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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: Gilligan on November 02, 2011, 03:02:21 PM
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I have been keeping an eye out for a good deal on roller frames... probably just getting myself into trouble. But I can't help it when I read threads about the better tension and how for only a little more than statics you can get used rollers.
But I have rear clamps.
I'd like to eventually get an auto but I have no time frame on such an expansion now.
I have about half 20x24's and 23x31's right now (smaller are wooden and larger are aluminum).
Press is a Antec Legend 6/4.
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I think you can get 23x31 newmans with a square bar attachment. That way you can use them on your manual now and still use them if/when you get an auto.
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I'm of course game with ghetto rigging something up to use all round frames IF that is fairly acceptable. (read about it in endless's workhorse refurb thread)
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If you dont want to go with a square bar you can always order some side clamps from vastex that attach to any rear clamp press. Personally, the only way I'd use side clamps is with airlocks though.
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I'm not opposed to square bar by any means... I just don't want to limit myself when looking at the used market if there is a suitable work around for all round frames.
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If you want to stay with manual size MZX frames. Stretch makes 3 manual frame sizes with square bar ends and 1 with all rollers.
MZX-UL™ 18" x 20" ID (45.72 x 50.80cm) 3 rollers with 18" square bar
MZX-UL™ 23" x 26" OD (58.42 x 66.04cm) 3 rollers with 23" square bar
MZX-UL™ 23" x 28" OD (58.42 x 71.12cm) 3 rollers with 23" square bar
MZX-UL™ 23" x 31" OD (58.42 x 78.74cm) 4 rollers (no square bar)
The mzx 23 x 31 is considered a large manual frames for presses that have side clamps and can handle the weight and size of the 23 31's.
Finding used 23x26/28's are tough as they're a specific kind of frame so i suggest buying the 23 31 mzx and use an adapter, available from newman, that allows the clamping of round tubes in a back clamp press. This way the frame grows with you if you ever automate.
(http://www.stretchdevices.com/sites/default/files/medium_IMG_0429.JPG)(http://www.stretchdevices.com/sites/default/files/medium_IMG_0427.JPG)
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I don't recommend using the clamp adapters with 4 rollers and rear clamps. They work but I don't think they were made with that intention. If you want 4 roller, get side clamps.
I also notice that we popped mesh along the clamp area on those screens we used in this manner. If you're staying with manual for awhile just find a good deal on square bars, use 'em and sell 'em later if you don't need them anymore. My 2c. on it.
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I've seen those clips before... but I thought they were something someone fabbed up.
How exactly do they work? I mean, I get that you clamp down on them but how does it keep the frame from spinning? Does it have teeth to it?
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Good to know Zoo.
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I've seen those clips before... but I thought they were something someone fabbed up.
How exactly do they work? I mean, I get that you clamp down on them but how does it keep the frame from spinning? Does it have teeth to it?
The ID of the adapter is slightly smaller than the OD of the tube.
For rear clamp press;s, they make a long single clamp. Unless you swing and handle your press like a mad ape, I've never had any issues with the clamps. It's when you tighten to much and over push or swing with to much force that things start to go wrong.
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I also notice that we popped mesh along the clamp area on those screens we used in this manner.
Don't blame the clamp, blame the process or lack of one.
Were you using mesh protection tape along the exposed part of the tube? Unprotected mesh along the roller underside is the #1 reason for mesh failure of roller frames.
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Speaking of... how long does mesh last in rollers.
As I understand it one benefit is the "work hardened" screens have excellent tension. But how long do these hold up for? 1k prints, 5k prints, 20k prints, more? Obviously it is a YMV situation but what is typical with average use. In a manual shop with reclaiming after say 100 prints on average?
If it matters, and I suspect it does, my chems are Chromaline Blue (metal halide exposure with sun dry/post exposure), IR14 (what is the difference in that and IR4?), ER2 and HR6.
I'm suspecting that in the long run, performance aside, rollers will save you money by being able to replace you mesh (less often) by yourself and just buy the mesh vs having to use a restretching service.
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I think you can get 23x31 newmans with a square bar attachment. That way you can use them on your manual now and still use them if/when you get an auto.
23x31 and 23 x26 with square bar new yes, used VERY rare find. I've been keeping an eye out for the past few years.
Side clamps, problem solved ;D
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Speaking of... how long does mesh last in rollers.
until it breaks
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Speaking of... how long does mesh last in rollers.
until it breaks
And barring someone doing something stupid (hitting a corner), under "normal" use (on a manual press) how long should that take?
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We've been runnin Retentionable Frames for more than a year now and have 2-3 original 200s @ 35-40N, have more than 70,000 impressions and are still in rotation and work great. We use Sefar mesh everything stretched 32-40N. Ours bust due to mis-handeling.
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Speaking of... how long does mesh last in rollers.
until it breaks
And barring someone doing something stupid (hitting a corner), under "normal" use (on a manual press) how long should that take?
Honestly I'm an all newman shop and my screens will last 2 months because I do not properly store them , sometimes I do not even get the chance to retighten them because theres a hole somewhere. I'm terriable with my screen mesh. I also use cheap packing tape that in no way protects them. On the other hand I have a screen for a local pizza shop that orders 4 times year for the last 4 years, same screen from the first print run that's still tight .
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Almost seems to be a no brainer then.
Remeshing cost will quickly over take a retentionable's initial cost.
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Almost seems to be a no brainer then.
Remeshing cost will quickly over take a retentionable's initial cost.
retens and bulk mesh by the bolt is the way to go , a 55 yrd bolt of mesh will last me 6-8 months
You can get used newmans on ebay for about 20 bucks a frame, least that's my price limit and I have collected 60 of them over the years at that price.
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I also notice that we popped mesh along the clamp area on those screens we used in this manner.
Don't blame the clamp, blame the process or lack of one.
Were you using mesh protection tape along the exposed part of the tube? Unprotected mesh along the roller underside is the #1 reason for mesh failure of roller frames.
Two layers of Yellow Newman tape, mesh protectors and lots of care in the process. This was with 305/30 and 330/30 mesh counts, which are fragile. There is nothing more we could have done to protect the mesh within reason it's just not, in my experience, a good idea to use the method you suggested across all mesh counts/thread diameters. I'm not blaming anything. We were printing flatstock, one color at a time, so we were not swinging the screens around at all, let alone like a 'mad ape'. It was a quick fix for an unexpected project and it failed in our experience to use the adapters in that manner as it cost a lot of money in mesh.
You are fighting a losing game trying to clamp a round tube, adapters or no, from a single support point and then rotate that setup around and around, up and down. It's simply going to slip or pinch a little and on some mesh that's enough to break it. That's the point I'm making, based on experience not generic blanket statements about roller frames although your statements are, generally speaking, true and sound advice, just not in all cases.
Gilligan here, as yourself, may have no problems with such a setup. In fact, I have a bucket of M3 clamp adapters if you'd like to purchase them Gilligan, we were using ours to aid in clamping roller frames in the Chameleon which has a big alum bar for clamping. The rollers tended to walk a lot when clamping with that setup. The Anatol uses leveling pads on the end of the studs and clamps the frame with much less movement so I don't think we need them anymore.
On longevity, dedicate yourself to making every place the screen sits 'mesh safe', use protection tape and fabric protectors as well as good handling and proper tensions and you'll find many of your screens lasting quite a long time, years in fact.
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Honestly I'm an all newman shop and my screens will last 2 months because I do not properly store them , sometimes I do not even get the chance to retighten them because theres a hole somewhere. I'm terriable with my screen mesh. I also use cheap packing tape that in no way protects them. On the other hand I have a screen for a local pizza shop that orders 4 times year for the last 4 years, same screen from the first print run that's still tight .
WTF? I'd go insane if that happened here. I go ape S when I find a hole or a busted screen once a month.
We have some screens with mesh that were stretched in 1996, 99, and 2001. The shop we bought them from marked on the frames the month and year they put the mesh in them so I know the mesh is that old. We only have about 6 that have really old mesh in them since I've remeshed almost all of our newmans over the last 2 years. I'd seriously guess that they have at least a hundred thousand print strokes on them. The shop we bought them from had 3 autos and 4 manuals and did 2 million a year in screen printing sales.
I love our roller frames, I think they are simply the best screen a printer could have and one hell of a long-term investment.
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thousands, and thousands, and (yes, thousands) of impressions. More get damaged in the cleaning and/or reclaiming process than on the press.
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Yeah that was part of my concerns... The frequent use of harsh chemicals more than the act of pushing a squeegee.
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For what it's worth, at one shop I worked at I did hundreds (thousands?) of setups with Newman MZX frames with clamp adapters on a Hopkins press. No issues. Once you get it down it's a cakewalk.
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Honestly I'm an all newman shop and my screens will last 2 months because I do not properly store them , sometimes I do not even get the chance to retighten them because theres a hole somewhere. I'm terriable with my screen mesh. I also use cheap packing tape that in no way protects them. On the other hand I have a screen for a local pizza shop that orders 4 times year for the last 4 years, same screen from the first print run that's still tight .
WTF? I'd go insane if that happened here. I go ape S when I find a hole or a busted screen once a month.
I have my screens stacked on a shelf like books when I should have dividers between them. They also clang around in and out of the dip tank . I always thought I was using crappy mesh.
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Honestly I'm an all newman shop and my screens will last 2 months because I do not properly store them , sometimes I do not even get the chance to retighten them because theres a hole somewhere. I'm terriable with my screen mesh. I also use cheap packing tape that in no way protects them. On the other hand I have a screen for a local pizza shop that orders 4 times year for the last 4 years, same screen from the first print run that's still tight .
WTF? I'd go insane if that happened here. I go ape S when I find a hole or a busted screen once a month.
I have my screens stacked on a shelf like books when I should have dividers between them. They also clang around in and out of the dip tank . I always thought I was using crappy mesh.
I'd love to use you as a poster child for how not to use roller frames.. ROFL!!
How long with the mesh last...
We had a guy hit the booth in Texas who has a roller frame from 1986 with the old nylon end caps. It has 80 mesh in it stretched to 50n. He uses it every time he was an order for metallic or glitter, about 5 times a yr. Said he has other screens that were in excess of 10 yrs old still in working use. His secret is to handle all of his screens with the utmost care and tape every surface the screen could come in contact with.
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For what it's worth, at one shop I worked at I did hundreds (thousands?) of setups with Newman MZX frames with clamp adapters on a Hopkins press. No issues. Once you get it down it's a cakewalk.
Same here.
It's always the guy with monkey grip who facks it all up. Every shop has/had one of those guys. Tightens every single fastener on the press with a wrench and punches holes in roller frame and static tubes with his 3-4 knobs that are missing the plastic button bottom. .. 'so things won't move' and then proceeds to abuse the living sh!t outa the press as he clanks and bangs away at that 3 color.. Then he's always registering stuff and complaining how bad this press is..
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I think I have some 23x28's hanging around the shop. I'll measure tomorrow.
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I think I have some 23x28's hanging around the shop. I'll measure tomorrow.
I'm listening. :)
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Funny you should mention that John, we have quite a few rollers from the very first batch made and sold and there is no telling how many millions of imprints the frames have been a part of.
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So I've been eye'ing ebay for a good deal on some frames.
Today... Boom... 4 frames for 50 bucks bid, 60 bucks buy it now with 10 bucks shipping.
I'm about to pull the trigger and I'm doing my usual check for scams (feedback, location blah blah blah) and what do I see... the guy is right here in my town!!
LOL... save the shipping and I'm gonna shoot for his starting bid price of $50 since now he doesn't have to bother with shipping and paypal/ebay fees!
Going check them out this afternoon. LOL
This is the first deal that I came across on ebay (for this) that I was ready to jump on, small world sometime.
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So I've been eye'ing ebay for a good deal on some frames.
Today... Boom... 4 frames for 50 bucks bid, 60 bucks buy it now with 10 bucks shipping.
I'm about to pull the trigger and I'm doing my usual check for scams (feedback, location blah blah blah) and what do I see... the guy is right here in my town!!
LOL... save the shipping and I'm gonna shoot for his starting bid price of $50 since now he doesn't have to bother with shipping and paypal/ebay fees!
Going check them out this afternoon. LOL
This is the first deal that I came across on ebay (for this) that I was ready to jump on, small world sometime.
I think I was eyeballing the same ones... no money in my paypal though and I don't mess with credit cards.
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In Louisiana?
Sorry, those are mine. ;)
Didn't get out of the office in time to go look at them this afternoon... will hit them up tomorrow.
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So... I go to this shop today. Meet the guy and he takes me to the back (nice shop with a 12 head and two 6 (maybe 8) head and a 4 head machine plus a javelin, obviously he focuses more on embroidery. Well, when we get to the back he has about 60 newmans setup in the corner.
Hmm... Ok, I'll be taking quite a few... how much? He says $12 each. Ok, let me check the bank account (I had only brought the check book for the account I am trying to drain as we changed the name of the business and they won't let you change the account name at the bank). So I bought 25. After double checking the integrity of the ones I have I'll be buying up the rest!
Anything I should know or look out for with these guys?
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(http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/1599/claply7.gif)
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Only "gotcha" so far is that most don't have the locking strips.
This is seemingly an expensive after market item. Anyone know something I don't here?
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Only "gotcha" so far is that most don't have the locking strips.
This is seemingly an expensive after market item. Anyone know something I don't here?
For awhile before someone gave me a few rolls for free I would use those white packing ties/straps for large items like furnature. Seems silly but they fit and worked just fine. Came across them while looking for moving boxes behind a furnature store.
http://www.brasspack.com/products.asp?dept=175 (http://www.brasspack.com/products.asp?dept=175)
BTW what size are those newmans? Plan on buying all of them? Willing to hook me up with contact info?
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better source
http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-1656/Polyester-Strapping/5-8-x-030-x-1800-Black-Polyester-Strapping (http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-1656/Polyester-Strapping/5-8-x-030-x-1800-Black-Polyester-Strapping)
Might even be the same stuff...
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Your making it difficult giving me all these leads on these strips... but yeah, I was planning on buying the rest of them if they all seemed up to snuff.
:( Sorry... local and at that price? I have to attack it.
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Your making it difficult giving me all these leads on these strips... but yeah, I was planning on buying the rest of them if they all seemed up to snuff.
:( Sorry... local and at that price? I have to attack it.
These look legit! Maybe ask them for a sample. If they are the same... cut them and sell em on ebay as roller frame locking strips and profit!
http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-1243/Polyester-Strapping/1-2-x-028-x-3250-Black-Polyester-Strapping (http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-1243/Polyester-Strapping/1-2-x-028-x-3250-Black-Polyester-Strapping)
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better source
[url]http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-1656/Polyester-Strapping/5-8-x-030-x-1800-Black-Polyester-Strapping[/url] ([url]http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-1656/Polyester-Strapping/5-8-x-030-x-1800-Black-Polyester-Strapping[/url])
Might even be the same stuff...
From my crude fabric tape measurements... I'm getting 7/16's wide by maybe a little over a mm thick (.04 inches). Might be the same as the black stuff (for < 90 count mesh) but might be too thin for "regular" meshes. BUT... I will keep looking, that is for sure! Great prices... hell, I might even get some of the 7/16 stuff and double it up at that price!
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better source
[url]http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-1656/Polyester-Strapping/5-8-x-030-x-1800-Black-Polyester-Strapping[/url] ([url]http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-1656/Polyester-Strapping/5-8-x-030-x-1800-Black-Polyester-Strapping[/url])
Might even be the same stuff...
From my crude fabric tape measurements... I'm getting 7/16's wide by maybe a little over a mm thick (.04 inches). Might be the same as the black stuff (for < 90 count mesh) but might be too thin for "regular" meshes. BUT... I will keep looking, that is for sure! Great prices... hell, I might even get some of the 7/16 stuff and double it up at that price!
I use the same thickness (newman brand strips) not even sure of what I have but I use the same for every mesh count , no issues. It'll just hold the 110's a little more snug. BTW I fixed that link up there you want the 1/2 inch I beleive. If it'll work it'll be more than enough to for all your frames and then some. Kind of odd though the guy doesnt have the strips.
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Can you spot the "newman" mesh clips? I lose these things all the time. "14"
http://www.mcmaster.com/#tool-clips/=evizvv (http://www.mcmaster.com/#tool-clips/=evizvv)
http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/store/799934/product/NAAC (http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/store/799934/product/NAAC)
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He had some... off somewheres else. That was odd. He's pulled all the mesh and pressure washed them. I am not sure he realizes how much they ask for these things from newman. He's getting rid of all his rollers... I'm still not sure the rational. They are smaller mzx's so maybe he likes the larger 23x31 size screens. He's all static aluminum now. He said something about they got a new press... but I'm not sure I buy that. He has a javelin and I didn't pay attention to his manual... workhorse dryer so I'm guessing a workhorse press, but that is 90% guess.
He later said that he had a guy that was stretching them for him and he left and he just never wanted to mess with them anymore. *shrug* maybe just not worth his time anymore in his eyes. It is a large shop for the area. He had 6 or so employees running around back there in the shop and a few in offices. They've been at it since '74.
I'd like to get my calipers and check these... so are you saying that you are using some strapping right now or do you just THINK this should work. I'm with you if it's just thinking because newman isn't having these made specifically for them probably... but if you KNOW then that is GREAT!
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He had some... off somewheres else. That was odd. He's pulled all the mesh and pressure washed them. I am not sure he realizes how much they ask for these things from newman. He's getting rid of all his rollers... I'm still not sure the rational. They are smaller mzx's so maybe he likes the larger 23x31 size screens. He's all static aluminum now. He said something about they got a new press... but I'm not sure I buy that. He has a javelin and I didn't pay attention to his manual... workhorse dryer so I'm guessing a workhorse press, but that is 90% guess.
He later said that he had a guy that was stretching them for him and he left and he just never wanted to mess with them anymore. *shrug* maybe just not worth his time anymore in his eyes. It is a large shop for the area. He had 6 or so employees running around back there in the shop and a few in offices. They've been at it since '74.
I'd like to get my calipers and check these... so are you saying that you are using some strapping right now or do you just THINK this should work. I'm with you if it's just thinking because newman isn't having these made specifically for them probably... but if you KNOW then that is GREAT!
The strapping I found and used for awhile was a cheaper fiber looking version of that above I just came across that today searching for what I used. I bought some frames off someone and he gave me a 4 new boxes of newman strips for free , so eventually I replaced the stapping with the newman stuff.
Many things "screen printing" are other products relabled those newman mesh clips is a perfect example they are really tool clips. Spot guns are cheaper on non screen printing sites as well as laser temp guns. Sometimes its pays to be cheap if you have the time to search.
Roller frames do have an added labor to them but worth it in the long run. I always wanted to buy a stretching table.
How to stretch Newman Roller Frames (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hs1crUAjT-0#)
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Exactly! Lots of repurposed stuff. Which I'm of course perfectly ok with because I don't mind doing the research and finding out what they used. :)
I did this for a fuel management computer interface for a car... they wanted like $130 bucks for the cable to connect this thing to your computers COM port. I found pics of the very basic circuit board online and started looking around. I found a VERY similar circuit for Sega's Dreamcast to make it connect up via "modem" (com port)... it was taking TTL voltages and ramping them up to COM level voltages. They warned though... don't use X version of the chip because that was for 5v, use Y version for 3.3v. Well, I had a 5v source so BOOM! I had the part number.
Sent off for a sample got a few chips and wired it up and first try that sucker worked!
Got creative and sourced some simple circuit boards from radio shack (actually the cheapest way to go)... required cutting one tracer to accommodate my needs. Then I was off to the races... making these puppies and selling them online for $60 bucks... I had $12 bucks tops in it with all packaging. I even put in an activity LED on mine that the original didn't have (there was two channels coming off that chip and I used one to drive the LED in parallel).
I sold a bunch of those little guys... saved people a bunch of money (and made me a bunch as in the process). I took my dremel with a sanding wheel and sanded off the part numbers on the chip on each one. :) Eventually some other guys in china figured it out and started doing them too... but I was tired of doing them by that point. People were still emailing me for a couple of years trying to buy em.
I love me some reverse engineering!
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The strapping I found and used for awhile was a cheaper fiber looking version of that above I just came across that today searching for what I used. I bought some frames off someone and he gave me a 4 new boxes of newman strips for free , so eventually I replaced the stapping with the newman stuff.
Many things "screen printing" are other products relabled those newman mesh clips is a perfect example they are really tool clips. Spot guns are cheaper on non screen printing sites as well as laser temp guns. Sometimes its pays to be cheap if you have the time to search.
Word... I picked up my spot cleaning gun on some amazon site for dirt cheap. Fluid I haven't been able to source for cheap though.
Yeah, those clips are also repurposed in the fishing word as "rod holders" for boats. Even have some of the sleeve based ones further down that page.
So what size of those number 10's will I need. He also didn't have clips that I saw. I'll ask... but who knows. I also was trying to get his meter but he hasn't found it but sent an email to the guy that used to stretch them to see if he knows were he might have put it.
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BTW what size are those newmans? Plan on buying all of them? Willing to hook me up with contact info?
Yo... check this out.
http://www.digitsmith.com/newman-roller-manual-screens-30108.html (http://www.digitsmith.com/newman-roller-manual-screens-30108.html)
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Just a note: the Newman locking strips are chemical resistant. The strapping from Uline might work at first but may not hold up in the long run. It's also much thinner than the Newman strips, which may cause slippage issues with finer mesh.
I've tried several other locking clips ideas, the Newman ones are just right. I don't know where they source them and I don't care. Wasn't worth the time to look.
I keep all my screen stretching tools in a dedicated flat tool box - the kind that go behind a truck seat. Never lost anything, as it all goes RIGHT back in the box when I'm done stretching.
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BTW what size are those newmans? Plan on buying all of them? Willing to hook me up with contact info?
Yo... check this out.
[url]http://www.digitsmith.com/newman-roller-manual-screens-30108.html[/url] ([url]http://www.digitsmith.com/newman-roller-manual-screens-30108.html[/url])
Damnit Kevin, why did you do that? I was hoping to get those before anyone else had a chance to pounce on it.
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Sorry bro... Endless was helping me out and I'm swiping up all the ones local so I felt like I could pay it back.
Maybe he doesn't want the all 4 roller ones? That's probably the ones you would want anyway right?
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Yeah, I'm just messing with you though. As good of a price as that is, we still are being a little tight with our cash right now so I probably wouldn't have pulled the trigger on them regardless. I hate to pass up a deal like that but damn we got so much money left out there right now it's ridiculous. Right now, because we had our best two months ever means we got way more bills and receivables instead of money coming in. Problem is it doesn't come in near as fast as it goes out, folks just don't seem eager to pay up in a timely manner.
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I know how that is.
About a month ago I was staring at 3 checking accounts with less than a grand in each... starting to hit the panic button.
THE VERY NEXT DAY, they were totaling about 10k.
Of course all that money is basically spoken for but that's a spooky time.
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Holding out right now as well. Lots of money tied up in PO's for schools. I back up school orders with cold hard cash , no credit cards here lol. Talk about scary times when the rents are knocking at your door. Buying my time and begging for patience.
Rethinking my anti credit card stance.
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You just have to be SUPER diligent about paying it off every month.
But an even better answer is keeping a large padding in a money market account that you can tap into when times get tough... But ONLY then! Not to buy new gear or anything like that purely your own back up plan vs a cc.
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My wife just sold a $50K job for embroidered bags to a net 45 customer. Most times a job like this comes around it's not a big deal, but right now with so many invoices outstanding (last time I checked it was $90K) it is a little scary. We have to pony up the money within 30 days but we won't get paid for probably 46 days! Almost none of our bigger jobs are paying till they are overdue, it's getting old.
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Do you guys have it setup where they are charged a late fee if overdue? What about incentives to pay early? (that will never happen with big customers though.)
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My wife just sold a $50K job for embroidered bags to a net 45 customer. Most times a job like this comes around it's not a big deal, but right now with so many invoices outstanding (last time I checked it was $90K) it is a little scary. We have to pony up the money within 30 days but we won't get paid for probably 46 days! Almost none of our bigger jobs are paying till they are overdue, it's getting old.
I have invoice that is not paid for over 50 days as of right now.
It is for $1400, not as close to the amount you are talking about....... and they are Net30
BUT...... what is the kicker.......... is that my wife works in their accounting department :)
Damn, I thought that I MIGHT have some connections there
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Stop pissing off your wife. ;)
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Do you guys have it setup where they are charged a late fee if overdue? What about incentives to pay early? (that will never happen with big customers though.)
We are still doing things the old school way, the good ole boy way with handshakes and somebody's word. Too bad that we can't do things that way anymore. We never charge late fees either. We just recently started putting all of our new customers on COD terms and I think we are going to have to change our older customers to a half up front, second half due at completion, delivery or pickup.
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It's really sad that it has to come to that. We are heading the in same direction.
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It's really sad that it has to come to that. We are heading the in same direction.
Agreed, I'm wondering if this country is heading toward another burst bubble on something. I remember how a lot of the industry terms dried up when the recession hit in a hurry and I wonder if even basic Net30 isn't getting close to extinction. Not that I'm one to talk, we're more than a little behind on one of our house accounts due to that nightmare partner/employee situation I posted about awhile ago but that's a one-time incident not how we do biz day to day. In fact, that whole sitch went on as long as it did because our supplier was so used to us paying up on time that they didn't raise a peep about it until it was quite a few months (and quite a few dollars) behind. Might be prudent to get down to brass tacks with any clients that are getting behind and make sure you can still count on that AR early on rather than letting it ride. In my case I would have genuinely appreciated that phone call long before it actually happened. It's also to be noted that many organizations don't have an accountant and it's easy for them to simply not be aware of a bill. Communication never hurts and it's not always 'nagging'.
One thing I didn't see mentioned here is a factoring company. These guys take a small % of your sale but you can essentially extend NET 30 terms to clients via them. They don't owe you, they owe the factorer, or whatever you call that entity, and the factoring co. pays you all/most of the bill up front. Good move for cash flow if you have clients that just absolutely need the month before paying (retailers). Also, if they get behind and feel bitter or something it may not be directed at you.
I've contacted a couple in the state but none have followed through on getting some of our biz yet so I guess I'll look around out of state. I think it would be perfect if you find the need to be a little bit of a hard ass about payment policies. Ours is either half down or payment in full before the order is released (garments ordered basically) and starting last month I had to start cracking down. It would be nice to lay out the policy and give them a second option all while driving home the point that your business is not going to loan toward whatever project it is the shirts are going to but, this other company would be glad to.
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Do you guys have it setup where they are charged a late fee if overdue? What about incentives to pay early? (that will never happen with big customers though.)
We are still doing things the old school way, the good ole boy way with handshakes and somebody's word. Too bad that we can't do things that way anymore. We never charge late fees either. We just recently started putting all of our new customers on COD terms and I think we are going to have to change our older customers to a half up front, second half due at completion, delivery or pickup.
Yeah, I'm in the same boat... mostly because most of my clients are "old" computer clients that I'm pulling in for t-shirt work too, or friends of friends that are on the level, but still leaves me holding the bill for a little longer than I'd like.
On the flip side, I'm VERY guilty of just plain and simple NOT sending an invoice FOREVER! I actually get clients calling me asking when am I going to send an invoice because they WANT to pay me! LOL
Just sent an invoice for $1k that I did about 4 months months ago.
I can also vouch for what Zoo says... granted, I'm not sure I believe some of the excuses but the squeaky wheel... ;) I've had pretty large invoices kind of lingering around over due a little too long and then when I call... "oh, it seemed to have slipped behind someone's desk..." Really? Nearly a BILLION dollar company and my invoice fell betweens some desk?! Seems kind of odd... couldn't be because the project manager was pissed because he kept me on a boat for 3 days and I billed him for all 3 days (not sure what else he expected me to do).
You certainly have to "remind" them sometimes. Another $600 invoice for one of my first shirt orders (the navy hoodies) JUST got paid. I did wait a month to send the invoice but then he forgot he had received it (my father-in-law hand delivered it). I believe him, but that just shows that you need to some times remind them.
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Bringing this topic back on track again.
BOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just bought the rest of that guys newmans!! The wife picked up 40 more!!! So now I have 65 newmans!! No mesh, but he did find some more alignment strips and some other tools that she didn't know what they were but said they weren't the little "clips"... she's watched a few vids with me so she knows what those are. She said they MIGHT be in the box but he through in a few extra things.
I'm stoked! 65 mzx 18x20's square bar frames for $780 ($12 each!)
None have mesh in them... but they are all cleaned and ready to go.
Where is the best deal on mesh and which brand... I've heard lots of good things (mostly from Alan) about he S mesh... what does everyone else say?
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Check the shurloc site for closeouts.
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Yeah, I seen those before... I'll have to visit that again as I forgot about it. Thanks for the reminder!
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I'm not sure how far along you are on yer screen printing journey but I would recommend S mesh above anything else. I couldn't say if I would have preferred to start out with it or not. It does take a little adjusting too and the delicate mesh needs to be handled properly but, especially for manual printing, it's light years past anything else I've tried out. You'll be printing at around 25 n/cm on the average with an off contact that is higher than screens running at higher tensions but I've found that trade off to be almost unanimously worth it. In fact, we just pulled the very last of our high-ten (45n/cm+) Newman Roller Mesh off our screens. It will force you to have a nearly perfect flood and print stroke every time as it excels when you use a light touch and any variance left to right or through the travel of the stroke will be blatantly obvious. By comparison, using mesh at tensions 40 n/cm and above, you use a much lower off-contact (requires a much more calibrated press) far more pressure and you gain some repeatability. The repeatability part could well be negated by the fact that thin thread mesh is far less physically taxing to print over long runs.
Still on the fence myself about panels. I do like the fact that anyone in my shop can drop a panel in and tension it up to spec from our chart and it'll be identical to any other one someone stretched. I don't like that the mesh is not perfectly square to the frame and you don't have control over the corner softening. (note: you can indicate how much softening you want if getting custom made panels but I indicated softening for Murakami's max tensions and it's still way too much and also inconsistent on my panels) On the flip side, stretching from bolt mesh is a skill you need to acquire and standardaize or it will be a nightmare. If you have 65 frames to mesh up you'll be a pro by # 12 or so for sure. Follow the videos and instructions from Stretch Devices and it'll work out just fine. However, I don't recommend their method of cranking a screen "all the way up" immediately. Newman roller mesh can handle this but the rest cannot and you'll likely wind up with a screen that drops tension rapidly and may have aberrations occur on the threads such as "polymer necking where it forms an hourglass shape with a thin middle that will surely break on you. Stick with stage tensioning. Once tensioned, don't settle for whatever the mesh relaxes to, you might as well be using statics if that's your plan. Instead, check tension before and after every run. Make it a rule and not something done "if there's time".
My 2 major pieces of advice are:
- Get a roller master.
- Setup a system that ultimately protects the mesh at every point of contact.
Best of luck.
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I'm waiting on the OK to spend some damn money on mesh and I'll be going 75% S threads and the other 25% will be newman roller mesh. I love the newman 102 so I really want to try a few 166's and the 205s. I need about 40 panels to get our inventory back to full. I've been able to accomplish a ton of "one hit" colors on darker shirts with the 102 so I want to get a few more of those but I'm wondering what I can do with the other mesh counts from newman. I have been so impressed with the 150/48 Murakami S thread mesh and it is so versatile. Underbasing for a spot process or just plain old white print on a black shirt the 150S can do it. With a thicker stencil you can start accomplishing "one hits" like you can with the newman 102's but have a thinner ink deposit than with the 102. Another mesh count from the S thread I've been wanting to try is the 135/48. I can only imagine what I could do with a 100 micron stencil on that sucker for some one hit work. I bet you can print with virtually no pressure on the auto with a real creamy short bodied ink through that 135/48. I've printed with some 150/48's that I had such little pressure on the squeegee cylinders that they wouldn't go up and down without barely making it back to the up position.
So to answer your question, I freaking love the 150/48 Murakami Smartmesh and I have 2 of the 110/78's that I really like as well. They are delicate as you can imagine but as long as you don't have a bunch of go-rillas in your shop they should survive.
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(http://991.com/newGallery/Toni-Basil-Over-My-Head-364858.jpg)
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Remember guys that Gilligan is new to mesh, rollers, stretching, and heck, screens in general. I won't even mention spending money, lol!
Doesn't the S mesh have, along with its advantages, its own set of limitations and learning curve? Isn't it more delicate, along with more expensive? (a former deal breaker in its own right)
With this new huge commitment to rollers, wouldn't he benefit from one of the specialized stretching tables?
And Gilly, I do understand your "thrift" as I also often have to grimace, and strain to cut loose of the cash. My father has all he needs and still won't spend more than a nickel more than he needs to. It has rubbed off on me. In my other life in the Airheads Beemer Club, , I have proudly earned the rank of C.A.B., Cheap Airhead Bastard.
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Yeah, though I've read great things about that S mesh... what I just read from Zoo has kind of scared me away from them for right now.
I am FAR from properly setup so as it stands right now EVERYTHING in my shop is a hazard and I'm the gorilla in the room... I'm cautious but with a messy shop you are bound to do something stupid.
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Oh and Andy... The wife and I stumbled in this business because we thought "hey, let's print our own shirts... it can't be that hard" We went from shopping around at hobby lobby for busted picture frames to mesh (with fabric) to buying all this gear (heat press and cutter) just months later. We originally wanted to do the screen printing stuff first but a need and opportunity to get into the heat press side reared it's head first. Good thing it did because I'd probably have a Silver Press right now!
So besides being cheap we also catapulted ourselves into this business from a passing thought and subsequent google search!
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Gilligan, we use Sefar mesh (Panels) and works well in our shop. It's not as expensive as Newton or S mesh therefor was a good starting point with us until we get over the learning curve. In stating this, Sefar mesh may not be as good but I did not cringe when someone would bust one, mostly due to mishandeling. Now that we are use to handeling our frames and have implemented a better procedure in reclaiming and tensioning, I will step up and begin to experiment with the Higher end meshes.