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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: alan802 on October 18, 2011, 02:56:18 PM
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This has always been one of my favorite topics that has been hammered to death on forums since they were started, but we don't have a dedicated thread to that subject here yet, or that I can remember or find, so let's whip the proverbial ass of this topic some more.
I personally think it's one of the most important variables out of the several hundred that we deal with on a daily basis. I think it's right up there with press calibration, stencil thickness/EOM, print pressure, separations, mesh specifications and a few others that escape my feeble mind at the moment.
I used static aluminums for several years before we started to use the dozens of newman rollers we had laying around in the dark room collecting dust. For the first 2 years I printed, I had no idea how tension affected the entire process so we used the statics instead of the newmans because they were easier to handle (how funny is that?). With that being said, I can surely attest to the greatness of retensionable frames or for the sake of this argument, higher tension versus lower. We don't necessarily have to get into newman roller versus static alum or wood, we can simply use low, mid, high and extreme tension levels as our arguing terms.
Our static alums after several years of use were in the range of 10-21 newtons. When I bought a tension meter I got to see just how bad our screen tension was and at that time I was starting to get into researching tension and it's importance. I had noticed some time before I got our tension meter that the tighter screens were giving us better white prints. In the time we used the statics, much like everyone else, we had somehow managed to print some really quality work. That's not really the argument I want to get into per say, but feel free to throw in that disclaimer if you are one of those shops.
Once we committed to using newmans and shurloc ez's I went with the more is better approach and I was stretching our screens to the absolute maximum that the manufacturer would recommend and sometimes I would go beyond that. For example, there was a time when I was getting some of our 156 sefar past 60 newtons. We were limited with our shurloc ez frames to the good people at shurloc deciding exactly what tension level they were going to be once settled and work hardened. Within a couple months of running jobs with extreme tension, I noticed that those screens that I had "neglected" somewhat and allowed to get lower in tension were performing great, they were for example 156's in the mid 30's. It took a lot of work to keep them screens at such a high level so I then decided to lower my tension levels to a more reasonable limit which was in the high 20's up to 48 on say a 102 Newman.
I don't know what you would consider our shop in the tension argument, I would say we are proponents of high tension screens and not moderate. We do have plenty of screens that are moderately tensioned, but for the most part, I put the mesh to the highest recommended level set by the manufacturer. Since we've made the change to high tension, I cannot tell you how many of those weird ass "problems", or gremlins just went away. There would be those Murphy's Law days in the static days where every damn job we set up was a PITA and screens were always popping on subsequent screens while printing (not popping as in damaging the screen), registration was hard to get perfect, setups were long and frustrating. The buildup on the backs of screens was sometimes mind boggling and our ink usage was much higher per print than it is today. Literally most all of the day to day headaches were a thing of the past. Don't get me wrong, we still struggle sometimes and things will always be going wrong but I know if we use the right screens for a job and do all of the other things the right way, the day will be smooth.
Is there anyone out there that thinks that tension levels in the 12-20 range are great and some of us that "preach" about high tension are off our rockers? Who out there has used both statics and newman rollers/shurloc ez's and still prefer statics? If so, how and why? Did you give the high tension frames a fair chance or did you give up on them too early? Is there anyone out there that will argue that they can do the exact same quality print with 15 newton screens versus 30 newton ones? What are y'all's thoughts about all the other supposed benefits of using high tension screens that I mentioned some of earlier?
What are your overall experiences with low, medium and high tension screens. I welcome any thoughts from those who haven't ever used more than one type of frame as well. I've used static aluminum, newman rollers, shurloc ez's and panel frames.
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I really want to get into Newmans and shurlocs, but budget isn't there for it currently, I need another embroidery machine. So that's where my extra money is going right now.
Most of our screens are probably in the 15-20 range and we are getting some pretty great results. But yes I know it could be even better.
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I use only Newman's and only have a couple statics that I use for Shimmers and Crstallina inks.
Newman's are still only as good as the operator. If they're not maintained to tension, then whats the point of paying for them. Does everybody that uses Newsman's have a tension meter?
I hear (and have seen) stories of amazing prints that were done on 10 year old wooden statics.
I just think that nicely a tensioned Newman removes at least one variable when screen printing.
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I do agree that people can do some great prints through low tensioned screens.
Is there anyone out there that has a bunch of newman rollers and statics and choose to print on the statics every day? If so, sell me the newmans.
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Mesh tension is a lot like sex, well not really but now that I have your attention I think too much value is being placed on screen tension IN ISOLATION.
If you look at the entire screen printing process as a chain and each operation in the process (example, tension, squeegee choice, mesh selection, and so on) as a link in the chain then there is no one link that is more or less important than any other link in the chain if the chain is to work as expected. A bad link will however fail the entire chain.
Screen tension is however (in our experience) a boundary element, I’ll explain in terms of riding a bike up a hill to the top and down the other side. Once you crest the hill well you know it all gets down hill from there and EASY.
Tension is the same kinda thing in as much as we believe the print result improves noticably at the tension crest we believe to be at @ 33 to 35 Nm for the printing we do. We have found below this level we experience nunerous ink, registration, coating and other issues that all seem to go away or at least greatly diminish starting at tension levels of 30Nm and above.
Especially in ink transfer from screen to garment and doubly so on fleece hoodies and the like. We find loose screens (for obvious reasons) push the garment more in front of a PUSHED squeegee. Not so much a problem on a one color hit but if we are PFP and on fleece we get a shadow or an out and out double hit. When changing only the screen to one that is at 30+ Nm we find the frequency and severity of this condition reduces greatly.
Coating, We use mostly 155 @ 40Nm, 195 @ 35Nm and 205 @ 30Nm minimum. We coat to the full shine condition and then hit the opposite side 2 times. With tensions below the 33Nm area we find we get inconsistent EOM across the width of our 18 inch track. Above 33Nm we get a far better result in terms of full width thickness of the coating. This is painfully apparent with a fully dry screen and a quick review in the light. We can easily see a difference in thickness across the width of the deposit from center to edge on lower mesh screens.
So for the printing we do we like to see a minimum of 33 Nm on all screens and will stretch any screen every time to every last Nm we think we can get but tension is only one note in the whole song.
mooseman
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Awesome post Moose. I do take a slightly different stance on the different variables and their importance but I do understand why you feel that way about them as a chain. I very much agree on them each having a great affect on the next and the entire process. I just think that a small handful are maybe not more or less important but they may have a greater impact on the finished product.
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Some of you all might've followed some of my posts and know that I went from statics in the early days and then, much like Alan, got a tension meter and confirmed that yes, that one screen the prints white real nice is at higher tension than the others. From there I went to Newmans at first with 'standard' or 'T' mesh at 'medium' tensions, then with Roller Mesh at 'extreme' tensions (all were over 40n/cm with some much higher) and now I'm just tickled shitless with low-mid tension (around 26n/cm on average, some a bit higher) 'S' mesh or thin thread.
Moose's post illustrates one of the things I really enjoyed with 'extreme' tension- consistency and repeatability throughout the chain as you called it. High tension screens coat and print much more consistently than lower or mid tensioned screens do.
That said, this S mesh is the jam and I don't think I'm ever going back. I printed a short job for and with friends for their non-profit the other night and used some of the 166 tpi roller mesh frames I had not been using in production. They were probably around 45 n/cm. I offered to let some of them print the Ts. Well the print was white on black mostly and nobody could clear the mesh. I got back on printing duty and found it to be brutal, I had to use a dry stroke to clear every pass. With the thin thread meshes I could've been using a lower tpi that held more detail and cleared thick white ink like it was magic. The Roller Mesh screen got the job done but that would've been half the physical strain and looked even better through a 150/48 S.
S mesh is definitely trickier to coat consistently because of it's low tension and due to it's ability to let stuff just flow right through it. It also take finesse and intuition to print with it manually- if the pressure and off-contact isn't very consistent and smooth yer going to see it.
So, if we had an auto pushing ink around for us I might never have left the Roller Mesh and it's uber-tensions but as manual printers the ink clearing ability of thin thread meshes is really beneficial. It's also taught me a lot about ink rheology and now, when we do ever get an auto I plan to stay with the S meshes.
If the S mesh would stabilize at 24n/cm or above across the board of all mesh counts I'd have no problem using statics again, it'd be great. As it stands, I find the roller frames to be critical in keeping this stuff as close to it's max tension as possible. There's a monumental difference between 20 and 26 n/cm in terms of print quality in my opinion. With the uber-tension mesh it would all stablize at not lower than 40 n/cm typically and there really isn't a huge difference between that and 55 n/cm.
My 2 on it. Good thread.
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I have both newman and aluminum static, I haven't had alot of time to test, and research the difference, but I do find that I am cleaning and reclaming more of the newmans than the static, it seems to be my frame of choice. I must admit I get an "F" when it comes to checking and keeping the tension up to par. I would like to know how many people that have newmans have the newman stretching table. I made a table to clamp them down but it seems i don't have time to rework them.
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How good are the panel Frames? I just watched the video. For the price they look cheap and really easy to set up (much like the Surlocks) How are the tension on the Panels???
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Well I've used just about everything over the years. Is tension overrated? By some I believe yes. Where does it matter most? In the underbase. Will you use less ink with higher tension? Doubtful. Does higher tension result in better registration? I've yet to see that. I've also yet to see that it increase set up times. Will higher tension allow you to print faster? Well you can usually speed up the stroke providing you have a well calibrated press but there are so many underlying constraints with regards to automatic production that you may find that, after admiring how quickly the squeegee travels you might still have to wait for that 3 second flash delay, operator fatigue, and dozens of other variables that can and often do restrict throughput (which by the way are so often overlooked while trying to obtain that perfect tension level). And with regards to print quality some of the best prints you will ever see have been printed with statics and I dare say I have seen some pretty substandard work on high tension as well as lower tensioned screens. This enforces some of the above statements that while this is an important variable it is but only one of hundreds involved in the process.
So what is the least often mentioned benefit of higher tension? In my opinion it is smearing of successive colors when printing on solid plastisol underbases. There are others of course but I can tell you there are so many shops out ther that use roller frames and never re-tension; simply re-mesh as required. This is merely an observation; I do not by any means encourage this. Conversely whats the point of having re-tensionable screens if there is no time in the cycle to measure and adjust?
I've been considering my approach to increasing the quality of my screens for a while now. In the end I have decided to build a stretching table and start testing new fabrics. I'm in the vast minority here but I'm confident this will allow me to bring the variables back under control without causing delays in production. I'm going to get skewered for this but I am not in the screenmaking business I am in the screenprinting business.
Pierre is on his way here for a brief visit before leaving for New Orleans and I'm sure this topic will arise and he may wish chime in with his thoughts.
Finally kudos to those who have the time and inclination to keep pushing forward with this important but singular variable and continue to share their observations and experiences. It does not go unnoticed. We may agree to disagree with this sometimes sensitve subject but in doing so the learning process continues to improve.
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Thanks, Pierre, for not stopping by my shop, it's ok. I understand. :-[
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I won't disagree with anything Tony said except the difference in setup times. I stand by everything I've said about high tension but Tony has been at this way longer and I don't have concrete, measured evidence about ink deposit and stuff like that, just an overall inclination that high tension has done great things for us. All of the "sales person claims" about high tension have turned out to be at least mostly true from what we can tell and I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe that any of those claims weren't factual.
We changed a few major variables and the way we did a few things all at the same time so I can't sit here and say that high tension is the only reason why our setups are much faster now, but I just "know" that it was the main reason why our setup times have decreased drastically. I remember setting up a six color job with our statics and doing 20 test prints to get everything registered correctly and getting all of the print settings nailed down right so the ink deposit is quality. Now, if I'm setting the job up, a six color might have 3 test prints done on it, and most times, 2 and we are running the job.
And I know for sure that higher tension screens have allowed us to very rarely ever need to double stroke, along with many other advantages I've noticed, I just wish I could actually measure these results.
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How good are the panel Frames? I just watched the video. For the price they look cheap and really easy to set up (much like the Surlocks) How are the tension on the Panels???
I have four panelframes with 230 mesh. I would not buy them again. Tightest screen was around 17nm stretched and then relaxed even lower. My statics are better than these. I tried researching them before I bought, read about bad mesh being replaced with good mesh, figured they had the kinks worked out (like testing each panel tension before shipping). Then after I bought them they announced that the Chinese mesh supplier STILL wasn't cutting it with QC and they were reorganizing to use panels made here in the states.
If you do decide to buy some, make sure you confirm the source of the panels. I'm going to try double-rolling one end and see if I can get over 20nm. I'll put the tension meter on them as I do it and if they pop below 30nm I can blame the quality of the mesh in addition to poor construction.
They still print okay, but no where near their potential in my opinion.
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I've got 4 panel frames and I bought them when they were new and the old china mesh. I have been disappointed with many products over the years but this one was possibly the biggest. I bought 10 panels for 4 frames and I ripped only 2 of the 10 panels when trying to stretch. The tension levels I recorded were in the low 20's, I think 22 was the highest. After a few hours they had relaxed to 17-18 newtons. I've still got them out there and 3 of them still have mesh in them. I may just go measure them real quick for shats and gaggles.
I tried the double roll technique and it added tension but it also added too much stress for that mesh to handle and most of the double rolled panels ripped. I still maintain my stance that they could be a very good product, a possible game changer but it's been a year now and they've yet to reach that potential that I thought they had.
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So panels are out. Here is a my question. I use statics now. I get 18 to 22n on them. They print fine but i would like to be consistently around 25 to 35n. I don't want to use Newmans. Is my only option Surlock frames and the conversions? Alan you never gave your feed back on the Conversions in that old thread. I am interested to hear about them.
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I still haven't put the conversion kit on a frame yet. They are sitting there collecting dust. I think if you could get a company that stretches statics to do real quality work, then you could get them to stretch statics with Murakami Smartmesh S threads in the 22-28 newton range and have a hell of a product. But I have yet to see a company that stretches statics that could get all of their screens up to the mid and upper 20's so I doubt anyone could do that with the S thread mesh. I thought about trying to set up a business that stretches statics but use premium mesh like the S thread, then guarantee tension levels in the mid 20's, but I ain't got time to start something like that, and who knows if anyone would even buy them. I know I would if someone would guarantee that my statics would be 156's at 25 newtons, 110's at 30, etc once they are work hardened, I'd pay the premium.
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I have heard that there are a couple people working on static that don't lose tension...and are pretty high tension.
There is a market.
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If I could get a frame that would stay at 25 to 27n all the time I would happy as can be...we just had a mesh rip during a runn what a pain. I,ve got some wood frames about 8 years old mesh is loose as an old hounddog, but the frame is still flat. I bought some of the panel frames when they first came out with the china mesh since mine are the 20 x 24 they held tension pretty good and still have about 24n not bad.
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I asked one of our local suppliers that does stretch screens for some of his customers and had him make me up some statics with 135/48 and asked specifically to make them as close as he could to 25 newtons so we could see how much they relax after a few rounds through production. Well, it was a disaster because I guess his meter isn't working correctly and when I grabbed one I noticed how loose it was and I guess he saw the look on my face and asked what the problem was. I pressed on the mesh and guessed that it was 12 newtons and he was stunned that it was that low and so we put my meter on it and sure enough, one was at 13 newtons and the other was at 10!
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr211/alan802/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_2809.jpg)
I was thinking about having him talk to his customers and see who would be interested in paying that extra premium for a premium product but after seeing how bad the first sample screen was I decided to not get into a business venture at this time.
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"statics with Murakami Smartmesh S threads in the 22-28 newton range"
I would buy them as long as they know how to glue them. I bought 20 screens in the last month and a half and 7 have come unglued. Their tension was 18 to 22. I have had some screens that are glued really good. I even bought glue just so i can fix screens that are starting to come apart.
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Glue? Heck, we use staple tape for our screens. ;D
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There are basically two glue systems available. 2-part cyanoacrylate (Lockite) and a single part laquer. The former is faster but less durable the latter takes longer but is more stable for the life of the mesh. Also often the case of mesh adhesion failure is poor frame prepping. There is a bit of craftsmenship to this. Pierre was here for half a day and while we were walking out I noticed an old SPEC stretching table. As mentioned elsewhere I am very interested in looking at stretching static aluminiums that will stabilize to 25-30. That is fine for me. Back in the day most auto shops had stretching equipment and we had a few tricks and tips on this. Some of the reasons pre-stretched sceens fail is cheap mesh and poor procedures that are largely due to time restraints
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I would like to say that using high tension and having a perfectly calibrated press isn't a necessity. Your press needs to be fairly consistent from pallet to pallet and printhead to printhead but it doesn't need to be dead nuts, within a sheet of paper of one another to benefit. By my standards, our press is out of whack, the pallets are within 1/32" from one another, there might be a corner here and there that's more than that, and we still reap the rewards of high tension screens. I would guess that your press would have to be really out of parallel to have real problems with high tension screens, meaning maybe 1/8" or so differences in pallet to pallet. Is that where some of you would guess that your press is as far as parallelism goes? I know if your press is within 1/32" or even a millimeter out of parallel then you will still benefit greatly with high tension, we are doing it right now. I don't like the fact that our press isn't perfect, but we have been way too busy for me to calibrate it.
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Screen tension is nothing but a myth and has no place in this industry.
The static frame is god and always will be. Roller frames are the devil and should be treated as such.
Just keep using static frames and your printing career will go places you never thought possible!
Just think what you can do with all the money you saved buying those 50 used static frames off Digit vs buying some used roller frames and mesh.
Have Fun!!
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Did you have a rough day today John?
John's ready to fight, stand back burritos.
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Alan, I applaud your effort in trying to HELP others, you made an incredible argument.. but once the horse is at the pond.. you can't force him to drink.
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I don't think screen tension is a myth, that's not how I took it reading this thread, nor do I think statics are god, nor do I think Newmans are the be all end all of screens.
Proper tension is important, but taking it to an extreme I believe is a myth made large by over zealous marketeers of this industry. Talk to a mesh manufactuarer, they'll tell you their mesh performs best in the suggested tension range specified in the thread charts.
I'll just leave it at that.
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I,ve got a diamond chase stretcher and use both types of glue the tension drop like a rock in the ocean once I cut it loose and this was on the aluminium frames, even the wood frames. I think I just suck at stretching static frames, plus prep is a mutha getting those frames ready.
We went to SGIA show in the Big Easy many years ago and thats where I saw my first newman frames this guy was manually printing an orange dragon on some black tees with no underbase and it look great. I rememder telling me that the newman guys were jacking some of those frames up to 50n, but really didn't see a need to have that much tension for screen printing. I think the frame he was printing with was around 30 to 35n and he was using one of those constant force squeegee. So yes good tension does play its part, but like someone said already, you got to set your shop up for that.
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I didn't start this thread to push my thoughts and ideas onto those who don't do as I do, or to try and change anyone's methods, but I do seriously want to know why others do things the way they do and I want to learn something. I have strong opinions on this subject simply because I've seen so many positive changes in our shop over the last 5 years and using higher tension screens than anything that our statics could provide was one major factor in those improvements. I wouldn't be so adamant about this if I didn't truly believe that it is as important as it is, but I don't want to sound pushy in the way I'm arguing my points. I do respect every single person who doesn't use high tension screens and I respect their reasons why they choose not to. I'll listen to all of the arguments against my opinions but unfortunately there probably isn't anybody or anything that could be said to make me believe that the main benefits of higher tension are not really true.
I think that if I hadn't used statics for so long before we made the change to newmans and shurlocs then maybe I wouldn't have formed such strong opinions on how beneficial those two frame systems are. Their abilities to eliminate a good number of on-press problems are what I saw first hand. I am by nature a very, well, overly observant person so when something changes I usually notice it rather quickly. I may overstate or over emphasize things from time to time but I watched one shop's transformation from a struggling operation that was working overtime and stressful hours to get 650 jobs a year out the door to where we are now. We are on pace to print 1100 jobs this year with the same basic numbers size wise and with the same number of employees. That change happened because of many different reasons but when you start getting into depth of the little problems that went away, the increase in setup times and other random benefits we were witnessing I became a true believer in ALL of those systemic and procedural changes that we made, especially the move to higher tension screens.
I appreciate all of you putting your 2 cents in, and I have learned a lot and hope this thread continues even longer so we all can learn more. I have about 20 static alums that still see action from time to time, especially when we are as busy as we are now. I'm not one to totally dismiss them or those who use them. I know great prints come from 15 newton screens but I'll always argue that it could have looked better through high tension screens. :)
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Now that I've been born again with thin thread mesh I did consider finding someone with an excellent stretching machine and getting some very high quality frames from them or even shipping good, flat aluminum frames to them and agreeing to pay more for a certain standard. I think it's worth discussing with a screen maker. I also think, with enough pulse/stage stretching time dedicated to the process, you can achieve a better static frame. Of course it would cost more as the screens would take possibly 10x longer to make than standard screens. The logistical issue I see isn't so much getting the mesh tight and stable- you can do it with enough time and the perfect amount of over-stretching as in taking a 26n rated mesh to just about 30n knowing it will relax in the next 12 hours down to 26n and hopefully, after printing a few cycles retain 22-24n -but more in shipping these rather delicate frames. I think you'd have to really over pack the things to ensure they aren't doa.
This is why I never understood the EZ frames- why not just do the same stage tensioning before gluing statics?
Also, I'll say it again- I love how easy statics are to handle and not having to more than monitor tension with them. When they're done, they're done. Send 'em back for new mesh. Then again, it's another cost of using these frames having to ship them back and forth or stretching and gluing in-house.
That said, Roller Frames have advantages over almost any other system aside from just high tension. You can keep them perfectly flat at will, exchange mesh counts in house, they don't require nasty-ass glue to affix the mesh to the frame and, as I'm learning, the ability to have frames with an in-built pre-reg mechanism like the Pin Lock is straight baller.
Regarding parallel issues with the equipment and high-tension:
The level of calibration you need is relative to the off-contact you are printing at.
...and o.c. is directly related to tension. At insano tensions you can print at extremely low contact which is, in theory, beneficial. But it's a game of percentages here. At an off contact of, say, 1/8" a platen that is 1/32" off is not so big a deal. Drop the o.c. to 1/16" or an inch and now one end of that platen is twice as high/low as the other. If your press (and your maintenance routine) can't hold the tolerances needed you won't fully reap the benefits.
Anyways, anyone know of a screen maker who might be up to the challenge of delivering s mesh screens that stabilize at 24n or above? In my prior experience Pocono Screen always sent us the highest tension screens, perhaps that's a product of the machine and process they use?
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Correct on the latter. The M&R stretcher is not a very good unit for instance. Systems like Harlacher use many many cylinders for more even tensioning and are much better (and used by large format flat bed guys). One technique involves multiple relaxing periods and retensioning before final glue application. The principle is that this can get you to higher tension levels than specified; and when relaxed they will settled in at a nice performance screen.
The people who are "banging these out" probably do not use the methods we've used in the past.
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I don't think screen tension is a myth, that's not how I took it reading this thread, nor do I think statics are god, nor do I think Newmans are the be all end all of screens.
Proper tension is important, but taking it to an extreme I believe is a myth made large by over zealous marketeers of this industry. Talk to a mesh manufactuarer, they'll tell you their mesh performs best in the suggested tension range specified in the thread charts.
I'll just leave it at that.
Why can't Newman's (retensionables) be the "Be ALL"?
If you want more tension they work, if you want less tension they work. Seems like the answer to EVERYONE'S dream
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We recently bought a M&R stretcher for our jumbo frames and come to find out were re stretching all our statics, We are using dynamesh and pulling 230-305-40 to 36 NM and within 24 hours they lose about 2-3NM, after a few weeks and 10 reclaims they are holding in the 28Nm range some higher. Stretching in house is fairly simple and with good mesh/glue and strong aluminum frames you can get good results. It costs me $7 per 25x36 screen to remesh, My $10 and hour guy can do 5 and hour with grinding them and cleaning them. I have rollers and EZ Frames but I am starting to wish I would of spent the $1500 dollars on a stretcher years ago instead of sending them out and getting sub par screens. If you can't afford rollers and don't have the time to keep them up then stretch in house and control the process and save yourself about $10 per screen vs Sending them out.
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started on Newmans 16 years ago, 2 years ago I opened my own shop and switched to statics for cost reasons. I DOUBT I WILL EVER GO BACK TO ROLLER FRAMES! Just my experience, I know most would disagree. A wise industry leader (whose name I wont mention) told me about 15 years ago that its more important that your frames be very similar in tension, rather it be low or high, just consistent and you can get great results. I tested that theory and I stand by it after all these years. Again, just my opinion.
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How much life do you get out of your static's? And where do you get them from?
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Yes even tension is important but I am exactly opposite. I will never use a static again in my shop. The difference between 20N and 40-50N is huge in benefits to a manual printer like me. Ink transfer is so much easier so I don't have to push so hard, registration is so much better due to the screen not skewing not only from the tension but because I'm not pushing as hard. More ink is staying at the surface of the shirt and I get more opaque prints. After a few tensionings with good mesh like Newman mesh or other HD mesh its work hardened and no re tensioning is needed.
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How much life do you get out of your static's? And where do you get them from?
As I said, 2 years ago I opened my own shop. Still running those same screens 2 years later. I get them from Brannon at Spot Color Supply.
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We have statics from Xenon that are almost five years old, have tens of thousands of prints on them and are around 20N.
Pierre
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We have statics from Xenon that are almost five years old, have tens of thousands of prints on them and are around 20N.
Pierre
I have some xenon mesh here, 230 and 160 I believe - I can't get the 230 past 20 newtons before it pops on my stretcher. The last time we had xenon screens in here, they were about 15 newtons straight out of the box?!
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Same here Homer with my Xenon screens 14 to 15, just bought some more and only two are at 20n the other two 15n...believe it not Homer the 230 are the 20n and the 280 are 15n
Darryl
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Send them Back if there 15nm, That tension will cause registration to wander and many other problems, I would not accept anything under 25nm from a supplier because they are going to relax atleast 4-5nm. It is all about the mesh brand whether high tensions will hold and not pop. Sefar and sati I can get to 24 on a 305 before popping, Dynamesh Beta 305 same thread diameter as the other will go up to 36nm, Stretch and glue frames is super easy, probably one of the easier tasks in the whole process, I too used to think it was a pain and that I wouldn't be able to make better screens than people specializing in re stretching.
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Send them Back if there 15nm, That tension will cause registration to wander and many other problems, I would not accept anything under 25nm from a supplier because they are going to relax atleast 4-5nm. It is all about the mesh brand whether high tensions will hold and not pop. Sefar and sati I can get to 24 on a 305 before popping, Dynamesh Beta 305 same thread diameter as the other will go up to 36nm, Stretch and glue frames is super easy, probably one of the easier tasks in the whole process, I too used to think it was a pain and that I wouldn't be able to make better screens than people specializing in re stretching.
I would have but I needed to get them in use asap. so far nobody can get a static to a tension I'm happy with so I stretch my own. I can get 230 S mesh almost anywhere I want it and it's fine. Xenon mesh, I look at it and it breaks....same with my panel frames, stock panels blow and I can understand people hating on them but I make my own panels...when I have time haha
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I am very "pro" roller frame but if someone made a static that didn't lose so much tension then I'd buy them. NOBODY consistently makes a static that stays at the tension they are delivered at. The best statics I've seen from a supplier are the xenon screens but even the last batch of 5 that I bought in July, have gone from 25 down to 20 for the 123/71's and the 110/81's have gone from 22 down to 17 and 18 newtons. Unfortunately nobody has made a truly low/no elongation mesh so when it comes to statics it's very hard for the suppliers/makers of the screens to make money on them if they actually stretched them to the point that they were essentially work hardened. If you get a static that is brand new and it's 25 newtons and you use it a few times and it's still 25 newtons, then it was stretched perfectly and most likely took a long time to get it that way.
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We prefer rollers for consistency and knowing the exact mesh that is on there. Both size and brand. Not saying all cheat and dont use what is requested but I have been bitten more than once from certain vendors charging for what was not really there.
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I've bought so many screens over the years and really never new there true tension until I bought a tension meter, and was my eyes open, I don't think I ever had a screen at 30 to 40 n in my rack. All have been between 12 and 18 on static, now I have some rollers and they are around 18 to 20, I think I was more worried about them being flat.
Darryl