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screen printing => Ink and Chemicals => Topic started by: ZooCity on December 02, 2015, 06:25:22 PM
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We were re-upping on some Rutland HSA Soft White and I hear it's all gone....and no replacement product is available.
I need a replacement HSA opaque white asap, we're down to our last 4gal here.
When we initially settled on Rutland there were less options available and I've only tested one of the newer options. CCI Pure White, Wilflex Oasis and Green Galaxy all were beat by Rutland Soft White in testing, although CCI's was close in performance, just a touch runny so the opacity suffered a bit.
That leaves Magna, Matsui's new stuff, and Virus no? Also need west coast availability on this.
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We stock all the new Matsui RFU inks here, as well as all their pigments and bases.
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I'm sure Mike will chime in, but I believe he really liked the Virus stuff when he tested it. Not sure if that has become his standard or not though....
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Check out Virus, Screen Printers Resource (s and n cal depending on product) has it.
May be just me, but consistency in terms of opacity/water content has varied a bunch
from batch to batch on just about every type we've tried. One direction is an easy fix, the other
takes some time.
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Did you ask RC Screen to send a sample of the Matsui white?
I believe they have the 301 in stock.
Thankfully I still have about 3 gallons here and we don't use it that often right now.....
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Is Rutland discontinuing the whole HSA line or just a few products? I assume they are just stream lining it
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Hey thanks everyone.
Sean / Jameson - I'll order some Virus from Screen Printer's Resource in the a.m. What Virus White is recommended? We're looking for the opacity of Rutland's if at all possible so need their HO white. I can't figure out their lineup well, Hydra, Hydracryl or Perfetto is the HSA?
I think the rheology changes are natural to packing this ink. Wilflex got it right with their crazy twist lock container for HSAs (well mostly right, the gasket doesn't play well with the ink...) but their Oasis ink just seemed inferior in testing, at least the HO white did. We tend to retard heavily and run on the wet side due to our climate.
Colin- Christine already emailed about the Stretch White, thoughts on that one?
And I'm jealous, we're down to 4gal here as well which is not going to last us through the next few weeks, our HSA runs tend to be on the heftier side.
Brandon- I don't know what the hell they are doing. Word is no other products are being discontinued. Whispers have been that the line is being upgraded but there is no replacement product for Soft White right now. That's not right. They screwed up on this and as immense of a project as switching ink brands would be right now I'm considering it. I find it disrespectful that Rutland chose not to inform their vendors and users well in advance and do not like scrambling for a replacement during one of our busiest seasons.
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We were re-upping on some Rutland HSA Soft White and I hear it's all gone....and no replacement product is available.
I need a replacement HSA opaque white asap, we're down to our last 4gal here.
When we initially settled on Rutland there were less options available and I've only tested one of the newer options. CCI Pure White, Wilflex Oasis and Green Galaxy all were beat by Rutland Soft White in testing, although CCI's was close in performance, just a touch runny so the opacity suffered a bit.
That leaves Magna, Matsui's new stuff, and Virus no? Also need west coast availability on this.
The AquaFlex or AquaFlex V2 from MagnaColours would be a possible product offset for the Rutland HSA Soft White.
If you're interesting in reviewing this ink please drop me an email with your contact information and I'll get a 5KG sample on the way to you.
Peter
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Looks like Mr Walsh has got a good offer for you.
We use the Optimoon, but hit up SPR and ask for Kevin, or I can
shoot you his email tomorrow. One of the rare sales dudes that has
used the new (to the US) inks extensively. If you need a fantastic
black plastisol ask him about his mix as well. Oh, and they sell the
IT wb black thats super cheap and actually really nice.
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Peter - thanks! Nazdar has been a good supplier to us and I'd be happy to try the Magna HSA. Email sent. The TDS you attached noted this as a process/tonal ink, is there an HO white offered by Magna?
Sean - I'll ask for Kevin and that's encouraging to have a sales rep that knows the product. HSA can be hard with reps. What's this IT WB Black? Not to derail but we use CCI Spot Black for an RFU black. It's good, performs well on a wide variety of fabrics v. cheaper options which lack adhesion on some blends/neons, but it's a bear with dry in on high mesh and does not receive additives well.
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Peter - thanks! Nazdar has been a good supplier to us and I'd be happy to try the Magna HSA. Email sent. The TDS you attached noted this as a process/tonal ink, is there an HO white offered by Magna?
Sean - I'll ask for Kevin and that's encouraging to have a sales rep that knows the product. HSA can be hard with reps. What's this IT WB Black? Not to derail but we use CCI Spot Black for an RFU black. It's good, performs well on a wide variety of fabrics v. cheaper options which lack adhesion on some blends/neons, but it's a bear with dry in on high mesh and does not receive additives well.
Good catch Chris, let me check in with some of the smart people at Nazdar SourceOne and make sure that we send you MagnaColours most Opaque HSA White.
Stay tuned.
Peter
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I was told some time ago that Rutland was reformulating their HSA line to be more user friendly and more opaque, with white being their first color made. I was also told that Rutland believed they had plenty of inventory on hand to keep making ink until the re-formulation was done....
Kelly told me today that.... they are still working on it and it is their number one priority..... /sigh :)
I have heard really good things about the 301 stretch white, but I have not had a need to try it yet.
Best of luck with your replacement search! Fill us in on the details!
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I was told some time ago that Rutland was reformulating their HSA line to be more user friendly and more opaque, with white being their first color made. I was also told that Rutland believed they had plenty of inventory on hand to keep making ink until the re-formulation was done....
Kelly told me today that.... they are still working on it and it is their number one priority..... /sigh :)
I have heard really good things about the 301 stretch white, but I have not had a need to try it yet.
Best of luck with your replacement search! Fill us in on the details!
I have the 301 stretch white. It is nice but dries in the screen almost instantly. I need to order some additive to keep it open longer. It is a GREAT ink though once on the shirt PFP, super opaque and has a little stretch to it.
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Sean - I'll ask for Kevin and that's encouraging to have a sales rep that knows the product. HSA can be hard with reps. What's this IT WB Black? Not to derail but we use CCI Spot Black for an RFU black. It's good, performs well on a wide variety of fabrics v. cheaper options which lack adhesion on some blends/neons, but it's a bear with dry in on high mesh and does not receive additives well.
IT is Image Technologies I think. Apparently when they were handing out screen printing chemical company acronyms you had the
choice of three letters, I, T or C.
Put it through 305 on 500 pieces yesterday. I know we printed a ton of viscose blends a while ago but that may have been a different black.
At fifteen a gallon I'd say give it a whirl. Oddly, I had used it years ago when looking for a premix, and hated it. Tried it again
recently and was really impressed.
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I like the Virus Hydracryl white with 5% retarder. Also the magna HSA white is great as well with 5% retarder. The virus ink we get is from http://www.spsi.biz/ (http://www.spsi.biz/) out of cali. The perfecto white is more for 100% poly of poly blends hsa. We tried to get Rutland HSA but since they were going to stop making it they wouldn't sell it to us. We run both magna now for color mixes and Virus for our under base/white. Magna also is on par with virus for there white but they all need some retarder.
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Didn't know spsi was stocking it., thanks.
Is the perfetto akin to a performance plastisol and more difficult to print?
And yes, we use not one but two unique retarders plus water in the Rutland. It still tries to glue itself to the inside walls of the stencil though.
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Yes its like a performance plastisol. It still requires a gray blocker base on polys in order to prevent dye migration.
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Chris:
What's the humidity like there when you print? I know it varies month to month :)
The designs I do are quite detailed/fine details/fine dots and I stopped needing to add anything to the white.
The only time I need to add water is to replace what has evaporated.
Just curious :)
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Oh it varies but hovers around 14% this time of year and at times in the Summer. Basically it's bone dry in the shop for a good chunk of the year. The HSA will dehydrate on press and sometimes need pulled to rehydrate in the middle of a run. It's definitely not a super friendly ink in our shop but the results are optimal for many prints we do.
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Try matsui.
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Oh it varies but hovers around 14% this time of year and at times in the Summer. Basically it's bone dry in the shop for a good chunk of the year. The HSA will dehydrate on press and sometimes need pulled to rehydrate in the middle of a run. It's definitely not a super friendly ink in our shop but the results are optimal for many prints we do.
I was gonna ask the same as Colin. We've seen the "sticking to the inside walls of the stencil" as well, and I'm
wondering if our screens aren't too dry.
Fun fun fun.
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You can always move here to New Orleans. We have humidity to spare. If you want I'll send you some ;)
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So after testing, here are some notes to share.
Our test was as follows:
73˚F ambient temp
24%RH on press
Platens warmed to ≈135˚F
Quarz flash
135/48 tpi mesh @ 26 n/cm
55/90/55 blade @ 15˚
30psi pressure
Fast flood, med/slow stroke, 2x stroke
1/8" off contact from platen rubber to screen
All inks have 5% of their respective retarder added.
Testing was done as an all HSA print-flash and over a DC UB
Same screen, parameters used on all inks but adjusted slightly for optimal print. Screen was prepped with Matsui Softener XA-1 before each ink was tested.
Cured 2min@350˚F in a Sprint HO.
Magna Aquaflex v. Matsui 301-5 Stretch White v. Virus Hydracryl
Flash Times: All had good, fast flash times, none higher than 3s. Hydracryl White flashed the fastest at 1-2s
Dry in/open time: All were acceptable. Magna Aquaflex had the best open time, extending past the 2 min mark on an open screen (not flooded at rest)
Opacity: All were fairly close here either as 3 hits of HSA + Flash straight to shirt or over DC UB
Hand: Varies here a bit. Most were rougher as standalone HSA prints, acceptable over DC UB. Matsui and Magna had best hand.
Long story short, all looked good out the back of the dryer. None out-performed the Rutland Soft White control prints, particularly on the hand of the finished ink, bridging, stretch and performance over DC UB. Magna had better open time than Rutland from what I could see. All the inks tested here have a much more straightforward additive regimen compared to the cocktail of additives we are required to use in the Soft White.
Gets interesting after our wash regimen.
Magna: Poor wash as standalone HSA, cracking in direction of shirt stretch. Instant adhesions issues 2 wash cycles in over DC UB. Nazdar shipped us a crosslinker to address, retested with same parameter and adhesion was improved but cracking still present.
Virus: Poor wash as standalone HSA, cracking in direction of shirt stretch. No adhesion issues over DC UB but cracking still present.
Matsui: Closest in performance to Rutland after washing. Acceptable to very good over DC UB, minimal to no cracking, zero adhesion issues.
So Matsui wins for us right now. Kinda sitting around waiting for Rutland's next version but also p.o'd about how the discontinuation was handled.
Thanks to Kelly and Christine at RC Screen, Peter Walsh and Simon at Nazdar for samples and support on this. Great people working at excellent suppliers, I love and recommend them all.
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Chris,
Going to Long Beach tomorrow and that's one of my questions to the guys at the Rutland booth....
Thanks for your awesome reporting!
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Let me know what song those birdies sing.
Figured I'd share since I had all the info anyhow.
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Anyone add water to matsui stretch white along with retarder to keep it from drying in the image area?
I had a heck of a time keeping my top white open on a small 75 piece run even with 6% retarder.
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Anyone add water to matsui stretch white along with retarder to keep it from drying in the image area?
I had a heck of a time keeping my top white open on a small 75 piece run even with 6% retarder.
We always rehydrate HSAs. It's tricky though, you don't want to over or under do it. Hydration level impacts opacity greatly at a certain point.
We do it in the bucket because they don't accept misting on press well at all, ends up with a misprint unless done with absolute precision. When they dehydrate on press we add back in/pull the dryer ink back out and hydrate in the bucket.
Also they are weirdly hydrophobic when adding water to them, not sure if that's from the humectants or what...
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Thanks for the update.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
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Not sure what type of HSA your looking? Magan makes a UltraStretch white that is very nice and like matsui. We hardly use the aqua flex for printing since it is design for light shirts. We been loving the HB, Aquaplas ff white, and the Advance print TD neutral from magna. We have had zero issues using a mix of TD neutral and aquaplas ff white to print on top of discharge UB. It does have a slight hand. Still haven't tried HB base with a DC UB since we usually only use the HB when a client wants a discharge feel on a non dischargeable color or fabric.
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This was aqua flex, should I have been evaluating another from magna? I was happy with it all around except for it failing wash, so very willing to try again.
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If i were you I would call Rob Coleman at nazadar, he can walk you through the magna line and find a solution to your needs. I am totally unfamiliar with the Ruthland brand product since they won't sell me any HSA to test back at the start 2015 since there were going to stop making it. They were telling me TKO is the future..... If I were you I would test out the following. HB white base, HB clear base, Aquaplast ff white, Advance print TD and a magna pigments sample kit which should a gallon of one of these bases. You may be able to talk them into sending you 4 different quart samples. I also recommend the magna gel retarder as well. Also there magna mixing software that is pretty nice. I would see if you can get a hold of that and get a idea of what true mixing recipes look like. Best luck on solving this problem.
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Who is TKO?
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Opps typo rutland EKO is what I meant which is a PVC free . I guess the logic is that once the PVC is out of the ink it just as good as water base. I remember rutland having a new HSA overseas and something about having no demand here in the states for it so they were not going to bring it over but we do have this new EKO it's revolutionary....
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Chris,
Going to Long Beach tomorrow and that's one of my questions to the guys at the Rutland booth....
Thanks for your awesome reporting!
Chris: Thanks for the comprehensive testing and product evaluation. I'm going to be with Simon Romero, Rob Coleman and the Team from Magna Tomorrow and will relay this information onto them. I also want to confirm if there are any different HSA inks you should be looking at.
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Opps typo rutland EKO is what I meant which is a PVC free . I guess the logic is that once the PVC is out of the ink it just as good as water base. I remember rutland having a new HSA overseas and something about having no demand here in the states for it so they were not going to bring it over but we do have this new EKO it's revolutionary....
I found Eko ink price too expensive $144 for a gallon of white in Europe.
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Chris,
Going to Long Beach tomorrow and that's one of my questions to the guys at the Rutland booth....
Thanks for your awesome reporting!
Chris: Thanks for the comprehensive testing and product evaluation. I'm going to be with Simon Romero, Rob Coleman and the Team from Magna Tomorrow and will relay this information onto them. I also want to confirm if there are any different HSA inks you should be looking at.
And thanks for the great service Peter, it's much appreciated. Have a great weekend and time at ISS if you are there.
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The word from Rutland is no new HSA white until MUCH LATER this year.
That is all....
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Why not use the Union HSA white, it`s all the same anyway, just rebranded.
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I was not aware there was a Union HSA. Is it available over seas?
Since all U.S. manufacturing of Rutland Group products is done at their main facility in North Carolina, I trust the info the Rutland chemists gave me about no new U.S. product until later in the year.
But I think i will still check on the Union :)
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Talk to Mike Ukena at the Union booth. Last I knew Union did have a HSA line.
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The Rutland Group: Rutland, QCM, Union, Printop are all in the same booth :)
All the sales reps were in the same spot.
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But for whatever reason they don't seem to promote each other.
Mike is our Union Ink rep. tell him Patrick from GoWest sent you to talk about HSA. I haven't talked to him for a while about HSA, but he would know.
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Unfortunately, I am already home from the show.
But i can double check with my rep on monday.
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I was not aware there was a Union HSA. Is it available over seas?
Since all U.S. manufacturing of Rutland Group products is done at their main facility in North Carolina, I trust the info the Rutland chemists gave me about no new U.S. product until later in the year.
But I think i will still check on the Union :)
There is indeed. Have the whole set here. I was told by my contact at Rutland that they generally just rebrand their products.
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Not true in most cases
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Agreed.. otherwise the other lines would have the same poor quality control too, lol.
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Well let me say it this way, a friend of mine used to be the Director of International Sales at Rutland. He confirmed that it`s true for many of the newer product lines.
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Mhmm. Rockers is right...
Which is why I made the comments earlier that I did.
Now if there is stock of a Union HSA white somewhere.....