, or seriously call around and ask to borrow one. Shops are usually cool with it as long as you don't come across as a scumbag, give them all your contact info and a date youll return it, and offer them a six pack or something for the favor...
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Just a thought - if you have a heat press...how about printing transfers and using those?
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Thats aa good idea..except I have never done that and I dont have transfer paper.. But it is a good idea.
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depending on how many girl's smalls there are, is it worth another whole set-up?
Don't forget that you can't use the same screens, so the transfers will require a new set.
Perhaps a local DTG'r?
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Thats the irony.... My DTG printer will be going in next week, but they cant wait that long. There are about 30 girls shirts that I need to do. The remaining 50 shirts fit fine.
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This is one of those learning experiences we hear about.
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;D
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And what's cool about forums, if you pay attention, you young'ns sometimes get to learn from other people's mistakes ;D
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So, I cut the M&R pallet to 12 inches wide and rounded the corners.... Just one. I will pull smaller shirts as the press goes around for this pallet. I can order a replacement and have it in a week or so. This will get me through the job. Now I have a 12 inch pallet too. :) The aluminum cut like butter on the ol' band saw.
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Why would it be less time? With my infrared flash I adjust the height to match my flash time to my print/flood time, which is usually a minimum of 5 seconds per color per shirt. If you are sitting there waiting for your flash you need a new flash or you need to adjust it's height. On a left chest I usually have to raise my flash because of how fast I can print/flood...
Just catching up; no flash is no waiting at all, no matter the height ;D. Just go to the next screen and print, much less than 5 seconds, at least here. Unless I'm misinterpreting something...
Steve
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Why would it be less time? With my infrared flash I adjust the height to match my flash time to my print/flood time, which is usually a minimum of 5 seconds per color per shirt. If you are sitting there waiting for your flash you need a new flash or you need to adjust it's height. On a left chest I usually have to raise my flash because of how fast I can print/flood...
Just catching up; no flash is no waiting at all, no matter the height ;D. Just go to the next screen and print, much less than 5 seconds, at least here. Unless I'm misinterpreting something...
Steve
Of course, I agree at least for me to use WOW whenever I can. However, what you are missing is Mimosa and others have it timed perfectly to spin and load while a previous shirt is flashing.
He says that he has timed both methods, so besides the extra heat in the shop and electricity used, we can't argue with their success.
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My perspective may have something to do with printing for 5 years before flashing was invented. We used to put 3 people on a manual with a speed table, moved some product let me tell you. To be considered, when the press is full, it has to be emptied, more time...
Steve
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Man I am loving this new press. On the silverpress I had to increase my off contact due to the shirts blurring and sticking. This Kruzer is 1/16 of an inch and the shirt looks excellent. I am off and running. I am flashing between colors and loading all pallets between sets (am am so slow at loading shirts). I am so grateful to you all for being helpful with your ideas and with sharing your experience. Seriously, it has helped me alot. I am going to try the WOW on the front and see if it works too.
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OK just tried WOW and it looks great. At least one shirt does. I will try 10 and see how it goes...
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3rd shirt and the black is starting to smudge a bit. Must be the 110 screen I used, yeah? I ordered 225's yesterday. I am going to the flash for the rest of this job I think.
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Yeah, like was mentioned back at the beginning iof the thread, 110 is way too low for anything other than opaque inks (and even, for many, too low even for that on T's except for when one wants an especially heavy deposit)
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yes you are correct. OK so I basically was forced to to WOW for the last 30 shirts as they are all TINY. So, I have been trying to keep my squeegee angle the same every time and also lighter pressure and I seem to be wiping the screen less. At any rate.... You guys are ALL right :) It works both ways and it seems like it takes about the same amount of time except I am spinning the colors alot more with WOW and the shirt pallets alot more with flash :)...
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Alright well there's 80, 3 color shirts in what 2.5 hours nice!! lol.....Tomorrow or Friday I will do the backs...
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Man I might be missing something here, 110's for the base 125-140's for non based colors and 160-230's for top colors. All screens are tensioned to 28-30 newtons per mesh specks checked every 2 weeks rotation. Printing whites on the auto i'll run 125 mesh with hardly no buildup on a 1000 pcs run at 70doz an hr. Course we work the ink down also with chino. Our stuff is coming out killer with great hand to. Manual printing unless its a top color everything runs at 125s or lower. 160 for top colors. WOW all day long for better hand feel. Sim prints are a whole different ball game throw away everything I previously stated. lol
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All screens are tensioned to 28-30 newtons per mesh specks checked every 2 weeks rotation.
This.
When the screen doesn't have an opportunity to shift around your smearing problems will be a lot less.
Also another thing comes to mind, since you're definitely stepping on the black... is your black ink a WoW compatible ink? We were using TopScore here and stepping on the black and the build up was SO bad that you literally had to scrape the back of the screens with a putty knife to get the ink build up off after 20 or 30 prints.
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All screens are tensioned to 28-30 newtons per mesh specks checked every 2 weeks rotation.
This.
When the screen doesn't have an opportunity to shift around your smearing problems will be a lot less.
Also another thing comes to mind, since you're definitely stepping on the black... is your black ink a WoW compatible ink? We were using TopScore here and stepping on the black and the build up was SO bad that you literally had to scrape the back of the screens with a putty knife to get the ink build up off after 20 or 30 prints.
Rutland black with chino, 85% of our setups are black first then base so I'm saving a flash position. Have not had to scrap clean the back of screens during runs at all.