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screen printing => General Screen Printing => Topic started by: stitches4815 on January 19, 2016, 09:15:40 AM
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We recently purchased a used auto. It is an older M&R but the thing works great. I know there is a learning curve when it comes to using one of these and I just had a bump this past weekend. Up until now I have been fortunate to print on light shirts. I was trying to print white on black and have had miserable results. I am using Union ink Diamond, static frames, mesh counts of 110 & 155. The problem that I am having is it looks like the ink isn't clearing the screens. I have a very rough print. I have made adjustments with speed, squeegee angle, etc. I mixed the ink really well so it was creamy. I am clueless as how to fix this. Any suggestions would be great.
Thanks
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What print order? What squeegee? Is press plumb and level? How are you adjusting pressure? What pressure are you at? Are your screens properly prepared?
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how did the print look BEFORE you flashed it? That's where you need a really good screen clear...
how's the tension on your screens?
all the other questions that Sonny asked apply as well.
it took us a long time to get to the point where we can print with minimal (30psi) pressure on a white screen and get excellent results... one of the toughest lessons for us was that we needed to learn to flood harder than we thought...
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I remember Diamond White being a pain to print years ago because of how thick it was. Do you have a smoothing screen? If not go get a coated screen and expose it. Tape some teflon to the back put it after the flash and then just add some clear base in it for the squeegee. You can use it as a smoother which will help you.
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I'd recommend trying some different inks.
Call Robert at One Stroke and get some No. 27? Tell him it's what we use at Acadiana T-Shirts use, he'll hook you up.
My guy is in love with it right now and it's not that expensive.
We built a warming tank for our inks... Aquarium heater in some water and the buckets go in there.
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It's the ink
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My first thought was definitely the ink. Second would be squeegee angle...and durometer, less so. a 70/90/70 kicked all the way out will be effectively softer (due to deflection) than a straight 60 standing straight up.
But, yeah. Sounds like the ink. If you aren't getting the ink to cleanly clear the stencil and leave a smooth base (one stroke, two strokes, whatever) before flashing there isn't much you can do to really fix it once it's flashed, only minimize the pits by smoothing.
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Union Diamond White has the distinction of being the worst white I've ever even seen.
Granted this was years ago, and the formulation may have changed, but that stuff was like hardened
plaster.
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Id echo the Union White being not good. Could be part of your problem.
We like Wilflex Quick White still. Tried several and still keep going back to it.
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The specific is the Diamond white.
Union makes several other good whites.
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The specific is the Diamond white.
Union makes several other good whites.
Yes I am speaking of that one.
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I would hesitate to blame the ink until I eliminated all other possibilities. Any ink can be made to print easily and conversely difficultly. If another ink should work with your set parameters then I would say that that ink is more forgiving. While working as a supplier I cannot think of one time that the product was 100% at fault. There was always a circumstance that contributed to the failure. Learn what parameters to look for and eliminate them individually. The printers that learned to print 20+ years ago know the parameters and can trouble shoot most problems. There was no easily accessible internet and most supplier reps knew little of actual printing. There were of course exceptions. George LePage Carl Busey, Kevin Davies, Joe Clarke, etc. You learned quickly what could go wrong as it went wrong daily. So I would encourage you to find the real issue or issues so that when it happens the next time with another ink (and it will) you can adjust accordingly.
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Last time we used diamond white from union it sucked, it was very stiff and had a bad smell, not a bad print if you could get it to print...I think I still might have a half gal or qt somewhere.
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I can't believe I'm saying this, and in public, but I agree with a lot of what Mr. McDonald is saying. I think there are a number of things contributing, and any single one may improve the print, but I doubt that is the end of it. I certainly wouldn't change multiple things at one time, but pick away at potential problems, document the findings, and move to the next variable. Just some random silly thought from an old timer.
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I can't believe I'm saying this, and in public, but I agree with a lot of what Mr. McDonald is saying. I think there are a number of things contributing, and any single one may improve the print, but I doubt that is the end of it. I certainly wouldn't change multiple things at one time, but pick away at potential problems, document the findings, and move to the next variable. Just some random silly thought from an old timer.
Mr McDonald is my dad. I am Humbly Yours "Master Printer" Sonny McDonald. 8)
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Where is Allen Howe to chime in when you need him!? :)
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I'd put money on it being "several" factors. Who installed the press? Do you know if they calibrated the press properly? Bad ink mixed with bad mesh counts don't help matters either. If the ink was creamy in your opinion that means it was printable more than likely but if you're printing an ink who's viscosity is less than ideal through a 155/64 or a 110/81 with poor tension (even if they were high tension they still aren't optimal) then I can see how clearing the mesh would be hard. Now throw in some squeegee blades that aren't sharp, random off contact distances from pallet to pallet, maybe the wrong durometer blade, I see a long list of things to check along with the ink.
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Ordinarily I would agree 100% that the ink can't be 100% at fault...
...and then we went through our QCM white ink debacle. If you can't get white to fly through a 150/48 24~28nm² with two or three strokes with every combination of squeegee durometer, angle and pressure known to man after mixing for hours, controlling temperature, experimenting with EOM, off contact, force-flooding, etc etc etc...then it is the ink. Changing to Wilflex Quick White made ever single problem go away. Instantly.
This may be an isolated incident (isolated to every single one of their plastisol whites), but with those meshes and the likelihood that almost all of those other variables have probably been tweaked, even unintentionally...unless those screens are barely over single-digit tensions, I'm sticking with finger pointing at the white ink.
Full disclosure: I've had lots of bad experience with Union and am clearly biased even though that was well over a decade ago.
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QCM 158? 159?
Thats my favourite ink!
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Is the viscosity too high? Every once in a while someone tries to pawn off a heat damaged gallon here...
Found Unions DW to be similar to IC 711 (pre-CPSIA) and Triangles Phoenix when I was testing years ago.
All three could need a touch of either reducer or halftone base, but were printing just fine at proper temp/viscosity.
I think the thread's on the right track though--press parallel, screen tension, and blade sharpness would be the first things I'd run down.
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I've run about 50 gallons of diamond white but it's been 3 years since I've touched it. It was always fine right out of a fresh bucket but as it aged it did so poorly. Reason why I don't initially want to blame the ink is simply due to me being a white ink whore and I've used so many over the years and nowadays I'll use a gallon of white that 5 years ago I would have said was junk but now I can make it look great. The biggest hurdle we jumped when it came to printing white ink on darks was with mesh count. Swap that 155/whatever it may be to a 150/48 and let's see how the game changes. Swap the 110 for a 120/54 or a 135/48 and things will be totally different. But all that being said, if the press is out of calibration he may be able to get a decent print on pallet #6, 8, 10 but junk on the remaining pallets and no magic mesh or smiling razor sharp squeegee blade is going to fix the consistency.
And even if the press was set up by a competent tech, it doesn't mean it was. And what I mean by that is I've spoken to dozens of new press owners who thought their press was installed by a genius or someone who really did it right only to find out that they didn't once they learn how to check for proper calibration. Hell, I know a guy on this forum who had a press guru in his shop an entire day calibrating his press only to find out it was so out of whack it couldn't print a color on top of an underbase without having a 4 point trap.
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Diamond White isn't THAT bad - it's got a heavy pigment load in it so we've noticed that S-mesh helps that ink clear a lot better.
Or any good mesh with a larger inner diameter (openings) - we used to print a lot of it on reds and blacks or blends with simple logos.
It has a purpose, but not in my general production day. If something needs a thick white print that doesn't let the dye migrate, then Diamond White is the ticket :)
I'd venture to say it's more of an angle/pressure thing - that ink isn't EASY to print compared to others. Faster stroke? steeper angle? how sharp are your squeegies? 70/90/70 triple duro helps thick ink lay clear for us.
J
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QCM 158? 159?
Thats my favourite ink!
Yup. They used to work fine for us. They also sometimes worked fine. Apparently they have consistency issues with their particle size. Sometime everything was fine. Had us diagnosing all over the place randomly.
We'll go back to them when they fix that and our testing confirms it.
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I've run about 50 gallons of diamond white but it's been 3 years since I've touched it. It was always fine right out of a fresh bucket but as it aged it did so poorly.
...and that was most certainly my issue with it. Between 5 gallon buckets (I suspected) sitting on my suppliers floor for longer than advisable and us getting fed up and shelving it to only try again later with (understandably worse) results. The body would change drastically over time.
You live, you learn.
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Dan, did the "recent" issue with the QCM 158/159 have to do with 1-2mm sized chunks clogging up in the stencil? I had 2 5-gallon pails of Tidy where that happened and then bought a 5 of 158 from a different supplier that was good. But even if they've got it all sorted out I would bet there are hundreds of gallons out there with chunks and I really don't have time to open a pail and get 20 prints in to find out. Not that it's impossible to find the chunks prior to printing, it just isn't ideal. I took a small scoop out and spread it out on our stainless table and you have to spread it out really thin to find the chunks.
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That's pretty much exactly the problem. We couldn't get an entire round of shirts off the press before we had to extremely thoroughly clean out the stencil...even brought Camie 480 screen opener back into the mix after years of swearing it off in an effort to detoxify and green up the shop.
We started using it because it worked, was phtalate free and we were getting a great price as the first big customer from an upstart supplier.
They used the term "particle size," even brought in someone who was described to me as one of their "chemistry experts," who did know his stuff in regards to screen printing. Asked all the right questions. But once we got to mesh aperture, thread diameter, thread count and he said "Murakami 150S?" I nodded, all of that expertise went right out the window with a concerned "ohhhhhh." A week later I heard back about the "particle size inconsistencies," I brought it up as part of another thread here and a few other people chimed in with similar stories.
...I guess "chunk" and "glob" are just different, if informal, ways of saying "particle." Murakami was not reached for comment as to which of their meshes has been certified to transfer chunks and globs of plastisol .
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That's pretty much exactly the problem. We couldn't get an entire round of shirts off the press before we had to extremely thoroughly clean out the stencil...even brought Camie 480 screen opener back into the mix after years of swearing it off in an effort to detoxify and green up the shop.
We started using it because it worked, was phtalate free and we were getting a great price as the first big customer from an upstart supplier.
They used the term "particle size," even brought in someone who was described to me as one of their "chemistry experts," who did know his stuff in regards to screen printing. Asked all the right questions. But once we got to mesh aperture, thread diameter, thread count and he said "Murakami 150S?" I nodded, all of that expertise went right out the window with a concerned "ohhhhhh." A week later I heard back about the "particle size inconsistencies," I brought it up as part of another thread here and a few other people chimed in with similar stories.
...I guess "chunk" and "glob" are just different, if informal, ways of saying "particle." Murakami was not reached for comment as to which of their meshes has been certified to transfer chunks and globs of plastisol .
It gets even trickier as for some unexplained reason, most standard "chunk" and "glob" sizes are given in metric even when mesh sizes are U.S.! :P
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chunks..
this is screen printing.. not a minecraft game.
they passed off a bad grind and C grade resins to you, the printer and then tried to tell you it was your fault... wow
wilflex or rutland is all ive ever used, this is why.
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chunks..
this is screen printing.. not a minecraft game.
they passed off a bad grind and C grade resins to you, the printer and then tried to tell you it was your fault... wow
wilflex or rutland is all ive ever used, this is why.
Interestingly, QMC, Rutland, and Union are now just different flavors from the same ice cream company, though granted, butterfat content can vary.
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I think just putting the blame only on the white is not correct. There are probably several factors to be taken into account. Screen tension and off contact might be an issue and not level pallets.
We are using Wilflex Olympia white and recently added Wilflex Epic Amazing Brite White which is a great ink to have.
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Holy cow Dan, they sent out a guy to try to troubleshoot the problem? That's crazy, I'm glad they didn't do that with me when I started complaining. I don't know that I would have been so diplomatic like you were. I would have likely gotten offended that were going to such measures to find blame somewhere else when I know there is a HIGH probability that they knew there were issues with ink out in the field before they came to your shop. Surely there was another reason for his visit?
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Pretty optomistic to assume they were sending people out to help troubleshoot.
Probably gauging how many customers actually knew they had problem inks.
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Holy cow Dan, they sent out a guy to try to troubleshoot the problem? That's crazy, I'm glad they didn't do that with me when I started complaining. I don't know that I would have been so diplomatic like you were. I would have likely gotten offended that were going to such measures to find blame somewhere else when I know there is a HIGH probability that they knew there were issues with ink out in the field before they came to your shop. Surely there was another reason for his visit?
I didn't feel offended at all. Relieved, actually. Since this is screen printing and I run the screen department all fingers started out pointing at me.
Once he realized that we have our process tuned to a high degree and we know what we are talking about it was just an open conversation to get to the bottom of it.
...and yes, I think it was more a good will visit than anything. I forget the guys official title but he came in for a visit with our supplier guy...and they were definitely aware of the situation.
Apparently the three brands haven't really shared their best practices and I imagine their manufacturing lines are still almost entirely separate still.
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I should point out my comment was from experience with other brands, re-reading it I wouldn't want anyone to read into it that I've had such issues with reps or inks from QCM--or Union, Wilflex, IC, etc.
I have had a few experiences with reps and suppliers who acted like what was happening couldn't happen with THEIR product, even though switching away from it miraculously fixes the problem--which is what makes me think they get away with this type of stuff a lot more than we'd like to think. Of course there are hundreds of interdependent variables involved, and it's easy to miss some of the subtle changes in process because of them.
Anyway going back to the OP--you get time to try any of those suggestions yet, Stitches?
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I would adjust the angle of your squeegee and speed first and run a few prints to get the ink flowing nicely. Second, I would try a different ink, personally, I like to use OneStroke for my white inks, they are out of the container pretty much ready to use without having to stir it like crazy and almost break goop scoops trying to get the ink moving before it gets put into the screen. I also have a warming tank I keep between 85-90 degrees, and place the ink in it for about an hour or 2 before printing starts (stirring periodically). It's the little things that could fix the screen clearing issue pretty quick. Maybe the mesh isn't up to tension anymore which is causing the ink to gunk up and get stuck in the knuckles of the mesh. White ink is tricky. Also, minimal off contact is key.
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Update..... I am so behind on responding to stuff here. I want to thank everyone for all the information that was given. The first thing I did was order some Wilflex Quick white and that cured the problem. Nice, smooth, even prints. Printing with an automatic is a dream.
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chunks..
this is screen printing.. not a minecraft game.
they passed off a bad grind and C grade resins to you, the printer and then tried to tell you it was your fault... wow
wilflex or rutland is all ive ever used, this is why.
Interestingly, QMC, Rutland, and Union are now just different flavors from the same ice cream company, though granted, butterfat content can vary.
QCM inks have been a bit of a crapshoot since Rutland took over, often very different batch to batch.