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screen printing => General Screen Printing => Topic started by: Gilligan on October 23, 2011, 09:12:17 PM
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Is it as simple as not underbasing?
Something like this:
(http://www.teesforall.com/images/Scooby_Doo_Baked_Blue_Shirt2.jpg)
I have a two color job coming up that I'm thinking about doing this type of print on. White and Navy blue print on a red shirt.
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Based down inks, higher meshes, and depending on how far you want to go with "old and faded" maybe a distress filter.
As you know, plastisol doesn't really fade, it eventually cracks.
Thing is, I've done 'em, but I always thought that the look is a little incongruous on new shirts.
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Would you suggest this is a more advanced technique?
I was thinking this would be an easier way to cover mistakes since my daughter and her boyfriend want to help print them.
We were already looking at doing a distressed look, but then I got to thinking light on dark (underbase) + distressed look might get tricky with registration.
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I have done a couple of prints with an 80 percent curable reducer to 20 percent ink. It gives you kind of a tone on tone look which is pretty cool. Cant seem to find pics though. The good thing about these kind of prints is that you really cant mess up.
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Yeah, usually, distressed and "faded" prints hide a multitude of sins.
Now, engineer your art to work without registration issues. The navy probably doesn't need underbasing, and the white is on one screen, you said that you don't want it solid, so registering the distress should not be a problem. You're not punishing the kids with your 2x4's and hinges are you? lol!
Also, solid navy over a distressed base could be interesting as well.
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I've used 230 or higher mesh with no flood stroke to achieve a nice retro soft print. I wish all print request were for the retro look! No ink mod needed. If on a dark, no ub.
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Yuck yuck yuck... laugh it up Andy.
You guys razzed me enough to drop $2700 on a press and dryer, that isn't enough. :p FYI, the bungee cord setup was smoother than my Antec Legend. :p
I'm trying to give the kids all the help they can get... didn't you read my post in the general section about their "apprenticeship" session? ;)
I have some 200 mesh that I just reclaimed from my press purchase... other than that I got my little 158's.
Once you base down your inks you pretty much have to chunk the ink when done right? Or keep it around for another similar job... is that really practical?
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Just base down what you need, or weigh it out so you don't mix a lot, but can repeat the mix if necessary 'til the job is done.
In addition to the high mesh counts, based down ink and filters, the distressed effect can be augmented doing a generally half-assed print job with a light or uneven pass with the squeegie. I've also seen where people will wrinkle up some paper, flatten in, paste it to the platen, then load the shirt and print over it. I've always used a home-spun filter for the art, but you can probably dig up some feeebies online.
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First off, as Tom said before I got to post, lol! don't mix a lot more than you will use. Otherwise, if you don't think that you'll need it again the the future, you can probably add more of the whole ink to make it an everyday ink.
For as long as I can remember, we have put the whack on inks that go on light garments, even Union Ultrasoft, cutting with "Clear for gold" before soft hand base was even a gleam in Richard Labov'e eye.
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How important is this basing down for this print?
Will be ordering some ink and I might as well get this base if I NEED it. I use Union Soft Ultrasoft ink for everything except for low bleed white I use Rutland Maximum Plus White. Is there a particular base that I should get given these facts?
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For the "vintage" faded look, all you are trying to do is make the inks more transparent. For that, virtually any clear base will work.
Now, that said, with the trend towards soft hand, most plastisol printers already have somebody's version of that in their arsenal. It also extends ink and stretches dollars with the cheaper, un-pigmented base. It just isn't used in such great proportions for normal extending and softening.
As I mentioned, even twenty years ago, we were using Union's Clear base for metallic gold and Silver for this softening and extending purpose (even with Ultra Soft). Now, everyone has a soft-hand base available.
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Are you suggesting I start basing down all my inks a bit for a softer hand?
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When I started printing, there was no underbasing or flashing. We'd print the darker colors first then the whites or golds near the end. Stepping on the darks wasn't so bad, and after all, there wasn't anything better at the time, mid seventies. Stapled fabric, probably wouldn't register on a meter, and multi filament threads. If you want to go true retro, do it the way it was done at the time. If you need cracks, then prepare you're art that way, but print it the old fashioned way.
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When I started printing, there was no underbasing or flashing. We'd print the darker colors first then the whites or golds near the end. Stepping on the darks wasn't so bad, and after all, there wasn't anything better at the time, mid seventies. Stapled fabric, probably wouldn't register on a meter, and multi filament threads. If you want to go true retro, do it the way it was done at the time. If you need cracks, then prepare you're art that way, but print it the old fashioned way.
The trend is to LOOK retro... not to BE retro. ;)
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Are you suggesting I start basing down all my inks a bit for a softer hand?
if you want a softer hand
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Remember most inks come ready to print. If you start basing down your inks they will lose some opacity.
IN your case do not throw away whatever it is you mix just simply reuse it as a soft hand extender etc.
Union has soft hand base
Wilflex has Fashion soft additive
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If you print the art out on vellums crumble them into a ball and then flatten them out and burn them. Instant distress.
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Remember most inks come ready to print. If you start basing down your inks they will lose some opacity.
IN your case do not throw away whatever it is you mix just simply reuse it as a soft hand extender etc.
Union has soft hand base
Wilflex has Fashion soft additive
Soft hand bases are known to pastel colors when added so if you want a nice bright color, use curable reducer instead. Keep the soft hands for process colors and a simple extender rather than thinner.
A great fashion ink base is 80% reducer and 20% color on fashion t's. or just print waterbase inks with no activator and you'll get both hand and look in a single shot.
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When I started printing, there was no underbasing or flashing. We'd print the darker colors first then the whites or golds near the end. Stepping on the darks wasn't so bad, and after all, there wasn't anything better at the time, mid seventies. Stapled fabric, probably wouldn't register on a meter, and multi filament threads. If you want to go true retro, do it the way it was done at the time. If you need cracks, then prepare you're art that way, but print it the old fashioned way.
The trend is to LOOK retro... not to BE retro. ;)
I thought that would be good for a chuckle...
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If you're going to use reducer as a base better make sure it's curable reducer.
I would recommend keeping your reducer around for, well, reducing and use a soft hand base for your inks. QCM has Softee, Wilflex has Fashion Soft, etc., etc.
The soft bases can either be pigmented directly with a PC system (which, by the way John does not make a pastel ink, the soft bases are clear. you may be referring to the look of a bright color in soft base that was driven too far into the fabric?) or used to hyper-extend rfu inks.
Using the soft bases you can get a faded look via the fibrilation that will occur from printing a plastisol that is actually quite 'watery' and will not matt down all the fibers of the garment. The further you drive the soft based ink into the shirt the more you'll see this fibrilation/fading.
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I'm getting so confused on what I need and don't need. :(
Talked to a buddy that has a pretty similar look. Uses all the same chems as me (including ink)... actually I use the same as him that way we have a common denominator if I have problems and need his help.
He doesn't base down and he even underbased the yellow in this print (I know he talks about liking to underbase with halftones to help keep things soft. So I'm guessing that is what he did here but he doesn't remember.)
(http://www.parishink.com/image/cache/data/Boudin-MAIN-700x700.jpg)
Honestly it looks more faded in his shop than in this pic.
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We do this all the time using distress filters and patterns. It's really in the art not the ink; at least in the shown example. Prior to this we would only partially wash out the image and post expose.
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Adding a distress layer is great but sometimes the print technique is all that is needed.
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We do this all the time using distress filters and patterns. It's really in the art not the ink; at least in the shown example. Prior to this we would only partially wash out the image and post expose.
Partially wash out and post expose, I love it. But yes, distress filtered all the way. Once you learn it Gilligan, you'll like it, and it's quite easy...
Steve
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PM me if you want a PS distress filter. I think I have three, fine, medium and large.
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We do this all the time using distress filters and patterns. It's really in the art not the ink; at least in the shown example. Prior to this we would only partially wash out the image and post expose.
Partially wash out and post expose, I love it. But yes, distress filtered all the way. Once you learn it Gilligan, you'll like it, and it's quite easy...
Steve
We often will print a distressed filter with say, a 305 mesh direct with no underbase. RFU inks. There are literally hundreds of these out there and even some downloadable software (not free). My separator like to create his own.
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Yeah, I'm working on creating some of our own also. Trying to get outside the box and creative on what we use for textures. Keeps it interesting and adds a subconscious effect to the print. :)
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Scan tinfoil.
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I took a large hieroglyph cartouche and did it with that... done right it's very subtle (subconscious).
Just remember if you use that... think of me every time you do. :p
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If you're going to use reducer as a base better make sure it's curable reducer.
I would recommend keeping your reducer around for, well, reducing and use a soft hand base for your inks. QCM has Softee, Wilflex has Fashion Soft, etc., etc.
The soft bases can either be pigmented directly with a PC system (which, by the way John does not make a pastel ink, the soft bases are clear. you may be referring to the look of a bright color in soft base that was driven too far into the fabric?) or used to hyper-extend rfu inks.
Using the soft bases you can get a faded look via the fibrilation that will occur from printing a plastisol that is actually quite 'watery' and will not matt down all the fibers of the garment. The further you drive the soft based ink into the shirt the more you'll see this fibrilation/fading.
We have to distinguish the differences with soft hand bases and fashion bases.
Soft hand base is transparent
Fashion bases are opaque.
You usually add soft hand to an ink, helping to soften the inks for a better feel and shorten the body of the inks for easier printing and to extend them with a max 50% load when printing on whites or lights. Color shifting is to be expected and colors lighten due to the transparency of the soft hand. The biggest use for soft hand is extending RFU's and producing process colors in house as it's 5% ink to 95% base. Great for making concentrated magenta's and lighter cyan's.
With fashion bases, you're adding color to them with loads up to 10% This low viscosity base allows the use of higher mesh so you can either smash it into the shirt to simulate waterbase or on top as a very soft handed simulated process print.
Curable reducers reduce the viscosity of the inks while helping to maintain opacity to make it easier to print through high mesh counts. What they don't do is create softness, rather the opposite with a hard feeling ink. This can be the ideal look for a weathered or cracked looking retro shirt when combined with crackle or other specialty bases. This reducer is also great for thinning your white inks to make them print faster and move away from the dreaded 110-140 mesh count range. Base your white a little and print through a 160+ mesh, you get an opaque faster printing base and use less ink doing so.
Explore and experiment with different bases as when combined.. they can do amazing.. and horrible things so be sure to read the load ratings of ink vs base and document document document how you made it!
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If you're going to use reducer as a base better make sure it's curable reducer.
I would recommend keeping your reducer around for, well, reducing and use a soft hand base for your inks. QCM has Softee, Wilflex has Fashion Soft, etc., etc.
The soft bases can either be pigmented directly with a PC system (which, by the way John does not make a pastel ink, the soft bases are clear. you may be referring to the look of a bright color in soft base that was driven too far into the fabric?) or used to hyper-extend rfu inks.
Using the soft bases you can get a faded look via the fibrilation that will occur from printing a plastisol that is actually quite 'watery' and will not matt down all the fibers of the garment. The further you drive the soft based ink into the shirt the more you'll see this fibrilation/fading.
We have to distinguish the differences with soft hand bases and fashion bases.
Soft hand base is transparent
Fashion bases are opaque.
You usually add soft hand to an ink, helping to soften the inks for a better feel and shorten the body of the inks for easier printing and to extend them with a max 50% load when printing on whites or lights. Color shifting is to be expected and colors lighten due to the transparency of the soft hand. The biggest use for soft hand is extending RFU's and producing process colors in house as it's 5% ink to 95% base. Great for making concentrated magenta's and lighter cyan's.
With fashion bases, you're adding color to them with loads up to 10% This low viscosity base allows the use of higher mesh so you can either smash it into the shirt to simulate waterbase or on top as a very soft handed simulated process print.
Curable reducers reduce the viscosity of the inks while helping to maintain opacity to make it easier to print through high mesh counts. What they don't do is create softness, rather the opposite with a hard feeling ink. This can be the ideal look for a weathered or cracked looking retro shirt when combined with crackle or other specialty bases. This reducer is also great for thinning your white inks to make them print faster and move away from the dreaded 110-140 mesh count range. Base your white a little and print through a 160+ mesh, you get an opaque faster printing base and use less ink doing so.
Explore and experiment with different bases as when combined.. they can do amazing.. and horrible things so be sure to read the load ratings of ink vs base and document document document how you made it!
Huh, I guess I always saw it as all bases were more or less clear to start and the pigments (including white) alongside the specific rheology gave the opacity. Some bases are runnier, some thicker. The goal in the chemistry of all of them ought to be a soft hand but I'm sure this is a sacrificial quality in the enduring quest for opacity- thicker inks stand on the shirt and matt fibers down. Is this incorrect then?
For our part, we used to base down mixed pantone colors with "Softee" base. Now, using Wilflex Epic PCs we use the Fashion Base with varying percentage of Extender Base as the base ink and add pigment loads from there. None of the inks coming out of those mixes are anything resembling opaque, but perhaps I have more experimenting to do. Adding extender is necessary when you want a soft transparent ink that prints like plastisol and not wb. That Fashion Soft is runnier than all get out.
John are using Wilflex then or another PC system?
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Once you base down your inks you pretty much have to chunk the ink when done right? Or keep it around for another similar job... is that really practical?
If we're talking curable reducer for "base down", no, IMO, you don't have to throw it away.
As some of you know, I was shut down for 2+ years and everything went in storage, including inks. Since getting set up, I have printed two small jobs where I used ink that had curable reducer added over 2 years ago. Union Bright Cotton White and Wilflex Genesis Red. Inks stirred up easily and both jobs cured fine.
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adding some cureable reducer doesn't necessarily reduce opacity. it allows the ink to flow better and in some cases can improve opacity since inkflow is increased.
There is a happy medium....I do have a white that is seriously thinned for highlights and some underbases.
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Once you base down your inks you pretty much have to chunk the ink when done right? Or keep it around for another similar job... is that really practical?
If we're talking curable reducer for "base down", no, IMO, you don't have to throw it away.
As some of you know, I was shut down for 2+ years and everything went in storage, including inks. Since getting set up, I have printed two small jobs where I used ink that had curable reducer added over 2 years ago. Union Bright Cotton White and Wilflex Genesis Red. Inks stirred up easily and both jobs cured fine.
Good to know.
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I got rid of Curable Reducer when we switched to Wilflex. I use Viscosity Buster now. It's a totally clear, watery solution rather than a milkier one and @ 1-3% will get just about anything moving. We've only needed it for some of the Performance inks so far like the White and Underbase Grey.
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Is viscosity buster curable in any amount? I'm wary of bringing anything in that will render an
ink incurable.
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Is viscosity buster curable in any amount? I'm wary of bringing anything in that will render an
ink incurable.
Doubt it. But we have the PC system so we're already dealing with unbalanced elements. I'm sure it wouldn't ruin christmas if you added over the 3% but this stuff seems wildly different from a curable reducer.
You just gotta get an ink policy on lock which is hard as a lot of printers, myself very much included, tend to 'eyeball' with rfu inks for many color matches and that behavior translates over to additives. You know, 'just keep putting this stuff in there until it prints right and looks right'. Works great and it's quick to get there but it's pretty hard to repeat it without that person there and they better have a sharp memory.
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Ok here is a thought from the dark side of the moon as some of you know my usual address........,
we have used this method on some tee shirts to get a color washed out effect, it worked pretty good for our purpose on shirts and we only printed a few but the effect was pretty cool we thought.
Here goes ........we wanted a typical black outline with a very weak black fill inside the outline such that the shirt would show through as if it were washed out over time while the outline was crisp, strong and new. Almost like a faded and worn shirt had been re-printed. We were using typical black plastisol ink
Step one create the art & screens as normal, the weak inner fill black we wanted was printed as standard full black with a 195 on a piece of light embroidery backing or pellon to screen printers. You will see the first print on the pellon is weak but as you hit it one or more times it gets pretty full of ink and actually works like a stamp pad works with a rubber stamp.
Now we have a piece of pellon pretty nicely charged with black ink in a crisp image of the inner ink color.
Next we took a fully coated and exposed screen that contains no image, just a fully coated area way larger than the image on the pellon. Ok you may have guessed it we laid this screen on to pellon pulled a light squeegee over the screen and transferred the pellon excess ink to the bottom of the blank screen. You will need to coat the squeegee side of the screen so the squeegee slides nice, we use silicone spray...slides like a sled on snow.
We then transferred this picked up image to the shirt we wanted to print leaving a very nice but weak semi transparent print of nicely faded washed out looking black image.
Next we printed our normal outline and the result was just what we wanted, a faded / weak washed out looking inner effect with a crisp and dark outer image outline.
It kinda looked like the shirt was washed & faded over time and then somehow reprinted with fresh ink just for the outline.
mooseman
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Moose, that sounds like a clever technique, but I'm wondering if your outline screen could have done double duty as the "stamper" as well.
1. Fill print on pellon (or scrap shirt)
2. Outline print, wet on wet of course, on pellon
3. Outline print, including ghost image on actual shirt.
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Moose, that sounds like a clever technique, but I'm wondering if your outline screen could have done double duty as the "stamper" as well.
1. Fill print on pellon (or scrap shirt)
2. Outline print, wet on wet of course, on pellon
3. Outline print, including ghost image on actual shirt.
Hey Frog,
Didn't think of that but I can't see why that would not work just as well and obviously (to me now :o) save a screen. I will give that a try next time, thanks for the wisdom.
mooseman
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Moose, that sounds like a clever technique, but I'm wondering if your outline screen could have done double duty as the "stamper" as well.
1. Fill print on pellon (or scrap shirt)
2. Outline print, wet on wet of course, on pellon
3. Outline print, including ghost image on actual shirt.
Hey Frog,
Didn't think of that but I can't see why that would not work just as well and obviously (to me now :o) save a screen. I will give that a try next time, thanks for the wisdom.
mooseman
If it didn't work... you could just put some sticker vinyl on the shirt side of that blank screen. Wouldn't have to coat/expose. Could even go with a screen that you are about to reclaim... just clean up the ink and go.
You know I love my vinyl. But make sure all the ink is out!!! Ughhh, that vinyl adhesive/ink reaction is SO nasty. :p
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So here are the results.
Not all that impressive but the job is done.
I must fess up... I should have trusted you guys more. I didn't base down the ink enough. So it's "transparency" is just in the fact that it wasn't printed well (not enough ink laid down.)
I guess it works but would have been better done "right".
Maybe next time.
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Shouldn't the period after "stinks" be a comma?
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Eventually, Gilly is going to pay me (or you, or someone else in his building) to proofread.
He could also always send a proof to his clients to both put the responsibility on them, (and show how things get by him! lol)
Sorry Gilligan, we all make mistakes, but you are batting 0 for 2 with the last things that you have posted.
The way I taught my kid about periods and commas are relating them to breathing when the words are spoken. A short breath, a comma, a long breath, a period. Pretty simple.
A pause during a thought, a comma, A completed thought, a period.
Now, apostrophe use in this country is a losing war, to be fought another time.
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I proof nothing, that's the whole point of a proof to start with, for the CUSTOMER to proof it. I put all spelling/proofing on the customer. If they want me to proof it then there is no point in sending them a proof.
:o
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Eventually, Gilly is going to pay me (or you, or someone else in his building) to proofread.
He could also always send a proof to his clients to both put the responsibility on them, (and show how things get by him! lol)
Sorry Gilligan, we all make mistakes, but you are batting 0 for 2 with the last things that you have posted.
They way I taught my kid about periods and commas are relating them to breathing when the words are spoken. A short breath, a comma, a long breath, a period. Pretty simple.
A pause during a thought, a comma, A completed thought, a period.
Now, apostrophe use in this country is a losing war, to be fought another time.
I seem to recall beating the apostrophe "horse" to death a few months ago...
Steve
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As you say, the horse is pretty dead, I mean minimal offense, so let's just leave it at;
Many apparently missed that thread. ;D
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I did.....
And I think I'm glad.... :)
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I blame the internet and these damn "smart" phones and texting and what not. I find myself using exceptionally bad written grammar and punctuation more and more as the years go on. My verbal grammar was hopeless from the get go, but I'd sure like to maintain some air or mild sophistication in the written word.
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BOCTAAE LOl!
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You guys sure know how to kick a guy when he's down. :p
ACTUALLY... both of those grammar mistakes were on the wife. She's the artist, I'm the technician. The brochures were proofed by me and several others... granted I didn't check spelling I just checked for content and how it read... gave some input on what I didn't like and what I did and kept proofing each edition. Others did proof for spelling... oh well.
This one was the wife and daughter (she was essentially the customer). I caught it about 75% through the run. Wasn't stopping then. I asked if they noticed and she said yes (they were for a class field trip)... she said the teacher fussed at those that said anything about it. Saying if they want it "right" then they can pay to have theirs redone. LOL But the daughter proofed and had final say over the whole project, even printed a test shirt and brought it in for her to look at. She designed the shirts on paper and the wife transfered it to illustrator.
BTW, guess which to pro "is that all we need to know" screen printers didn't lift a finger to print the shirts? ;) They did take FOUR hours sorting and folding 110 shirts... not sure how that works. LOL At least I wasn't paying them for it! haha!
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Back to the topic though...
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php?topic=2084.0 (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php?topic=2084.0)
There is the halftone test results.
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I was already off to a bad start before the internet even began and before we had any phone other than a rotary dial.
I spent quite a few years sending out dots and dashes around the world and we had our own set of abbreviations.
By the way, I still hold an Advanced License (WB5WMF), but my equipment has not been powered up in over 15 years.
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LOL... I never messed with HAM stuff but I did fool around with some CB's... I still have an export model in the shed... I use it from time to time on long trips but it's rarely worth it.
I had a buddy that had some bootleg homemade linear stuff... he had a switch with a bank of batteries in his trunk that would kick on. He could talk to Seattle from here in Louisiana... it was actually Sir Mix-a-lot on the other end... he's big into CB's also. Interesting stuff... but a whole different world than HAM.
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Well, I started out shooting skip on CB myself. It was fun, very sporadic, but whetted the appetite enough for motivation to spend the time and money and go the "right" way.
Oddly enough, I really enjoyed working Morse Code. When you get up to about 20 words per minute, you start to recognize simple words like 'the' 'and', etc as words and not letters. Like screen printing, I guess, it was something not everyone could do. Anyone could pick up a Mike and talk.
I sent in my confirmation cards for WAS (Worked All States on Morse Code) certification from ARRL. I did have to cheat a little. Alaska was a rarity to find on by chance so I called a guy on the phone to set up an on-air time schedule.
I collected cards (QSL) from many countries that no longer exist (radio wise). Mostly the old Soviet Bloc ones that have been split off. It was great fun back in the 70's, but alas a time gone by thanks, in part, to the internet.
My most notable (and tragic) confirmation card is from the People's Temple. It still gives me shivers when I think about it. The guy that was on the radio and sent the card was Albert Touchette. It's been over 30 years now and I don't think I'll ever forget that name. He later was identified as one of the group that attacked and killed the California Congressman (and others) at the airstrip. My contact was nearly a year before the suicides (12/30/77) and I remember he was very upbeat as to the good they were doing.....at the time.
http://users.tellurian.com/gjurrens/WB6MID.html (http://users.tellurian.com/gjurrens/WB6MID.html)
I still have the Kenwood TS-520, but the beam antenna and other stuff is long gone.
BTW, the halftone looked pretty good, but I only looked at one due to the extremely slow download time.
Sorry to hijack the thread.
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Hmm... I'll move them over to my server here at work and repoint the link... I have 10mb uplink here (but I get 20!!) :)
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watching the image download was like I remember with dial-up - painting one pixel line across a second.
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Got it... Sorry about that... the wife has been complaining about transfer speeds but she also has a flaky wireless card and I just assumed it was acting up again.
Obviously not... you are right though, it was EXACTLY dial up speed.
Hey, I told you this was RETRO! LOL
Now they should FLY at least 10mb speeds! Again, sorry for that please take look again.