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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: Denis Kolar on October 17, 2011, 12:51:16 PM
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Would it be beneficial to have a tension meter if you only run static screens?
I have a chance to buy Newman TM for a reasonable amount.
Thanks
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At the least, you would be able to set a standard where you decide not to use a screen any more. When it reaches "X" Newtons. it's time to retire it. Do you see retensionables in your future? If it was a good deal. I'd buy it.
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Buy it. I think you'll be amazed how low tensions are in statics.
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Buy it. I think you'll be amazed how low tensions are in statics.
Then you will know by your prints that screen tension alone is but one of many parameters for a good print. If you are able to print high detail with your statics then maybe you can spend your money on other things in your shop instead of the almighty reten.
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I tried retens, I didn't have great luck with them. I think our press is a little too far out of tune for them. I even replaced all the platens and leveled everything, but I have some funky things goind on with registration and off contact right now. I might revisit them later. But I get better prints off well tensioned statics.
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Buy it. I think you'll be amazed how low tensions are in statics.
Then you will know by your prints that screen tension alone is but one of many parameters for a good print. If you are able to print high detail with your statics then maybe you can spend your money on other things in your shop instead of the almighty reten.
No crap.
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I tried retens, I didn't have great luck with them. I think our press is a little too far out of tune for them. I even replaced all the platens and leveled everything, but I have some funky things goind on with registration and off contact right now. I might revisit them later. But I get better prints off well tensioned statics.
What press is it?
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1999 Gauntlet
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In most cases a tension meter is a want more than a need...example I wanted one and bought one, used every now and then and I use statics, retens, panel frames just a mix of frames. I really don't think you need a tension meter to know when a mesh is headed to dump just a touch of the old finger and you got your answer. Now if your looking to have all your screens be the same in tension on every job you do yes.
Darryl
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1999 Gauntlet
Check the rod ends on your micros. If those are sloppy then they will move around on you. You may have to replace them if there is a lot of slop.
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They seem tight if you are talking about the ball joint itself. Is there a way to make sure they are good and tight other than taking pressure off and wiggling them around?
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Buy it. Then use it to cull out the lowest tensioned statics and start having a standard. Once you start using your highest tensioned screens on a regular basis, especially for those tougher jobs, then you'll start to realize the benefits of high tension.
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Buy it. Then use it to cull out the lowest tensioned statics and start having a standard. Once you start using your highest tensioned screens on a regular basis, especially for those tougher jobs, then you'll start to realize the benefits of high tension.
Not to jump on your case Alan, and maybe this should be another post, but what tension is "high"?
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Buy it. Then use it to cull out the lowest tensioned statics and start having a standard. Once you start using your highest tensioned screens on a regular basis, especially for those tougher jobs, then you'll start to realize the benefits of high tension.
Not to jump on your case Alan, and maybe this should be another post, but what tension is "high"?
Thanks everybody on the comments.
I might be buying his tonight, very close to it.
Sonny, I believe Alan said highest and not high tension. Even if I have most screens in the low teens, I could benefit to know that my higher tension screens are @ 17-19 range and could benefit from using those instead of the ones that are 12-13.
17-19 Newtons is not high, but it is highest and the best that I have in that case
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Yes buy it. It's an invaluable tool for pre-press operations.
I've seen many times the tension on a static isn't even enough to get the meter to read it.. 17-19 is pretty high.. most static's end up around the 10-14
range.
We put a meter on a BRAND NEW static at the Ft Worth show.. for a 110 it read 16n..
High tension is anything over 40n.
The optimum range for decent printing is in the 25n to 35n range.
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I actually have two in my shop. One we use to check every screen as it goes through. Also using it for making new screens. My other one is locked away so I can pull it out if the other one is damaged or needs to go back for recalibration. The point is we use it religiously every day.
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Yes buy it. It's an invaluable tool for pre-press operations.
I've seen many times the tension on a static isn't even enough to get the meter to read it.. 17-19 is pretty high.. most static's end up around the 10-14
range.
We put a meter on a BRAND NEW static at the Ft Worth show.. for a 110 it read 16n..
High tension is anything over 40n.
The optimum range for decent printing is in the 25n to 35n range.
I'll give you 25n. The one glaring omission to this discussion has always been the capability of ones equipment to hold the parameters needed to benefit from anything higher. All I am saying is that make sure the equipment you have can hold the parameters before you go gung-ho on "high" tension.
I have always said, that with the exception of off the wall HD printing, that I could print any award winning print on a Precision oval with wood screens with the mesh attached with staples.
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I have always said, that with the exception of off the wall HD printing, that I could print any award winning print on a Precision oval with wood screens with the mesh attached with staples.
This is true. However, you could print many more per hour, with better registration over the life of the screens, faster setups and less ink consumption leading to higher profits.
Just sayin...
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I have always said, that with the exception of off the wall HD printing, that I could print any award winning print on a Precision oval with wood screens with the mesh attached with staples.
This is true. However, you could print many more per hour, with better registration over the life of the screens, faster setups and less ink consumption leading to higher profits.
Just sayin...
I don't know ...them thar ovals fly... 8) 8)
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Why would you be jumping on my case with that question? That's a very hard question to answer but I would consider high tension to be contingent on the mesh specs and the maximum tension level that the manufacturer calls for. For example, a murakami smartmesh S thread would be "high" in the 25-28 newton level, low at 15 newtons and I wouldn't consider using it.
I've heard it a million times and I actually believe it when people say they can print great things with static aluminums that are 15-20 newtons, we've done it as well, but my argument will always be this: Imagine if you can do that quality of work with those screens, how much faster, cheaper and less problems could you have done it with "properly" high tensioned screens? High tension doesn't necessarily mean newman rollers or retensionable, but I've yet to see a static frame with mesh in it that I would consider high tension.
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Yes buy it. It's an invaluable tool for pre-press operations.
I've seen many times the tension on a static isn't even enough to get the meter to read it.. 17-19 is pretty high.. most static's end up around the 10-14
range.
We put a meter on a BRAND NEW static at the Ft Worth show.. for a 110 it read 16n..
High tension is anything over 40n.
The optimum range for decent printing is in the 25n to 35n range.
I'll give you 25n. The one glaring omission to this discussion has always been the capability of ones equipment to hold the parameters needed to benefit from anything higher. All I am saying is that make sure the equipment you have can hold the parameters before you go gung-ho on "high" tension.
I have always said, that with the exception of off the wall HD printing, that I could print any award winning print on a Precision oval with wood screens with the mesh attached with staples.
I'd love to see that print. I don't know if you've really seen many award winning prints lately Sonny, because I don't think you'd win even honorable mention with something you printed with those tools, much less an award.
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I have always said, that with the exception of off the wall HD printing, that I could print any award winning print on a Precision oval with wood screens with the mesh attached with staples.
This is true. However, you could print many more per hour, with better registration over the life of the screens, faster setups and less ink consumption leading to higher profits.
Just sayin...
I don't know ...them thar ovals fly... 8) 8)
Speed of the press itself has nothing to do with it.
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I approach my screen maintenance the same way I used to approach bicycle wheels when I was a shop mechanic.
A wheel has very few components. Hub, rim, spokes. The overall strength, durability and performance of the wheel is a balance of the quality of the components and the care in assembly and tuning.
A wheel performs best when maintained at it's highest maximum tension. That is, the tension that all of the combined components can handle without material failure. Typically, this is mostly dependent on rim strength.
When a wheel is correctly tuned at optimum tension, it resists the compression forces that are placed upon it. It is pre-stressed against the compression. This means less cyclic fatigue and failure. (note: a bike wheel with low tension does not ride better, and spoke failure due to fatigue will happen much faster....)
I treat my roller frames the same way. I tension them repeatedly till they are at or close to the highest tension that the mesh will hold and maintain. Like the spokes of a wheel, work hardening, re-tensioning and tuning to find the best tension will pull the mesh to it's max elongation. This will also pull the open areas to their max. I can print with very low off contact and I use much less ink, the coverage is better, the prints are sharper and I am less tired at the end of the day. (I print manually only)
I occasionally throw a static frame in the mix when I'm in a pinch and every time I regret it.
Used Newmans are cheap and they last for fricken ever. Mine look like they were used in the first gulf war and they hold tension and stay perfectly flat. On average they've cost me maybe $10-$15 each over statics.
So to the original question about the meter, yes buy it. Use it. Love it.
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I have always said, that with the exception of off the wall HD printing, that I could print any award winning print on a Precision oval with wood screens with the mesh attached with staples.
And I can cook a steak with a blowtorch and a pair of tongs.. :o
The only true high tension mesh is the Newman Roller Mesh.
S threads can't be classified as high tension and I'm starting to see they really aren't the cats meow for anything other than manual printing. They float around the 20-25 range and that's not enough tension to stop mesh deflection from both coating and printing. You have to get above 35n to get to the the point where the mesh stops deflecting and printing forces take on a whole new set of parameters.
Test this yourself. Buy yourself a 166 newman roller panel or bolt mesh and take it to it's max tension level of 63 newtons.. screw that, just goto 50n.
You just made a printing plate.. 50n equals 7200 lbs per sq inch!! The screen is so flat you won't be able to get it to bend around your warped wooden pallets, and if your press is so much as 3 thousands out of plane.. it won't print either.
The closer we get to a plate, the easier our printing becomes. Why do you think offset holds incredible detail.. They use a plate!
Like my sig says.. step it up
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Yes buy it. It's an invaluable tool for pre-press operations.
I've seen many times the tension on a static isn't even enough to get the meter to read it.. 17-19 is pretty high.. most static's end up around the 10-14
range.
We put a meter on a BRAND NEW static at the Ft Worth show.. for a 110 it read 16n..
High tension is anything over 40n.
The optimum range for decent printing is in the 25n to 35n range.
I'll give you 25n. The one glaring omission to this discussion has always been the capability of ones equipment to hold the parameters needed to benefit from anything higher. All I am saying is that make sure the equipment you have can hold the parameters before you go gung-ho on "high" tension.
I have always said, that with the exception of off the wall HD printing, that I could print any award winning print on a Precision oval with wood screens with the mesh attached with staples.
I'd love to see that print. I don't know if you've really seen many award winning prints lately Sonny, because I don't think you'd win even honorable mention with something you printed with those tools, much less an award.
I have seen many award winning prints. The one common denominator with any award winner is great art and great seps. the actual technique of printing is minor compared to great art and seps. Wasn't getting on your case hence the phrase I not to jump. I meant that. My point is that too much is made about one small part of the process. Are you going to SGIA?
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I have always said, that with the exception of off the wall HD printing, that I could print any award winning print on a Precision oval with wood screens with the mesh attached with staples.
And I can cook a steak with a blowtorch and a pair of tongs.. :o
or toast with a branding iron :o
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It's not looking good for me going to SGIA. We have simply too much work to be done for me to take a day or two off. We are so busy that I'm actually having to help the guys shoot screens, setup, teardown, box up and ship.
I love debating the tension topic. I disagree with you Sonny in that it's just another variable. I think it's one of the top 5. I have been thinking about the most important variables in screen printing and I go back and forth between about 10 different ones that I think are the most important 5, so it's always changing.
I "somewhat" disagree with John on the S thread mesh. I may hype it up but I do understand it isn't perfect and my attitude towards it may sound like I think it's the best thing since sliced bread which it's not. It does outperform the sefar and saati mesh we have hands down, in all categories except ink deposit thickness. It does lay down a more opaque deposit of ink however, with virtually no print pressure it seems. Sometimes I can print with such little pressure that the choppers don't want to go up and down. I'd like to mention that I like the newman roller mesh almost as much as the murakami. I do see your point about the mesh deflection, but I haven't noticed it on our screens but we've only got a handful of 110/71 and 150/48 and they are at 28 newtons. If they could make the S thread withstand 35-40 newtons I do think it would be perfect, and the cat's meow, meow what I mean?
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It does outperform the sefar and saati mesh we have hands down, in all categories except ink deposit thickness.
That's where i was going with it. It's good mesh, has great properties but it's lack of ink deposit will frustrate anyone other than an experienced user who understands thick stencil use. S thread has it's place in the screen room but isn't the end all go to daily mesh that it could be, and if they increase the threads, it ceases to be what it is. An easy mesh to push a thick opaque or white ink through.
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I think one reason why we haven't had much issue with the ink deposit is because our 150/48 have about a 50 micron eom. I agree that anyone that's just coating them with a 1/1 technique will get frustrated and might have to double stroke.
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Just a quick follow up. I have received my meter and I checked few screens.
110 wooden is @ 19 newtons
155 aluminum is @ 21 newtons
230 aluminum is @ 15 newtons
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Just a quick follow up. I have received my meter and I checked few screens.
110 wooden is @ 19 newtons
155 aluminum is @ 21 newtons
230 aluminum is @ 15 newtons
Are you getting decent prints and performance from those screens?
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I'm pretty new to Screen Printing, and I had some issues with printing white before.
Last few tomes, white looks a tot better and it is smoother that before. I think a got a bit better at printing and also ordered triple duro squeegees (60/90/60) for white ink.
When I got more comfortable with setting up the screens on the press, with offcontact, coating and exposing screens I think that printing improved.
Now, when I learned some more about printing, I can say that I can not complain about the screens. Before when I new less than now, even the better screens would not help me a lot. When I ordered meter, I was hoping not to see screens in the low teens.
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I'm looking at replacing my old Newman tension meter, it was manufactured in 1989. I've been looking at an alternative to the Newman (something a little less pricey). Anyone here using the Shur-Loc or Tetko meters or have any feedback on them?
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I'm looking at replacing my old Newman tension meter, it was manufactured in 1989. I've been looking at an alternative to the Newman (something a little less pricey). Anyone here using the Shur-Loc or Tetko meters or have any feedback on them?
Why do away with the "Cadillac" of meters? Why not just get your Newman refurbished if it's tired?
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I'm looking at replacing my old Newman tension meter, it was manufactured in 1989. I've been looking at an alternative to the Newman (something a little less pricey). Anyone here using the Shur-Loc or Tetko meters or have any feedback on them?
Why do away with the "Cadillac" of meters? Why not just get your Newman refurbished if it's tired?
I'd send it to newman and have them go over it and it will be as good as new for way less money than a new one, plus it will be better than some cheaper alternative.
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chances are is was built better than most of them out there. And probably in the USA.
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Of course the meter is the "cadillac". This meter was recalibrated and recertified in June 2010. I'm primarily the only one that uses it. As far as I know it has been taken care of and not mishandled. Now the needle sticks, the feet and the plunger bar are loose. I don't want to spend the $90 to have it refurbed every 12-18 months.
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just to add here - I was a static guy, then went to all panelframes. they averaged 15 newtons, I think the highest panelframe was around 17. We were getting blurry prints around outlines and all sorts of issues. granted my press is not 100% perfect like the day it was made - I think we have it pretty damn close though, for being a '94 gauntlet. at the moment, I am stretching 15 brand new M3's up to 35-40 newton's. my white is whiter. My outlines are crisper. my reg is faster. my prints are way better. Higher quality mesh is helping too, I didn't really understand how crappy the mesh is on those panelframes. I'm not saying rollers are the end all -but for me and our goals - these are a great start to get spectacular prints. My thinking is, all the BIG shops use them - they did the R&D on it, they use them for a reason, learn from them. Let technology make your life easier. I can perform surgery with a dull butter knife but I would rather go with the laser. . .I I'll soon post up all my panelframes for sale once my collection of M3's grows. . .
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just to add here - I was a static guy, then went to all panelframes. they averaged 15 newtons, I think the highest panelframe was around 17. We were getting blurry prints around outlines and all sorts of issues. granted my press is not 100% perfect like the day it was made - I think we have it pretty damn close though, for being a '94 gauntlet. at the moment, I am stretching 15 brand new M3's up to 35-40 newton's. my white is whiter. My outlines are crisper. my reg is faster. my prints are way better. Higher quality mesh is helping too, I didn't really understand how crappy the mesh is on those panelframes. I'm not saying rollers are the end all -but for me and our goals - these are a great start to get spectacular prints. My thinking is, all the BIG shops use them - they did the R&D on it, they use them for a reason, learn from them. Let technology make your life easier. I can perform surgery with a dull butter knife but I would rather go with the laser. . .I I'll soon post up all my panelframes for sale once my collection of M3's grows. . .
Sounds like we have another convert, that's good to hear Homer. I have been preaching the types of benefits we've seen with higher tensions and it looks like Homer is going to reap those same rewards. Do us a favor and try and track how much faster your setup times are with the newmans.
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Don Newman has decided my meter is too old and worn to have it recalibrated. The estimated life span of a well cared for meter is 15-18 years, mine made it 23 years. They are willing to give me a trade in value of about $70. Sounds like a fair deal, I just wish they would have told me this back in 2010, that would have saved me $90. Looks like I'm getting the new 1-E meter for Christmas.
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that's pretty fair.
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And I can cook a steak with a blowtorch and a pair of tongs.. :o
Oh, you do that too? no way!
I agree with John on the 'plate' concept. Trouble is, most screen printing equipment as well as the mesh, excepting the roller mesh, cannot consistently run day in day out at the tolerances necessary to take full advantage of this. Don was just waaaaay far ahead of his time with the high tension concept. Ultimately, once the tech is there to make stronger, thinner threads and if equipment is offered that can hold the tolerances, you could reap massive benefits from this and it could bring our printing method up into a higher level in the technical sense. We just aren't there yet though. It's mostly true that anything over 35-40n isn't worth bothering with unless you have high-end equipment that is religiously maintained. The change from 14-22n over to 26-35 is a world of improvement however.
I also agree with Sonny in that good art makes good prints. If you have some bad-ass artwork, you're stacking the deck for yourself. Amazing prints are made diy everyday and it ain't the ink or the screens or the gear that made it so. Look at artists like Aaron Horkey. Dude is hand cutting rubylith and using opaqueing pens and having other dudes print up many of his designs on old American presses with static frames and speedball inks. And they are effing gorgeous prints, sell for a high dollar and totally give me a screen printing boner. Google it.
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just to add here - I was a static guy, then went to all panelframes. they averaged 15 newtons, I think the highest panelframe was around 17. We were getting blurry prints around outlines and all sorts of issues. granted my press is not 100% perfect like the day it was made - I think we have it pretty damn close though, for being a '94 gauntlet. at the moment, I am stretching 15 brand new M3's up to 35-40 newton's. my white is whiter. My outlines are crisper. my reg is faster. my prints are way better. Higher quality mesh is helping too, I didn't really understand how crappy the mesh is on those panelframes. I'm not saying rollers are the end all -but for me and our goals - these are a great start to get spectacular prints. My thinking is, all the BIG shops use them - they did the R&D on it, they use them for a reason, learn from them. Let technology make your life easier. I can perform surgery with a dull butter knife but I would rather go with the laser. . .I I'll soon post up all my panelframes for sale once my collection of M3's grows. . .
Good to hear that Homer, keep us updated on your progress. Show us some pictures of your work on roller frames!
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What is the cost to get totally set up with roller frames? I am talking the right amount of frames for a starting auto shop, the right mesh counts, the table and all the other whoopty woo that goes along with it. Oh and then how long does it take to get to the point where you really know what you are doing with them. I imagine switching to rollers is kinda the same as going from manual printing to auto printing. I am thinking you could easily be 10K deep when all is said and done. Am I far off? I am not arguing that they are better and they are an investment just wanting to know what is the investment and the learning curve.
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What is the cost to get totally set up with roller frames? I am talking the right amount of frames for a starting auto shop, the right mesh counts, the table and all the other whoopty woo that goes along with it. Oh and then how long does it take to get to the point where you really know what you are doing with them. I imagine switching to rollers is kinda the same as going from manual printing to auto printing. I am thinking you could easily be 10K deep when all is said and done. Am I far off? I am not arguing that they are better and they are an investment just wanting to know what is the investment and the learning curve.
This isn't exactly the answer to your question, but you can get yourself started for under $1500.
tension meter: $300
tool kit: $325
12 MZX auto frames: $625 ($875 for M3's)
mesh for 12 screens: $60
a table is very nice, but not a must to start out.
keep in mind you can always find used frames to keep adding to your collection
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Like you said, no easy answer, but 12 screens?
I would advise someone with a four color manual to have more than that on hand. I guess that it comes down to how many colors one generally prints ((and of course the machine's capability), but I would feel a lot more comfortable with at least twice that.
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Like you said, no easy answer, but 12 screens?
I would advise someone with a four color manual to have more than that on hand. I guess that it comes down to how many colors one generally prints ((and of course the machine's capability), but I would feel a lot more comfortable with at least twice that.
I was taking into account that he would have all his statics which he is currently using. I meant more so as a starting point of $1500 you can have a dozen screens and the tools to get started with (using both static and retensionable) and as his budget allows he could add more or keep on the lookout for used frames (appx $30 used).
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What is the cost to get totally set up with roller frames? I am talking the right amount of frames for a starting auto shop, the right mesh counts, the table and all the other whoopty woo that goes along with it. Oh and then how long does it take to get to the point where you really know what you are doing with them. I imagine switching to rollers is kinda the same as going from manual printing to auto printing. I am thinking you could easily be 10K deep when all is said and done. Am I far off? I am not arguing that they are better and they are an investment just wanting to know what is the investment and the learning curve.
This isn't exactly the answer to your question, but you can get yourself started for under $1500.
tension meter: $300
tool kit: $325
12 MZX auto frames: $625 ($875 for M3's)
mesh for 12 screens: $60
a table is very nice, but not a must to start out.
keep in mind you can always find used frames to keep adding to your collection
What is the difference between MZX and M3s?
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MZX are one square bar. M3 are all round bars.
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Ok I just researched a little. I have seen some people having trouble keeping the frames flat and not bowed, is this because of the lack of a roller table? Also I seen they have mesh panels for them, it seems expensive, is anyone using those or are most using rolls of mesh?
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You don't need a roller table to keep them flat, just a flat table. The roller table just really speeds up the whole process to apply the mesh, tension, etc.
Panels are fast and more $ but the stretching and tension is more consistent with no need to soften corners. Panels become cost effective in the decreased ripped mesh and fast setup they allow.
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costs:
USED tension meter = 100.00
USED M3's = 20-30ea.
table (I bought the green screen table, brand new it's 400.00, I paid 150.00)
mesh - 100.00 goes a long way, then upgrade to panels down the road
Torque wrench - 35.00 @ harbor freight
1500- 2k will get you everything you need for around 30 screens
I am buying all new screens, no dents, weak spots, stripped threads or anything to worry about. the learning curve isn't too bad, I just had a 305 pop while sitting in the rack after I coated it. not too sure what happened there, I must have not softened the corner enough or something. it was "s" mesh ? so i think it may be that brittle mesh Al was dealing with.
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What is the cost to get totally set up with roller frames? I am talking the right amount of frames for a starting auto shop, the right mesh counts, the table and all the other whoopty woo that goes along with it. Oh and then how long does it take to get to the point where you really know what you are doing with them. I imagine switching to rollers is kinda the same as going from manual printing to auto printing. I am thinking you could easily be 10K deep when all is said and done. Am I far off? I am not arguing that they are better and they are an investment just wanting to know what is the investment and the learning curve.
Gerry a 36 frame kit and roller master everything brand new is going to run around $7,500... but as the others have said, there are some good used frame deals out there.
After a good 6 months you should be very familiar with how to work with the rollers. From tension levels, to work hardening the mesh, to keeping screens flat.
The transition to rollers is much easier when you start out with a roller master as well.
As Frog said, starting with 12 frames is really low and while it can be done, it's much better to start out with say 24 or 36. In my opinion, it's much better to either be an all roller frame shop or an all static shop. I know some out there have some of both, but using the two sets of frames can be a difficult way to go.
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it's much better to either be an all roller frame shop or an all static shop. I know some out there have some of both, but using the two sets of frames can be a difficult way to go.
I agree with this, having one frame std and one size will make your shop more efficient. If your OC changes between frames, then mixing frames in a job will be difficult. Different screen sizes means different handling for each size as well.
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Maybe I will start building up some inventory over the next year or so. Buying used frames seems like you could save 40% or so over new. Besides stripped/rounded bolts what else should you look for? I dont fully understand the corner softening thing. And why its not necessary when using the panels? What is the life span of a panel vs roll mesh that you cut and stretch?
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The panels from Shur-Loc are pre-softened, in that they're cut and glued to the plastic strips that snap into the frame channels in such a way so as to relieve the corners, which is where most tears occur when loading and tensioning bolt mesh. As for stripped bolts on used frames, the only way to find out is to get them. Over half my stuff is used, and the only complaint I have with used is they're often encrusted with so much crud and mung that the time spent cleaning them up almost makes it not worth the savings. If you're paying over $25 or so to have used, dirty frames shipped, it's almost more worthwhile to shop around and buy new. I've bought a dozen new over the last few years, and it beats trying to strip the crap off used.
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I hear ya, over the last 2 years there is so much equipment that I bought that I thought would be good and it ended up giving me more headache so if I were smart I would probably buy new just so I know whatever goes wrong is because of me.
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A couple of tidbits.
I have somewhere between 75-100 Newman's. I bought them all used. Of them all, only one is trash. There are maybe 10 more that the bolts were pretty rusty. The good side to buying used is they tend to run you half the price. But the bad side is they do come with some needed labor. Often removing the locking strips can be quite a task, as well as removing tape and cleaning old ink off of them. So if you are a very busy one man shop it may not be worth the savings. But if you have down time or a reclaimer with time on his/her hands it can be well worth it. I think the vast majority can be cleaned up and are perfectly useable.
Second, you will probably want to decide weather or not you are going to go MZX or M3 before you start buying. They use different size wrenches. Not that big of a deal by hand, but the roller table is made for one or the other. I believe the M3's are made to handle higher tension without bowing (don't quote me on that) but the MZX should hold high enough tensions for 95% of shops out there. The MZX's are easier to find used and also easier to be found with a square back if you are looking for them that way.
The mesh panels make life very simple, but you will find people who prefer stretching bolt mesh (John Sheridan). But I think the panels will help the learning curve.
Flattening them is pretty simple. Just have a strong table that is flat and smooth (or a stretching table).
I will agree that you are better off being all static or all retensionable, but if the budget does not allow, there is no time like the present to start collecting them. However, I would not mix them on the same job. Tons of beautiful shirts are printed without them everyday (I think Pierre uses statics), but it becomes a real nice way to help control a big variable. You rarely read about someone who made the switch and goes back to statics.
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You rarely read about someone who made the switch and goes back to statics.
Nope, apparently they go under and supply the used buyers! lol!
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You rarely read about someone who made the switch and goes back to statics.
Nope, apparently they go under and supply the used buyers! lol!
hahaha good point! I mean they are always readily available on the used market!
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You rarely read about someone who made the switch and goes back to statics.
Nope, apparently they go under and supply the used buyers! lol!
hahaha good point! I mean they are always readily available on the used market!
And sometimes brand-spanking new. Roller frames, unfortunately are not "plug and play" and take a holistic commitment. Some press manufacturers to this very day still don't even bother to consider the use of these frames with their taller, round tubes and increased weight. Ask me how I know this....
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Ok, how do you know this?
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The manual press we just picked up a few months ago needed and still needs more modifications to use with standard m3 roller frames. It's like they were unaware of the possibility and built it for statics only.
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Aren't there blocks you can put on the roller frames so any press will hold them? There used be something like that out there.
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Aren't there blocks you can put on the roller frames so any press will hold them? There used be something like that out there.
There are, but they don't work particularly well. In my experience they end up with a lot of play in pitch.
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Yes there are clamp adapters and they are nice for presses that use a flat piece of tooling plate to clamp. We have a bucket full of them but this press does not have clearance, even after modifying the studs on the air clamps for adapters. On fact, even with the mods I made we can only use the manual clamps and that is without the mesh protectors we normally use.
The springs on the heads are also unable to lift the weight of an M3 and still bring in down to the buck eye leveler properly.