TSB
screen printing => General Screen Printing => Topic started by: Frog on November 05, 2015, 07:27:50 PM
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Okay, recently someone posted about a job he had wondering about what would adhere.
This month Printwear touches upon it, but to me, this is a real conundrum.
The printwear article states "To check for a water-repellent finish, pour a small cup of water on the garment. If it beads up and does not soak in after a few minutes, you could have an adhesion issue. Wiping the print area with isopropyl alcohol can help remove some of the coating and allow you to get better adhesion."
Do we really want to "remove some of the coating"? Do our custies and potential wearers-in-the-pouring-rain, want us to "remove some of the coating" of their $80 or more rain parka? How much will be removed? How does one test for an actual quantification of how much water repellency (if any) can be lost?
If I needed to, and was willing to sacrifice one, I guess I'd place the alcohol-treated jacket over a medium colored T, make a bit of a well, and pour a little water in, and see if after an hour there was visible dampness on the shirt.
Of course, I don't even direct print lined parkas like these, so would only be concerned with vinyl, and so far have had good luck without compromising the coating. Easyweed and Easyweed Extra, but I'm afraid that not all water proof coatings are created equal.
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At this point I believe the alcohol does not remove the coating, but removes the oil and fingerprints that may be left on the coating that could interfere with the inks ability to adhere.
On the few garments that it may actually remove the coating, I'd guess it would be on sport wear (think Columbia) with something like Nik Wax that you can re-apply--but if you were to do that as a service with printing, you'd likely want to charge much more than you do to print...
Love to hear from someone who 'really knows' though. ;)
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At this point I believe the alcohol does not remove the coating, but removes the oil and fingerprints that may be left on the coating that could interfere with the inks ability to adhere.
On the few garments that it may actually remove the coating, I'd guess it would be on sport wear (think Columbia) with something like Nik Wax that you can re-apply--but if you were to do that as a service with printing, you'd likely want to charge much more than you do to print...
Love to hear from someone who 'really knows' though. ;)
Well, the quote from Printwear definitely says it removes some of the coating, not fingerprints and their related oils.
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we've had adhesion issues with HTV on water repellant jackets, but printing has always seemed to be ok, at least for the stuff we've seen a year or 2 after we printed it.
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Well, the quote from Printwear definitely says it removes some of the coating, not fingerprints and their related oils.
I said someone who 'really knows'! ;D
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We are preparing some material for it right now.
Just to make sure, I just did a few test just then.
At first it seem it still is water-proof, but after all the alcohol or whatever we are using has been washed off. The water started to drip through.
The photo shows the water is dripping through.
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We are preparing some material for it right now.
Just to make sure, I just did a few test just then.
At first it seem it still is water-proof, but after all the alcohol or whatever we are using has been washed off. The water started to drip through.
The photo shows the water is dripping through.
Are you sure that an untreated jacket of the same type wouldn't do the same?
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Are you sure that an untreated jacket of the same type wouldn't do the same?
Our non-water-proof fabric are too thin to stop the water penetrating the fabric.
But for this project, we could not get our ink to stick onto the material after the scratch test. We later found out the customer requested water-proof fabric....
Come to think about it, what inks do they use to print umbrellas? I would love to know.
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Are you sure that an untreated jacket of the same type wouldn't do the same?
Our non-water-proof fabric are too thin to stop the water penetrating the fabric.
But for this project, we could not get our ink to stick onto the material after the scratch test. We later found out the customer requested water-proof fabric....
Come to think about it, what inks do they use to print umbrellas? I would love to know.
I had actually meant checking another of your "waterproofed" jackets that you had not yet prepped with alcohol for comparison of how much protection was lost.
The umbrellas that I have done were long ago, but were done with a catalyzed ink that was then air dried. Their shape, of course, did not permit a trip down the tunnel of heat to speed things up.
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'did not read the posts, just wanted to let Frog know that his misspelling of repellent is killing me! It's in the title and keeps hanging on the front page as ppl answer. . . ;D
pierre
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I had actually meant checking another of your "waterproofed" jackets that you had not yet prepped with alcohol for comparison of how much protection was lost.
The umbrellas that I have done were long ago, but were done with a catalyzed ink that was then air dried. Their shape, of course, did not permit a trip down the tunnel of heat to speed things up.
Good point, I will get them to cut up some fabric and test it tomorrow.
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'did not read the posts, just wanted to let Frog know that his misspelling of repellent is killing me! It's in the title and keeps hanging on the front page as ppl answer. . . ;D
pierre
You are correct sir!
Between my dictation software, and spell check, they could not determine whether I meant "repellant" the noun, or "repellent" the adjective.
The voice recognition, of course, would probably blame my poor enunciation, and the spell checker gave me the old "how do I know which word you meant if they are both spelled correctly?"
So, it is changed on this reply. I'll change it on the original post (as you could have, as well as on your reply unless you're on a phone) I've edited the last few, but as for the other replies in-between, they may have to remain as-is or your post will look pretty silly, LOL!
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Here is the same fabric that is not scrubbed with chemicals.
I filled it with water, and hung it for 15 minutes. I can't feel any water.
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So, at least on that particular fabric, the alcohol definitely reduces the waterproofing effectiveness.
I think that we do have to point this out to clients.
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On a water repellent jacket I used Heat transfer vinyl and the customer reported that it came off. Next I used alcohol and it did remove the water proofing. Used a catalyst ink and then had to reapply the water proof using a spray. The spray takes 24 hours to dry and gives off quite a smell...not enough ventilation in my shop to do it again.
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We did this all the time with those coaches jackets, we'd rub alcohol on the area that we needed to print (removing some of the waterproofing) and after the printing was done respray with water proof spray, I got this info years ago from Scott Fresener, mine you we only did this with nylon jackets.
darryl
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Okay, recently someone posted about a job he had wondering about what would adhere.
This month Printwear touches upon it, but to me, this is a real conundrum.
The printwear article states "To check for a water-repellent finish, pour a small cup of water on the garment. If it beads up and does not soak in after a few minutes, you could have an adhesion issue. Wiping the print area with isopropyl alcohol can help remove some of the coating and allow you to get better adhesion."
Do we really want to "remove some of the coating"? Do our custies and potential wearers-in-the-pouring-rain, want us to "remove some of the coating" of their $80 or more rain parka? How much will be removed? How does one test for an actual quantification of how much water repellency (if any) can be lost?
If I needed to, and was willing to sacrifice one, I guess I'd place the alcohol-treated jacket over a medium colored T, make a bit of a well, and pour a little water in, and see if after an hour there was visible dampness on the shirt.
Of course, I don't even direct print lined parkas like these, so would only be concerned with vinyl, and so far have had good luck without compromising the coating. Easyweed and Easyweed Extra, but I'm afraid that not all water proof coatings are created equal.
Andy: Nazdar SourceOne did some work earlier this year with a major performance wear brand, on a screen-printing solution for their water-proof garments. This particular brand has some specific requirements and limitations on the inks and chemicals used in decorating their garments. One thing they were adamant was that they would not allow the application of any chemicals to the surface of the fabric that would negatively impact the water resistant properties of the garment, so an alcohol wipe prior to printing was definitely out of the question.
I wasn't directly involved in the final solution but from what I recall the process was to use a hot solvent graphic type ink as a "tie-coat"to bite through the water-proof coating and to serve as an under-base for the other colors. If there's a genuine interest in researching this issue I'll make some inquiries and post some suggestions on the inks and the process to print on these types of garments without damaging their water-proof properties. One concern that I have is that the work that we did with the brand is subject to an NDA so I might need to be somewhat generic in my response.
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Andy: Nazdar SourceOne did some work earlier this year with a major performance wear brand, on a screen-printing solution for their water-proof garments. This particular brand has some specific requirements and limitations on the inks and chemicals used in decorating their garments. One thing they were adamant was that they would not allow the application of any chemicals to the surface of the fabric that would negatively impact the water resistant properties of the garment, so an alcohol wipe prior to printing was definitely out of the question.
I wasn't directly involved in the final solution but from what I recall the process was to use a hot solvent graphic type ink as a "tie-coat"to bite through the water-proof coating and to serve as an under-base for the other colors. If there's a genuine interest in researching this issue I'll make some inquiries and post some suggestions on the inks and the process to print on these types of garments without damaging their water-proof properties. One concern that I have is that the work that we did with the brand is subject to an NDA so I might need to be somewhat generic in my response.
Sounds like these inks may require similar space for drying as umbrellas, or do these inks allow for a little help from a conveyor dryer? Then again, if these inks are proprietary, all may be a moot point, or tease at best.
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Sounds like these inks may require similar space for drying as umbrellas, or do these inks allow for a little help from a conveyor dryer? Then again, if these inks are proprietary, all may be a moot point, or tease at best.
Andy: First up my post was not a tease, and no the specific inks are not proprietary. The challenge that I tried to convey in my earlier post was that Nazdar SourceOne had worked under an NDA with a major client on this type of printing application, and as such I needed to be careful in my communication of a solution.
I'll repeat the offer that I made in my earlier post, that if there's a genuine interest in researching this issue I'll make some inquiries and post some suggestions on the inks and the process to print on these types of garments without damaging their water-proof properties.
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Well Peter, I'm fairly certain that no one here wants you to violate any non-disclosure agreement, and/or possibly anger the Gods (like the Goddess of Victory). I am also fairly certain that any information that makes this particular type of printing more successful would be appreciated and well received.