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screen printing => General Screen Printing => Topic started by: bimmridder on October 12, 2011, 04:54:53 PM
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Curious how everyone is printing on manual presses these days. Thanks for taking the time to read and answer.
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pushing everything but 1/2 tones
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Push.
What would be a benefit for pulling on halftones?
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I voted push, and though it's true, I am a convert, I remembered I only push on full sized (two handed) jobs. I still pull on small crest prints.
I didn't want to answer "both" because of the two-direction implication that asks for trouble.
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Push for everything. Never done different.
Sometimes with fine halftones, you can push with too much pressure and blow out the halftone. Its operator error, as most things are, but some find it easier just to pull rather than adjust their print technique. That's my take on it at least.
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Push.
What would be a benefit for pulling on halftones?
what prozyan said
Also like Frog I'll pull one handed prints (left chest, sleeve prints, LS prints,tag prints etc.)
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Pull for me. Didn't like the results when I push. I'm sure it probably has to do with my screens and/or technique, but I always get better results pulling, so I don't plan on changing it up.
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Pull. Tried the push technique, I think it sucks.
:P
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I went back to pull for my WB as It gets more ink into the shirt where a push puts it onto the shirt better.
When I print Plastisol and my WB tag prints, I push.
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For those of you suffering halftone or other control problems with a push, you're probably, as Sky Saxon said back in '67, pushin' too hard
The Seeds - Pushin' Too Hard (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhPvkzFJhnk#)
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haha I got a good laugh on that one.
It just seems that the squeegee is at an awkward position when you push. It also gets my squeegees too messy.
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Push plastisol pull waterbased.
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we use the auto.
;D
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haha I got a good laugh on that one.
It just seems that the squeegee is at an awkward position when you push. It also gets my squeegees too messy.
Do not change anything about the squeegee angle or direction (except for the direction of the stroke)
You are now printing with the trailing edge of the back side.
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Thanks for the votes and comments. Hope they keep coming in.
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I voted push, and though it's true, I am a convert, I remembered I only push on full sized (two handed) jobs. I still pull on small crest prints.
I didn't want to answer "both" because of the two-direction implication that asks for trouble.
"I'm with you fellers"
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I only use the manual for 1 handed jobs. Or I use the shower. :o
Everything else gets done on das auto.
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For me it depends on the print, the ink and size of the job if I pull or push...on the most part I push when I,m not working on the auto.
Darryl
(Ice T sez, I,m your pusher man)
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Okay, the answer "Both" needs some clarification.
Do you eight who clicked this choice mean sometimes pull and sometimes push (perhaps like my explanation) or do you actually both push and pull on the same print? (which I would warn newbies is a recipe for disaster)
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I am assuming, although I know I shouldn't, that both would mean both styles, but not on the same print. Agreed, a recipe for problems if you did that.
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Push plastisol, pull waterbase & discharge
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Here is a perspective from a guy who rarely prints any time in a given year.
I know we have a group of people that are pushing for the PUSH factor these days. Some of the "gurus's" also promote it.
When you look at those types of "guru's", they are generally those who cater to the NEW printers in regard to selling them product that they offer and are mostly a "manual type printer themselves. Most of their customers are manual printers.
I see pulling as being more consistent (when dealing with halftone printing). When you push, most of the pressure is at the front, as you reach the back, the pressure is eased up (even while you are trying to stay consistent in pressure across the print stroke.
So for the same reasons we need sharp squeegee's, level platens, and non warped frames, any time you deal with fine detail and need consistent prints on a wide area of consistent tone, it's more beneficial to print with a pull.
A tell tail test would be to print a fill of halftone at about 50lpi, 305 mesh with...70% solid halftone fill, extend that image area out to your max print size. Use black ink on white. You will see where you're heaviest pressure is at or if you are consistent.
when pushing, you will end up leaving less pressure on the end as it gets further away from you (unless your order is only for 12 shirts). You would think the same issues would apply if pulling, but you put your most pressure down when (starting). So if you start from the back and pull, you end up (closest to you) and therefore also are more apt to have a steadier amount of pressure verses pushing.
This, I will say, I don't know for a fact. :) Just my common sense theory.
Do any of the AUTO's (PUSH)? That would be with the squeegee angle at the same angle, but going in the opposite direction?
As I see them in my memory, they pull. Can you change the direction of the stroke?
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Here is a perspective from a guy who rarely prints any time in a given year.
I know we have a group of people that are pushing for the PUSH factor these days. Some of the "gurus's" also promote it.
When you look at those types of "guru's", they are generally those who cater to the NEW printers in regard to selling them product that they offer and are mostly a "manual type printer themselves. Most of their customers are manual printers.
I see pulling as being more consistent (when dealing with halftone printing). When you push, most of the pressure is at the front, as you reach the back, the pressure is eased up (even while you are trying to stay consistent in pressure across the print stroke.
So for the same reasons we need sharp squeegee's, level platens, and non warped frames, any time you deal with fine detail and need consistent prints on a wide area of consistent tone, it's more beneficial to print with a pull.
A tell tail test would be to print a fill of halftone at about 50lpi, 305 mesh with...70% solid halftone fill, extend that image area out to your max print size. Use black ink on white. You will see where you're heaviest pressure is at or if you are consistent.
when pushing, you will end up leaving less pressure on the end as it gets further away from you (unless your order is only for 12 shirts). You would think the same issues would apply if pulling, but you put your most pressure down when (starting). So if you start from the back and pull, you end up (closest to you) and therefore also are more apt to have a steadier amount of pressure verses pushing.
This, I will say, I don't know for a fact. :) Just my common sense theory.
Do any of the AUTO's (PUSH)? That would be with the squeegee angle at the same angle, but going in the opposite direction?
As I see them in my memory, they pull. Can you change the direction of the stroke?
Good comments Dan. Very true.
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As you said, Dan you have little hands-on experience.
Also, we in the trenches often get large solid areas to print as man does not live by halftones alone.
I think that for most manual printers the most common complaints or problems are getting tired, an/or getting uneven pressure and not clearing the screen. (Often the issues are connected)
These are the very issues that pushing seems to handle for us.
Rather than just wrists and elbows and the arm muscles, we have our whole bodies involved in the stroke now, using both our whole upper body as well as a step if we wish.
And yes, I push my 280 mesh 55 line halftone jobs as well.
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I'm curious those that tried pushing and didnt like the outcome, was you pulling the print first before giving pushing a shot? I remember the first time I pushed I was in the middle of job and getting tired like Frog said and tried pushing. The result was a smeared print , but after cleaning the bottom and pushing again it was fine. Pushing is a godsend for those long pring runs even more so for thicker inks. 90% of my work is 12x18 or larger, pulling does a number on your arms and wrist.
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Okay, the answer "Both" needs some clarification.
Do you eight who clicked this choice mean sometimes pull and sometimes push (perhaps like my explanation) or do you actually both push and pull on the same print? (which I would warn newbies is a recipe for disaster)
Frog you are most correct pushing and pulling on the same job causes missprints, if I start a manual job pushing I stay pushing, if I start out pulling I continue to pull. On soft squeegees pushing is allmost impossible atleast with the ones I have.
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On soft squeegees pushing is allmost impossible atleast with the ones I have.
Are you holding the squeegee as I show in my simple diagram, using the trailing edge, or are you reversing it and having it collapse?
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i answered both but not on the same print.
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Rather than just wrists and elbows and the arm arm muscles, we have our whole bodies involved in the stroke now, using both our whole upper body as well as a step if we wish.
This is what causes the problems with fine detail and halftones. You are using bigger muscles to push, as well as body weight, so it is harder to fine tune the pressure needed. Most say they feel they have more control while pulling, and this is true because it is easier to graduate your pressure in small increments while pulling.
That said, once you have learned how to push correctly, using the correct pressure, there is no difference in print quality between pushing and pulling.
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1, As you said, Dan you have little hands-on experience.
2, Also, we in the trenches often get large solid areas to print as man does not live by halftones alone.
1, Yes, I said that, but it doesn't mean I am saying that I don't know. An architect does not need to have first been a concrete mixer or have ran a jack hammer in order to know how to build sky scrapers. So, "hands on experience" doesn't means as much as the value we generally put on it and it doesn't mean that I am wrong or right. It's just my side.
2, Those in the trenches who "often" get large solid areas to print (would be a believer in the PUSH technique) since they are the ones that this would benefit the most. Any of the imperfections I mentioned above would be hidden and go unnoticed. I am a believer that the push technique would be better for you ergonomically over longer print runs but I also believe that the over all production run would be less consistent with larger orders like a 6 color sim process of 144 or 500 shirts. It's a trade off.
I think that the push or pull is a choice. Like using a 156 or a 230. Each can be used and can get the same results depending on how you play it. Using one does not mean you are wrong for not using the other.
With pushing and using a hard sharp squeegee (what most should be using for sim process) like a 70 or 70/90/70, keeping your squeegee angle at a very high angle or almost vertical (to cut the ink it) would be very difficult to maintain consistency over any duration. My hunch is that those who PUSH also push at a much more angled back position (sort of laying it down towards you) more so than you should. This high angle is easier to maintain when pulling.
That is with little to no on hands printing experience this year and is solid information.
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Do any of the AUTO's (PUSH)? That would be with the squeegee angle at the same angle, but going in the opposite direction?
As I see them in my memory, they pull. Can you change the direction of the stroke?
I was thinking the same thing.
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How many autos suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome or other conditions developed by repetitious body movements? Although their parts wear, they don't seem to lose strength and control, and actually feel pain as a human may.
They also seem more stoic, even when close to breaking down, with few complaints, and little warning.
Me, I bitch and make sure that those around me know that my workload needs to be lightened! lol!
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How many autos suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome or other conditions developed by repetitious body movements? Although their parts wear, they don't seem to lose strength and control, and actually feel pain as a human may.
They also seem more stoic, even when close to breaking down, with few complaints, and little warning.
Me, I bitch and make sure that those around me know that my workload needs to be lightened! lol!
I hear you... I'm not saying pulling is easier, but I personally feel there is more control and better detail with pulling. I should try to master the push stroke though. I'm 22 and I have carpal tunnel, arthritis and sciatica... the savings account for the auto is growing though lol.
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I agree with Frog if it was just a matter of preference that's one thing but we're talking about your arms, wrist and your back. I feel lucky to have discovered the pushing method early on in my printing career/something like that...
My only complaint with pushing long jobs is the area between my thumb and pointer finger gets a little sore, but better than my arms and wrist.
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Bill Hood turned some pulling autos into pushing autos in a factory in MX. I believe he was very pleased with the results. I was a pusher, and I respectfully disagree that pulling gives you finer detail. I ran thousands of simulated process prints on manual presses over the years with outstanding results. if you have a sharp blade, quality screens, and the right angle, the results will be identical if not better by pushing.
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[quoteand I respectfully disagree that pulling gives you finer detail.
[/quote]
i think someone else may have included that language in a paragraph, but not necessarily meant that pulling produces better image quality. I myself say, that over time, from beginning of a long manual production order to the end, that you will get better results from pulling. (The better part) is in the consistency). Meaning, as you get to the middle of your long run, image quality may decrease due to lack of pressure (towards the back of the print) MORE than would see if pull ( and ending at the top towards to. That is really splitting hairs tho. You will have a nice looking production order either way. I'm just saying that long term production will produce (more good consistent results). I the end, one could say that this results in better quality over all.
Now, those who push and those who pull can both say "Well, I ran orders at 6 colors for 500 units all year last year and my stuff looked great! (It more than likely does look great. I don't argue that). I would ask, when set side by side, apples for apples, comparing the beginning of a run (with pulling and the beginning of a run with pushing)....and the same with the end of the run.
What one would look better than the other? I say the one where you are pulling. What one will you feel better with when done? Probably pushing. In the end, you can produce great image quality results using both methods.
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I actually suspect, that for two equal printers who have both mastered their favorite direction, that the puller, being far more tired and weak at the end of a long day, would be the one whose consistency would suffer.
But, it really is different for different printers. I'm old and broken down.
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Maybe on an 18" print that would be a problem, but it's doubtful that it will make any difference on a standard 12x12 image. The body naturally pushes better than it pulls. I'll take a quality pusher over a quality puller any day when running orders that are a few hundred pieces and 5-6 colors on high mesh. At the end the pusher will be in a much better place physically, and that translates to higher quality, more consistent prints.. Not too mention pushing is faster.
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[quote The body naturally pushes better than it pulls. [/quote]I don't dissagree. The body feels better. Thats improtant.
The print may change a bit due to less pressure at the back towards the machine...at the end of 500-6 color shirts (and that is what I am pointing out) but if everyone (customer and owner) is still happy at the end of the day and the printer feels great....then by all meansl.
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We push almost everything. Until the big dryer is setup we aren't running much wb but the times we do we also push. This goes for textile wb as well as flat stock, both of which get a soft flood on the pull.
With plastisol the push is preceded by a very hard flood/fill stroke done with the screen up out if the gate. That slower fill can be just as fatiguing or more so than the print. The push stroke is usually very quick and fairly light. Now that I'm addicted to thin thread mesh it's less a game of getting enough pressure and more about holding a very light and consistent stroke across the image.
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Bill Hood turned some pulling autos into pushing autos in a factory in MX. I believe he was very pleased with the results. I was a pusher, and I respectfully disagree that pulling gives you finer detail. I ran thousands of simulated process prints on manual presses over the years with outstanding results. if you have a sharp blade, quality screens, and the right angle, the results will be identical if not better by pushing.
I don't doubt it, I can't image you putting out a print that doesn't look incredible. I've seen videos of people doing high detail work with the push stroke and it was immaculate work. I should of specified. I personally noticed that I get better detail from pulling, and that is probably do to what you mentioned above. I'm sure my screens aren't tight enough, my squeegees are sharp, but I never tried it long enough to master the angle. When I get my hands on some newman rollers and new triple duro squeegees, I'll give it a try again. Roughly what angle do you guys recommend? I have an 1100 piece order coming in next week and although it is only 1 color, print flash print white, It'd be much easier if I could get away with pushing this job.
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Print a coule hundred giveaway shirts and push em all. That's how my boss taught me to print. He pointed at three cases of shirts, handed me the films, told me I was the printer starting on Monday and to have it figured out by then.
One of the scariest things for me going automatic was trying to make the machine do things my hands and body naturally did. The adjustments you naturally make, angle, pressure, speed. It takes practice, but I promise you fighting the push stroke for a few weeks is a hell of alot better than years of pulling.
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Good point. I still have a few years left on the manual before I can jump into the auto world, so I'll start working on that push stroke soon. I'm buying a bunch of 18x20 roller frames next week along with some S-Thread so hopefully this helps me in the transition. Plus my new pallets from Action just came in today.
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2nd Challenger movie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2zTs4K1dAE#ws)
Do they have this thing running backwards or is that how it was done on the old machines?
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I've seen that done on newer machines. I believe sometimes it is better to run the auto like that on oversized designs. At least that is what someone told me when I asked about it.
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My Challenger prints that way. It works great except for the on the seam tramp stamps. For those I wish it went in the other direction. Other than that there is no difference in the way they print.
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I've set our auto up to push stroke one day when I was bored. It took me a while to get the squeegee settings just right. I think that I could fabricate a squeegee that would print perfectly using the push stroke if I had time to sit down and think about it. I didn't have the tools to measure ink deposit at the time I did the push stroke experiment but it seemed to me at the time that the ink desposit was significantly more. If we ever slow down enough for me to have an hour to play around I'll mess around with pushing on the auto and actually measure the results this time.
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I took the time to convert a formula head to print a push stroke when I was back in NY. It took awhile to switch some parts around but when I got it working, it was very finicky and to much squeegee pressure by even a single twist had the blade bending over. I did some printing with it for some 1/2 tone work and when I used a good tension screen, it did print some nice dots but nothing awesome or better than the head next to it pulling.
The older machines work wonders when you put high tension screens in them and parallel the pallets.