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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: XG Print on January 15, 2016, 09:51:37 AM
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I am going to buy an auto this spring Lord willing and I am down to 2 choices. Either an 8/10 Workhorse Cutless (Basically a Sabre with Air heads is what I understand) or the M&R Diamondback. All things being equal I feel confident that I will get excellent service with both because the Workhorse dealer where I would buy, I have no doubt would be extremely helpful and M&R is well M&R. Is there anything that I can or can't do on one versus the other? Is one easier to operate. I do like the operating system on the Workhorse because I have capability to remotely view whats going on in the shop. Really big decision and I just mainly want to be sure that I can do everything on one that I can on the other. Also one factor may be the availability with M&R as I know they are running behind with the move but Workhorse may be a while getting these rolling as well so who knows? Any help is much appreciated guys!
Thanks
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I would honestly look at a servo head. After running an all air press and a servo press, I prefer the servo.
Other than that, either would be fine choices. They each have their pros and cons.
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diamond back doesn't come with electric heads, but its good, I think you are not far from me, if you want to come visit my shop I can tell you everything you would want to know about the dback or a bigger press, I have both.
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I would skip both and get a all servo press. If you are already on the "get a auto" path, a few more bucks now you will be thanking yourself a lot later on.
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I would also look at the MHM Evo SA or the less expensive S Roque as these have a better registration system.
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I would skip both and get a all servo press. If you are already on the "get a auto" path, a few more bucks now you will be thanking yourself a lot later on.
I was wondering about that. I know the Sportsman and Sabre would cost a little bit more but there is that much difference? Hmmm may need to go that route. May be a dumb question but I would still need a smaller compressor to run a Sabre or Sportsman correct?
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i am a workhorse guy and would go workhorse. love the machine and the customer service.
but either press would do whatever you may need IMO
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diamond back doesn't come with electric heads, but its good, I think you are not far from me, if you want to come visit my shop I can tell you everything you would want to know about the dback or a bigger press, I have both.
I may take you up on that. I would love to see these in a real production setting as opposed to the show where everything is running jam up.
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I would skip both and get a all servo press. If you are already on the "get a auto" path, a few more bucks now you will be thanking yourself a lot later on.
I was wondering about that. I know the Sportsman and Sabre would cost a little bit more but there is that much difference? Hmmm may need to go that route. May be a dumb question but I would still need a smaller compressor to run a Sabre or Sportsman correct?
Yes you will notice differences between air and servo. You will also need a smaller compressor than you would if it was all air machine. I would not buy a all air machine personally. I would also do everything in your power to by a bigger machine than you think you need. If you think a 8/10 is bare minimum id buy a 10/12 or 12/14. Little money now will save you doing it twice.
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I agree with that the decision should be between the Sabre and the Sportsman. You won't regret electric printheads.
We ultimately chose the Sabre over the Sportsman, but both are excellent presses and you wouldn't regret either.
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one bonus of the workhorse presses is the ability to use flashbacks. while they're not right for everybody, they do have their uses, and in a smaller shop, especially one with a single operator, it's a great solution to not having to run many jobs in revolver mode, as well as freeing up print heads.
I echo what everybody else is saying about getting a AC head press over air-driven print heads...
spend the extra $$$, you'll be VERY happy you did.
air presses can be finicky, especially on thick/cold white ink.
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I agree with that the decision should be between the Sabre and the Sportsman. You won't regret electric printheads.
We ultimately chose the Sabre over the Sportsman, but both are excellent presses and you wouldn't regret either.
^^ same as this guy.
one bonus of the workhorse presses is the ability to use flashbacks. while they're not right for everybody, they do have their uses, and in a smaller shop, especially one with a single operator, it's a great solution to not having to run many jobs in revolver mode, as well as freeing up print heads.
I echo what everybody else is saying about getting a AC head press over air-driven print heads...
spend the extra $$$, you'll be VERY happy you did.
air presses can be finicky, especially on thick/cold white ink.
Ditto what this guy said... Flash backs are AWESOME... rarely have we ever sat there thinking "if we had a regular flash this would be better"... Now, we have said "Maybe we should get a 2nd flash back" because we would rather flash a 2nd time and we HATE revolving as that REALLY slows down production. We just don't really have the power in this shop. But as soon as we move, we will likely get a 2nd flash back.
Let me know if you have any other questions about the Sabre, we love ours!
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Revolving def slows things down, but so do flash backs. Neither are best practices. Both can help you put a band-aid on not having enough heads/flashes.
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i agee flashbacks are awesome, wish I had a second as well. will have one in near future. and to me a flashback is not a band-aid at all.
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Some old timers would say even flashes are a band aid.
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i agee flashbacks are awesome, wish I had a second as well. will have one in near future. and to me a flashback is not a band-aid at all.
Whats the max dz per hour you print at while flashing a full size image 15x17 inches? I know when I watched flashbacks in action it was like watching paint dry. Much like revolver.
Some old timers would say even flashes are a band aid.
Also true ;D
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Some old timers would say even flashes are a band aid.
hahahahahahaahahah
My vote, if you can, go for a unit with servo index, and a/c heads. Also consider support. Consider that big time. Not to mention, resale value ect. Lots to consider for the first time, but if I had the first time to go over again. I'd go a/c heads, sevo index, and as many print heads as possible. By the way, did I mention, our new GT3 14 color is sick, insane, and friggin awesome!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D So glad we stayed with M&R, the attention they have given us has been awesome!
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i agee flashbacks are awesome, wish I had a second as well. will have one in near future. and to me a flashback is not a band-aid at all.
Whats the max dz per hour you print at while flashing a full size image 15x17 inches? I know when I watched flashbacks in action it was like watching paint dry. Much like revolver.
Some old timers would say even flashes are a band aid.
when i print and catch alone doing a large flash average print size 12x12 it is just at 150 pieces per hour(12 dozen) when not flashing 300 pieces (25 dozen) with the flash going full stroke I am able to load a shirts and catch each piece coming out of the end of the dryer(nothing falls in the box)(small walk to back of dryer to the load station 8 steps) the above numbers are for print/flash/print/flash. we are a small auto shop 1 printer and 1 cleaner. we do more smaller jobs than 300 pieces or more jobs. so the flashback does not slow us down. but if you are a larger shop or do more larger orders then yes the flashback will create some issues on time. so just going big on the press is not always the right fit for each business. all depends on the number of employees which you are going to use to run the machine and the size jobs your shop normally prints.
side not our dryer is rated for 36 dozen per hour.
for me I like the air rather than electric. reason is for me and my brain it is easier to fix/find local parts for the air components. where some of the stuff which can go wrong on the electric well i would need to find a local supplier which is not available (small market )
Also true ;D
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when i print and catch alone doing a large flash average print size 12x12 it is just at 150 pieces per hour(12 dozen) when not flashing 300 pieces (25 dozen) with the flash going full stroke I am able to load a shirts and catch each piece coming out of the end of the dryer(nothing falls in the box)(small walk to back of dryer to the load station 8 steps) the above numbers are for print/flash/print/flash. we are a small auto shop 1 printer and 1 cleaner. we do more smaller jobs than 300 pieces or more jobs. so the flashback does not slow us down. but if you are a larger shop or do more larger orders then yes the flashback will create some issues on time. so just going big on the press is not always the right fit for each business. all depends on the number of employees which you are going to use to run the machine and the size jobs your shop normally prints.
side not our dryer is rated for 36 dozen per hour.
for me I like the air rather than electric. reason is for me and my brain it is easier to fix/find local parts for the air components. where some of the stuff which can go wrong on the electric well i would need to find a local supplier which is not available (small market )
Also true ;D
Sounds like it is right for your shop now... id agree with you. What about in 5 years? What if you need to start pumping out work, those flash backs and that dryer are going to be holding you back sounds like. I think the idea of a auto for most is to increase capacity as well as making it a bit less hard than printing manually. If you can unload/load/walk to back of the dryer and be ready for the next pallet in the time it takes the flash back that is SUPER slow. That seems like a band-aid in that context. A stand alone flash on a print flash print and you'd be lucky to be able to load/unload in the time it took to flash. Just saying.
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when i print and catch alone doing a large flash average print size 12x12 it is just at 150 pieces per hour(12 dozen) when not flashing 300 pieces (25 dozen) with the flash going full stroke I am able to load a shirts and catch each piece coming out of the end of the dryer(nothing falls in the box)(small walk to back of dryer to the load station 8 steps) the above numbers are for print/flash/print/flash. we are a small auto shop 1 printer and 1 cleaner. we do more smaller jobs than 300 pieces or more jobs. so the flashback does not slow us down. but if you are a larger shop or do more larger orders then yes the flashback will create some issues on time. so just going big on the press is not always the right fit for each business. all depends on the number of employees which you are going to use to run the machine and the size jobs your shop normally prints.
side not our dryer is rated for 36 dozen per hour.
for me I like the air rather than electric. reason is for me and my brain it is easier to fix/find local parts for the air components. where some of the stuff which can go wrong on the electric well i would need to find a local supplier which is not available (small market )
Also true ;D
Sounds like it is right for your shop now... id agree with you. What about in 5 years? What if you need to start pumping out work, those flash backs and that dryer are going to be holding you back sounds like. I think the idea of a auto for most is to increase capacity as well as making it a bit less hard than printing manually. If you can unload/load/walk to back of the dryer and be ready for the next pallet in the time it takes the flash back that is SUPER slow. That seems like a band-aid in that context. A stand alone flash on a print flash print and you'd be lucky to be able to load/unload in the time it took to flash. Just saying.
I agree when we do grow then yes we would need a larger dryer and press, but we are not just a printer for tee shirts and such but rather a full cut and sew shop with embroidery and full sublimation. so for us to grow we would not be looking at the print department but rather our cut and sew full sublimation department. as this is our highest bang for the buck and the area which has the least competition honestly. those large print orders really are not the areas we wish to go after as there are already thousand of print shops which have that ability. do we get large order 1000 pieces (this is large) yes do i like doing them no..
it honestly comes down to what are you going to be printing, size orders, number of employees you are paying to run the machine, and where you want the business to grow.
for me 150 shirts per hour with p/f/p/f is not slow imo. but some may see it as turtle speed. but I would not have been able to get a 6 color 8 station press with a flash in the footprint which we have. do i wish I had a 8 color yes but no room for it and only an hand full of times do I wish i had one in the last 10 years.
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when i print and catch alone doing a large flash average print size 12x12 it is just at 150 pieces per hour(12 dozen) when not flashing 300 pieces (25 dozen) with the flash going full stroke I am able to load a shirts and catch each piece coming out of the end of the dryer(nothing falls in the box)(small walk to back of dryer to the load station 8 steps) the above numbers are for print/flash/print/flash. we are a small auto shop 1 printer and 1 cleaner. we do more smaller jobs than 300 pieces or more jobs. so the flashback does not slow us down. but if you are a larger shop or do more larger orders then yes the flashback will create some issues on time. so just going big on the press is not always the right fit for each business. all depends on the number of employees which you are going to use to run the machine and the size jobs your shop normally prints.
side not our dryer is rated for 36 dozen per hour.
for me I like the air rather than electric. reason is for me and my brain it is easier to fix/find local parts for the air components. where some of the stuff which can go wrong on the electric well i would need to find a local supplier which is not available (small market )
Also true ;D
Sounds like it is right for your shop now... id agree with you. What about in 5 years? What if you need to start pumping out work, those flash backs and that dryer are going to be holding you back sounds like. I think the idea of a auto for most is to increase capacity as well as making it a bit less hard than printing manually. If you can unload/load/walk to back of the dryer and be ready for the next pallet in the time it takes the flash back that is SUPER slow. That seems like a band-aid in that context. A stand alone flash on a print flash print and you'd be lucky to be able to load/unload in the time it took to flash. Just saying.
I agree when we do grow then yes we would need a larger dryer and press, but we are not just a printer for tee shirts and such but rather a full cut and sew shop with embroidery and full sublimation. so for us to grow we would not be looking at the print department but rather our cut and sew full sublimation department. as this is our highest bang for the buck and the area which has the least competition honestly. those large print orders really are not the areas we wish to go after as there are already thousand of print shops which have that ability. do we get large order 1000 pieces (this is large) yes do i like doing them no..
it honestly comes down to what are you going to be printing, size orders, number of employees you are paying to run the machine, and where you want the business to grow.
for me 150 shirts per hour with p/f/p/f is not slow imo. but some may see it as turtle speed. but I would not have been able to get a 6 color 8 station press with a flash in the footprint which we have. do i wish I had a 8 color yes but no room for it and only an hand full of times do I wish i had one in the last 10 years.
Nothing wrong with what you have done, you have space constraints. By band-aid I meant you've had to make a serious speed sacrifice by using flashbacks to save print heads to accommodate your space.
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I get your point but I do not think it as a sacrifice as you would not always run the auto at full speed. I would think more than likely wrong.. I mean I own a car that says it will do 120mph but i never drive it at that speed. is it great to have the power if I need it yes but not sure when i would need it. when we got our press it was not for speed but rather smarter working(less labor). really who needs the fastest printer unless you have the work and workers to run it. but i think going from a manual press to an auto most would want max colors over speed but then this is dependent on what type of shop they are wanting to be and what jobs they are wanting to get. did we sacrifice with our press yes but not for speed but rather colors is where we sacrificed. we did look at press with a dedicated flash head and the loss of the color is what kept us from that route, . good conversation though
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the major thing you have to ask yourself with the flashbacks is what kind of work are you doing.
if you're doing short run work, where you don't want to register and make multiple screens, using a flash back actually can speed matters up.
150 shirts/hour would be a snails pace for us, even when we run in revolver we're at a 'shirts produced' number around 300/hr.
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I get your point but I do not think it as a sacrifice as you would not always run the auto at full speed. I would think more than likely wrong.. I mean I own a car that says it will do 120mph but i never drive it at that speed. is it great to have the power if I need it yes but not sure when i would need it. when we got our press it was not for speed but rather smarter working(less labor). really who needs the fastest printer unless you have the work and workers to run it. but i think going from a manual press to an auto most would want max colors over speed but then this is dependent on what type of shop they are wanting to be and what jobs they are wanting to get. did we sacrifice with our press yes but not for speed but rather colors is where we sacrificed. we did look at press with a dedicated flash head and the loss of the color is what kept us from that route, . good conversation though
Well why do you have a car that will go 120 then if you will never drive it that fast? You do not have to run a press at its max, never said that at all. Nobody here does that. But why have a machine be the limitation is what I would argue.
Another way to look at it is your machine purchases should always be with the future in mind. If it isn't then often you will find it to be a limitation and cost you money later. 150pcs a hour is manual speed to be honest with you, but yes it would be easier to do on a auto than a manual and I am first to admit id never have a manual again. Yes as I said in the previous post you had space issues which is why you picked a press with in head flashes. The trade off to that is speed. Many operators can run 350-500pcs a hour alone on a auto (loading and unloading). So one could say your space is costing you 200pcs a hour at least. Do the math on that over a year, 5 years, 10 years, or whatever the life of that press is. You could buy a very nice building/bigger space for the difference in that output.
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missing my point. if you do not have jobs everyday with 500 pieces or more why do you need to go so fast. we do teams mostly well those are 36 pieces or less runs. so i do not need the 500 or 300 count speed. look at it like this if you are only going couple of hundred feet no reason to go 80 mph hour. did we think of growth when we got it 10 years ago yes, did we grow with it yes, do we still have more growth room with this press yes.
you must have the work load to print 500 pieces an hour or 300 an hour. i mean if a shop prints 800 shirts per week and are limited by space then why go for speed. cause you still have to pay the workers and at even 300 an hour that would mean your worker is only getting part time work.
it depends on what your business is setup to do and what market you want to go with. me I rather print a $18/$25 jersey out the door shirt rather than a $4 tee shirt. My margin is much larger on that $18/$25 jersey rather than that $4/$5 tee shirt. we are not a screen print business but rather a sport team business concentrating on teams and smaller orders which the other shops pass cause it does not meet the minimum.
in this last year for example i can think of about 7 or 8 jobs which had more than 300 pieces, and 1 which had more than 1000. but we still had close to 45,000 imprints on our auto. so it works to about 800/900 shirt per week. with our flashback we do not have to set up the second screen nor do we use revolver mode. it works for us in this model of team sports.
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missing my point. if you do not have jobs everyday with 500 pieces or more why do you need to go so fast. we do teams mostly well those are 36 pieces or less runs. so i do not need the 500 or 300 count speed. look at it like this if you are only going couple of hundred feet no reason to go 80 mph hour. did we think of growth when we got it 10 years ago yes, did we grow with it yes, do we still have more growth room with this press yes.
Well I can think of one reason, if you print them faster that employee or you could be doing something else with the same labor hours. Thus reducing your labor costs. Going slower just to go slower may not be the best thing for your business.
you must have the work load to print 500 pieces an hour or 300 an hour. i mean if a shop prints 800 shirts per week and are limited by space then why go for speed. cause you still have to pay the workers and at even 300 an hour that would mean your worker is only getting part time work.
If we didn't have the work we'd find something for them to do in our other departments. We have only sent our employees home early maybe 2-3 times since 2012.
it depends on what your business is setup to do and what market you want to go with. me I rather print a $18/$25 jersey out the door shirt rather than a $4 tee shirt. My margin is much larger on that $18/$25 jersey rather than that $4/$5 tee shirt. we are not a screen print business but rather a sport team business concentrating on teams and smaller orders which the other shops pass cause it does not meet the minimum.
Margins are great, print whatever you like nobody is telling you not to. I am just pointing out your flashbacks/space are costing you speed. Which does cost you labor. You could ahve that employee run 600pcs a hour on that same press and be done 4x faster and help you with another process in your shop. If its you it would open you up to doing other things in the business. If you are the owner take half the day off if there is nothing to do. How much is your time worth? What is your margin on a $18/25 jersey? I am curious?
in this last year for example i can think of about 7 or 8 jobs which had more than 300 pieces, and 1 which had more than 1000. but we still had close to 45,000 imprints on our auto. so it works to about 800/900 shirt per week. with our flashback we do not have to set up the second screen nor do we use revolver mode. it works for us in this model of team sports.
We print orders as small as 24pcs, so size of job doesn't really matter much to us. We do a bunch of orders that are 24-48pcs that are 5-6-7-8 color per side, pretty great margin in those jobs.
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well we agree to disagree for sure.
I would never get rid of our flashback unless we started doing large volume tees. as the OP was wondering which machine to go with. for me i like workhorse products and service. never had m&r equipment so i cannot say anything about them.
Oh an I would love to see someone (1 person) printing a 12x12 full color logo with print flash print flash on a white screen and wow on the other 5 colors on a manual at 150 pieces per hour, with the ability to catch every shirt the way we do it with our auto. we do have a manual and not happening just saying not 1 person.
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um. why buy an auto if you never see yourself producing more than 150 shirts an hour. Any shop with an auto should want to see a 350-450 per hour rate, or just buy a large color count manual press. I mean, if you plan to grow and produce. I couldn't justify that, but then again, when we got our first auto I just didn't want to pull a squeegee anymore. It only took a month of running it to know it only made sense to produce a no less than 300 per hour, but I guess everyone has their own vision for where they want their shop to go.
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oh and another little thing that we can do if needed. we can also flip our outside clap head up and insert a manual flash into 1 of 5 heads and print the same as you do. been there done that. so we do have a little more versatility in that respect of having a flashback or emptying a print head and inserting a manual. also with the flashbacks if you have a second you can always put it in a head and have it work the same as the other autos flashing while other heads are printing. you do lose the printing capability on that head but so do other autos with there dedicated flashes
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um. why buy an auto if you never see yourself producing more than 150 shirts an hour. Any shop with an auto should want to see a 350-450 per hour rate, or just buy a large color count manual press. I mean, if you plan to grow and produce. I couldn't justify that, but then again, when we got our first auto I just didn't want to pull a squeegee anymore. It only took a month of running it to know it only made sense to produce a no less than 300 per hour, but I guess everyone has their own vision for where they want their shop to go.
can we print the same as other autos with a dedicated flash head yes. then are machine would be a 5 color 8 station.
i do not get why we look at speed and only speed. i mean if average job is 36 pieces then you tell me when you could say i printed them at 300 pieces per hour. cause really it is only 36 pieces that is it. unless you say well if that job was 500 then we would have done it at this speed. heck i just printed 1 shirt in 30 seconds, set up and print done so i did 120 shirts per hour?
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let me ask the non flashback autos guys. if you had a 36 piece job which is a 1 color print (white ink) on a black tee.
a) burn 2 screens white in both with flash station in middle of them?
b) burn 1 screen and print in revolver mode
me
c) 1 screen head in station 1 which has the flashback and i would print flash print and go.
which of the 3 methods is faster and more cost effective. the way i see it (a) has double screens double squeegees and flood bars. (b) the shirt makes 2 trips around. (c) 1 trip, 1 screen and just a 4 second flash delay.
(a) cost more cause double materials
(b) i think time would be longer than (c)
(c) same cost as (b) and a little more time than (a)
don't forget burn time, tape, set up, line up and clean/reclaim time is all figured into the job costs as well.
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whether you use a flashback , or send it around twice with a standard flash - your likely looking at the same amount of time.
small jobs(36 and under) 1 screen
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let me ask the non flashback autos guys. if you had a 36 piece job which is a 1 color print (white ink) on a black tee.
a) burn 2 screens white in both with flash station in middle of them?
b) burn 1 screen and print in revolver mode
me
c) 1 screen head in station 1 which has the flashback and i would print flash print and go.
which of the 3 methods is faster and more cost effective. the way i see it (a) has double screens double squeegees and flood bars. (b) the shirt makes 2 trips around. (c) 1 trip, 1 screen and just a 4 second flash delay.
(a) cost more cause double materials
(b) i think time would be longer than (c)
(c) same cost as (b) and a little more time than (a)
don't forget burn time, tape, set up, line up and clean/reclaim time is all figured into the job costs as well.
We do lots and lots of these small runs. always double the screen if it's just say, white on a black shirt that you want to pfp. At the end of the day, say 15 orders with similar ideas, or a highlight white in a multi color job. the few extra screens at the end of the day, at say $1 per screen in emulsion cost if even that is worth the time when you are producing that many orders a day. Maybe if it's only a few jobs a day, or your week isn't filled up enough that you are doing a couple jobs a day like that, I can see only 1 screen, I do it from time to time, but, but, but, time is worth more money than shooting a highlight screen any day of the week. Depends on your system too, how you coat, what type of emulsion you use, whether you are cts, film, vellum, ect. I would still burn two whites rather than revolve. The only times we realy, had had had to run revolver is when the color counts were maxing out our press and we needed the extra flashing to have the desired finish that the customer would want, say on 8 colors. But now with a 14 color press, revolver is pretty much a thing of the past , but even still, on the GT3 running revolver you can still have a production speed of 400 per hour. Did one last week that was time sensitive and I didn't have the clock to change the customer's seps so we just ran the 2nd revolution and the production speed was 424. Those Red Chili D flashes, once boards are hot are flashing like 1.5 seconds, pretty nice, they measure the temp so if we forget to change the quartz time on the controller they auto regulate themselves. I got the hint long time ago from Greg Kitson that when your plate starts to fill up, even small jobs, the second screen on a white pfp is a small small sacrifice for the speed of the clock.
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let me ask the non flashback autos guys. if you had a 36 piece job which is a 1 color print (white ink) on a black tee.
a) burn 2 screens white in both with flash station in middle of them?
b) burn 1 screen and print in revolver mode
me
c) 1 screen head in station 1 which has the flashback and i would print flash print and go.
which of the 3 methods is faster and more cost effective. the way i see it (a) has double screens double squeegees and flood bars. (b) the shirt makes 2 trips around. (c) 1 trip, 1 screen and just a 4 second flash delay.
(a) cost more cause double materials
(b) i think time would be longer than (c)
(c) same cost as (b) and a little more time than (a)
don't forget burn time, tape, set up, line up and clean/reclaim time is all figured into the job costs as well.
Depends on the situation really. We have done it both ways on super small jobs like that. Interestingly many jobs we have small like that will be like 24pcs white ink, 24 more black, etc. So the answer changes a bit in those cases.
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let me ask the non flashback autos guys. if you had a 36 piece job which is a 1 color print (white ink) on a black tee.
a) burn 2 screens white in both with flash station in middle of them?
b) burn 1 screen and print in revolver mode
me
c) 1 screen head in station 1 which has the flashback and i would print flash print and go.
which of the 3 methods is faster and more cost effective. the way i see it (a) has double screens double squeegees and flood bars. (b) the shirt makes 2 trips around. (c) 1 trip, 1 screen and just a 4 second flash delay.
(a) cost more cause double materials
(b) i think time would be longer than (c)
(c) same cost as (b) and a little more time than (a)
don't forget burn time, tape, set up, line up and clean/reclaim time is all figured into the job costs as well.
My first auto was a workhorse tuff w/ 2 flashbacks...... For a long time I was convinced that the tuff could do a 1 color pfpf faster then revolve mode on another machine until I put an m&r right next to my tuff. Once I did that I realized that revolve mode is MUCH faster then flashback flashes. Sold my tuff/flashbacks as the flashbacks caused us more slowdowns(heating the screen/drying the ink) then it was worth for me.
But your scenario above, 36 pcs we would print 1 screen and do 2 revolutions on the machine
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i see your point screenprintguy with the second screen. yes it is faster and yes it would be nice but the other factors are
1 guy that burns, 1 guy preps screens, 1 guy prints, 1 guy catches, 1 guy folds and box, 1 guy cleans/reclaim screen, 1 guy coating screens(not cts)
and that 1 guy is only 1 person. to me doing the 1 screen with flashback or revolver would beat the 2 screen system anytime given the real word(my shop) parameters. given the extra time to burn/prep/lineup/clean/reclaim that second screen.
maybe wrong most of the time i am....
i also one of those guys which love the v squeegee which most seam to dislike.
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let me ask the non flashback autos guys. if you had a 36 piece job which is a 1 color print (white ink) on a black tee.
a) burn 2 screens white in both with flash station in middle of them?
b) burn 1 screen and print in revolver mode
me
c) 1 screen head in station 1 which has the flashback and i would print flash print and go.
which of the 3 methods is faster and more cost effective. the way i see it (a) has double screens double squeegees and flood bars. (b) the shirt makes 2 trips around. (c) 1 trip, 1 screen and just a 4 second flash delay.
(a) cost more cause double materials
(b) i think time would be longer than (c)
(c) same cost as (b) and a little more time than (a)
don't forget burn time, tape, set up, line up and clean/reclaim time is all figured into the job costs as well.
My first auto was a workhorse tuff w/ 2 flashbacks...... For a long time I was convinced that the tuff could do a 1 color pfpf faster then revolve mode on another machine until I put an m&r right next to my tuff. Once I did that I realized that revolve mode is MUCH faster then flashback flashes. Sold my tuff/flashbacks as the flashbacks caused us more slowdowns(heating the screen/drying the ink) then it was worth for me.
But your scenario above, 36 pcs we would print 1 screen and do 2 revolutions on the machine
i have never had issues with the flashback and screen heating and drying the ink. well i say never in the first year yes but once i was proficient with it does not happen. have heard a number of people though with that same complaint though so it no unusual but it not the norm either.
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We have found that running Orbital (Workhorse's Revolver) is on average 2-3/dz/hr faster than running the Flashback. But it depends on the print really.
I really like the Flashback. But I also understand it's not for everyone, or for every job.
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We have found that running Orbital (Workhorse's Revolver) is on average 2-3/dz/hr faster than running the Flashback. But it depends on the print really.
I really like the Flashback. But I also understand it's not for everyone, or for every job.
That's what most running the flash backs have said is that often the flash back was slower than going around twice. We barely ever run Revolver anymore, but the CH3D indexs so fast that going around 2 times is not 2x as long to do the job I can tell you that.
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I haven't ran a diamondback or cutlass but we have a Sportsman and while it's listed as a mid level press, I would consider it an entry level machine. I can't imagine working with less for doing anything but very basic work with low registration requirements. Just some food for thought that what others are satisfied with at "entry level" may not fit your expectations. Not a knock on those machines, they are what they are- affordable!
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The flash back isn't so bad at all.
We don't run PFPF unless we are printing white in the design and it's a short run. If it's larger we will run a white screen.
What if you are doing MAX colors with white in the design? You can't revolve that, you lost your head to the flash. With a flash back you didn't lose that head. You can technically run multiple flashes and still keep it a true 6 color machine. For some shops, you have no other choice. We have a 19'x24' production area... you wouldn't want to try to squeeze an 8 color in there... so now you have a TRUE 6 color and you could run 2 flashes if you wanted.
Also you can run the FB in table up mode and put it in head 2... this allows you to run PFP just like everyone else... only thing different is the shuttling of the flash.
We ain't trying to kill no body... but we have run a LC print at 500/hour and we were new and were PFP all on head 1 vs doing it right with 2 white screens and flashing table up. That was FULL crew, load/unload/catch. We typically run with printer and catcher only... so we run just fine with the flashback.
Here is a video of my guy doing 19dz/hour on a pretty average print (we RARELY ever have someone asking for 15x17" prints... remember a while back we got a complaint that we printed TOO big!).
This is PFP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NsUISOkMy4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NsUISOkMy4)
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Here is a video of my guy doing 19dz/hour on a pretty average print (we RARELY ever have someone asking for 15x17" prints... remember a while back we got a complaint that we printed TOO big!).
This is PFP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NsUISOkMy4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NsUISOkMy4)
He's got WAY too much time to stand around... :)
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LOL... I ain't trying to kill no body. :p
I just went BS and catch shirts for him... he was printing a LC and using 2 whites, flashing table up (like everyone else does)... 31dz/hour.
Easy money.
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I hate to say it, but on the small orders the workhorse freedom with flash back was usually faster than our sportsman using 1 white and sending around twice.
The delay of the flash back and reprinting the white gave the operator tons of time to unload, then load a new shirt by themselves.
That being said...the flashbacks were wayyy to damn close to the shirts, often nabbing collars or burning things that happend to be up slightly and not perfectly flat on the pallet.. We hated the V squeegees after having choppers...
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What are the price comparisons on the two units(Diamondback and Cutlass)? The user interface on the Workhorse blows the Diamondback out of the water. But if you think down the line, I'm gonna guess the Diamondback will have better resale value.
Like everyone has said, AC heads make a big difference. Worth it in my book, even more if you are in a region that gets cold.
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LOL... I ain't trying to kill no body. :p
I just went BS and catch shirts for him... he was printing a LC and using 2 whites, flashing table up (like everyone else does)... 31dz/hour.
Easy money.
Here's easy money, nearing 800pcs a hour. Casual pace.
https://www.facebook.com/138282122879494/videos/1040991322608565/ (https://www.facebook.com/138282122879494/videos/1040991322608565/)
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LOL... I ain't trying to kill no body. :p
I just went BS and catch shirts for him... he was printing a LC and using 2 whites, flashing table up (like everyone else does)... 31dz/hour.
Easy money.
Here's easy money, nearing 800pcs a hour. Casual pace.
https://www.facebook.com/138282122879494/videos/1040991322608565/ (https://www.facebook.com/138282122879494/videos/1040991322608565/)
That's a 3 employee operation. Also, that doesn't show the loader, I can unload casually all day.
My guy prints solo 95+% of the time.
The thing is, I can always get a full quartz flash for jobs that have fewer colors if I "NEED" the speed and only use the Flashback when I need to maximize colors.
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I have also been researching the small auto options. How do other brands compare at 10/8 size?
ROQ, MHM, TAS?
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LOL... I ain't trying to kill no body. :p
I just went BS and catch shirts for him... he was printing a LC and using 2 whites, flashing table up (like everyone else does)... 31dz/hour.
Easy money.
Here's easy money, nearing 800pcs a hour. Casual pace.
https://www.facebook.com/138282122879494/videos/1040991322608565/ (https://www.facebook.com/138282122879494/videos/1040991322608565/)
That's a 3 employee operation. Also, that doesn't show the loader, I can unload casually all day.
My guy prints solo 95+% of the time.
The thing is, I can always get a full quartz flash for jobs that have fewer colors if I "NEED" the speed and only use the Flashback when I need to maximize colors.
Hey captain defensive, you made a comment about easy money, I replied to it. It's ok to get a little off topic ya know. 99% of threads do. Yes it's 3 people. Shelly can load/unload at around 500pcs a hour and let the shirts hit the bucket of we wanted. I'd video that but we never do that anymore, we have too much printing to do to be running with 1 operator.
So when you are letting shirts hit the bucket are you subtracting the time needed to restack off your dozens per hour? Curious. A double sided or God forbid 3-4 location shirt falling into the bucket needed restacked a few times would be a serious time suck.
Glad you've admitted a real flash is faster with your Quartz comment. Looks like we are back to my original point. Flashbacks and revolver are not optimal. They are fixes for lack of heads or lack of physical space and that's fine. There is a trade off though. You flashback people acting like someone's kicked your dog lol.
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If you are gonna compare the MHM and Roq, you are not comparing machines in the same "class" or price range. You would put those up against a GT3(M&R) or a progressive (Workhorse) machines.
That is taking a huge step over a air machine. Especially if you didn't know if AC heads were with it....
My advice would be to find the maximum $$$$ you can afford. Then start narrowing from there.
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off the flashback discussion for a bit...
the speed of the index (and the type of printing action. heads vs tables), makes a HUGE difference in how comfortable you are at a certain speed.
on the Javelin with the air-indexer the best possible speed of the press was around 450/hr... that was absolutely maxed out, and after running that fast for a while you'd feel like you were ready to fall over and die.
on the Sportsman, the best possible speed is right around 1000/hr... at 1000/hr you are flying... but.. I can comfortably load and unload at 400/hr on this press, no problem whatsoever. With a unloader, I can comfortably run at 720/hr all day.
on a Gauntlett 3 or Challenger 3, I bet we could run even faster yet as the tables are staying in one position, and you're not 'trying to hit a moving target'
I remember a story told a few years back about a group of ladies that worked at a printshop somewhere on the east coast that were comfortably running Precision Ovals at 900/hr SOLO.
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I think again, basically what we are all saying is the choice is up to you. Some of us like different brands for different reasons.
Try to buy something with AC heads, Choppers, and Servo index if is within your reach. When you do grow into it and need 3 people for production you will be glad you have the extra speed.
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LOL... I ain't trying to kill no body. :p
I just went BS and catch shirts for him... he was printing a LC and using 2 whites, flashing table up (like everyone else does)... 31dz/hour.
Easy money.
Here's easy money, nearing 800pcs a hour. Casual pace.
https://www.facebook.com/138282122879494/videos/1040991322608565/ (https://www.facebook.com/138282122879494/videos/1040991322608565/)
That's a 3 employee operation. Also, that doesn't show the loader, I can unload casually all day.
My guy prints solo 95+% of the time.
The thing is, I can always get a full quartz flash for jobs that have fewer colors if I "NEED" the speed and only use the Flashback when I need to maximize colors.
Hey captain defensive, you made a comment about easy money, I replied to it. It's ok to get a little off topic ya know. 99% of threads do. Yes it's 3 people. Shelly can load/unload at around 500pcs a hour and let the shirts hit the bucket of we wanted. I'd video that but we never do that anymore, we have too much printing to do to be running with 1 operator.
So when you are letting shirts hit the bucket are you subtracting the time needed to restack off your dozens per hour? Curious. A double sided or God forbid 3-4 location shirt falling into the bucket needed restacked a few times would be a serious time suck.
Glad you've admitted a real flash is faster with your Quartz comment. Looks like we are back to my original point. Flashbacks and revolver are not optimal. They are fixes for lack of heads or lack of physical space and that's fine. There is a trade off though. You flashback people acting like someone's kicked your dog lol.
Is it not possible for you to participate in a discussion where you aren't trying to prove something you do is the better and only way it should be done?
I thought this was a discussion. I thought we were discussing ideas.
You are constantly pushing against anything that isn't yours. Step back sometime man... look at this thread, you have been on every post I make and then every post that even comes close to agreeing with me. I've posted like 3 times here and you are on every other post... all trying to discount real life situations that people are expressing.
Back to your apples vs rocks comparisons.
He PRINTS solo, we still have someone catching most of the time. We just don't have an unloader... there is a number between 3 and 1.
As Jason said, there are more things to printing speed than just flashback vs quartz.
I've also NEVER said quartz wasn't faster, I've just always said, it doesn't really slow us down that much and we have hardly ever found ourselves thinking "if we had a regular quartz flash, we could be printing so much faster." It's not that it isn't faster, it's that we don't NEED to be faster, we are usually doing just find. Any speed gained, would be negated by the fact that our 6 color would now be a 4 or slow 5 color if we had a standard flash.
In the end, the flashback is for smaller shops... ones with limited space looking to maximize colors. My shop would be unbearably tight if we squeezed in an 8 color. I could put 3 flashbacks in if I wanted and still print all 6 colors, with a DB I'd have to revolve 3 times AND still only be able to print 5 colors (having to be careful not to be too hot when I printed after the flash).
When we move to a new shop our plans are to get a 2nd FB... then when we get our 2nd auto it will be a 12 color and we will get "real" quartz flashes... If we are still on the Sabre platform we will definitely be keeping the flashbacks as options if we were to need them.
Options are awesome! We have revolver AND flashbacks available on the Sabre platform. :)
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Is it not possible for you to participate in a discussion where you aren't trying to prove something you do is the better and only way it should be done?
I would say the same thing to you.
I thought this was a discussion. I thought we were discussing ideas.
We are. Which is why I pointed out revolver and flash backs are band-aids in attempts to put this poster in the best press for his future. Some got all defensive about suggesting Flash Backs slow down production.
You are constantly pushing against anything that isn't yours. Step back sometime man... look at this thread, you have been on every post I make and then every post that even comes close to agreeing with me. I've posted like 3 times here and you are on every other post... all trying to discount real life situations that people are expressing.
I would say the same to you about many threads I create or participate in.
Back to your apples vs rocks comparisons.
He PRINTS solo, we still have someone catching most of the time. We just don't have an unloader... there is a number between 3 and 1.
As Jason said, there are more things to printing speed than just flashback vs quartz.
Sure is, who said there wasn't? Discuss whatever you like, I brought up a factor I think some new people don't understand kill speed. Speed to SOME (not you clearly) is important, and even when its not important today it can become important later. People should understand what they are doing when buying a press. I still maintain none of the companies do a great job on educating the customer about things like this. You really have to be deep into the sales process and asking the right questions to get details like that. The average buyer probably doesn't.
I've also NEVER said quartz wasn't faster, I've just always said, it doesn't really slow us down that much and we have hardly ever found ourselves thinking "if we had a regular quartz flash, we could be printing so much faster." It's not that it isn't faster, it's that we don't NEED to be faster, we are usually doing just find. Any speed gained, would be negated by the fact that our 6 color would now be a 4 or slow 5 color if we had a standard flash.
Great it doesn't slow you down, it would slow down many shops here, so it was worth noting as something to look out for. Sounds like your trying to sell your situation pretty hard, you know as the only way to do things. ;)
In the end, the flashback is for smaller shops... ones with limited space looking to maximize colors. My shop would be unbearably tight if we squeezed in an 8 color. I could put 3 flashbacks in if I wanted and still print all 6 colors, with a DB I'd have to revolve 3 times AND still only be able to print 5 colors (having to be careful not to be too hot when I printed after the flash).
There is a place for everything, I even mentioned in this thread that there is nothing wrong with them but there is a trade off and as long as they understand that, then by all means. For example:
Revolving def slows things down, but so do flash backs. Neither are best practices. Both can help you put a band-aid on not having enough heads/flashes.
Nothing wrong with what you have done, you have space constraints. By band-aid I meant you've had to make a serious speed sacrifice by using flashbacks to save print heads to accommodate your space.
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When we move to a new shop our plans are to get a 2nd FB... then when we get our 2nd auto it will be a 12 color and we will get "real" quartz flashes... If we are still on the Sabre platform we will definitely be keeping the flashbacks as options if we were to need them.
Options are awesome! We have revolver AND flashbacks available on the Sabre platform. :)
Options are great. I have never said otherwise. Just pointing out the trade off, some shops have no option but to go that way. I understand the need to defend the way you run your shop. Which if you read my posts in context you have no reason to need to do that, the only issue I take with it is when some pretended it didn't slow things down. Some would prefer the human to be the limitation not the machine so I feel it was important to note for the newbies. If you don't agree that's great.
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I think again, basically what we are all saying is the choice is up to you. Some of us like different brands for different reasons.
Try to buy something with AC heads, Choppers, and Servo index if is within your reach. When you do grow into it and need 3 people for production you will be glad you have the extra speed.
THIS!!!
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on a Gauntlett 3 or Challenger 3, I bet we could run even faster yet as the tables are staying in one position, and you're not 'trying to hit a moving target'
I fully agree the table up and down makes a huge difference, but those presses are probably out of his league if he is looking at the air machines. I would just highly suggest still he get into a Servo press. He will thank us all later.
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Not only did no one ever suggest that Flashbacks aren't a compromise/slow down but I even posted a video demonstrating their exact speed.
I'm not defending or misconstruing anything, I'm showing EXACTLY how it works vs theoretical "It's painfully slow" which clearly isn't the case.
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That print has a 5-6 second flash... how long is everyone flashing with with your standard quartz flash? 4 seconds?
2 seconds more per shirt... that means on a 300 pcs job you have 600 more seconds, 10 mins.
I agree we should inform potential users of all the details... They should know that on an average 300pcs job it might cost them 10-15 mins more.
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Not only did no one ever suggest that Flashbacks aren't a compromise/slow down but I even posted a video demonstrating their exact speed.
I'm not defending or misconstruing anything, I'm showing EXACTLY how it works vs theoretical "It's painfully slow" which clearly isn't the case.
Actually it was suggested that they were not band-aids on the first page which IMO is misleading. It suggests there are no sacrifices to run them. Which would be false.
Note, some find 30ish dz a hour painfully slow. Some find 70dz a hour painfully slow. Some guy out there would kill to have 1 dz a hour through his kitchen stove.
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That print has a 5-6 second flash... how long is everyone flashing with with your standard quartz flash? 4 seconds?
2 seconds more per shirt... that means on a 300 pcs job you have 600 more seconds, 10 mins.
I agree we should inform potential users of all the details... They should know that on an average 300pcs job it might cost them 10-15 mins more.
Once we warmed up I would say most jobs are flashing in around 2 seconds at least that is how it was when Shelly and I used to do the printing.
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That print has a 5-6 second flash... how long is everyone flashing with with your standard quartz flash? 4 seconds?
we only flash at 5-6 seconds until the press is warmed up... after the platens get warm (nearly impossible with a flashback btw), we're down around 3.5 seconds... after the platens get hot, or working on poly, we're around a 2-2.5 second flash time.
now that I brought that up, that is one of the biggest limitations of using a flashback in my mind (the fact that you can't get the platens very warm)... textac works better warm, plastisol sheers better warm, etc.
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Graphicdisorder... I do not think anyone said the flashback did not slow production down compare to the dedicated flash station.
Back to what the OP was wanting is what would we recommend the Cutless or diamondback (did not give model so comparison is done with s 10/8). For me there is pro and cons for either.
both are entry level both come in 10/8. with the cutless you have the option of printing full 8 color with a flashback or going full 7 color with dedicated flash station. with the diamond back s you have a choice of going full 8 colors with no flash, or 7 color with dedicated flash station. the diamondback s is 12" dia. the cutless is 14" with the diamond all electric, with the cutless air head and electric index so the cutless needs a compressor. the diamondback s max print size is 16x18 the cutless 20x20.
so the speed thing which you seem to be driving really is a non starter between the 2 press because they both can be set up as 7 color with dedicated flash station. and both index electric. now does an electric head print faster than an air head? is an electric head have easier adjustments over air heads?
so for me both of those presses are very similar with minor differences. cutlass larger footprint but can do 8 colors with flash if needed, can add flashes and not lose colors if needed. the diamondback s does not need compressor (money for compressor and electrical need for compressor not needed ) if flashes are added then lose colors.
for me the biggest factor which stick out to me is the 8 color verse 7 color option. now yes the diamondback s can come configured as a 10/9 which then give a full 8 color and a dedicated flash station but now you have only 1 spot for load and unload. another trade off.
so it really does come down to what the OP a) can afford, b) what is more important 8 colors or 7 colors, c) how many employees will be running the machine most days. if just 1(like my shop) then for me the speed is not going to be as needed as much as the colors because 1 person will never be able to run either machine at the fastest speed (takes 2 people to be the fastest load and unload)
this is just my .02, world peace to all :)
and as always maybe i am wrong and i usually am
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now that I brought that up, that is one of the biggest limitations of using a flashback in my mind (the fact that you can't get the platens very warm)... textac works better warm, plastisol sheers better warm, etc.
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now that is not true at all. we have flashback and yes the pallet heats up. in fact on longer runs we do speed flash up faster and faster the more we print. in fact on cold morning i turn the press on and let is cycle with the flashback on to get the pallets warmed up. so saying that they cannot get them very warm is just not true at all in my experience.
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Graphicdisorder... I do not think anyone said the flashback did not slow production down compare to the dedicated flash station.
I used "band-aid" in the context that is slowed down production. You said:
i agee flashbacks are awesome, wish I had a second as well. will have one in near future. and to me a flashback is not a band-aid at all.
Which to me would suggest you felt it did not slow down production. It may not slow YOU down but it would slow down MANY is all I am saying. We need people to understand that flashbacks and using revolver have trade offs. My original point was that simple and people got all defensive.
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now that I brought that up, that is one of the biggest limitations of using a flashback in my mind (the fact that you can't get the platens very warm)... textac works better warm, plastisol sheers better warm, etc.
now that is not true at all. we have flashback and yes the pallet heats up. in fact on longer runs we do speed flash up faster and faster the more we print. in fact on cold morning i turn the press on and let is cycle with the flashback on to get the pallets warmed up. so saying that they cannot get them very warm is just not true at all in my experience.
at the speeds we had to run our flashback in order to not gel the ink in the screen above the platens never got very warm due to the fans cooling it down.
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Diamond back is Air heads.
Even if it wasn't it would still need air for table up as well as chop cylinders.
M&R doesn't have an all electric press that I'm aware of.
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well a band-aide is a fix for something which is broken or not working correctly. for me that characterization is not accurate. and not defensive just have different opinion than yourself.
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now that I brought that up, that is one of the biggest limitations of using a flashback in my mind (the fact that you can't get the platens very warm)... textac works better warm, plastisol sheers better warm, etc.
now that is not true at all. we have flashback and yes the pallet heats up. in fact on longer runs we do speed flash up faster and faster the more we print. in fact on cold morning i turn the press on and let is cycle with the flashback on to get the pallets warmed up. so saying that they cannot get them very warm is just not true at all in my experience.
We have a hard time warming up the pallets... we just don't do it. On long runs though, it will warm up and we have to speed up the flash... not like standard flashes though.
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Diamond back is Air heads.
Even if it wasn't it would still need air for table up as well as chop cylinders.
M&R doesn't have an all electric press that I'm aware of.
my bad i was wring so the comparisons are even closer than what i had thought
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well a band-aide is a fix for something which is broken or not working correctly. for me that characterization is not accurate. and not defensive just have different opinion than yourself.
Use whatever verbiage you like. Flash backs would require a sacrifice for many shops. Which is speed. They are great if your not running fast or never need to run fast. If you want to be able to (which is one of the greatest reasons to automate to start with), one must consider other options. Why people are so defensive about it is beyond me.
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Diamond back is Air heads.
Even if it wasn't it would still need air for table up as well as chop cylinders.
M&R doesn't have an all electric press that I'm aware of.
This is correct ^^^
As far as I know the air requirements are about the same between the two machines.
The cutlass msrp is 27 or 28k (can't remember which)
If you factor in the compressor it is only about 3-4k to upgrade to the sabre... 8)
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the diamondback s max print size is 16x18 the cutless 20x20.
Brandt, isn't this enough of a reason for you to push the Workhorse over the Diamondback?
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the diamondback s max print size is 16x18 the cutless 20x20.
Brandt, isn't this enough of a reason for you to push the Workhorse over the Diamondback?
I wouldn't buy either one as I have pointed out already. I would buy a all servo press. I have not suggested one brand over another.
When I was shopping my autos Workhorse visited us and we came to a install locally with them and even though the press had problems on install they corrected it the next day and the customer is still using that press last I knew.
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Well 86 me. You win
Off to the beach to be defensive
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sabre choppers (http://youtu.be/ICtsll7fjyo)
Pretty sure I didn't embed the video correctly, but seems to fit in this thread...
Edit... The cutlass will be the same set up...
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I feel that when it comes to getting an automatic press, you should get the biggest, fastest, and most versitile machine you can afford. But also consider your clientele and shop needs.
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Damn, I missed out on all the fun it seems!
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Wow!! I can honestly say I appreciate all the feedback! Looks like I need to lean more towards an AC head and servo press. For the difference in money the Sabre 8/10 may be the way to go. I don't think MR has a AC servo unit that is even close $$ wise. Space is not much of an issue for me unless we got to a 2 auto situation and we could still make it work, it would just be a little snug. Need to go see a Sabre and probably a Sportsman in person before making the final decision but this has definitely helped. Thanks Guys!!
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no matter which way you go with flashes (flashback -or- standalone quartz -- I'd suggest getting both, but you could always add one later) you'll be happy with the Sabre...
Your next step will be a bigger dryer ;)
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Wow!! I can honestly say I appreciate all the feedback! Looks like I need to lean more towards an AC head and servo press. For the difference in money the Sabre 8/10 may be the way to go. I don't think MR has a AC servo unit that is even close $$ wise. Space is not much of an issue for me unless we got to a 2 auto situation and we could still make it work, it would just be a little snug. Need to go see a Sabre and probably a Sportsman in person before making the final decision but this has definitely helped. Thanks Guys!!
The Sportsman is a lot closer in price than you may imagine. Feel free to contact me to discuss the differences, visit some end users, and discuss pricing.
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I realize aesthetics aren't typically a factor in buying production machines but Workhorse do make a stylish looking press.
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Comments relating to all the discussions about flash style:
1) Revolver mode allows flashing in virtually ANY desired sequence, AND allows ample after-flash cooling time.
2) Positioning the flash at the unload station (which can also be programmed into the Revolver sequence) allows printing and flashing of as many colors as the press has print heads. So, for instance a Sportsman 8/10 can print 8 colors AND flash in that scenario.
3) Each flash unit requires power, so if you need two "flashback-style" units in order to flash more than 1 color, you just doubled your power requirements.
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3) Each flash unit requires power, so if you need two "flashback-style" units in order to flash more than 1 color, you just doubled your power requirements.
You can revolve on the workhorse as well... Up to 9 times I think. So you can flash more than once with a single flash and in just about any order you want.
Just as an FYI.
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3) Each flash unit requires power, so if you need two "flashback-style" units in order to flash more than 1 color, you just doubled your power requirements.
You can revolve on the workhorse as well... Up to 9 times I think. So you can flash more than once with a single flash and in just about any order you want.
Just as an FYI.
This is correct^^^
Also, i'm pretty sure orbital mode can assign the flash over the unload, if the customer has the plug and go quartz flash.
Flashbacks are low amperage flashes... Because they only pull 20 Amps each, two of them pull less amperage than most standard quartz flashes...
Flashback = 20 Amps
Plug-N-Go (single phase) = 60 Amps
Plug-N-Go (three phase) = 40 Amps
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Bonus on the M&R side is you can get the Red Chili D flashes that have temperature sensors for the substrate.. makes scorching shirts nearly impossible... (and allows you to automatically optimize your flash times as the job runs)
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You can revolve on the workhorse as well...
Hmmm, so you're suggesting revolving with a flashback?
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3) Each flash unit requires power, so if you need two "flashback-style" units in order to flash more than 1 color, you just doubled your power requirements.
You can revolve on the workhorse as well... Up to 9 times I think. So you can flash more than once with a single flash and in just about any order you want.
Just as an FYI.
This is correct^^^
Also, i'm pretty sure orbital mode can assign the flash over the unload, if the customer has the plug and go quartz flash.
Flashbacks are low amperage flashes... Because they only pull 20 Amps each, two of them pull less amperage than most standard quartz flashes...
Flashback = 20 Amps
Plug-N-Go (single phase) = 60 Amps
Plug-N-Go (three phase) = 40 Amps
Do you think the higher amp draw is because the flash is better or worse. ;)
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3) Each flash unit requires power, so if you need two "flashback-style" units in order to flash more than 1 color, you just doubled your power requirements.
You can revolve on the workhorse as well... Up to 9 times I think. So you can flash more than once with a single flash and in just about any order you want.
Just as an FYI.
This is correct^^^
Also, i'm pretty sure orbital mode can assign the flash over the unload, if the customer has the plug and go quartz flash.
Flashbacks are low amperage flashes... Because they only pull 20 Amps each, two of them pull less amperage than most standard quartz flashes...
Flashback = 20 Amps
Plug-N-Go (single phase) = 60 Amps
Plug-N-Go (three phase) = 40 Amps
Do you think the higher amp draw is because the flash is better or worse. ;)
I would attribute the difference in amp draw to the type of the bulbs used, and the fact that one stays on and the other goes on and off... ;)
Cool thing is... All of the flashes I referenced above are compatible with the sabre/cutlass, so the customer can decide for themselves, or get both... 8)
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3) Each flash unit requires power, so if you need two "flashback-style" units in order to flash more than 1 color, you just doubled your power requirements.
You can revolve on the workhorse as well... Up to 9 times I think. So you can flash more than once with a single flash and in just about any order you want.
Just as an FYI.
This is correct^^^
Also, i'm pretty sure orbital mode can assign the flash over the unload, if the customer has the plug and go quartz flash.
Flashbacks are low amperage flashes... Because they only pull 20 Amps each, two of them pull less amperage than most standard quartz flashes...
Flashback = 20 Amps
Plug-N-Go (single phase) = 60 Amps
Plug-N-Go (three phase) = 40 Amps
Do you think the higher amp draw is because the flash is better or worse. ;)
I would attribute the difference in amp draw to the type of the bulbs used, and the fact that one stays on and the other goes on and off... ;)
Cool thing is... All of the flashes I referenced above are compatible with the sabre/cutlass, so the customer can decide for themselves, or get both... 8)
I am giving you a hard time mang lol.
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Bonus on the M&R side is you can get the Red Chili D flashes that have temperature sensors for the substrate.. makes scorching shirts nearly impossible... (and allows you to automatically optimize your flash times as the job runs)
Also available on MSI Flashes. Great units from a guy that has been around as long as Rich.
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"Hate to start a Pissing Contest..." = Starts a Pissing Contest. ;D
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"Hate to start a Pissing Contest..." = Starts a Pissing Contest. ;D
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You can revolve on the workhorse as well...
Hmmm, so you're suggesting revolving with a flashback?
We have a single flash back due to electrical limitations (couldn't even have a full quartz flash if I wanted one)... We have revolved a couple of times when we needed to because a particular ink was being difficult on a particular print.
It's not ideal, but it gets you through the job.
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Neither flash backs or revolving are best practices and certainly not in combination with each other. I would run from each unless your scenario offers NO other solution. If someone got a job done they couldn't have otherwise then I can't fault that. God knows Shelly used to use the hell out of revolver when printing alone back in the beginning. BUT I think its just important someone points out that isn't ideal and it will slow things down. New people wont understand this unless someone tells them.
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Neither flash backs or revolving are best practices and certainly not in combination with each other. I would run from each unless your scenario offers NO other solution. If someone got a job done they couldn't have otherwise then I can't fault that. God knows Shelly used to use the hell out of revolver when printing alone back in the beginning. BUT I think its just important someone points out that isn't ideal and it will slow things down. New people wont understand this unless someone tells them.
Lots of shops flash WAY more than they need and sometimes should. This also hinders printing.
More flashes are just a bandaid for a poor understanding of printing as well.
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Neither flash backs or revolving are best practices and certainly not in combination with each other. I would run from each unless your scenario offers NO other solution. If someone got a job done they couldn't have otherwise then I can't fault that. God knows Shelly used to use the hell out of revolver when printing alone back in the beginning. BUT I think its just important someone points out that isn't ideal and it will slow things down. New people wont understand this unless someone tells them.
Lots of shops flash WAY more than they need and sometimes should. This also hinders printing.
More flashes are just a bandaid for a poor understanding of printing as well.
Is the side topic here flashing too much or the speed of a single quartz flash vs a flash back comparison for the poster considering each???
Sure many shops flash too much. I know shops that print flash print flash print (3 layers), you could shoot the print with a gun and it would bounce off it's so thick. This is going to be one really really long thread if we go down the path of print education and best practices for every aspect of printing.
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"Hate to start a Pissing Contest..." = Starts a Pissing Contest. ;D
Yeah, way to soft-soap it in there, right?
I know I've mentioned this before, but I actually really like revolver mode, especially for small orders.
One less screen to burn, and time to fold shirts and count in between rounds.
That's all you'll get from me. ;D
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so Graphicdisorder do you feel the use of a flashback is not best practices because they slow down production? some people are not as obsessed with speed as yourself. for us the flashbacks works for us just fine but then we are not speed and speed and speed. and to say it is not ideal is just saying that workhorse is putting out an inferior product which just gives a "bandaide" for the shops which want the full use of all heads to print a color while still having a flash, when they do not have the room/budget for a 10 color or 12 color press.
but then as you have stated you think both machines that the poster asked about where inferior to your needs and would not consider either one. but not everyone has your needs.....
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but then as you have stated you think both machines that the poster asked about where inferior to your needs and would not consider either one. but not everyone has your needs.....
Exactly and instead of just letting him figure it out we should all offer information each way. The trouble is you were at one point acting as if Flash Backs do not slow down production. They don't in YOUR shops scenario but they do hold the speed back for those that require even modest speed and speed is a huge reason many automate. The poster should understand that.
Same as not everyone has my needs, not everyone has yours either. Laying out the limitations for him is a good idea for information purposes.
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...I know I've mentioned this before, but I actually really like revolver mode, especially for small orders. One less screen to burn, and time to fold shirts and count in between rounds.
Exactly. Revolver allows the operator to work on other tasks while the press runs, increasing efficiency. (remember that this is a customer's comment - not the manufacturer's)
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...I know I've mentioned this before, but I actually really like revolver mode, especially for small orders. One less screen to burn, and time to fold shirts and count in between rounds.
Exactly. Revolver allows the operator to do something else while the press runs, increasing efficiency. (remember that this is a customer's comment - not the manufacturer's)
this is one of the reasons we love the flashback. we are a small shop so we do not have 2 or 3 people running jobs, just one.
Graphicdisorder I never said or implied it slowed down production. I even gave my real world numbers which shows what we print and as you stated that is a snails pace for your shop, and that you print 15x17 prints with a flash manually at 150 pieces per hour. so you are big on speed. we are not...
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Even if you're not big on speed, would you not want to print as quickly as possible? Wouldn't that allow you more time to do other things and be more efficient overall?
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...I know I've mentioned this before, but I actually really like revolver mode, especially for small orders. One less screen to burn, and time to fold shirts and count in between rounds.
Exactly. Revolver allows the operator to do something else while the press runs, increasing efficiency. (remember that this is a customer's comment - not the manufacturer's)
this is one of the reasons we love the flashback. we are a small shop so we do not have 2 or 3 people running jobs, just one.
Graphicdisorder I never said or implied it slowed down production. I even gave my real world numbers which shows what we print and as you stated that is a snails pace for your shop, and that you print 15x17 prints with a flash manually at 150 pieces per hour. so you are big on speed. we are not...
I would not suggest we are big on speed, its a factor, but not the most important one. But yes we cruise at a much faster pace then 150pcs a hour. That is why both sides should point out differences to the poster. He might want to go faster than you, had you considered that for a second he may not be after your type of output? Hell he might find your way is exactly what he's looking for. So both sides have been presented, let him choose. My issue wasn't with using flash backs, it was saying flash backs aren't slow which IMO is not telling the full story. They will limit production in many shops. Same as revolver would.
Even if you're not big on speed, would you not want to print as quickly as possible? Wouldn't that allow you more time to do other things and be more efficient overall?
Exactly.
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Even if you're not big on speed, would you not want to print as quickly as possible? Wouldn't that allow you more time to do other things and be more efficient overall?
but imagine this real world example. freedom with flashback on head 1 press 6 color, 8 station, design 6 colors on black , 1 operator 150 shirts. that 1 person can print this job in 1 hour and at the end of that 1 hour not one shirt fell into the box at the end of the dryer. they had time to catch and fold every shirt and keep the machine inked up while still be able to load and unload. to me that is multitasking is it not. again this is real world not imaginary again this is 1 person that is it
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All I've really seen postulated is that the flashback isn't as slow as ppl try to make it out to be.
5-6 second flash time isn't all that bad when it keeps you from having to burn and register a second screen on small jobs or keeps all your heads free without having to revolve.
If you have a 6 color job on darks and you have white in the design, you can get away without revolver mode with a flash back (in PFPF mode).
With only revolver and putting the flash in the unload station you would need to go around 3 times to print that job!
Flash back is certainly faster than 3 revolutions!
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Even if you're not big on speed, would you not want to print as quickly as possible? Wouldn't that allow you more time to do other things and be more efficient overall?
Then why are you getting a press that tops out at 750-850 pcs an hour?
You need to get a machine that doesn't table up and down... That way you can print as quickly as possible.
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I've only met a few people that can LOAD more than 700 shirts an hour - much less, load them perfectly. So speed is not everything - it'd be 3rd or 4th down my list.
There are some hotrod machines out there, but for best bang for the buck - for what people are talking about on this thread - i don't think you can go wrong with either the sabre, or the sporty - both are KILLER presses for the money. Both companies have great service and parts.
in fact, if the sporty and sabre could have a baby - that'd be the 'perfect' press.
I think the ultimate versatility would be the sabre with one flashback and one roll in flash. Or a 12 color sporty with two quartz flashes.
Both presses offer a TON for the money.
A lot of good comments on this thread, though.
If your average order is under 200 pcs - then setup would trump speed for me.
J
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in fact, if the sporty and sabre could have a baby - that'd be the 'perfect' press.
You're one sick puppy. ;)
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...5-6 second flash time isn't all that bad...
What about the cooling/index/print time? Please don't suggest that a flashback enables a 5-6 second CYCLE time, because it doesn't, as you know.
Anyone can come up with a scenario that favors a particular configuration. Revolver+flash gives outstanding versatility, because you can flash as much as you need to when required, and you can also print at very high production rates when required (as witnessed by the 2-second flash times referenced elsewhere in this thread).
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All I've really seen postulated is that the flashback isn't as slow as ppl try to make it out to be.
5-6 second flash time isn't all that bad when it keeps you from having to burn and register a second screen on small jobs or keeps all your heads free without having to revolve.
If you have a 6 color job on darks and you have white in the design, you can get away without revolver mode with a flash back (in PFPF mode).
With only revolver and putting the flash in the unload station you would need to go around 3 times to print that job!
Flash back is certainly faster than 3 revolutions!
How slow something is relative. You might think your car is fast, I think my Z06 is probably a lot faster. Someone with a La Ferrari would say my Z06 is slow. Someone flying a jet would say they are all standing still basically. Space station operator is saying what jet?
I think we all have presented both sides and beat the dead horse. I think by now hes got enough info to make a choice as far as flash backs and revolver go.
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...5-6 second flash time isn't all that bad...
What about the cooling/index/print time? Please don't suggest that a flashback enables a 5-6 second CYCLE time, because it doesn't, as you know.
Anyone can come up with a scenario that favors a particular configuration. Revolver+flash gives outstanding versatility, because you can flash as much as you need to when required, and you can also print at very high production rates when required (as witnessed by the 2-second flash times referenced elsewhere in this thread).
Just as a 2 second flash time doesn't equate to a 2 second cycle time either.
Every press has to index and table up and table down, I was literally counting flash time, just as you were when you said 2 second flash.
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Every press has to index and table up and table down,
Not every press has table up and down ;)
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All I've really seen postulated is that the flashback isn't as slow as ppl try to make it out to be.
5-6 second flash time isn't all that bad when it keeps you from having to burn and register a second screen on small jobs or keeps all your heads free without having to revolve.
If you have a 6 color job on darks and you have white in the design, you can get away without revolver mode with a flash back (in PFPF mode).
With only revolver and putting the flash in the unload station you would need to go around 3 times to print that job!
Flash back is certainly faster than 3 revolutions!
How slow something is relative. You might think your car is fast, I think my Z06 is probably a lot faster. Someone with a La Ferrari would say my Z06 is slow. Someone flying a jet would say they are all standing still basically. Space station operator is saying what jet?
I think we all have presented both sides and beat the dead horse. I think by now hes got enough info to make a choice as far as flash backs and revolver go.
Well,if you do some searching you will find actual numbers being stated that are FAR off from reality. That's the "slow as ppl make it out to be."
Even when I messaged ppl that owned them and ppl I trusted to not blow smoke up my arse I got numbers that weren't accurate to what we've seen... Maybe they've made advancements... I know the Sabre flashback is different than the jav.
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Every press has to index and table up and table down,
Not every press has table up and down ;)
Don't let the fact that the horse is dead stop you right?
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All I've really seen postulated is that the flashback isn't as slow as ppl try to make it out to be.
5-6 second flash time isn't all that bad when it keeps you from having to burn and register a second screen on small jobs or keeps all your heads free without having to revolve.
If you have a 6 color job on darks and you have white in the design, you can get away without revolver mode with a flash back (in PFPF mode).
With only revolver and putting the flash in the unload station you would need to go around 3 times to print that job!
Flash back is certainly faster than 3 revolutions!
How slow something is relative. You might think your car is fast, I think my Z06 is probably a lot faster. Someone with a La Ferrari would say my Z06 is slow. Someone flying a jet would say they are all standing still basically. Space station operator is saying what jet?
I think we all have presented both sides and beat the dead horse. I think by now hes got enough info to make a choice as far as flash backs and revolver go.
Well,if you do some searching you will find actual numbers being stated that are FAR off from reality. That's the "slow as ppl make it out to be."
Even when I messaged ppl that owned them and ppl I trusted to not blow smoke up my arse I got numbers that weren't accurate to what we've seen... Maybe they've made advancements... I know the Sabre flashback is different than the jav.
Jav probably index's slower then the Sabre, at least god I hope so. So I am sure that doesn't make him wrong, just not in the context you are answering in. I know when I watched one of those jav using a flash back on the work horse install i visited it was painfully slow and thats the context ive commented in.
Every press has to index and table up and table down,
Not every press has table up and down ;)
Don't let the fact that the horse is dead stop you right?
It's never stopped you before!
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What Are The List Prices And Real World/Street Prices For These Fine Horses?
Price And Cost Is Very Important!
winston
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What Are The List Prices And Real World/Street Prices For These Fine Horses?
Price And Cost Is Very Important!
winston
Happy New Year Winston
Call me
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...Just as a 2 second flash time doesn't equate to a 2 second cycle time either...I was literally counting flash time, just as you were when you said 2 second flash...
BIG difference is that the 2-second "normal quartz flash time" happens concurrently with the print stroke. With a flashback style flash, when running with the unit in a head with a screen in it, the flash time and cooling time are AFTER the print stroke, adding to the cycle time.
Even if the flashback is used in a head without a screen, the time required to actually flash is dramatically longer than a standard flash, because of the small coverage area of the flashback. It has to travel (front to back or back to front or both) to cover the entire image.
In either case, the flashback-style units dramatically reduce production speed.
In many cases M&R quartz flashes can gel a print in the same amount of time required by the squeegee stroke, so flashing has very little (if any) effect on production speed.
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...Just as a 2 second flash time doesn't equate to a 2 second cycle time either...I was literally counting flash time, just as you were when you said 2 second flash...
BIG difference is that the 2-second "normal quartz flash time" happens concurrently with the print stroke. With a flashback style flash, when running with the unit in a head with a screen in it, the flash time and cooling time are AFTER the print stroke, adding to the cycle time.
Even if the flashback is used in a head without a screen, the time required to actually flash is dramatically longer than a standard flash, because of the small coverage area of the flashback. It has to travel (front to back or back to front or both) to cover the entire image.
In either case, the flashback-style units dramatically reduce production speed.
In many cases M&R quartz flashes can gel a print in the same amount of time required by the squeegee stroke, so flashing has very little (if any) effect on production speed.
I was speaking apples to apples (table up in head 2) since you can't even compare in head flashing since M&R doesn't even offer that option.
So in that instance, yes, it also flashes while the print stroke is happening. I was referencing a real world full print... Not a 15x17 print as I don't think your average shop is doing prints like that on average. Our average is about 10" tall.
Once you start comparing in head vs stand alone you might as well compare in head vs PFPF on a six color like I did earlier with a 3 revolution situation. Honestly that's more apples to apples than in head vs stand alone for no reason.
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- Hi I have a bike and think I need a car since I'm spending 5 hours a day going to from my job.
- Toyota and Honda make some pretty decent cars, they'll get you to and from work in about 14 minutes each way. you can get a decent used one for ~ $3000
- Yeah but A Bugatti Veyron will do it in 3.1 minutes, the paddle shifters alone will save you around a second a shift, think of the ROI
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...you can't even compare in head flashing since M&R doesn't even offer that option.
Yeah, funny how M&R (and virtually every other manufacturer) doesn't see in-head flashing as a good option.... Just like M&R never saw a v-squeegee as a good option.
We offer what works best for production, and our (and our customers') success speaks to the validity of that approach.
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...you can't even compare in head flashing since M&R doesn't even offer that option.
Yeah, funny how M&R (and virtually every other manufacturer) doesn't see in-head flashing as a good option.... Just like M&R never saw a v-squeegee as a good option.
We offer what works best for production, and our (and our customers') success speaks to the validity of that approach.
Hmm, until recently you guys were the only one that offered revolver... Was that because it sucked and no one wanted it?
No, it was because it was patented... Just like the flash back. Anatol tried to release one but was shut down due to patent... Just like you guys shut down ppl that tried to implement revolver.
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...you can't even compare in head flashing since M&R doesn't even offer that option.
Yeah, funny how M&R (and virtually every other manufacturer) doesn't see in-head flashing as a good option.... Just like M&R never saw a v-squeegee as a good option.
We offer what works best for production, and our (and our customers') success speaks to the validity of that approach.
Hmm, until recently you guys were the only one that offered revolver... Was that because it sucked and no one wanted it?
No, it was because it was patented... Just like the flash back. Anatol tried to release one but was shut down due to patent... Just like you guys shut down ppl that tried to implement revolver.
Fat Bobby was still putting a revolver like program on Work Horses before the patent expired and Anatol was too. Who cares about patents apparently.
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...you can't even compare in head flashing since M&R doesn't even offer that option.
Yeah, funny how M&R (and virtually every other manufacturer) doesn't see in-head flashing as a good option.... Just like M&R never saw a v-squeegee as a good option.
We offer what works best for production, and our (and our customers') success speaks to the validity of that approach.
that is a class act response from a manufacturer. Yeah its funny that workhorse does not have customers who speak to the validity of there approach. oh wait they do.
and now name calling "fat Bobby" guess the useful information on this thread is now nearing the end..
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...you can't even compare in head flashing since M&R doesn't even offer that option.
Yeah, funny how M&R (and virtually every other manufacturer) doesn't see in-head flashing as a good option.... Just like M&R never saw a v-squeegee as a good option.
We offer what works best for production, and our (and our customers') success speaks to the validity of that approach.
that is a class act response from a manufacturer. Yeah its funny that workhorse does not have customers who speak to the validity of there approach. oh wait they do.
and now name calling "fat Bobby" guess the useful information on this thread is now nearing the end..
This whole forum was founded because of fat bobby basically. How do you not know who he is? We can't type his name it censors it. Lighten up, print some shirts. LOL
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...you can't even compare in head flashing since M&R doesn't even offer that option.
Yeah, funny how M&R (and virtually every other manufacturer) doesn't see in-head flashing as a good option.... Just like M&R never saw a v-squeegee as a good option.
We offer what works best for production, and our (and our customers') success speaks to the validity of that approach.
Patents have a tendency to do that... ;)
Tri-Lock is only (or mainly) available on M&R... By your logic, every other big equipment manufacturer must have not seen it as a good option..??
Rumor has it, the Tri-Lock patent is running up soon... Wonder what will happen when it does... ;D
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...you can't even compare in head flashing since M&R doesn't even offer that option.
Yeah, funny how M&R (and virtually every other manufacturer) doesn't see in-head flashing as a good option.... Just like M&R never saw a v-squeegee as a good option.
We offer what works best for production, and our (and our customers') success speaks to the validity of that approach.
Patents have a tendency to do that... ;)
Tri-Lock is only (or mainly) available on M&R... By your logic, every other big equipment manufacturer must have not seen it as a good option..??
Rumor has it, the Tri-Lock patent is running up soon... Wonder what will happen when it does... ;D
Will you be selling another manufacture by then or gonna stick with one for a minute?
;D ;D ;D ;D
I am just giving you a hard time I hope you know that.
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you guys need to focus on sales -- if you have this much time to post.
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...Yeah its funny that workhorse does not have customers who speak to the validity of there approach...
I never suggested anything of the sort - might want to read what I wrote again.
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By your logic, every other big equipment manufacturer must have not seen it as a good option..??...
That's not what I wrote...
It was a LONG while between the flashback appearing and the patent being granted. We built our own version in the interim, but neither we nor our customers were happy with the results, so we discontinued it. The patent was granted LONG after we discarded the idea...
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WOW, I just now saw this thread and tried to scan through it best I could. You guys know I'm big on "real-time production speed" because that's what we HAVE to do because of our production/business model. We do a lot of work with our auto, small jobs mostly, so even if we've got a smaller job, say 100 pieces, we need to run that job as fast as we can while maintaining quality to get it the hell off the press and get the next of the jobs on and off the press.
Our needs are a lot different than most, but my goal is to get as much work out of one auto as is possible so that means, only for our shop (other shops will vary), doing 2K jobs per year and as much over a million in sales per year with just that one auto. Flash times don't slow us down much really, once things are warmed up we're flashing for about the same amount of time as the print stroke which is under 2 seconds. I've slowed down some things with our print head like adjusting the time it takes for our carriage to print after the table is in the up position and flood speeds so we're never waiting for the table to position up due to flooding. We also print our white inks very fast but even with all of that we are rarely waiting on our flash units.
What we require from our auto is WAY different than most, so all of the differing viewpoints on this thread aren't wrong or right. A flashback wouldn't work well for us, as revolver mode does get used from time to time on smaller jobs that we don't want to burn a 2nd screen for when we could get the job done quicker than the extra 20 minutes of labor involved with adding a screen into the production loop. If whomever is looking for an auto can see themselves operating the same way SRI does then you need a press that can run at 1000/hr and even more importantly, you need to be able to set jobs up very fast.
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I have a Sabre and use Tri-Loc all day every day without any issues. I also use Tri-Loc with the 2331 Starlight; a big no-no so I'm told. No issues (almost a year in). 8)
I have a Flashback, typically use it in Table Up mode and it shuttles out and back during the print strokes. Speed isn't really effected much. Then again, my shop just isn't running 80/hr/dz. everyday.; typically we are 35-50/dz/hr. depending on the print. Rarely do I use it to flash on a print head, unless I need to print all colors with a flash. Flashbacks have versatility that Quartz flashes don't. But you will sacrifice some speed for it. Also to clarify, the Sabre DOES allow programming the unload station as a Flash.
Back to XG Print's original post, an 8/10 with 2 flashes is what you need. Get a Sabre with one Quartz and one Flashback. You won't break the bank and you'll have tons of versatility.
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you guys need to focus on sales -- if you have this much time to post.
I lost focus for a second but we did OK.
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you guys need to focus on sales -- if you have this much time to post.
I lost focus for a second but we did OK.
Dude, your numbers for the 19th look grim... ;D
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you guys need to focus on sales -- if you have this much time to post.
I lost focus for a second but we did OK.
Dude, your numbers for the 19th look grim... ;D
;D ;D ;D
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Can anyone throw in a rough price comparison for the machines in question? For instance the Workhorse cutlass/sabre and M&R Diamondback/Sportsman in the 10/8 setup.
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To the original poster: Have you made a decision yet? We have a Diamond Back all air and a ROQ YOU and would be happy to give you our experiences with both. Just shoot me a PM.
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