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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: jvanick on September 18, 2016, 04:59:02 PM
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one of the topics on our minds this past week at SGIA was auto-reclaim systems.
if you have one, whats your pros/cons..
did you find that you use more chemicals or less?
how does yours work, is it a chain-type drive system where the screen goes through like a carwash, or is it a dishwasher like design?
what do you like most, or least about it?
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Funny we spent as much time together there as we did but none of it was on the show floor! I had looked into this a bit as well....
Are you looking/thinking about a full service unit ink and emulsion?
I was asking a few places about emulsion removers only. For us it doesn't make sense. The dwell time in the unit was longer than it takes us to spray out a screen. Not including time in the dip tank.
If you were using it for ink and emulsion I can see it making more of a "flow".
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
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I got one.. we call him manuel. I refill him with money once a week and he automatically just cleans all the screens, coats em and even shoots them.. all in the same day and says thank you! comes with a wife who makes a wicked enchilada to..
oh.. you were talking about machines... I don't own one of those.. yet.
leaning on the Eco Tex double bay.. i reallllly just want to push a button and get a clean screen out the other end.. no mess no fuss, no PPE other than some latex gloves and ear plugs.
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Hey Guys
Yep - been studying them for a few years now. Three are top notch guys and lower systems available. I went to the show (as I'm from here) and saw a few. The ones that I'm interested in are the top tier ones. We have settled on CCI stuff. the reason is we use CCI here and are quite satisfied in their chems. As for tec support - they are 2oo miles from us. they have been in this top tier game for quite a while and have the machine down. We are looking at their biggest as I need to get over 1000 screens a day (we are two shifts). I talked to a few owners who have these and they give good reviews. One guy in texas does 1200 screens a day and is getting another one just like it as his needs have increased.
These machines are not for the faint of hart. Yes, the chem usage goes up a little but these machines never call in sick or give "off spec" results toward the end of a shift. The ROI is a calculated event as well. One thing that was explained (by all the guys that own these things - not salesmen) is that the "touch" by a human is greatly diminished so the loss of screens by mis-handling drops. What is that cost...we'll see.
As printers, we basically do two things. We print stuff and clean up the mess. No one gets paid for cleaning up the mess. We all have been quite successful at automating the printing part, IE: direct to screen, LED, tri-lock, custom ink mixing, set-up reduction time... I think it is time to automate the part that we don't get paid for - the cleanup.
Yup - the machine is EXPENSIVE... Yup - 75 screen an hour....what is the ROI when all that is involved is a green button somewhere, two guys, and a little maintenance. I had the same question when we went DTS - I'll NEVER look back!!
We have cut the PO...
Ron
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ok you talking my game now.
I was designing a plant to wash screens in.. 5000 screens a day and CCI was the one who has the big automatic line that can handle your needs.
Tadd can set you up with what you need. Good call.
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ok, so now we're talking...
2 votes for CCI.. what makes CCI different/better than say Grunig or Lotus Holland?
absolutely not being argumentative here... more interested in what makes a better system (so maybe I can build one).
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If I had the backing and money I've got a screen reclaim machine idea I've had for a few years now that would knock your socks off and I think a ton of shops would want to buy one. You would think the big companies would have build this already, but most of those companies think big and see dollar signs I'm thinking small and seeing a better work flow. I've learn over the years if you think you got a great idea get all your ducks in a row and don't tell everyone, it so nice that I just want to show everyone the idea maybe one day I will, as of now no one has made anything close to what my idea is and it's very simple maybe because I'm simple minded ;D, but I 'd love to have one sitting in my shop.
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What would be the price on an entry level auto reclaim system for a small shop.
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We have a grunig. When it needs a new pump or part, it is expensive and difficult to figure out compatible replacements. You usually have to wait for your part to be shipped from Europe as the distributor, Kiwo, has no parts on-hand.
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I notice that CCI's units are very modular. You can stick an inspection/manual touchup booth in line, or a dryer, etc. That could make their systems work in a lot of shops.
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I got one.. we call him manuel. I refill him with money once a week and he automatically just cleans all the screens, coats em and even shoots them.. all in the same day and says thank you! comes with a wife who makes a wicked enchilada to..
oh.. you were talking about machines... I don't own one of those.. yet.
leaning on the Eco Tex double bay.. i reallllly just want to push a button and get a clean screen out the other end.. no mess no fuss, no PPE other than some latex gloves and ear plugs.
I want/need one of these, finding reliable people to reclaim"properly and efficiently" is dam near impossible around here. A machine shows up on time and runs runs runs. I'm tired of having to stay till 1am because some bafoon can't show up for their shift, or even do it right.
Sorry for the venting!! ;D
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There is a lot to be said for automating this process. A secretary could be taught to push a green button. An owner could push the same button if he/she had to.
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We have a grunig. When it needs a new pump or part, it is expensive and difficult to figure out compatible replacements. You usually have to wait for your part to be shipped from Europe as the distributor, Kiwo, has no parts on-hand.
Which Model of Grunig machines do you run?
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There is a lot to be said for automating this process. A secretary could be taught to push a green button. An owner could push the same button if he/she had to.
I bet you could talk Pierre into getting you an arduino with a solenoid that could press that button.
Getting it to load screens might be a trick though... ;)
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I want/need one of these, finding reliable people to reclaim"properly and efficiently" is dam near impossible around here. A machine shows up on time and runs runs runs. I'm tired of having to stay till 1am because some bafoon can't show up for their shift, or even do it right.
...this is the primary reason I am interested in one of these units. I don't know what is so difficult about doing this well and at a reasonable pace. I've got many other things to worry about, that's why I hire people to do this. But the amount of people who have no idea what a reasonable amount of call-outs is (hint: it's defined in the employee handbook, and we are rather generous), the fact that nobody has any idea what "on time" means in this day and age and that even less people can follow direction on how to clean a screen and destencil AND rinse completely just blows my mind. The guy I want to promote to my direct assistant called out again today...again this month. He is begging to be my assistant but I told him that an assistant has to be here to open the department and get things running at the very least until I get here...but no. I've called out once in the past 10 years. (I almost made it a full 10, but I had this delirium inducing flu where I was afraid to drive). Sure, I'm not expecting a decade of perfect service...but, crap, a two month period for my goddamned assistant doesn't seem absurd to ask for. I never thought I had an exception work ethic...hell, I always thought I was a bit of a slacker...but kids these days (I know, I said it) make me wonder what the hell is going on.
These machines...they seem very mechanically elaborate and I suspect less reliable than your average automatic press...and less friendly to repair. Assuming they do 100% acceptable job around 100% of the time (which for the money I would hope for), what's the MTBF for the entire system as a whole? What are the failure points? I repair everything else around here, why not this too? It'd be a fair trade-off if I didn't have to worry about production grinding to a halt because someone "really wore myself out with that last job yesterday and need a day to recoup"...
...in a ~200 screen a day shop how often should I expect to repair the machine, how difficult is the average repair, etc? I'm assuming most of it is probably pumps, motors, drive assemblies...simple stuff. How many years of non-stop use can I expect before a major or show-stopping malfunction?
I don't care if it's an automated screen cleaning unit, destencil unit or [gasp] an all-in-one unit. If they can work at high volume and reliably I'm pretty sure I can slap people with a convincing ROI number until I get one.
I don't want to automate, I want to employ people. People don't seem to want to be employed to do this.
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as we continue to automate other things around the shop, reclaim is one of the last major areas. I'd rather employ awesome press people and artists than a screen cleaner or coater. Plus, at the rates we can afford to pay screen room people, we'll never get better than McDonalds quality. If I can have the same guy (or heck, the press ops) send a screen down a belt and have it come out on the other side ready to dry and coat, while they're doing everything else, I've just won not only production, but more efficiency, and very likely more consistency.
That being said, the units I looked at have me concerned... we "de-haze" with ink remover after blowing the stencils out on each and every screen, and we degrease with directPrep2 on every screen. I'll bet I can count on 1 hand how many pinholes we've had in the last year, and our mesh lasts 100's of cycles through reclaim before it fails, and still doesn't have anywhere near the staining I see some people having. If I'm going to build or buy a machine to do this, it needs to run at the same quality, if not better, than a human.
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as we continue to automate other things around the shop, reclaim is one of the last major areas. I'd rather employ awesome press people and artists than a screen cleaner or coater. Plus, at the rates we can afford to pay screen room people, we'll never get better than McDonalds quality. If I can have the same guy (or heck, the press ops) send a screen down a belt and have it come out on the other side ready to dry and coat, while they're doing everything else, I've just won not only production, but more efficiency, and very likely more consistency.
That being said, the units I looked at have me concerned... we "de-haze" with ink remover after blowing the stencils out on each and every screen, and we degrease with directPrep2 on every screen. I'll bet I can count on 1 hand how many pinholes we've had in the last year, and our mesh lasts 100's of cycles through reclaim before it fails, and still doesn't have anywhere near the staining I see some people having. If I'm going to build or buy a machine to do this, it needs to run at the same quality, if not better, than a human.
I did see , "in person", some nasty diry, inkee screens go into the 2 bay M&R automatic screen cleaning system, come out, zero "pepper", that's what I call little bits in the mesh lol, Zero haze or stains, and grease free when we were up at the old factory. At that time, they were experimenting with a mix of Easiway Supra, and 701. It was very very impressive, they were ready to be racked to dry and be coated, not needing another rinse at all.
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I have similar concerns to jvanick but what I've realized is that you could just run the screen through again if 1 in so many aren't up to snuff. Easy protocol there. I bet staining would be greatly diminished since you wouldn't have any screens piling up, they'd be getting cleaned immediately after press runs.
The ideal for me is full reclaim, degrease and dry with the unit dumping screens into the coating/screen area.
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I'm not smart enough to figure out how to post a link here, but check out the Dane video on youtube. It has an automated system the reclaims, dries, coats, images, develops, and dries. I could handle something like that. $$$$
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSdXPqQ9mug (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSdXPqQ9mug)
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That's part of it. Then it does imaging, developing and drying. Thanks though. Someday I'll learn that stuff.
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that wiper thing on the coater troughs is cool!
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I thought the same thing. That has always been one of those things I wondered about with the auto coaters since I know if I am coating a bunch of screens at once I occasionally have to wipe of a bit of gunk on the edge of my coater.
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So is anyone that has an auto reclaimer actually getting clean screens ready to coat out the end of the machine?
We have an IT (Image Technologies) reclaimer, and since it doesn't fully reclaim all the emulsion, we aren't degreasing in the unit, so we do a post emulsion and degrease,
So my question is, is anyone who is running water base screens with hardener or an emulsion that holds up to long water base runs getting fully reclaimed, ready to coat screens at the end of their machine?
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Zane:
Are you pre soaking the screens in a dip tank with emulsion remover?
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So my question is, is anyone who is running water base screens with hardener or an emulsion that holds up to long water base runs getting fully reclaimed, ready to coat screens at the end of their machine?
If I had a machine, I would not expect that out of it. Hardened screens do require more process time. Get a dip tank and let em soak before going into the machine.
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Our Ryonet rep gave us a really nice offer awhile back on a lotus holland system and the fact we use hardened, highly water resistant emulsion was brought up.
The key with any of the systems seems to be to run it at the appropriate speed with the right chemicals. This is probably even more important with resistant screens.
If that still isn't working, they recommend running the screen through twice. I actually kind of like that idea, keeps it very simple if not annoying.
But I am with others, dip tank prior to auto reclaim has got to be the way to go for water resistant screens. And why not? It's not really adding a big step. If you kept the tank chem warm and agitated it would probably make that auto reclaim unit fly. Another thing about water resistant screens is they don't slough off in the dip tank typically so no worries there. You might even save space and stages on the unit. Like, if you used a chem in the dip that primarily attacked emulsion in the tanks and then....
auto reclaim for: press wash to strip emulsion and some ink > ink/stain removal/wash > degrease/rinse > dry
I think that most of the auto units are setup for plastisol emulsions which melt right off. A wb heavy shop should probably re-think the system.