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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: Dottonedan on September 08, 2016, 08:18:07 AM
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This poll is not to debat if you are for or against thin thread / low tension or high tension but just to get a read on the number of shops that are already embracing this concept.
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I don't understand "Only four and under base" so I'm not sure how to vote.
I have mostly Static S-Mesh screens and love them, but still have quite a few T-Mesh statics.
When they are gone, the T-mesh probably won't be replaced...except 83's 60's and 40's for specialty stuff and transfers, and I'm not even sure about those.
I love the static S-mesh and for some reason, they only lose a few newtons over their lifetimes, while T-mesh (At least MINE....) get pretty sloppy.
EDIT: I see what happened now. Thanks for fixing it Dan! I have voted now.
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we run almost exclusively thin thread here. about 50% murakami "S", and the other 40 is a combination of Saati and Dynamesh.
final 10% is specialty mesh counts (24, 38, 84) that we use for special effect printing.
out of the 100+ frames that are now in rotation, there's 30ish static 150/48's. (Generally used for single color work as they're lighter and easier to handle) For whatever reason, we're finding that the Dynamesh on the statics hold tension longer than the Murakami screens (they come in around 26N, and settle in at 22N), vs the Murakami's coming in around 22N and falling to 17-18N
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I don't understand "Only four and under base" so I'm not sure how to vote.
I have mostly Static S-Mesh screens and love them, but still have quite a few T-Mesh statics.
When they are gone, the T-mesh probably won't be replaced...except 83's 60's and 40's for specialty stuff and transfers, and I'm not even sure about those.
I love the static S-mesh and for some reason, they only lose a few newtons over their lifetimes, while T-mesh (At least MINE....) get pretty sloppy.
Posted via phone so it auto corrected. Should be "only for an under base." As in your shop does not use S thread for top colors but you do for an under base to get bright whites.
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it's all we have.
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We have mostly Smesh at this point, some older screens still in there though that are being phased out.
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All s mesh here with the exception for a few 110's and extreme low for specialty printing
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2 votes for "not needed", interesting. Out of respect of the thread starters request, I won't go into the debate. Dammit, can't help myself...must pull away from keyboard....press post, press post, trying real hard...POST.
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We have a few hundred in rotation here.
Murphy
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.. I've got about 45 S-mesh and that's all I use (I sold 30 T-statics on Craigslist last month, to free up space in the screen storage area).
I love a 180S for PFP.
The screens from Spot Color come in the door about 3-4 N/cm higher than the other 2 suppliers I've purchased from.
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we run almost exclusively thin thread here. about 50% murakami "S", and the other 40 is a combination of Saati and Dynamesh.
final 10% is specialty mesh counts (24, 38, 84) that we use for special effect printing.
out of the 100+ frames that are now in rotation, there's 30ish static 150/48's. (Generally used for single color work as they're lighter and easier to handle) For whatever reason, we're finding that the Dynamesh on the statics hold tension longer than the Murakami screens (they come in around 26N, and settle in at 22N), vs the Murakami's coming in around 22N and falling to 17-18N
Never had much of a drop on our static s-mesh screens. Murakami stretches them to 28N though. Last time I measured they were still between 25-26N.
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nothing but thin Thread S here.
John
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Im still new to s-mesh, but they are currently all I buy now. No more low tension statics for us.
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Need an option, for EXCLUSIVELY as that's all we run as well.
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I have stretched a few 158's and it definitely improved the opacity of the underbase. I am looking to slowly transition to it on this mesh and begin to test others.
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besides a few dozen low mesh specialty screens for HD we use only 2 counts of SmartMesh...180-S and 225-T. Probably about 550 or so in rotation and I think that roughly 1/8th of those are base plates.
I would love to use 225-S, but I have no control over the shop and how they handle the screens...and they aren't very kind to them.
We were all S-Mesh all around but the rapid turnover on the 225-S was impossible to keep up with. I changed to 225-T and was able to keep running at 55LPI standard and even some of the 60LPI RIPs work with no apparent interference patterns developing...and our screens aren't constantly dying on us.
There was a time where we used 200-S for base plates and 300-HD...we rarely ever had popped screens. those 300-HD are amazing. You could bring them right up to 35n, have a big hole in one spot and still retension it repeatedly.
Then the phthalate free inks came in and we had to adjust.
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Aloha Everyone!
A while back (few yrs ago) I got some S Mesh for my rollers. They worked awesome for a while then eventually they went bye bye due to breakage (had them on rollers). I'm considering getting some on aluminum frames soon but had some questions.
What mesh count should I get for underbase?
What mesh count for PFP?
What mesh count for top colors?
I'm guessing I get them from Spot Color as they are in California as I'm located in Hawaii and shipping is an arm and two legs :(
Thanks guys!
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Slowly switching over to 100% S and LX mesh. Once you get the guys used to handling it without breaking it, there is no reason not too, and plenty of reasons to make the switch.
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Opacity, to me, = Heavier ink lay down. So, that goes against my idea of what I want out of the print.
I want BRIGHT coverage...with not so much ink volume/thickness. Can it be done? Can the two go together? I assume at that point, you're talking INK TYPE.
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I coat all my s-mesh 1X1.... so, the ink layer is pretty thin.
Because the ink clears the mesh easily, you can apply less pressure and avoid driving the ink too deep into the garment.
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I coat all my s-mesh 1X1.... so, the ink layer is pretty thin.
Because the ink clears the mesh easily, you can apply less pressure and avoid driving the ink too deep into the garment.
This exactly. Opacity comes from the ink not needing to be driven into the fabric with S-mesh, so you can use less ink and get a brighter and more opaque print with S-mesh.
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Opacity, to me, = Heavier ink lay down. So, that goes against my idea of what I want out of the print.
I want BRIGHT coverage...with not so much ink volume/thickness. Can it be done? Can the two go together? I assume at that point, you're talking INK TYPE.
I can nearly guarantee you that a properly coated thin thread screen will not only lay down LESS ink than a thick thread mesh of the same count, but properly printed it will have LESS hand and MORE opacity.
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Aloha Everyone!
A while back (few yrs ago) I got some S Mesh for my rollers. They worked awesome for a while then eventually they went bye bye due to breakage (had them on rollers). I'm considering getting some on aluminum frames soon but had some questions.
What mesh count should I get for underbase?
What mesh count for PFP?
What mesh count for top colors?
I'm guessing I get them from Spot Color as they are in California as I'm located in Hawaii and shipping is an arm and two legs :(
Thanks guys!
Al @ murkami will sell direct from California.
Shane
contact info :
Alan Buffington
Technical Sales
MURAKAMI SCREEN USA
745 Monterey Pass Rd.
Monterey Park, CA
91754
800.562.3534
323.980.0662 ext 118
323.697.4334 cell
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Opacity, to me, = Heavier ink lay down. So, that goes against my idea of what I want out of the print.
I want BRIGHT coverage...with not so much ink volume/thickness. Can it be done? Can the two go together? I assume at that point, you're talking INK TYPE.
S-mesh puts down a thinner coat of ink, but with less mesh interference and often better fiber matte-down, so opacity can actually be less ink laid down, better coverage and less fibrillation, which translates to better hand and often a longer lasting print more resistant to cracking from over-drying in the home washer/dryer.
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Been slowly adding more S-Thread statics. Ordered a few from river city that were pretty good and they are holding up well. Then ordered a few more from spot color with the permanent blockout and those bad boys are a dream. Holding pretty well at 20ish newtons. I'm also becoming a big fan of this whole, no tape situation, with the exception for when I need to gang multiple images on a screen. Otherwise I really love the blockout and caulking combo spot color uses. Makes the frames feel more durable.
I definitely need to fine tune how I handle and reclaim them because I still get a few nicks here and there in the mesh, but nothing that has made them unusable yet. I think I need to avoid scrub pads or use something smoother in the reclaim process.
I don't see myself getting anything other then S-Mesh. 150, 180, and 225 pretty much handle any job I throw at it so it's nice not having to get a ton of different mesh counts.
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Mesh should be chosen for desired deposit not opacity.. The mesh should set the thickness of the substance (even if it's mayonnaise)..
At what thickness in mils- would my white underbase ink printed on a dark shirt, move from 0% (black) to 85% (white) luminosity? And I want it to be *bright-er..
Apparently, an ink's optical properties contains an L* a* B* specification:
L* informs you- that if you print with with a 150 mesh that will deposit at a specific thickness, the opacity of the ink will be between 0% transparent to 100% opaque..
(Yes so my ink gave me 73% opacity using the deposit of my 150 mesh but it's not popping)
B* informs you where in the color spectrum of between 100% yellow on one end to 100% blue on the other end does my white ink exist- the white ink pigments are made with titanium oxide which has a yellow cast so the ink needs some -blue- to negate the yellowness to make it pop (sunset vs miday sky in kelvins color tempreture) The more blue tint to the white ink, the brighter it will appear..
a* informs you of the red to green that the white ink contains- so same as above but does not interfere with brightness..
So a white underbase ink with brightness in mind would be a blueish green or a blueish red.. And the opacity was dictated by the thickness the mesh deposited..
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I definitely need to fine tune how I handle and reclaim them because I still get a few nicks here and there in the mesh, but nothing that has made them unusable yet. I think I need to avoid scrub pads or use something smoother in the reclaim process.
Murakami reccomends sponges instead of scrub pads for reclaim.
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I thought I posted this yesterday in response to Dan's post about opacity but I got an email yesterday afternoon that was quite distracting from the forum chatter. Anyway, Starchild touched on this much more eloquently than I can but I'll try to explain it in my terms which I hope don't contradict anything but since my knowledge level isn't up there I hope I explain it correctly. Depending on your ink, and each ink is different, it takes a certain mil of ink deposit to reach the desired opacity, which is also subjective, but not all ink deposits are the same in that the ink layer put down has other variables that will factor in to the appearance of opacity, like Star mentioned with the L and B reference. In my opinion, if one is to always go back to the basics of plastisol printing and 1) use a mesh that will allow the absolute least amount of pressure to print 2) without depositing too thick of a layer of ink (I guess 1 and 2 go together but oh well) 3) Then allowing the ink to sit on top of the garment 4) then maximum opacity/mil can be achieved. I can say that our goal is to reach the maximum opacity level with the thinnest layer of ink possible (opacity per mil, a ghetto reference, but a ratio that is more complicated than that but that's how I describe it) and we make it a point to do all of those things that let us achieve that goal. Most important of "those things" is to choose a mesh count that will allow the ink to shear with minimal pressure and also at a fast pace. If you choose a mesh that requires 50psi with a sharp blade then you'll have to PFPF to get that ink to eventually be on top of the shirt and reach the desired level of opacity.
But, to my amazement over all these years, I've heard many complaints about a print not being bright enough or not having enough POP, yet I can't think of a single time where a customer has complained that their print is too thick. I don't understand that but maybe it's because every customer of ours is monolithic in what they are looking for in their print and that is the color. I'm constantly trying to get thinner and thinner prints and maintain opacity and thin thread has helped us more than any other tool. And one thing to watch out for is often times a print where 95% of the ink is on top of the garment, can feel like it's thicker than a shirt with significantly more ink deposit but half of the ink being inside the shirt. The print with the ink on top will feel much softer, have more opacity, but may also feel like the thicker ink deposit when it's really not.
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Any updates on that email?
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Haven't heard anything today, but keep him in your thoughts and prayers?
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Aloha Everyone!
A while back (few yrs ago) I got some S Mesh for my rollers. They worked awesome for a while then eventually they went bye bye due to breakage (had them on rollers). I'm considering getting some on aluminum frames soon but had some questions.
What mesh count should I get for underbase?
What mesh count for PFP?
What mesh count for top colors?
I'm guessing I get them from Spot Color as they are in California as I'm located in Hawaii and shipping is an arm and two legs :(
Thanks guys!
Al @ murkami will sell direct from California.
Shane
contact info :
Alan Buffington
Technical Sales
MURAKAMI SCREEN USA
745 Monterey Pass Rd.
Monterey Park, CA
91754
800.562.3534
323.980.0662 ext 118
323.697.4334 cell
Thank you for the info
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Yep, no problem.
Shane
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Been using 59s (metric) for a long time for underbase white.
A mix of 120s, 140s, 150s, 165s for halftone/CMYK in both textile and graphic printing.
Never really been bothered outside of those mesh counts. Everything else can be a T apart from a couple of 90HD I have sitting around for printing off the edge of goofy sharpish things.
I think the 59s was a pretty good breakthrough back in the day.
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I would like to get some frames re-stretched. Does anyone have a list of vendors that offer the service (South East Preferably)?
Thanks,
Matt
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I would like to get some frames re-stretched. Does anyone have a list of vendors that offer the service (South East Preferably)?
Thanks,
Matt
No question, go to Spot Color Supply. They are out of Atlanta I believe.
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I would like to get some frames re-stretched. Does anyone have a list of vendors that offer the service (South East Preferably)?
Thanks,
Matt
No question, go to Spot Color Supply. They are out of Atlanta I believe.
Absolutely. Just started using S-mesh and will be switching all our textile printing over to it and have been using spot color supply. They have been great to work with.
I find it funny some of the screen supply places up here don't even know about s-mesh.
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Where are you guys buying the Bolt mesh from?
We just started using River City and the Mirukami Smesh is cheaper than I was paying for regular thread in canada.
Just wondering who you guys buy bolts from!
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Where are you guys buying the Bolt mesh from?
We just started using River City and the Mirukami Smesh is cheaper than I was paying for regular thread in canada.
Just wondering who you guys buy bolts from!
We buy from Murakami.
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Where are you guys buying the Bolt mesh from?
We just started using River City and the Mirukami Smesh is cheaper than I was paying for regular thread in canada.
Just wondering who you guys buy bolts from!
River City, but he's a 10 minute drive away.
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I got in 6 150S frames from Spot Color with the permanent block out with caulked interior seams. I might just be a convert and get rid of screen tape. These are freakin awesome. Saves so much time and materials. Screens are REALLY TIGHT, too. I've never had statics with S-mesh this tight.
On another note, what do I use if I want to permanently block out my other older static frames? Where do you guys get that stuff?
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I got in 6 150S frames from Spot Color with the permanent block out with caulked interior seams. I might just be a convert and get rid of screen tape. These are freakin awesome. Saves so much time and materials. Screens are REALLY TIGHT, too. I've never had statics with S-mesh this tight.
On another note, what do I use if I want to permanently block out my other older static frames? Where do you guys get that stuff?
How wide is your image area inside the blockout? They tried to talk me into it when I did my initial batch, but I didn't bite.
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Not sure. I think I have a 17 or 18" coater and it overlaps the blockout by 1/2" or so. Wider than my shirt platens on the press so wider than I'll ever need!
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Not sure. I think I have a 17 or 18" coater and it overlaps the blockout by 1/2" or so. Wider than my shirt platens on the press so wider than I'll ever need!
Never say never! ;) At least in my experience, you never know when the right job will make you want to push your parameters. (I'm on a manual, though, and one of the few pluses to that is that it's generally easier to accommodate requests for unexpected shapes/sizes/locationss.)
But your previous comments about the permanent blockout have me interested too -- I'd really like to know the actual usable image space you get out of a 23x31.
I'm also curious how many MANUAL shops use S-mesh. We don't yet, but this forum has got me really considering it. FWIW: I only use 23x31 screens, so there's no loss if we go auto in the future.
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I'd really like to know the actual usable image space you get out of a 23x31.
You are left with 15 3/4" X 23 3/4" (on a 23 X 31 with 2" border)
I would think you would want the actual print to be a bit smaller...
We also do 1" borders if that helps ;D
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I'd really like to know the actual usable image space you get out of a 23x31.
You are left with 15 3/4" X 23 3/4" (on a 23 X 31 with 2" border)
I would think you would want the actual print to be a bit smaller...
We also do 1" borders if that helps ;D
Makes sense. I don't think I have ever printed wider than 14" for an order.
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I'd really like to know the actual usable image space you get out of a 23x31.
You are left with 15 3/4" X 23 3/4" (on a 23 X 31 with 2" border)
I would think you would want the actual print to be a bit smaller...
We also do 1" borders if that helps ;D
Thanks! Good to know. (Printing 14.5"w for an order today. :) )
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I've got numbers for the "sweet spot" or the recommended maximum print size for roller frames and static alums for 23x31 and they are as follows.
Roller frame, 23x31: 14" x 17"
Static alum, 23x31: 12" x 14"
Obviously the vast majority of print shops go larger and they do it all the time, I'm not saying it shouldn't be done. These numbers are obviously not my own, they are from several sources and from guys who have done the work of figuring this stuff out so those numbers weren't pulled out of a hat. If you stay within the sweet spot mentioned above you will have better results across the board. It's not my opinion, it's just a fact. Most of the time you'll likely not notice the problems if you creep outside of the sweet spot, especially if it's only by less than an inch, and the problems will come about the further you try to stretch the limits of those screens. We will often times do adult and youth sized prints for a job and also be able to fit them both on one screen (so you don't have the excuse that one screen is better/worse than the other) and the youth print, 100% of the time, sets up quicker and prints better. There are myriad issues that CAN arise (doesn't mean they will, but the probability increases significantly) and you'll see registration issues and varying degrees of ink deposits across the print. When pairing the oversized print with a squeegee blade that isn't wide enough you start to see all kinds of strange problems.
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Thanks for that input, Alan. I read a good article some time back discussing the math involved in the "sweet spot" on the screen, but I don't recall specifics being given for frame sizes/types. For our multi-color work, we stay close to your numbers. If we push beyond that, it's for art that won't suffer from going beyond preferable tolerances. As a small shop with many younger clients, our bread & butter has been to cater to people who need to do more with less - so a lot of big, basic 1-3 color prints.
And that brings me back to the S-mesh question, if anyone still feels like talking about it. We've never used it. Does it have a place in a manual shop? Does it bring advantages to less complex artwork & the manual process, or are the benefits seen primarily in more technical auto printing? (And if this has been answered elsewhere, someone tell me, and I'll go do my homework searching old discussions!)
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Yes manual printers can benefit just as much as auto with s mesh. Wrists ever tired from mashing white ink through a 110 screen? Try a 135s and be amazed, but be gentle handling the screen.
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S mesh and manual printing is more advantageous than auto printing in my opinion. Less pressure to clear a screen for sure and more opacity. Also reclaim is much easier with S mesh.
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S mesh and manual printing is more advantageous than auto printing in my opinion. Less pressure to clear a screen for sure and more opacity. Also reclaim is much easier with S mesh.
Yep, this is how we understand it too. Just starting switching our fleet over.
Less pressure, more opacity, and higher detail. Can't go wrong if we can make them last!
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What type of press do you have?