TSB
screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: farmboygraphics on January 07, 2016, 01:33:35 PM
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Ugh, these slow computers are pushing me to my limits here. Considering updating all of them at once. Guess I'm asking for recommendations and can windows 10 be trusted to run our solvent printers? Looking for off the shelf models as I'm not sinking money into 4 custom built units.
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Tom,
what are you looking to run on those units?
pierre
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Pierre,
Corel X7 on all, Versa Works on 2 of them, Other 2 are on the desk running pricing software. All files get saved to a server.
Tom
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Pierre,
Corel X7 on all, Versa Works on 2 of them, Other 2 are on the desk running pricing software. All files get saved to a server.
Tom
these are ROCK solid and if you have the time can potentially find them cheaper used on ebay. If you just want to be up and running, get them directly here:
http://outlet.lenovo.com/outlet_us/itemdetails/30AKX025US/445 (http://outlet.lenovo.com/outlet_us/itemdetails/30AKX025US/445)
at 8GB of RAM, they will need to be upgraded for the boxes that will run X7 and versa works. Original Lenovo RAM is expensive, but the reliability is fantastic. Installing aftermarket parts reduces the reliability so we use only the original, but that's your call.
for the pricing software, just about anything will do as long as it is reliable. these should work:
http://outlet.lenovo.com/outlet_us/itemdetails/30AKX004US/445 (http://outlet.lenovo.com/outlet_us/itemdetails/30AKX004US/445)
let me know if you have any more questions . . .
pierre
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Thank you Pierre!
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http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&IsNodeId=1&N=100019096%20600337482&cm_sp=Cat_Desktop-Computers_7-_-Visnav-_-AMD-A10_1 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&IsNodeId=1&N=100019096%20600337482&cm_sp=Cat_Desktop-Computers_7-_-Visnav-_-AMD-A10_1)
I custom build all of ours for added upgrade ability, you can buy component kits relatively cheep, but they do have pre-built systems on newegg as well.
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Building computers these days is about as hard as building a Duplo set for a toddler honestly. There are usually less than a dozen components and each comes with diagrams that show you every step. If you have ZERO knowledge, especially about compatibility, you can use a site like https://pcpartpicker.com/ and enter a budget or just look at their build guide for a few minutes to get a sense of how much power you need. That site even links you to the sites where you can buy the parts and shows you the lowest price with rebates and everything. It is super simple and not at all time consuming. Building it yourself will usually cost you around half what a prebuilt system will and usually takes about 2 hours, plus some downtime while you load the OS.
The main issue with prebuilts usually is you will get a few great parts, like the cpu or videocard or whatever, but they will include a horrible motherboard or bad ram or a slow harddrive, and unless you know what you're looking at you will miss where they are fleecing you. So many of their builds will be underpowered and overpriced in a number of ways.
The other annoying issue is all the bloatware they include when they preinstall your OS. My mother in law just bought a dell laptop and I ended up just reformatting and installing my own OS fresh because the damn thing barely ran with all the crap they included preinstalled and there were popups prompting her to buy subscriptions and register for this or that service every minute she was using it. SHUDDER...
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Just built 3 new rigs for the shop over Christmas and new years. Now I'm pissed I didn't upgrade mine! ;)
Hell, if I can follow directions to make one, anyone can! Top of the line computer for $500? Yes sign me up!
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I've built all of the computers for the shop over the last 8 years. At the very least you will put a 3rd of the price of a prebuilt back in your pocket. Plus like mentioned before they are super simple these days.
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We build all of ours as well, but we don't save money doing it. We do end up with better machines though. We go over the top though when we do it, super stable rigs. Every rig here has i7's, SSD's, multiple internal data drives, 32gb of ram, Nvida Quatro GPU's, dual monitors, water cooling, etc. Rockets....
I would always suggest building your computers, off the shelf computers almost always have something they compromised to offer some value/price point.
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i will second what pierre is saying. he turned me onto Thinkstations a while back, they freaking run. I have built systems myself, I've had systems built, but nothing compares to the reliability of a Thinkstation. Heck, the processors are Xeon, which are server grade. On many of the systems you buy for $600-$1000 the video cards alone are worth twice that. Pair that with ECC RAM and everything else they use and they are awesome systems.
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i will second what pierre is saying. he turned me onto Thinkstations a while back, they freaking run. I have built systems myself, I've had systems built, but nothing compares to the reliability of a Thinkstation. Heck, the processors are Xeon, which are server grade. On many of the systems you buy for $600-$1000 the video cards alone are worth twice that. Pair that with ECC RAM and everything else they use and they are awesome systems.
Not everything on that site is a great value or has graphics cards that are that expensive. There are some good deals on there at times. That machine he just linked up there has a $150 Graphics Card. The Xeon in it is 2 years old and only a $250 processor. Its fairly priced rig I would say at that price, but let's not make it out to be some super computer.
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The computer I just built that runs all of the graphics programs wasn't cheap, it has an 8 core water cooled intel i7 processor, 32 gigs of ram and 2 Samsung ssds in raid 0 . We can have every graphic program open without a hiccup. This beast begs for more.
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water cooling, etc.
Annnnnnnnnd ish just real! :o
Never done water cooling myself, that's some serious stuff!
Bought all the fixings for one of the last computers online for in store pick up. When I went in to get it, the kid that brought it all to the register said "woah, that's a serious gaming rig bro!" Ahhhhh yes, that reminded me why I enjoy buying online for delivery! ;)
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There are a lot of closed loop water systems that are essentially plug and play like any other aftermarket cooler.
I've never done a custom water cooler setup yet... just the closed loop.
The last pc I built for the wife, I got a cooler so big I had to modify the case as I didn't accommodate for the massive radiator. :)
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i will second what pierre is saying. he turned me onto Thinkstations a while back, they freaking run. I have built systems myself, I've had systems built, but nothing compares to the reliability of a Thinkstation. Heck, the processors are Xeon, which are server grade. On many of the systems you buy for $600-$1000 the video cards alone are worth twice that. Pair that with ECC RAM and everything else they use and they are awesome systems.
Sorry, but no...
You are still paying someone a premium to build a computer you can also build easily yourself for less money using identical parts. There is nothing special about one brand of prebuilt computer vs another when they are literally all using the same internal hardware. The differences are cosmetic (the case), and what bloatware they load on the OS. If you want a top of the line Thinkstation for less money look here: http://shop.lenovo.com/ae/en/workstations/thinkstation/d-series/d30/#tab-tech_specs, (http://shop.lenovo.com/ae/en/workstations/thinkstation/d-series/d30/#tab-tech_specs,) pick the parts you want, and put it together on pcpartpicker while upgrading or downgrading as you see fit for your needs, buy, build, and done. You will save a lot of money in the end.
The funny thing these days is this pretty much even extends to Mac's these days since they are using intel components. You can build a hackintosh that is faster than available prebuilt macs for much less, though you have to be a bit more knowledgeable due to issues that pop up on the hardware side...
I built my computer two years ago, and got a black friday deal on a top of the line Xeon processor at the time for $70 less than they are currently selling for even though I bought it two years ago when they were new. I think it was close to half off the standard pricing at the time. I spent $1500 at the time, including 3 1080p monitors, all new peripherals including 7.1 surround sound, shipping, etc. The closest specced machine I could find prebuilt at the time was running nearly $3.5k for just the box (during black friday even...), no monitors or peripherals. pcpartpicker alone saved me almost $700 on specific sites' black friday deals and coupon codes and links to manufacturer rebates...I have yet to bog this beast down.
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Those Thinkstations aren't bad for those that don't want to get their hands dirty.
It's not the insane markup that most charge for lesser machines.
I build PC's as part of my living... it's SUPER easy... but at the same time, my brother, who is a database genius.... barely can hook up the tower to the peripherals. Some people it just doesn't click for. I don't get databases in almost the same way he doesn't get hardware. ;)
I 100% agree with you that you can save money by building yourself... but some would rather spend the extra 200-400 and be done with it. That's how I make my living. ;)
Also there are many tweaks that go into setting up a system PROPERLY. So much so that I keep a check list for various styles of builds (AMD vs INTEL, SSD vs Platter) as I can't remember it all.
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I agree to a certain extent, though unless you are building a pretty low end machine, that $200-400 is more like $600-800+ in my experience. For a basic computer that will run Office and lets you browse the internet, sure go for the prebuilt if you have no experience. For something with ample power to run Adobe without any slowdowns, render the odd video or 3D model, or truly multitask, you are going to spend a lot more on a prebuilt. Hell, if you don't want to build it yourself, buy the parts and pay a flat fee for someone like Gilligan to put it together.
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water cooling, etc.
Annnnnnnnnd ish just real! :o
Never done water cooling myself, that's some serious stuff!
Bought all the fixings for one of the last computers online for in store pick up. When I went in to get it, the kid that brought it all to the register said "woah, that's a serious gaming rig bro!" Ahhhhh yes, that reminded me why I enjoy buying online for delivery! ;)
Ya its just a plug and play unit, easy to install closed loop. Make sure if you do one in the future you dont by a case thats super small they are hard to find enough room in smaller cases. But they are quiet keep the cpu cool!
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I used a Rosewill Challenger U3... not a "small" case, but clearly not enough. ;)
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I used a Rosewill Challenger U3... not a "small" case, but clearly not enough. ;)
They can be a bitch to get enough room in some cases. I use a NZXT on 3 of our rigs and some Corsair cases on some others. I did just notice I lost 2gb off one of my ram chips. Thats first hardware issue ive had outside a hard drive in about 10 years lol.
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It's probably on a chip that never even sees any usage with as much RAM as you put in the system. :p
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Those Thinkstations aren't bad for those that don't want to get their hands dirty.
It's not the insane markup that most charge for lesser machines.
I build PC's as part of my living... it's SUPER easy... but at the same time, my brother, who is a database genius.... barely can hook up the tower to the peripherals. Some people it just doesn't click for. I don't get databases in almost the same way he doesn't get hardware. ;)
I 100% agree with you that you can save money by building yourself... but some would rather spend the extra 200-400 and be done with it. That's how I make my living. ;)
Also there are many tweaks that go into setting up a system PROPERLY. So much so that I keep a check list for various styles of builds (AMD vs INTEL, SSD vs Platter) as I can't remember it all.
We've debate the finer points of building your own before and from what I know, Gilligan and myself are the only two that did (or in his case still do) work with computers for living. I also have a computer engineering background and at one point could design the chips going into the motherboard. Also was an IBM partner and had 12K square feet of computers and parts in the warehouse, 3 levels high. Before that, I set up repair departments for computer resale shops. Before that, I owned a computer networking company servicing local cities and corporate clients. All of this to give some perspective on where I am coming from.
And agree almost completely with Gilligan. Putting computers together is easy. Almost anybody can get a screen with a stencil and push some ink through it. That does not meant it's a great print. How thick is the deposit, will it wash out, are the lines clean, how fine of a dot can you hold and so on . . . Same with computers. Fine tuning the system for the components in it is a job that requires a lot of research and is a job for a professional like Gilly. Home built boxes often sacrifice reliability for performance and for business use it should be the other way around. Lenovo spends MILLIONS of dollars testing and certifying the hardware on the Thinkstations. Our boxes here run an average of a year before needing a reboot. These are computers designed for continuous heavy duty utilization where crashing and incompatibility are not an option. Then as the patches are released to the OS and software they find solutions to any issues and post results with fixes. I have spent days trying to track down intermittent issues on some custom boxes where when it was an IBM all I had to do was check the site and download the patch. Prebuilt boxes also come with support. To those of us that can fix it, this might not be worth much. But in all honesty, I actually pay an IT company to monitor and service our computers (mix of out of warranty Dell desktops and Lenovo workstations and servers) if needed as I just don't have the time any more.
So to recap, yes, you can build your own and will save up to 20% which can be a lot of money. The boxes I linked to are a good balance of performance, cost and stability. Even the regular computers by the big companies will have higher reliability then the average home built box. And it comes with added benefit of having support if you need it. For a little less money and when less RnD funding is needed, call Gilly and he'll set you up with a properly configured box. Hobby printers normally don't have the resource and ability to produce what an organized auto shop will do. My home computer is home built, but the work stuff I leave to professionals. . .
pierre
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I agree to a certain extent, though unless you are building a pretty low end machine, that $200-400 is more like $600-800+ in my experience. For a basic computer that will run Office and lets you browse the internet, sure go for the prebuilt if you have no experience. For something with ample power to run Adobe without any slowdowns, render the odd video or 3D model, or truly multitask, you are going to spend a lot more on a prebuilt. Hell, if you don't want to build it yourself, buy the parts and pay a flat fee for someone like Gilligan to put it together.
for Office and Internet, buy the $99-$149 Dell refurb from Micro Center or some place like it. You can't build half a computer with Operating System for that money.
Same with high end, buy refurb or end of life from manufacturer, you save money and get a good box. You avoid paying the premium for the latest and greatest, but still get good enough performance with high reliability.
pierre
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I agree to a certain extent, though unless you are building a pretty low end machine, that $200-400 is more like $600-800+ in my experience. For a basic computer that will run Office and lets you browse the internet, sure go for the prebuilt if you have no experience. For something with ample power to run Adobe without any slowdowns, render the odd video or 3D model, or truly multitask, you are going to spend a lot more on a prebuilt. Hell, if you don't want to build it yourself, buy the parts and pay a flat fee for someone like Gilligan to put it together.
The system that Pierre pointed out only cost $685... I don't see how you can build a system like that and SAVE $600-800+ unless those parts fell off the back of a truck. :p
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As an ex IT guy of over a decade I would highly recommend against any unnecessary updating of production equipment. So long as you are getting all security updates for your current operating system I'd advise against any non-essential upgrades.
Once something works and continues working, in a production environment, making any non-essential changes is playing with fire.
...now, my CTS with XP on it? Gotta do something about that soon.
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Do these particular factory refurbs come with the same freshly installed bloat and sleazeware that seem to be Lenovo's current trademark and among the worst in the industry with their consumer PC's and laptops?
I just needed to buy a mid priced laptop and avoided Lenovo on this principle.
http://www.networkworld.com/article/2978021/microsoft-subnet/lenovo-bloatware-firmware-pcs.html (http://www.networkworld.com/article/2978021/microsoft-subnet/lenovo-bloatware-firmware-pcs.html)
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Do these particular factory refurbs come with the same freshly installed bloat and sleazeware that seem to be Lenovo's current trademark and among the worst in the industry with their consumer PC's and laptops?
I just needed to buy a mid priced laptop and avoided Lenovo on this principle.
[url]http://www.networkworld.com/article/2978021/microsoft-subnet/lenovo-bloatware-firmware-pcs.html[/url] ([url]http://www.networkworld.com/article/2978021/microsoft-subnet/lenovo-bloatware-firmware-pcs.html[/url])
Workstations will generally have less, but it will still be there. Yes, you will have to go and delete/uninstall stuff. . . Some will eventually end up staying and use up your cycles.
pierre
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Use something like Revo Uninstaller to get rid of the junk as it digs deeper.
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It's probably on a chip that never even sees any usage with as much RAM as you put in the system. :p
I use most of it too, I like not closing programs ;)
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I agree to a certain extent, though unless you are building a pretty low end machine, that $200-400 is more like $600-800+ in my experience. For a basic computer that will run Office and lets you browse the internet, sure go for the prebuilt if you have no experience. For something with ample power to run Adobe without any slowdowns, render the odd video or 3D model, or truly multitask, you are going to spend a lot more on a prebuilt. Hell, if you don't want to build it yourself, buy the parts and pay a flat fee for someone like Gilligan to put it together.
The system that Pierre pointed out only cost $685... I don't see how you can build a system like that and SAVE $600-800+ unless those parts fell off the back of a truck. :p
That computer is a low end computer, so as I mentioned you could save $200-400 by building vs purchasing. It's hard to tell from that site exactly which components are being used, but aside from the processor, the computer is pretty low end all around. The video card would be an awful choice/value if you were building your own for example. No info at all on the mobo, lowest spec RAM around, etc. Doing some quick pcpartpicker checking on the components you can look up, and inflating the price a bit to account for the case and peripherals and shipping, you would easily come in under $450 for that computer building it yourself, and half of that is just the CPU. Like I said earlier, most prebuilts will have one or two components that make it look like a good deal, but will skimp on the other stuff.
We had 19 workstations, 2 servers, and 14 laptops at my old job, and over the 5+ years I worked there, they used Dell and then Lenovo during the one major upgrade. For them the warranties and "service" made the extra expense worth it. For me, I spend more time dealing with horrible service and dumbass techs and uninstalling bloatware than I thought was worth it, shrug.
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We've debate the finer points of building your own before and from what I know, Gilligan and myself are the only two that did (or in his case still do) work with computers for living. I also have a computer engineering background and at one point could design the chips going into the motherboard. Also was an IBM partner and had 12K square feet of computers and parts in the warehouse, 3 levels high. Before that, I set up repair departments for computer resale shops. Before that, I owned a computer networking company servicing local cities and corporate clients. All of this to give some perspective on where I am coming from.
pierre
My buddy's kid has a Phd, thinks he's the smartest guy in the world. His dad was a firefighter before opening his now several million dollar a year business which he creates/invents/builds machines. His kid gets offended when people suggest his dad is a engineer because he has no degree to back it up. The kid calls his dad at best a inventor. The kid works for his dad. The kid drives a Jeep to work, his dad drives a Ferrari. ;)
Another fun story is my artist used to be in the offset printing world. He took classes in college taught by a professor who knew it all, had all the experience to back it up and the resume that seemed to tell the story. Until you considered he failed at 3 prior printing businesses and hasn't owned one in over a decade but is some how an expert on printing today. My employee was already working part time while in school for a offset printer and suggested he learned nothing in that class that was relevant to how a print shop runs at that current period and it's no wonder his businesses failed.
A monkey can build a stable computer. Id suggest anyone considering it without knowledge of computer parts seek out someone for help with the components they select but nearly anyone can assemble it.
I just think when you guys go on about these used, refurbished, and at times old computers you should classify that a bit when posting them to people who know no difference. I am sure they run great, don't doubt it for a second. But my mother has a $400 HP computer that never needs rebooted either... doesn't mean it's awesome ;)
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We've debate the finer points of building your own before and from what I know, Gilligan and myself are the only two that did (or in his case still do) work with computers for living. I also have a computer engineering background and at one point could design the chips going into the motherboard. Also was an IBM partner and had 12K square feet of computers and parts in the warehouse, 3 levels high. Before that, I set up repair departments for computer resale shops. Before that, I owned a computer networking company servicing local cities and corporate clients. All of this to give some perspective on where I am coming from.
pierre
My buddy's kid has a Phd, thinks he's the smartest guy in the world. His dad was a firefighter before opening his now several million dollar a year business which he creates/invents/builds machines. His kid gets offended when people suggest his dad is a engineer because he has no degree to back it up. The kid calls his dad at best a inventor. The kid works for his dad. The kid drives a Jeep to work, his dad drives a Ferrari. ;)
Another fun story is my artist used to be in the offset printing world. He took classes in college taught by a professor who knew it all, had all the experience to back it up and the resume that seemed to tell the story. Until you considered he failed at 3 prior printing businesses and hasn't owned one in over a decade but is some how an expert on printing today. My employee was already working part time while in school for a offset printer and suggested he learned nothing in that class that was relevant to how a print shop runs at that current period and it's no wonder his businesses failed.
A monkey can build a stable computer. Id suggest anyone considering it without knowledge of computer parts seek out someone for help with the components they select but nearly anyone can assemble it.
I just think when you guys go on about these used, refurbished, and at times old computers you should classify that a bit when posting them to people who know no difference. I am sure they run great, don't doubt it for a second. But my mother has a $400 HP computer that never needs rebooted either... doesn't mean it's awesome ;)
'not sure what you are implying here, that I don't know what I am doing with computers? If the size of the business and the cost of the toys is your reference stick, I could probably beat your buddy at one point in time. I left that industry by choice, not necessity.
The units I suggested are not top of the line, that was never the request. Tom was looking for something that will run his software trouble free and not be slow. Bang for the buck, it's what I would be buying (and would upgrade the RAM). If more speed is needed, he could upgrade to SSD and he would be within 10% of the speed of the fastest boxes out there for a fraction of the money. That to me is common sense purchase. . .
pierre
pierre
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I agree to a certain extent, though unless you are building a pretty low end machine, that $200-400 is more like $600-800+ in my experience. For a basic computer that will run Office and lets you browse the internet, sure go for the prebuilt if you have no experience. For something with ample power to run Adobe without any slowdowns, render the odd video or 3D model, or truly multitask, you are going to spend a lot more on a prebuilt. Hell, if you don't want to build it yourself, buy the parts and pay a flat fee for someone like Gilligan to put it together.
The system that Pierre pointed out only cost $685... I don't see how you can build a system like that and SAVE $600-800+ unless those parts fell off the back of a truck. :p
That computer is a low end computer, so as I mentioned you could save $200-400 by building vs purchasing. It's hard to tell from that site exactly which components are being used, but aside from the processor, the computer is pretty low end all around. The video card would be an awful choice/value if you were building your own for example. No info at all on the mobo, lowest spec RAM around, etc. Doing some quick pcpartpicker checking on the components you can look up, and inflating the price a bit to account for the case and peripherals and shipping, you would easily come in under $450 for that computer building it yourself, and half of that is just the CPU. Like I said earlier, most prebuilts will have one or two components that make it look like a good deal, but will skimp on the other stuff.
We had 19 workstations, 2 servers, and 14 laptops at my old job, and over the 5+ years I worked there, they used Dell and then Lenovo during the one major upgrade. For them the warranties and "service" made the extra expense worth it. For me, I spend more time dealing with horrible service and dumbass techs and uninstalling bloatware than I thought was worth it, shrug.
you need to redo your math. OS is $150 and the cpu is$250. That's $400 before anything else. The video card is Adobe certified (which in Tom's case might not matter since he is running Corel), so before the RAM, case, power supply, dvd drive, mouse, keyboard and the rest of the parts, you are already at what they charge. Plus you get support (which might not mean anything to you, but I'd rather somebody else work on it and concentrate on the business, plus Tom, for all we know does not have those skills).
pierre
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We've debate the finer points of building your own before and from what I know, Gilligan and myself are the only two that did (or in his case still do) work with computers for living. I also have a computer engineering background and at one point could design the chips going into the motherboard. Also was an IBM partner and had 12K square feet of computers and parts in the warehouse, 3 levels high. Before that, I set up repair departments for computer resale shops. Before that, I owned a computer networking company servicing local cities and corporate clients. All of this to give some perspective on where I am coming from.
pierre
My buddy's kid has a Phd, thinks he's the smartest guy in the world. His dad was a firefighter before opening his now several million dollar a year business which he creates/invents/builds machines. His kid gets offended when people suggest his dad is a engineer because he has no degree to back it up. The kid calls his dad at best a inventor. The kid works for his dad. The kid drives a Jeep to work, his dad drives a Ferrari. ;)
Another fun story is my artist used to be in the offset printing world. He took classes in college taught by a professor who knew it all, had all the experience to back it up and the resume that seemed to tell the story. Until you considered he failed at 3 prior printing businesses and hasn't owned one in over a decade but is some how an expert on printing today. My employee was already working part time while in school for a offset printer and suggested he learned nothing in that class that was relevant to how a print shop runs at that current period and it's no wonder his businesses failed.
A monkey can build a stable computer. Id suggest anyone considering it without knowledge of computer parts seek out someone for help with the components they select but nearly anyone can assemble it.
I just think when you guys go on about these used, refurbished, and at times old computers you should classify that a bit when posting them to people who know no difference. I am sure they run great, don't doubt it for a second. But my mother has a $400 HP computer that never needs rebooted either... doesn't mean it's awesome ;)
'not sure what you are implying here, that I don't know what I am doing with computers? If the size of the business and the cost of the toys is your reference stick, I could probably beat your buddy at one point in time. I left that industry by choice, not necessity.
The units I suggested are not top of the line, that was never the request. Tom was looking for something that will run his software trouble free and not be slow. Bang for the buck, it's what I would be buying (and would upgrade the RAM). If more speed is needed, he could upgrade to SSD and he would be within 10% of the speed of the fastest boxes out there for a fraction of the money. That to me is common sense purchase. . .
pierre
pierre
On this end it seemed by you listing your background that maybe you believe or want to make it seem the rest of us don't know anything about this subject. I am suggesting that just because someone did something for a living doesn't always mean they are some sort of expert or know everything they are talking about. You may or may not be. In the tech world a few months out of that business and the landscape starts changing, a few years is like a life time. Somewhere some guy is pushing screen print "paint" and curing it in his oven at home and someone paid him for it. Shall we line up for advice? I dunno. I am sure you are knowledgeable but I just see you push those links a bit hard and I think its a bit over the top for what I see there in MANY cases.
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I 100% agree with you that you can save money by building yourself... but some would rather spend the extra 200-400 and be done with it. That's how I make my living.
I agree to a certain extent, though unless you are building a pretty low end machine, that $200-400 is more like $600-800+ in my experience.
The system that Pierre pointed out only cost $685... I don't see how you can build a system like that and SAVE $600-800+ unless those parts fell off the back of a truck. :p
That computer is a low end computer, so as I mentioned you could save $200-400 by building vs purchasing.
Just putting our full conversation into the circular context that it is. :D
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We've debate the finer points of building your own before and from what I know, Gilligan and myself are the only two that did (or in his case still do) work with computers for living. I also have a computer engineering background and at one point could design the chips going into the motherboard. Also was an IBM partner and had 12K square feet of computers and parts in the warehouse, 3 levels high. Before that, I set up repair departments for computer resale shops. Before that, I owned a computer networking company servicing local cities and corporate clients. All of this to give some perspective on where I am coming from.
pierre
My buddy's kid has a Phd, thinks he's the smartest guy in the world. His dad was a firefighter before opening his now several million dollar a year business which he creates/invents/builds machines. His kid gets offended when people suggest his dad is a engineer because he has no degree to back it up. The kid calls his dad at best a inventor. The kid works for his dad. The kid drives a Jeep to work, his dad drives a Ferrari. ;)
Another fun story is my artist used to be in the offset printing world. He took classes in college taught by a professor who knew it all, had all the experience to back it up and the resume that seemed to tell the story. Until you considered he failed at 3 prior printing businesses and hasn't owned one in over a decade but is some how an expert on printing today. My employee was already working part time while in school for a offset printer and suggested he learned nothing in that class that was relevant to how a print shop runs at that current period and it's no wonder his businesses failed.
A monkey can build a stable computer. Id suggest anyone considering it without knowledge of computer parts seek out someone for help with the components they select but nearly anyone can assemble it.
I just think when you guys go on about these used, refurbished, and at times old computers you should classify that a bit when posting them to people who know no difference. I am sure they run great, don't doubt it for a second. But my mother has a $400 HP computer that never needs rebooted either... doesn't mean it's awesome ;)
I must be missing something.... So the kids wrong? or Is the dad surrounding himself with the skillset he needs (like H/Ford), The Ferrari is better than a Jeep, so that's whats making his dad so awesome? (My dad was pretty awesome, but he drove a station wagon), And your moms 400.00 HP probably not a bad computer, most likely it would even push p/s through without even getting warm, so we need a monkey?... What?
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We've debate the finer points of building your own before and from what I know, Gilligan and myself are the only two that did (or in his case still do) work with computers for living. I also have a computer engineering background and at one point could design the chips going into the motherboard. Also was an IBM partner and had 12K square feet of computers and parts in the warehouse, 3 levels high. Before that, I set up repair departments for computer resale shops. Before that, I owned a computer networking company servicing local cities and corporate clients. All of this to give some perspective on where I am coming from.
pierre
My buddy's kid has a Phd, thinks he's the smartest guy in the world. His dad was a firefighter before opening his now several million dollar a year business which he creates/invents/builds machines. His kid gets offended when people suggest his dad is a engineer because he has no degree to back it up. The kid calls his dad at best a inventor. The kid works for his dad. The kid drives a Jeep to work, his dad drives a Ferrari. ;)
Another fun story is my artist used to be in the offset printing world. He took classes in college taught by a professor who knew it all, had all the experience to back it up and the resume that seemed to tell the story. Until you considered he failed at 3 prior printing businesses and hasn't owned one in over a decade but is some how an expert on printing today. My employee was already working part time while in school for a offset printer and suggested he learned nothing in that class that was relevant to how a print shop runs at that current period and it's no wonder his businesses failed.
A monkey can build a stable computer. Id suggest anyone considering it without knowledge of computer parts seek out someone for help with the components they select but nearly anyone can assemble it.
I just think when you guys go on about these used, refurbished, and at times old computers you should classify that a bit when posting them to people who know no difference. I am sure they run great, don't doubt it for a second. But my mother has a $400 HP computer that never needs rebooted either... doesn't mean it's awesome ;)
I must be missing something.... So the kids wrong? or Is the dad surrounding himself with the skillset he needs (like H/Ford), The Ferrari is better than a Jeep, so that's whats making his dad so awesome? (My dad was pretty awesome, but he drove a station wagon), And your moms 400.00 HP probably not a bad computer, most likely it would even push p/s through without even getting warm, so we need a monkey?... What?
The kid believes because he has a Phd and was taught and earned a engineering degree that he is smarter than his dad who is self taught and has no degree. But interestingly his dad created and invented all of their products prior to his son joining the company. The point is not everyone with a degree or even some cases experience has all of the answers. His dad is awesome because he decided it wasn't that hard to figure out how to build products without being an engineer and its made him millions. His son talks about how smart he is a lot without anything to show for it ;)
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"(which might not mean anything to you, but I'd rather somebody else work on it and concentrate on the business, plus Tom, for all we know does not have those skills). pierre"
No...Tom does not have these skills. I've purchase two customs before and they both worked fine right up until the moment they no longer did. We just got one of them back up and running today after finding the driver and OS disc's. Did a format and clean install. Took half the day to get everything going, but it's up and running. We'll mess with the other one another day. My problem with building one myself is that I wouldn't have any idea of what to buy. I know that you have to match parts up to the motherboard and so on and what not and to be honest, I don't want to spend X amount of money putting something together only to find it not working when I hit that power button. So for now I'll muddle through with what I have and upgrade when I can. As much as I'd love to learn a new skill, there's days here that still kick my ass and I've been learning for 15 years. :-) Thanks for all the input!
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Without knowing the principals I could see that, A phd in engineering However isn't really considered underachievement, (especially in todays computer age job market) Engineering requires a lot of disciplines all pointing at perfection as far as a product goes. FWIW, I myself am self taught, make my own equipment, and never even finished High school, But that fact has driven me to better myself. (I drive a Camaro, does that count?)....As for the problem at hand, OP, Newegg has some really cool kits as far as building systems. Its not really that hard once you know what you need. And most hacker sites have a "computer corner" for tech.
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Without knowing the principals I could see that, A phd in engineering However isn't really considered underachievement, (especially in todays computer age job market) Engineering requires a lot of disciplines all pointing at perfection as far as a product goes. FWIW, I myself am self taught, make my own equipment, and never even finished High school, But that fact has driven me to better myself. (I drive a Camaro, does that count?)....As for the problem at hand, OP, Newegg has some really cool kits as far as building systems. Its not really that hard once you know what you need. And most hacker sites have a "computer corner" for tech.
Drive what ever you want, my point about what he drives is his kid talks a big big game and hes got a degree to suggest he knows what he is doing. But his dad is the one actually not talking much just doing, I just find it interesting and you see examples like that all over life. His kid is real smart and if he ever stops talking about being so smart he may be able to make them both more money. ;)
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I've seen "experienced" computer guys come in and not properly install RAM chips (not seated fully)... so yes it's easy, but there are sometimes subtleties that these guys rather not futz with.
*Obviously those guys weren't experienced in building computers. ;)
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I built my dream machine for 2k and would never buy a computer again after building this machine. It teaches you a lot plus I am able to have a machine that would cost 8k+ via mac but for a lot less. Also it taught me how to support my machine when it does have problems but to be honest its been pretty problem less. Plus a got a case that can run up to 9 hard drives and has enough space to liquid cool the system so I can juice it when I need more power through a motherboard function built into the bios. It took me about 12 hours to do the build and get it running smooth. I did have a lot to hook up with the cooling system and hard drives but it was pretty much plug in and read. PC parts picker is a the solution to your problems. Also if you go into frys and talk with the computer guys in the build section they will guide you the way of the best build. I did research my build for about 3 months while procuring parts since the pc part market goes up and down so much. PC parts picker helps you track that so when a good deal comes you can get it. I would say if you have a 1k or more to build your own and if not buy from a manufacture but it will not be the newest and greatest. We did recently get a used mac since we just need a computer for invoicing and email which is fine for simple graphics processing but since I work in 24x36 at 720dpi sometimes I needed to build a rig that could handle my creative side since I started draw all digitally now..... Wish you luck in your choices.
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"(which might not mean anything to you, but I'd rather somebody else work on it and concentrate on the business, plus Tom, for all we know does not have those skills). pierre"
No...Tom does not have these skills. I've purchase two customs before and they both worked fine right up until the moment they no longer did. We just got one of them back up and running today after finding the driver and OS disc's. Did a format and clean install. Took half the day to get everything going, but it's up and running. We'll mess with the other one another day. My problem with building one myself is that I wouldn't have any idea of what to buy. I know that you have to match parts up to the motherboard and so on and what not and to be honest, I don't want to spend X amount of money putting something together only to find it not working when I hit that power button. So for now I'll muddle through with what I have and upgrade when I can. As much as I'd love to learn a new skill, there's days here that still kick my ass and I've been learning for 15 years. :-) Thanks for all the input!
just an fyi, pcpartspicker handles the compatibility stuff for you. If you pick a component, it will only show you options that are compatible as you continue to add pieces. if you decide to upgrade or change a piece in your build, it will point out compatability issues for you that you can then fix.