TSB
screen printing => General Screen Printing => Topic started by: Wildcard on December 19, 2015, 07:20:58 PM
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There are so many possible variations and differing ideas in screen printing that it can be tricky to decide on a particular approach. No topic seems more varied than how to print white ink on darks...
I would like to hear a collective version of the 5 key factors to achieve a great spot white print with plastisol. By 'spot white' I'm thinking of a plain logo, text, or similar that has a clean, smooth, bright white finish. I think a collection of short answers over a wide spread of users would give a cool overview of what works in different shops.
Are you using an auto or manual? 1,2 or 3 screens? Mesh and stencil? Stroke speeds/angles/pressure? Modified inks?
What would be your top 5 factors to nail down that perfect retail quality white logo?
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good luck
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mooseman
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#1 (for my operation) is S mesh. PFP using a 180 or 225 gives good opacity with a relatively soft hand.
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From what I have seen at JC Penny and Macy's, "retail" is not something I would call a perfect white...or a decent print for that matter.... More like the quality control guy fell asleep....
best white we can get is 2 screens with a flash and a roller screen after the flash...inks don't really matter, they all print fine, you just have to learn how to use them for their intended purpose and make adjustments.
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2 Screens. 2 Inks. 2 Squeegees
196 Mesh and 230 Mesh
Wilflex Russell Grey Any White (Just about)
70 Duro Double Bevel and 80 Duro Double bevel
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166 mesh (around there)
Discharge White (we like CCI d-white, others like rutland)
sorry just saw that it says plastisol
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1. Good exposure light to get good EOM. A light that can penetrate the whole screen effectively.
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1. Mix: Ink must be mixed or worked so that ink is fluid. This means a large scoop will not stay on a vertical goop scoop. Adding heat also will get you to this fluid state with less mixing.
2. Print must 100% clear the screen on first layer of white. If it takes one or two passes does not matter. It has to clear the screen before it is flashed.
3 flash
4 Repeat repeat 2 after a 100 percent non sticky dry flash.
5. Don't use EOM, special squeegees, special screens or other equipment as the answer to make your print acceptable. You can make a great white print with a wood screen with crap mesh and no eom. Learn your press with what you have. Then if you need to or what to: add EOM, special squeegees, special screens or other equipment. You will get better results.
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Yup, about 2 rules around here.
- Creamy white ink
- 150S mesh print/flash/print with whatever squeegee it takes to clear with one stroke
If it doesn't clear with one stroke see step 1.
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Yup, about 2 rules around here.
- Creamy white ink
- 150S mesh print/flash/print with whatever squeegee it takes to clear with one stroke
If it doesn't clear with one stroke see step 1.
same here for us.
we've tried to use 180S and 225S, and are never happy with the coverage for a pfp type of print... once we go to the 150S, we are perfect...
OneStroke Hybrid White is our choice for 'creamy' white ink... when we have to run plastisol, that's what we choose.
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Another thing to consider is a good garment, I've printed white ink that was very smooth on some shirts and terrible on other's same print run.
#1 sharp blades
#2 Tight screens
#3 good EOM
#4 well stirred ink
#5 and good understanding of what to expect
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My "key factors" mirror what most people have said:
S mesh (135S, 150S, or 180S depending on the art and material being printed)
Ink that is well mixed and warmed
Pallets that are pre-warmed
I find the S mesh and being able to clear the mesh in one pass easily is by far the most important specific thing for me. I cannot get as smooth, soft, and opaque a white with a standard 110/160/etc mesh. I have printed well using a lot of different whites as long as you stir well and warm the ink a bit (but not every white, some just blow at matte down or clearing screens no matter what you do). I refuse to modify a white ink when you can just buy a better white, and there are so many options out there. I have used a few different squeegees, and while i prefer a quick, light push stroke (manual printer here) with a triple duro blade, I have gotten fine results with standard 70 duro and a pull stroke.
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4XX mesh, bullet nosed squeegee. ;D Or what the other guys said... we like 180 first, 230 second.
Steve
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:) ANSWER Circa 1978...Thin white ink with mineral spirits, use 8xx mesh, 10xx for fine detail. Use a rounded squeegee blade. Print on a platen covered with a thin layer of foam padding covered with naugahyde. Don't worry about the stencil thickness 'cause you're using the green hand cut film applied with lacquer and you have no control. Merry Christmas to all you other old timers than remember what it was like when dinosaurs walked the earth.
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Interestingly I have seen it recommended to use finer mesh on the underbase, with coarser as the top white (presumably for flash speed), but also seen the opposite recommended as a better approach for matt down in the underbase and a smoother finish on the top coat.
S mesh doesn't seem to have much support here in Aus so I'm assuming that a 150S is about the same as a 120 in a regular T mesh (in terms of clearing ink that is)
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:) ANSWER Circa 1978...Thin white ink with mineral spirits, use 8xx mesh, 10xx for fine detail. Use a rounded squeegee blade. Print on a platen covered with a thin layer of foam padding covered with naugahyde. Don't worry about the stencil thickness 'cause you're using the green hand cut film applied with lacquer and you have no control. Merry Christmas to all you other old timers than remember what it was like when dinosaurs walked the earth.
The white still had lead in it I think, Andy?
Steve
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Most important is the mesh. If you go into a shop that struggles with printing white whether it be an underbase, top white, one-hit white, whatever, I would wager a bet that there is a 98% chance that they are using standard mesh counts. I have quite a few local shop owners that come by our shop to pick up their embroidery and they usually stop by the other building to visit with me and check out what we're printing. None of the 6 or 7 guys that have asked me how our white looks like it does (complimentary) use thin thread mesh. You can have the very best white ink in the world, sharpest blades, highest tension, perfect off contact, the right EOM, and all of the other things mentioned and if you're using a mesh count that looks like an hourglass your prints will suffer. They don't have to suffer, they don't want to suffer and whoever is making the decisions on what mesh to use in the shop is the one holding the print quality and production back.
I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings and I say this more to light a fire under those of you who are still using standard mesh counts with plastisol inks, but there really is no GOOD excuse to not be using the right mesh counts for plastisol printing. Standard mesh counts are not good for the vast majority of plastisol inks and all these suppliers out there hopefully are just stocking what their customers are asking for (there are a few that insist on selling standard mesh for whatever reason...money :) ) and it shouldn't be hard for anyone to stock the right mesh for the job. Joe was showing people how much better thin thread was for plastisol printing at least as far back as the mid 90's and the fact that probably 95% or more of the textile printers are still using standard mesh is almost unbelievable to me...almost.
I hope that my local competitors keep using standard mesh and it's one of the only things I really worry about when it comes to how we compare with the other local shops and quality. As long as they're using standard mesh we'll always have a superior print quality, will be able to print it faster and use less ink...those are facts that cannot be disputed.
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Alan, I suspect that another answer as to why not every shop has changed over to thin thread meshes is the added fragility.
Plain and simple, they are more difficult to care for and require a finesse and concern in handling that seems to be lacking in many employees according to posts I have read here.
Heck, when I see the many piss and moan threads about finding good employees, I'm reminded how happy I am to have remained a one frog operation.
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Alan to your argument, hasn't thin thread been around forever?, I ask several supply companies about S mesh and they all say the same thing that's it's been around forever, but was used I think in the offset printing world. So why is it taking so long for people to catch on to using this mesh for garment printing?, I know I do like it and yes it's great for printing white ink wish all my screen were S mesh. My question still is if this mesh is the go to mesh why wouldn't all the screen companies sell it as the standard mesh.
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we are nearly 100% s-mesh here.
only non-smesh screens are 305's for specialty process work, and glitter screens - 24 and 60 mesh.
everything else is 160S and 225S.
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Alan to your argument, hasn't thin thread been around forever?, I ask several supply companies about S mesh and they all say the same thing that's it's been around forever, but was used I think in the offset printing world. So why is it taking so long for people to catch on to using this mesh for garment printing?, I know I do like it and yes it's great for printing white ink wish all my screen were S mesh. My question still is if this mesh is the go to mesh why wouldn't all the screen companies sell it as the standard mesh.
Hey Darryl, it's been around since I can remember; my first shop used 305S, after we graduated from multi-filament. But Offset? For what? Back then there were 3 designations from suppliers as I remember it; HD for heavy duty, T is our "normal" and S for fine stuff (better resolution of details). My guess is the suppliers didn't push it, maybe they weren't as knowledgable as they could have been. I found 110S from Murakami about 15 years ago, so yeah, it's been around.
Steve
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Still waiting for Bimm to tell me what he's using....I think it's something geared towards the circuit board industry....Dave?
we use mostly S as well. From River City in Texas. I have been trying screens from tons of vendors over the years and these guys deserve the sale...we could not be happier.
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I don't really know how long it's been out, I'm still relatively new to the industry compared to many and only know that Joe was touting it AT LEAST 20 years ago as the mesh to use. Why it hasn't caught on till now probably has to do with a few different factors but mainly because shops weren't telling the suppliers that it's what they wanted. I know if I asked for the mesh counts I wanted to use and a supplier told me they couldn't sell it to me I'd just move on and find someone who would. Free market should square all of it away just fine but I suppose there was also some resistance on the part of the suppliers because I've been told that there is more money in selling standard mesh count (don't know the reason but was told that by someone who would know). As to the question on why it isn't the standard mesh, well, I don't know why it's not BUT IT SHOULD BE. It is technically easier to bust but a thin thread screen can last just as long as a standard mesh if you don't abuse it. If we had a shop with 3 of me in production I doubt we'd ever bust a screen, or it would be only a few per year. A shop that takes care of their screens won't have issues with the delicacy of thin thread mesh.
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I might need to dig a little deeper, but every screen supplier and re-mesh operation that I have looked into here only offers T mesh. When I've asked about S mesh I don't really get any results, but lets leave that aside until I've done more searching and assume there is no regular supply of S mesh in Australia: If I am going to import my own mesh it makes sense to also go to retensionable frames.
Any recommendations for a retensionable frame system with S mesh options that has a good price/quality balance? I'm assuming I wont be able to afford the best. Shurloc vs Newman? Is this question going to derail the thread topic :P
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Not trying to derail thread. Messaging you now.
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How about one?
Peel.
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For those of you who mention warming the plastisol, what if the ideal temperature to print at?
I tried S Mesh and my shop couldn't handle it, kept ripping the screens. We are moving soon and hopefully our plant with handle S mesh better.
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For those of you who mention warming the plastisol, what if the ideal temperature to print at?
I tried S Mesh and my shop couldn't handle it, kept ripping the screens. We are moving soon and hopefully our plant with handle S mesh better.
I don't know the ideal temp, but when it's stored in a room with a thermostat set to 70, it works nicely for me.
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I think different plastisol behaves better at lower temps..
ie. OneStroke Hybrid and Bravo Flex whites... those inks are smooth and easy to print even on a cold press first thing in the morning when the shop is around 60 degrees...
other inks, yes I think you need to warm them, or modify them to get them to print correctly (rutlands crap comes to mind... never could get a good print without modifying the hell out of them).
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^ This is true for my experience. I find Sericol low bleed white right out the bucket to be easier than Wilflex Artist white, however after a good workout on the auto that Artist white is like a completely different ink.
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A few years back I used Wilflex Artist, liked it, but when I tried to order some from Nazdar Source One, was told that it was discontinued, prompting the search for a replacement.
Is it back or is it just a "down under" thing?
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The lower the viscosity of a white: The better it performs at low temps.
---- You get that ink at working temp on an auto, and it becomes very runny. Typically losing the opacity you liked at lower temps.
The higher the viscosity of an ink: The poorer it performs at low temps.
--- You get that ink at working temp on an auto and it maintains a good viscosity for higher opacity prints I.e. a better looking white.
Can you make a lower visc white perform better at working temps? Absolutely, however, you are now creating a work around in order to MAKE that white ink work for you.
Depending on your shops parameters, working temps will vary from 80 degrees to 100 degrees.
Inks are tested in the Lab at approximately 72 degrees.
I know for myself, we try to keep our board temperatures at around 130 degrees when running. Lower if possible.
This keeps the working temps of my inks a bit lower than most shops I have been in.
I have not touched on inks becoming runny or getting gritty as that's a different discussion.
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A few years back I used Wilflex Artist, liked it, but when I tried to order some from Nazdar Source One, was told that it was discontinued, prompting the search for a replacement.
Is it back or is it just a "down under" thing?
The ink is technically named Artist Plus White, so perhaps it is a rehash version of the original ink? I can't imagine we get anything that isn't available in the US since everything is imported.
I haven't tried many inks but this seems to be the local area go-to ink for cotton.
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I thought Artist Plus White has phthalates. They still sell it in Indonesia because they import it from Polyone factory in China.
I have started to use Rutland Street Fighter 2, I find it creamer than Artist Plus White and it is way cheaper than Artist.
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This is a very possible reason, as far as I know phthalate inks are unrestricted in Aus. I should probably pay more attention to this detail...
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I might need to dig a little deeper, but every screen supplier and re-mesh operation that I have looked into here only offers T mesh. When I've asked about S mesh I don't really get any results, but lets leave that aside until I've done more searching and assume there is no regular supply of S mesh in Australia: If I am going to import my own mesh it makes sense to also go to retensionable frames.
Any recommendations for a retensionable frame system with S mesh options that has a good price/quality balance? I'm assuming I wont be able to afford the best. Shurloc vs Newman? Is this question going to derail the thread topic :P
You need to ask for thin mesh. Kiwo supplies premeshed frames. Murakami S-Mesh no one stocks.