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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: Shanarchy on March 22, 2016, 08:43:14 AM
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Anyone look at one of these yet? Thoughts?
I was looking at it at the ISS show in AC. I found it very interesting. It's about $15K, which makes it an actual option for small shops. Uses an HP print head. They said they didn't have any in the field yet, but were getting ready to ship out around 20 (or something like that). I'd love to see how they perform out there.
http://www.lawsonsp.com/screen-printing-equipment/digital-equipment/express-jet-printers/focus-cts (http://www.lawsonsp.com/screen-printing-equipment/digital-equipment/express-jet-printers/focus-cts)
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I just talked to them out of curiosity at the Long Beach show and they told me that they were still working out issue with the rip but maybe they've taken care of that. The one thing I didn't care for is that in their advertisement it says "up to 55lpi" but you can't beat the price point for a shop that doesn't try to achieve anything higher than that.
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Is it same unit as the one from Exile and Resolute DTG (UK)?
Or roughly the same...
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Lawson said they had a few in bigger shops doing Beta testing and they were now ready for the market.
What are the I-image's doing for max LPI?
I'm not seeing the Resolute one on line, but I'm looking at the Exile Freestyler. Both use a HP head, but I'm not sure if they are the same HP heads. The Frestlyer also says you can swap the head/cartridges out to use as a DTG.
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What are the I-image's doing for max LPI?
I have the epson based and I go as high as 65 lpi sometimes if the print is smaller to get more detail. I've read on here that some are going much higher. Don't get me wrong, 55 lpi covers probably 80 % of the process jobs we print.
I'm just happy to know that some of the dts systems out there are a bit more affordable because as far as I'm concerned we will never be with out one.
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Yes, it is the same as all those companies. It is produced or designed for them by a company in Italy.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I like this lot, at least from the video I`ve watched and the documents I`ve read. Gives smaller shops like mine the chances to use as well CTS without breaking the bank. Something other equipment manufacturers clearly have overlooked. Heads up to fringe players like Lawson for catering for the smaller shops too.
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I like this lot, at least from the video I`ve watched and the documents I`ve read. Gives smaller shops like mine the chances to use as well CTS without breaking the bank. Something other equipment manufacturers clearly have overlooked. Heads up to fringe players like Lawson for catering for the smaller shops too.
we have a Lawson trade in you can have for 10k.
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I like this lot, at least from the video I`ve watched and the documents I`ve read. Gives smaller shops like mine the chances to use as well CTS without breaking the bank. Something other equipment manufacturers clearly have overlooked. Heads up to fringe players like Lawson for catering for the smaller shops too.
we have a Lawson trade in you can have for 10k.
That was a good one Rich, made me laugh!
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Ask Danny about his Lawson.
Everyone gets real excited about price....I agree CTS has sticker shock. Knowing how important CTS has become for my shop the last thing you want to do is get a CTS and be all happy about saving money and it doesn't perform like it should. Not saying that is the case here... I am simply saying here we have a company who is basically the leader at nothing (no offense), releasing a CTS at a fraction of the cost of everyone else. So are we to believe they've struck gold and its going to change the game/price/etc. OR are they just releasing something else in just to increase sales without doing the homework on how to build a great machine?
My overall point is I would suggest some feedback from real world before jumping on that bandwagon.
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Same thing happened with DTG machines too..."I can get one for $12k" and next thing you know they are sitting in the corner collecting dust.
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Same thing happened with DTG machines too..."I can get one for $12k" and next thing you know they are sitting in the corner collecting dust.
Exactly. Let's see if anyone learned anything from that. I mean there was someone giving away Tjets at one point.....haha.
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Ask Danny about his Lawson.
Everyone gets real excited about price....I agree CTS has sticker shock. Knowing how important CTS has become for my shop the last thing you want to do is get a CTS and be all happy about saving money and it doesn't perform like it should. Not saying that is the case here... I am simply saying here we have a company who is basically the leader at nothing (no offense), releasing a CTS at a fraction of the cost of everyone else. So are we to believe they've struck gold and its going to change the game/price/etc. OR are they just releasing something else in just to increase sales without doing the homework on how to build a great machine?
My overall point is I would suggest some feedback from real world before jumping on that bandwagon.
I agree with some of these points. I wouldn't buy until I got real feed back of how they hold up in a true working environment.
I'm not naive enough to think that a $15k machine will be just as good as a $60K machine. So I am also curious of what the trade offs are.
But as a very small shop (I'm probably the smallest guy here), there is no way I could consider the cost of the nicer machines. At $15K though, it gives me something to think about. Hopefully somewhere down the line an i-image STE will be a viable option for my shop.
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I can't reiterate how old the printer heads are in that dts. We're talking HP 650C era printing technology. 1.5oz of ink in each cartridge you'll go through an unfathomable amount of them without a bulk solution.
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Ask Danny about his Lawson.
Everyone gets real excited about price....I agree CTS has sticker shock. Knowing how important CTS has become for my shop the last thing you want to do is get a CTS and be all happy about saving money and it doesn't perform like it should. Not saying that is the case here... I am simply saying here we have a company who is basically the leader at nothing (no offense), releasing a CTS at a fraction of the cost of everyone else. So are we to believe they've struck gold and its going to change the game/price/etc. OR are they just releasing something else in just to increase sales without doing the homework on how to build a great machine?
My overall point is I would suggest some feedback from real world before jumping on that bandwagon.
I agree with some of these points. I wouldn't buy until I got real feed back of how they hold up in a true working environment.
I'm not naive enough to think that a $15k machine will be just as good as a $60K machine. So I am also curious of what the trade offs are.
But as a very small shop (I'm probably the smallest guy here), there is no way I could consider the cost of the nicer machines. At $15K though, it gives me something to think about. Hopefully somewhere down the line an i-image STE will be a viable option for my shop.
I suspect those trade offs will be serious trade offs. I think the industry will be watching and if they did build something super good at 15k they will not be able to make them fast enough.
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I can't reiterate how old the printer heads are in that dts. We're talking HP 650C era printing technology. 1.5oz of ink in each cartridge you'll go through an unfathomable amount of them without a bulk solution.
I noticed that too. The cartridges seemed very small.
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I can't reiterate how old the printer heads are in that dts. We're talking HP 650C era printing technology. 1.5oz of ink in each cartridge you'll go through an unfathomable amount of them without a bulk solution.
I noticed that too. The cartridges seemed very small.
....and the trade offs show up already LOL.
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I think all DTS machines should cost 15k or less.
The current prices are crazy, these are printers not rockets.
I just bought a 12/14 MHM for,about the same prices the better DTS machines.
No logic and no justification for that.
You can get a 17" wide EPSON printer for about USD1000 with a rebate.
You cannot compare these to DTG where they tried to print white through heads that were never made for the thicker,white pigments and they needed constant cleaning and still blocked up.
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even older CMYK only DTG machines were $20k. It's all about market size. Epson might sell 50,000 wide format printers but maybe 500 CTS machines. Only screen printers would buy them.
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A trade off of a higher price in ink and a slower speed could be tolerable trade off for a smaller volume shop.
I would expect less printing issues with a CTS than a DTG. We (printers) have been running our own black dye ink cartridges/bulk systems for years with little issues. This is of course just my uninformed opinion and I'm sure there could still be a bunch of issues.
Out of curiosity where does the pricing start on the M&R i-image ST and STE models?
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A trade off of a higher price in ink and a slower speed could be tolerable trade off for a smaller volume shop.
I would expect less printing issues with a CTS than a DTG. We (printers) have been running our own black dye ink cartridges/bulk systems for years with little issues. This is of course just my uninformed opinion and I'm sure there could still be a bunch of issues.
Out of curiosity where does the pricing start on the M&R i-image ST and STE models?
Lower 50K's for I-Image ST 2636 (possibly high 40Ks, we have a 2 head). STE model 60K+.
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A trade off of a higher price in ink and a slower speed could be tolerable trade off for a smaller volume shop.
I would expect less printing issues with a CTS than a DTG. We (printers) have been running our own black dye ink cartridges/bulk systems for years with little issues. This is of course just my uninformed opinion and I'm sure there could still be a bunch of issues.
Out of curiosity where does the pricing start on the M&R i-image ST and STE models?
I agree in context of all things being equal meaning the 15k machine runs as well as the 50k machine other than ink costs/speed there would be no differences. Regardless of speed of one CTS to the next once a shop goes to CTS it becomes a pretty big deal that it works every day. So if there is an issue Lawson will need good support in place. Its logical to assume that cheaper parts could mean more down time. I am guessing though with a machine punching in at 15k, I highly doubt much will be budgeted for support......and that is important.
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I'm curious as to what advantage that makes the additional $35k price difference justifiable, if you were picking all over again.
I do find it absurd that CTS/DTS units are priced this high, but I suppose when there's not many alternatives you can price them where you want.
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I'm curious as to what advantage that makes the additional $35k price difference justifiable, if you were picking all over again.
I do find it absurd that CTS/DTS units are priced this high, but I suppose when there's not many alternatives you can price them where you want.
Printers on forums often talk about not leaving money on the table. Many equipment and supply manufacturers may have a similar philosophy.
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I'm curious as to what advantage that makes the additional $35k price difference justifiable, if you were picking all over again.
I do find it absurd that CTS/DTS units are priced this high, but I suppose when there's not many alternatives you can price them where you want.
Well if the Lawson hits the market and its a turd will you still have that opinion that others are over priced? It's interesting that all the big players in the CTS game has machines that cost "absurd" money or more. The few that are way lower priced have not seen the same level of success. Do you think that is because of price or because the machine lacks something or doesn't work as it should in some way?
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I'm curious as to what advantage that makes the additional $35k price difference justifiable, if you were picking all over again.
I do find it absurd that CTS/DTS units are priced this high, but I suppose when there's not many alternatives you can price them where you want.
Well if the Lawson hits the market and its a turd will you still have that opinion that others are over priced? It's interesting that all the big players in the CTS game has machines that cost "absurd" money or more. The few that are way lower priced have not seen the same level of success. Do you think that is because of price or because the machine lacks something or doesn't work as it should in some way?
I think that the hope may be that it is merely slower and less fancy with fewer bells and whistles. There was a time when a Nissan(Datsun back then), or Toyota, or Honda cost less than their American counterparts but were already actually better engineered and better built.
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My concern is its accuracy.
DTG can be less accurate than CTS because it does everything on one pass (CMYK). While a CTS needs to keep the same accuracy on multiple frames.
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I'm curious as to what advantage that makes the additional $35k price difference justifiable, if you were picking all over again.
I do find it absurd that CTS/DTS units are priced this high, but I suppose when there's not many alternatives you can price them where you want.
Well if the Lawson hits the market and its a turd will you still have that opinion that others are over priced? It's interesting that all the big players in the CTS game has machines that cost "absurd" money or more. The few that are way lower priced have not seen the same level of success. Do you think that is because of price or because the machine lacks something or doesn't work as it should in some way?
I think that the hope may be that it is merely slower and less fancy with fewer bells and whistles. There was a time when a Nissan(Datsun back then), or Toyota, or Honda cost less than their American counterparts but were already actually better engineered and better built.
Right and I get what they are "hoping" for. Trying to just balance the discussion and make sure they are considering support and reliability of the machine. Ive pointed out if Lawson drops a machine that works like others that is maybe slower even with a price point at 15k they wont be able to build them fast enough. I just wouldn't put my money on that knowing what we know about Lawson.
Seems as if "price" is the driving factor for some here. I submit that it seems like the big players all play in the higher price point. The ones that have came in much less are having issue with machines or not selling well or whatever. So I think that means either the machines suck or the support sucks or maybe both.
Your car analogy would make sense if Lawson was building its own print heads and found a way to save money and make a more reliable printer which is why Nissan/Toyota/Honda all made a name for themselves, Honda isn't putting a Chevy motor in their car and trying to compete with Ford. Lawson (like most) are not building their print heads. It was already pointed out they are using a HP head that is pretty old tech now.
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Seems as if "price" is the driving factor for some here.
The established models come with a high price tag. I am not saying they are not worth the money, but you need to be doing a certain amount of screens per week to be able to truly justify it. Let's just say that number is 50/week (just throwing a number out there).
Say you are a shop that does 15-25 screens/week. These CTS machines are just something you drool over but can not realistically consider.
Enter a machine at 25% of that price. That means you would only need to be doing 25% of the volume to be able to consider one.
Of course these machines need to WORK.
I look at it this way, look at the price tag of a Challenger 3. Who wouldn't want one? But there are also a lot of Diamondback's being sold. So if they work as they should. And are supported as they should. (Both big if's) Then the difference becomes speed, ink costs, lower LPI, etc. then this would open CTS on an entry level to smaller shops.
On the flip side, we have seen a lot of products hit the market that are attractive because of their price point and are absolute garbage.
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Lawson said they had a few in bigger shops doing Beta testing and they were now ready for the market.
What are the I-image's doing for max LPI?.
I'm not seeing the Resolute one on line, but I'm looking at the Exile Freestyler. Both use a HP head, but I'm not sure if they are the same HP heads. The Frestlyer also says you can swap the head/cartridges out to use as a DTG.
For I-Image max lpi.
As high as 85lpi in full gradation down to 3% for and 96% shadow using a 1/1 sharp on a 350 mesh. That's not typical but it's pushing it's limits. If you adjust art and curves you can do as high lpi like 90 but you need to be able to understand why you are doing this at that time.
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Industrial printheads are lower resolution than Epson's and probably the HP's, but faster.
The cost difference is in the print engine. With a modified printer you have that built in.
With an industrial printhead you have to build or buy it, not cheap. Otherwise
the actual drive mechanics of nearly all are very similar.
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My concern is its accuracy.
DTG can be less accurate than CTS because it does everything on one pass (CMYK). While a CTS needs to keep the same accuracy on multiple frames.
I find DTG to be far more on point accurate than re loading multiple screens for DTS. That leaves room for re load error. It's kinda manual and leaves room for human error. That's where Tri lock will fail if at all.
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don't forget software cost either....
the rip costs money to purchase, support and maintain.
someone running something like filmmaker or accurip on the back end can likely produce a lot cheaper machine than say harlquein or wasatch or whatever the "proprietary" crap that M&R uses is (I honestly think the worst part of the M&R devices is the rip.. everything else quite frankly is best in class, but the rip on the older I-Image and even the new I-Image ST models are far from optimal in my opinion) I say proprietary in the M&R case as they are integrating/re-selling someone elses.
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What specifically don't you like about it that others do have?
We take suggestions and if it's feasible and in demand, we request changes. Most times they work with us and provide updates with good changes. Not all can be achieved though, depending.
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My concern is its accuracy.
DTG can be less accurate than CTS because it does everything on one pass (CMYK). While a CTS needs to keep the same accuracy on multiple frames.
I find DTG to be far more on point accurate than re loading multiple screens for DTS. That leaves room for re load error. It's kinda manual and leaves room for human error. That's where Tri lock will fail if at all.
oops. I mean CTS needs to be engineered with tighter tolerance.
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I like this lot, at least from the video I`ve watched and the documents I`ve read. Gives smaller shops like mine the chances to use as well CTS without breaking the bank. Something other equipment manufacturers clearly have overlooked. Heads up to fringe players like Lawson for catering for the smaller shops too.
we have a Lawson trade in you can have for 10k.
Yes. I saw that yesterday on the M&R forum too.
I would really need to get my research spot on though first before committing myself to it.
That machine looks as well huge.
I assume it works just fine?
Anyway, there is no CTS for the little guys in the pipeline by M&R?
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There are a few STE on M&R's site for sale I believe
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I like this lot, at least from the video I`ve watched and the documents I`ve read. Gives smaller shops like mine the chances to use as well CTS without breaking the bank. Something other equipment manufacturers clearly have overlooked. Heads up to fringe players like Lawson for catering for the smaller shops too.
we have a Lawson trade in you can have for 10k.
Yes. I saw that yesterday on the M&R forum too.
I would really need to get my research spot on though first before committing myself to it.
That machine looks as well huge.
I assume it works just fine?
Anyway, there is no CTS for the little guys in the pipeline by M&R?
Yes there is but nothing repurposed.
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The Lawson Focus and the Exile FreeStyler CTS are very similar … look the same, have the same HP heads … except the FreeStyler has a better rip and can accommodate any size frame including the Newman roller frames.
The biggest difference between the two CTS printers is the ink inside the HP cartridges … it is only supplied to Exile and works with most emulsions and does not soften the emulsion beside the printed area. This means when the screens are washed out, the edges of the negative stay sharp.
The FreeStyler heads are able to be changed so the printer can be used for DTG.
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I used an Epson Workforce 1100 for years for my film output. It had its problems, it was slow and had other limits. But my films were certainly good (not just good enough). We recently snatched up a used 4880... Man, there is a huge difference... It certainly has less quirks and prints WAY faster.
How much of a premium is it worth though? At our volume the 1100 would be fine, especially if we took care of it like we should have for our purposes. But at some point the minor hassles become too much, the slow print speeds aren't acceptable, the cost in sheets vs rolls become an issue. But for many that 1100 is just fine.
Another angle is I drove my brother's Acura TL for about a week... It's about 7 years old, but man, it felt tight and nice... Very surprising given the age and I know he doesn't baby it or really take care of it well. I was curious, so I looked up the price and immediately said "well, it better be nice still for that price!"
There are subtle things that make a nice car a nice car that you don't immediately see or "get" when buying.
BUT, the $10k Kia Rio will still get you to work and back every day just fine.
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I like this lot, at least from the video I`ve watched and the documents I`ve read. Gives smaller shops like mine the chances to use as well CTS without breaking the bank. Something other equipment manufacturers clearly have overlooked. Heads up to fringe players like Lawson for catering for the smaller shops too.
we have a Lawson trade in you can have for 10k.
Yes. I saw that yesterday on the M&R forum too.
I would really need to get my research spot on though first before committing myself to it.
That machine looks as well huge.
I assume it works just fine?
Anyway, there is no CTS for the little guys in the pipeline by M&R?
Yes there is but nothing repurposed.
Please tell me more. Price point , release date.
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I like this lot, at least from the video I`ve watched and the documents I`ve read. Gives smaller shops like mine the chances to use as well CTS without breaking the bank. Something other equipment manufacturers clearly have overlooked. Heads up to fringe players like Lawson for catering for the smaller shops too.
we have a Lawson trade in you can have for 10k.
The unit was released at the SGAI show in Vegas. Price is $29,995 plus crate and install. Unit is called I-Image S
Yes. I saw that yesterday on the M&R forum too.
I would really need to get my research spot on though first before committing myself to it.
That machine looks as well huge.
I assume it works just fine?
Anyway, there is no CTS for the little guys in the pipeline by M&R?
Yes there is but nothing repurposed.
Please tell me more. Price point , release date.