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General => General Discussion and ??? => Topic started by: TCT on November 07, 2016, 09:45:02 PM
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Anyone ever charged a shop fee or something? Auto repair places will do it sometimes. Basically a PITA charge.
The thought came into my mind today as I was cleaning a screen(it was awesome, our screen cleaner literally walked out the other day without saying squat. So today was my turn) that had plastisol on it. We are probably 95%+ WB/DC these days. Well those screens are easy as all get out to clean. Well here is a screen with plastisol on it. I was so damn pissed at how much longer and messier it was I thought we should charge more for doing plastisol. Anyone else thought of something like this and I guess more importantly, had success charging for it?
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HaHHHHHHahahahahaahahahahahq :o :o ;D ::)
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This ∆
Softie! ::)
A 5%, PITA eh?
(WB wannabe here)
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Everyone here from ink room to press to reclaim gets bummed when we have a contract job come in that is plastisol. Just depends on what you are used too.
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If you are serious about compensation for this, crunch the numbers, raise your prices across the board, and itemize a discount on your waterbase.
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ive been knee deelp in both and ill take plastisol over WB these days.
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If you can get away with charging more, I say do it. However, in a business where clients will leave you over a nickle or dime, it might be tough depending on your market.
Just out of curiosity, are you mainly water based because your clients request it, or was it just a decision you made to make it your standard ink? My dryer is way to small to handle any type of water based/discharge, but I'd like to make a transition to the discharge/WB side of things in the future.
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If you are serious about compensation for this, crunch the numbers, raise your prices across the board, and itemize a discount on your waterbase.
Bingo!!
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Just out of curiosity, are you mainly water based because your clients request it, or was it just a decision you made to make it your standard ink?
I worked for a guy who simply didn't like cleaning plastisol so he went wb/dc and pushed it on his customers.
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Alex, dam I don't even know what to say about that LOL....you clean a screen with ink that we've been using for years and have an epiphany...let us all know how that turns out ;D
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The WB/DC thing kind came upon us because of people asking for it. After we got use to it, it is just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay easier. Water clean up, I cleaned 10 screens in like 25 min this morning, the list goes on. It is by default what we print with.
Funny story I tell(no me telling a story ;D ) where it really dawned on me how little plastisol we do. We had a new guy work here for maybe 2 months or so, a job we printed was plastisol, not really thinking about it when the job was done it was Dan's job to tear down as we set up something new. After taking the screen down and bringing the squeegee and flood bar to the sink to spray off, he came back to me and said "this isn't washing off". I then realized this was the first time he had experienced plastisol!
The only real plastisol jobs we get are contract ones which I would have NO problem raising the price on, and or getting rid of in general...
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The WB/DC thing kind came upon us because of people asking for it. After we got use to it, it is just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay easier. Water clean up, I cleaned 10 screens in like 25 min this morning, the list goes on. It is by default what we print with.
Funny story I tell(no me telling a story ;D ) where it really dawned on me how little plastisol we do. We had a new guy work here for maybe 2 months or so, a job we printed was plastisol, not really thinking about it when the job was done it was Dan's job to tear down as we set up something new. After taking the screen down and bringing the squeegee and flood bar to the sink to spray off, he came back to me and said "this isn't washing off". I then realized this was the first time he had experienced plastisol!
The only real plastisol jobs we get are contract ones which I would have NO problem raising the price on, and or getting rid of in general...
I've mentioned before, an apparent failed experiment from Union twenty or more years ago with an ink called "Plawtersol" which was a plastisol that did clean up with water. Interestingly, the hybrid plastisol discharges from Union and Wilflex also gain this characteristic.
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The WB/DC thing kind came upon us because of people asking for it. After we got use to it, it is just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay easier. Water clean up, I cleaned 10 screens in like 25 min this morning, the list goes on. It is by default what we print with.
Funny story I tell(no me telling a story ;D ) where it really dawned on me how little plastisol we do. We had a new guy work here for maybe 2 months or so, a job we printed was plastisol, not really thinking about it when the job was done it was Dan's job to tear down as we set up something new. After taking the screen down and bringing the squeegee and flood bar to the sink to spray off, he came back to me and said "this isn't washing off". I then realized this was the first time he had experienced plastisol!
The only real plastisol jobs we get are contract ones which I would have NO problem raising the price on, and or getting rid of in general...
I've mentioned before, an apparent failed experiment from Union twenty or more years ago with an ink called "Plawtersol" which was a plastisol that did clean up with water. Interestingly, the hybrid plastisol discharges from Union and Wilflex also gain this characteristic.
Whoa, seriously? That's hilarious.
We do a lot of wb/dc and still some hsa here but while plastisol may not be king but it still has it's kingdom in the shop. Too many fabrics + art that can't happen in a single order with wb/dc/hsa (well, maybe hsa but we don't have a 20 head oval with 10 flashes...). I also love the dc ub plastisol top combination for sim and process work, very separation and press friendly with a finished print that rivals straight wb/dc.
Only major complaint is finding a singular ink cleaner that will melt the plasti effectively and still work well to get into the mesh knuckles and kick out the wb pigs.
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Only major complaint is finding a singular ink cleaner that will melt the plasti effectively and still work well to get into the mesh knuckles and kick out the wb pigs.
Saati IR26 has worked great for us for both plastisol and waterbase jobs.. (even cleans up the Matsui Spot Black very nicely)...
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Only major complaint is finding a singular ink cleaner that will melt the plasti effectively and still work well to get into the mesh knuckles and kick out the wb pigs.
Saati IR26 has worked great for us for both plastisol and waterbase jobs.. (even cleans up the Matsui Spot Black very nicely)...
agreed. full strength works well. BUT we did have to find a better chem. for staining.
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Well we use easi-way 701 takes plastisol ink off quick and easy.
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Remember though...The clean up may be easier but with discharge there is more waste at the end of runs or even at the end of a shift on unfinished orders. In some cases added exposure times, different taping processes?, Hardner?. There are other costs not associated with plastisol that need to be considered that effect the bottom line. We love waterbase inks but we price with all things considered and that may warrant a price increase over plastisol for your shop instead.
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I've wondered about this when we do WB, as we're all plastisol... We have almost no request for WB, seriously, next to nothing. So what's so hard about cleaning plastisol out of a screen?
Steve
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hijack for a second.
what inks are you guys liking for your multi color wb prints on non dischargable garments? we discharge when we can but I am getting sick of having to go to plastisol because the order has some hoodies mixed in. I'm looking at green galaxy and virus at the moment. I tried cci pure white and it dried up in the mesh way too fast for us... that was brutal.
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I've wondered about this when we do WB, as we're all plastisol... We have almost no request for WB, seriously, next to nothing. So what's so hard about cleaning plastisol out of a screen?
Steve
My thoughts too, squirt of beany doo and 5 second brush down and rinse.
We have way too may garments being printed that won't discharge to even dream of all WB/DC.
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Remember though...The clean up may be easier but with discharge there is more waste at the end of runs or even at the end of a shift on unfinished orders. In some cases added exposure times, different taping processes?, Hardner?. There are other costs not associated with plastisol that need to be considered that effect the bottom line. We love waterbase inks but we price with all things considered and that may warrant a price increase over plastisol for your shop instead.
All good points especially these here. I posted a thread on this if Frog is interested in the research. Also provided the pics for Joe Cs article that addressed this . Most know where I lean however this a place and cost increase/decrease consideration for both. In al actuality this can be project specific within the same shop environment.....much more on this however its been mostly covered
tp
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Yes, at the end of the day besides making client happy it is about the bottom line. And that is why we are mostly water base and discharge. All colors / pantones premixed in gallons and 5 gallons. Not activated of course. Use as needed. There are different formulas and ways of doing that for what you need to print. So waste is a bare minimum for us. Tape? Hardy any. Just 4 strips inside the screen and if you hate tape there are ways not to use it. I don't know where the myth came from that water base discharge screens need extra tape. Exposure times? With the new emulsions out now there are ones that expose in seconds / light units that work just fine. Post exposure? Sure, but all screens should be made in advance, not right before hitting press. Ink cost? Discharge is cheaper than plastisol every time I have checked. Except HSA but charge accordingly. Set ups? Why do two screens when you can do one? I know there are many shops on here that can do one hit whites or yellow or whatever color you need but for every shop on here that can do it correctly there are 75 out there that do white / flash / roller / white or some combo like that. Multiple screens and all that expensive flashing. No thanks. Electricity here in New Orleans is not cheap. There are other benefits for us but this is just us. As I posted earlier in this thread it is just what you are used to. What works for you and your clients and what makes them happy and you profitable. And yes, when clients do ask for plastisol we print it. But 95% or so of our clients want water base / discharge so it depends on your client base. If they wanted plastisol we would do it. But that happens mostly to be our contract side of things. So just do what makes you and your clients happy and make money! Go home be happy and repeat.
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Yes, at the end of the day besides making client happy it is about the bottom line. And that is why we are mostly water base and discharge. All colors / pantones premixed in gallons and 5 gallons. Not activated of course. Use as needed. There are different formulas and ways of doing that for what you need to print. So waste is a bare minimum for us. Tape? Hardy any. Just 4 strips inside the screen and if you hate tape there are ways not to use it. I don't know where the myth came from that water base discharge screens need extra tape. Exposure times? With the new emulsions out now there are ones that expose in seconds / light units that work just fine. Post exposure? Sure, but all screens should be made in advance, not right before hitting press. Ink cost? Discharge is cheaper than plastisol every time I have checked. Except HSA but charge accordingly. Set ups? Why do two screens when you can do one? I know there are many shops on here that can do one hit whites or yellow or whatever color you need but for every shop on here that can do it correctly there are 75 out there that do white / flash / roller / white or some combo like that. Multiple screens and all that expensive flashing. No thanks. Electricity here in New Orleans is not cheap. There are other benefits for us but this is just us. As I posted earlier in this thread it is just what you are used to. What works for you and your clients and what makes them happy and you profitable. And yes, when clients do ask for plastisol we print it. But 95% or so of our clients want water base / discharge so it depends on your client base. If they wanted plastisol we would do it. But that happens mostly to be our contract side of things. So just do what makes you and your clients happy and make money! Go home be happy and repeat.
Brandon, how many presses are you runnin down there?
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Not enough but that will be changing soon. PM sent.
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If 95 % of your work.is wb charge more for wb. Why make more on only 5%? Plus everyone will pay more for the benefit of the environment. We do it with food, car care, clothing, cars and list goes on.
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If 95 % of your work.is wb charge more for wb. Why make more on only 5%? Plus everyone will pay more for the benefit of the environment. We do it with food, car care, clothing, cars and list goes on.
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
They may pay more for this perception, but has WB really been shown to be a lot better for the environment? I have heard over the years that the claim has been exaggerated, not proven, but easily believed due to the word "water" which in and of itself seems benign. I actually understand that with waterbased and discharge inks, actually more goes into the environment than with plastisol which either goes on the shirt, or back in the bucket.
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If 95 % of your work.is wb charge more for wb. Why make more on only 5%? Plus everyone will pay more for the benefit of the environment. We do it with food, car care, clothing, cars and list goes on.
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
They may pay more for this perception, but has WB really been shown to be a lot better for the environment? I have heard over the years that the claim has been exaggerated, not proven, but easily believed due to the word "water" which in and of itself seems benign. I actually understand that with waterbased and discharge inks, actually more goes into the environment than with plastisol which either goes on the shirt, or back in the bucket.
If perception is reality why not capitalize on it?
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Didn't read all the post, but I started with water base inks back in the day, but when I switch to plastisol I was as happy as a pig eating slop and still happy to this day. Water base inks have there place in many shops but can pose many problems and extra cost just like discharge inks can, I would say if your going to use those inks you have to do your homework and know your market and garments if you plan to print with those inks, the only thing I really see that DC/WB has over plastisol is clean up.
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I've had the argument many times with people who assume WB is better for the environment just cause it has water in it. With no regard to fact that they just wash it down the drain with no filter.
If you were to look on ETSY it's the big selling point from printers who say they are using Earthy friendly inks. It infuriates me.
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If 95 % of your work.is wb charge more for wb. Why make more on only 5%? Plus everyone will pay more for the benefit of the environment. We do it with food, car care, clothing, cars and list goes on.
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
They may pay more for this perception, but has WB really been shown to be a lot better for the environment? I have heard over the years that the claim has been exaggerated, not proven, but easily believed due to the word "water" which in and of itself seems benign. I actually understand that with waterbased and discharge inks, actually more goes into the environment than with plastisol which either goes on the shirt, or back in the bucket.
If perception is reality why not capitalize on it?
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
As long as it is not touted as such, and never comes up in conversation with the client during the deal, no lie, no misrepresentation, no foul.
Of course, according to the amount of posts here about water based and discharge, I'd say that one could easily justify an added cost, as, besides TCT whining about screen cleaning, it in no way appears easier to master and deal with than plastisol.
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We've started to charge more for WB/DC/HSA mainly because of the slower production speeds. We are a small shop and have to slow our dryer way down to get a proper cure.
Also ink colors often have to be tweaked and adjusted (hopefully over time we'll get better with that).
We also consider the softer hand a Premium product so that's another point on raising the price.
Plastisol is cheaper for us, orders move faster through our shop, colors are more consistent and reliable on all materials.
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We are a small shop and have to slow our dryer way down to get a proper cure.
This alone is a big deal. For us, the only real motivator for WB/DC is customers who want softer prints*. Yes, faster cleanup is nice... but plastisol cleanup can be put off until it's convenient - days, if necessary. (Small shop realities). Slower output of waterbase, not so nice.
(*Okay, I want softer prints, too. Ink as soft as the shirt is a sort of holy grail for me. But it's hardly the only factor to be considered.)
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This is all just so interesting. It all comes down to what you are use to. When we migrated over to WB/DC it was to fill a demand we were seeing. It sucked for a few months. After that it is just ask around easier for us. Again for us, production speed is no different. Using a diazo emulsion I'll admit takes a few extra seconds, or even maybe extra minute to expose. But I'll take that any day as a trade off. Aside from colors that don't discharge so well, it eliminates the thought or need for underbase. We just ran 1200 hoodies today with a bright neon green, my guess is my total cost to produce those in the end is going to be cheaper than someone that would run that job in plastisol. Not to mention all the basic 1 color on black T's, for us it is really just 1 color!
I admit, in the last year probably I have become a ink/discharge snob. The feeling of plastisol on shirts really disgusts me ;D
I don't know that anyone has ever called me "sane" or "smart" but give me a 8 color discharge job over a plastisol job any day!! :P
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Regarding inks being environmentally friendly it's really only how you dispose of it. Unless you are straight water base only like Permaset and they are actually certified. And they do not make discharge for that reason.
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If 95 % of your work.is wb charge more for wb. Why make more on only 5%? Plus everyone will pay more for the benefit of the environment. We do it with food, car care, clothing, cars and list goes on.
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That doesn't make sense. We have our rates for what we print. Which is mostly water base.
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If 95 % of your work.is wb charge more for wb. Why make more on only 5%? Plus everyone will pay more for the benefit of the environment. We do it with food, car care, clothing, cars and list goes on.
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
That doesn't make sense. We have our rates for what we print. Which is mostly water base.
Um the thought being raise prices on what you do more of you will make more money than only raising it on what you do 5% of the time.
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We price for WB/DC as standard here, if that's what you mean.
At a contract level it's normal to price low, low, low and then charge for everything on up however.
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To put it another way raise prices a little on everything and you always win.
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