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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: prokegler on January 10, 2017, 10:23:45 PM
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Hi Experts,
Hope everyone is having a great start to the new year.
I'm in the process of trying to make a decision as to purchase a 6-10 color auto and would like to hear your opinions on which press would be the best to go with.
I've been printing manually for 9 years now on a 6 color 4 station and think I need to make life a little easier and biz a little more efficient and faster.
ROQ, MHM and M&R are the 3 that look the most appealing but money could be a determining factor. While I'm not a high volume shop, I could expand with the additional ease of use and production ability.
I don't want something that is going to be a money pit or a headache to keep running. A friend of mine had a Brown and was nothing but trouble.
Thanks in advance for you expertise and advice.
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What kind of car do you drive and why?
Pierre
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None of the 3 brands you listed are going to be money pits or headaches to keep running. I would suggest talking with each and figure out where each fit in your needs. Each are similar but different. Personally speaking I run a M&R and wouldn't change that. ROQ wasn't in the US market when I purchased and MHM is sold through a distributor that I will never do business with. So if it was me it would be M&R or ROQ. But thats just my personal thoughts.
Getting into an automatic will change your life and good luck in the future!
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Search this topic.
It has been brought up many times, usually runs like 10 pages of replies.... There is also a page that lists what equipment many people use, read that and on the people that are running the equipment you are interested in. Talk to owners, try to avoid ones the sales people tell you to contact, they are not going to give you contact info if a unhappy customer. You have made the first wise choice by feedback from your friend in his machine.
Nearly everyone will give you a different answer, a lot of time for different reasons. My short answer would be - Roq, M&R, MHM.
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I encourage you to add the Workhorse Sabre to your list of contenders.
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We have M&R.. same here Roq really was not available for us either at the time. The customer service has been great when we have needed it! For us that was part of our decision. Don't make a decision on the money, make a decision on what fits your shop the best..
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You won't be disappointed with any three of those choices. M&R has my vote...But that's just me.
Murphy
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The standard reply is going to always be "buy the biggest press you can when it comes to number of heads. AC heads are typically considered superior to air heads. Parts, service and tech availability are massively important. Try to see the press options in person if possibly by visiting shops in your area that use them. Ask as many questions of those owners as possible. Etc..."
Based on everything I have read over the years if I was buying new right now I would look at M&R first, then ROQ, then workhorse and if for whatever reason I was unhappy with those for some reason MAYBE RPM and MHM. M&R is hands down the leader when it comes to service etc and make super solid presses. ROQ is kind of the new kid on the block with probably the best combination of awesome modern tech and add-ons but doesn't have the long history of great customer service yet just by virtue of being so recently available in the states. Workhorse has been around a while and is a solid company and the Sabre is a step in the right direction press wise, but they seem sort of just a little smaller and a little behind the top dogs if that makes sense. I have heard great things about the RPM and MHM presses, but reviews of their service and support seems pretty hugely mixed.
Like I said, just the opinion I've developed over the years reading countless threads on the subject.
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To also repeat what is always said in these threads:
Buy AS many heads as you can fit/afford (and by afford we mean finance, they will pay for themselves!)
I was a longtime manual shop that went auto this summer. Got an 8/10. Will regret not getting a 10/12 before years end for sure.
If buying used - not all brokers are your friend. If buying used, like a car, the best maintained, lowest mile, latest models will cost more coming in the door BUT they'll BE WORTH THE price premium.
Best advice I heard was "you want a press that WORKS and works well! When it is your first press you need to know when the issue you're having is YOU or the press (it's you). When you get an old beat javelin for 5K cause it was cheap, you'll never know if the problem is your understanding of the process or a flaw in the press itself."
Pierre wasn't kidding with his "what brand of car." The brands you mentioned are all good press builders. But the presses (and the BUSINESS that sells each) have different plusses and minuses that are A) Personal and B) determined by what kind of work you do/how you run your shop. No true way around reading all you can here and TALKING to each of the sales people. (and visiting shops in your area that have one or the other).
[i bought a used RPM. they tell me it's a very solid press, but I've never had anything else, so I wouldn't really know. no complaints. just know changing the infrastructure to support an auto takes time and money that needs accounted for - compressor/chiller/air lines. larger screens, squeegees, platens. Larger coaters, screen storage, larger dryer, larger washout booth and dip tank. floodbars.]
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also, biggest word of advice that I received was to talk to owners who have owned multiple presses (preferably multiple brands of presses).
first-time auto owner opinions are pretty much worthless.
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also, biggest word of advice that I received was to talk to owners who have owned multiple presses (preferably multiple brands of presses).
first-time auto owner opinions are pretty much worthless.
I don't know about that statement there, I've only own one auto but I been under around many brands, but I understand it what your saying, but advice can come from everywhere so you can make up your on mind. I will say talking to people that run and work on the press's daily can give you more insight, but this place is a very good start of advice and opinion's ;)
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None of the 3 brands you listed are going to be money pits or headaches to keep running. I would suggest talking with each and figure out where each fit in your needs. Each are similar but different. Personally speaking I run a M&R and wouldn't change that. ROQ wasn't in the US market when I purchased and MHM is sold through a distributor that I will never do business with. So if it was me it would be M&R or ROQ. But thats just my personal thoughts.
Getting into an automatic will change your life and good luck in the future!
These are the responses I would like to hear. Especially the companies that sell the equipment and their business practices. Customer service and support is very important to me.
Thank you for your reply.
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What kind of car do you drive and why?
Pierre
Pierre, not to be rude, but I'm not sure why this comment came off as rude to me. The answer to your question of answering me with a question is, why does it matter what I drive. My point is, I would like to know other printers experiences with their autos because I don't feel like making a 50 - 60k mistake. When I was young and bought used vehicles and did all my own motor work, body work, customization work, it led me to the brand I like best.... Over the years I've owned Ford, Chevy, Porsche, Honda and so on. I'm too old to learn the hard way... That's why I made this post....
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Search this topic.
It has been brought up many times, usually runs like 10 pages of replies.... There is also a page that lists what equipment many people use, read that and on the people that are running the equipment you are interested in. Talk to owners, try to avoid ones the sales people tell you to contact, they are not going to give you contact info if a unhappy customer. You have made the first wise choice by feedback from your friend in his machine.
Nearly everyone will give you a different answer, a lot of time for different reasons. My short answer would be - Roq, M&R, MHM.
Thank you TCT.... Exactly the direction I'm looking for in my venture.
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We have M&R.. same here Roq really was not available for us either at the time. The customer service has been great when we have needed it! For us that was part of our decision. Don't make a decision on the money, make a decision on what fits your shop the best..
Thank you for your response. I know the increase in biz and reliability will take care of the money. This will be an investment for my kids in the future should they so choose to take on my hobby which turned into a biz.
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I encourage you to add the Workhorse Sabre to your list of contenders.
I will look into this at Long Beach if they are on site.
Thank you for the info!!
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The standard reply is going to always be "buy the biggest press you can when it comes to number of heads. AC heads are typically considered superior to air heads. Parts, service and tech availability are massively important. Try to see the press options in person if possibly by visiting shops in your area that use them. Ask as many questions of those owners as possible. Etc..."
Based on everything I have read over the years if I was buying new right now I would look at M&R first, then ROQ, then workhorse and if for whatever reason I was unhappy with those for some reason MAYBE RPM and MHM. M&R is hands down the leader when it comes to service etc and make super solid presses. ROQ is kind of the new kid on the block with probably the best combination of awesome modern tech and add-ons but doesn't have the long history of great customer service yet just by virtue of being so recently available in the states. Workhorse has been around a while and is a solid company and the Sabre is a step in the right direction press wise, but they seem sort of just a little smaller and a little behind the top dogs if that makes sense. I have heard great things about the RPM and MHM presses, but reviews of their service and support seems pretty hugely mixed.
Like I said, just the opinion I've developed over the years reading countless threads on the subject.
Many things to consider. Thank you for your input. All info helps.
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To also repeat what is always said in these threads:
Buy AS many heads as you can fit/afford (and by afford we mean finance, they will pay for themselves!)
I was a longtime manual shop that went auto this summer. Got an 8/10. Will regret not getting a 10/12 before years end for sure.
If buying used - not all brokers are your friend. If buying used, like a car, the best maintained, lowest mile, latest models will cost more coming in the door BUT they'll BE WORTH THE price premium.
Best advice I heard was "you want a press that WORKS and works well! When it is your first press you need to know when the issue you're having is YOU or the press (it's you). When you get an old beat javelin for 5K cause it was cheap, you'll never know if the problem is your understanding of the process or a flaw in the press itself."
Pierre wasn't kidding with his "what brand of car." The brands you mentioned are all good press builders. But the presses (and the BUSINESS that sells each) have different plusses and minuses that are A) Personal and B) determined by what kind of work you do/how you run your shop. No true way around reading all you can here and TALKING to each of the sales people. (and visiting shops in your area that have one or the other).
[i bought a used RPM. they tell me it's a very solid press, but I've never had anything else, so I wouldn't really know. no complaints. just know changing the infrastructure to support an auto takes time and money that needs accounted for - compressor/chiller/air lines. larger screens, squeegees, platens. Larger coaters, screen storage, larger dryer, larger washout booth and dip tank. floodbars.]
Thank you for your input. All info is welcomed for me to be able to make an informed decision. As for Pierre's comments about the type of car, it left me a little confused because to me it was apples to oranges when I asked for input and not a question to my question. We learn from mistakes and I'm retired and don't need to make mistakes at my age. Lol..
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I encourage you to add the Workhorse Sabre to your list of contenders.
I will look into this at Long Beach if they are on site.
Thank you for the info!!
Come see me at the Workhorse booth. Ill be on the cutlass, but we will also have the Sabre, and fellow board member Ace Screen Graphics will be running that one. Come say whats up.
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I would answer your question with a few questions of my own. What quantity are you looking to run? What is your "normal" print? Can you feed the beast? Are you going to be a 1 man shop? But the most important question of all is..... what dryer do you have?
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also, biggest word of advice that I received was to talk to owners who have owned multiple presses (preferably multiple brands of presses).
first-time auto owner opinions are pretty much worthless.
Unfortunately 99 % of the shops in my area are manual and the one local that has auto is probably 20 yr old equipment and don't share info... UGH! Hard to get info from locals as they think (and rightly should) you're out to steal their business, as would I and do.
I was in sales for 28 years in the soda industry and it was cut throat just as most businesses. I'm happy with the replies I'm getting here because most if not all of you are very established and aren't worried about me for the most part. This is a great forum for answers and opinions and I hold them all to a high regard. Thank you for your input.
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also, biggest word of advice that I received was to talk to owners who have owned multiple presses (preferably multiple brands of presses).
first-time auto owner opinions are pretty much worthless.
I don't know about that statement there, I've only own one auto but I been under around many brands, but I understand it what your saying, but advice can come from everywhere so you can make up your on mind. I will say talking to people that run and work on the press's daily can give you more insight, but this place is a very good start of advice and opinion's ;)
Thank you 3Deep... All advice accepted!!
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I would answer your question with a few questions of my own. What quantity are you looking to run? What is your "normal" print? Can you feed the beast? Are you going to be a 1 man shop? But the most important question of all is..... what dryer do you have?
I am a one man gang at the moment because I'm retired and didn't intend on this (9 year garage to small shop hobby) escalating to where I need to hire people (2500 shirts, fronts and backs is no fun manually as most you already know this). I currently work when I want to but am thinking about increasing my biz and putting my son on and pass along to him. Yes, I will need to upgrade my dryer as well. these are all things I'm weighing in this decision. I want quality, efficiency and a great company with great customer service, that's why I'm asking for input on best machines without all the sales pitches. I was in the sales field for 28 years... I've heard most if not all and delivered a few myself... UGH, I feel guilty... :o :o
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Not knowing where you are but there is a great deal on a small gas dryer. 16' x 36" Cincinatti. Mint condition. $7500
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Also There is a used Diamondback 8 color for $12,500 in CA. There is an 8 color MHM E Type for sale in GA
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Also you might like to check out an Anatol press, I might be the only one on here that speaks up for the company but I have had mine for awhile now and they have been great. They have a Volt all electric press which is not my taste but I know it's selling pretty good for them and I will say I like it over the Brown electric press and that's not a knock on Brown maybe just the style of both. Big blue has maybe the best service, but needing no service might be a good thing to, just something to think about, but like I said before great advice can be had here many good people with different opinion's. ;)
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The 3 brands you mention are all good brands. We have an old Gauntlet, and a 10/12 MHM that's 13-14 years old, runs great. But when we had to order a part or two recently, each one took two weeks to get from Austria. I've ordered parts from Europe before, and hand them the next day. So, we probably won't go that way, as much as we love the press, next time. Strictly based on bad service, and I'm not the only one who feels that way. A shame really, because they are great presses...
Steve
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To also repeat what is always said in these threads:
Buy AS many heads as you can fit/afford (and by afford we mean finance, they will pay for themselves!)
I was a longtime manual shop that went auto this summer. Got an 8/10. Will regret not getting a 10/12 before years end for sure.
If buying used - not all brokers are your friend. If buying used, like a car, the best maintained, lowest mile, latest models will cost more coming in the door BUT they'll BE WORTH THE price premium.
Best advice I heard was "you want a press that WORKS and works well! When it is your first press you need to know when the issue you're having is YOU or the press (it's you). When you get an old beat javelin for 5K cause it was cheap, you'll never know if the problem is your understanding of the process or a flaw in the press itself."
Pierre wasn't kidding with his "what brand of car." The brands you mentioned are all good press builders. But the presses (and the BUSINESS that sells each) have different plusses and minuses that are A) Personal and B) determined by what kind of work you do/how you run your shop. No true way around reading all you can here and TALKING to each of the sales people. (and visiting shops in your area that have one or the other).
[i bought a used RPM. they tell me it's a very solid press, but I've never had anything else, so I wouldn't really know. no complaints. just know changing the infrastructure to support an auto takes time and money that needs accounted for - compressor/chiller/air lines. larger screens, squeegees, platens. Larger coaters, screen storage, larger dryer, larger washout booth and dip tank. floodbars.]
Thank you for your input. All info is welcomed for me to be able to make an informed decision. As for Pierre's comments about the type of car, it left me a little confused because to me it was apples to oranges when I asked for input and not a question to my question. We learn from mistakes and I'm retired and don't need to make mistakes at my age. Lol..
as you have probably figured out by now, my question was posted since you did not give us any information about what you are looking for. Presses are like cars, there are Porsches, BMWs, Fords and Yugos out there. Even Yugo was a right choice for a particular market segment.
So, without you explaining what you are trying to do, the easiest decision making tool is to buy a press that matches your taste in cars. Your choices there are a reflection of how you think and personal preferences. Having grown up in Europe (although I was born here) my preferences are for European engineering and thinking. We run two ROQs and an older MHM (which while a nice press, we would not buy again primarily due to service issues with the MHM. Hirsch really was not bad for us, but the main manufacturer did not stand behind a defective product). For somebody who will only buy Ford or Chevy, M&R is probably a better choice.
Next time, if you ask more specific questions and you'll get more specific answers . . .
pierre
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Yep, a lowly Chevy owner here, so I have M&R.
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YUGO (Dad had one for a work vehicle), LMAO
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My CHIIID matches my Bimmer perfectly ;)
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Yep, a lowly Chevy owner here, so I have M&R.
I was gonna say, Toyota owner, and M&R shop. Heck, Dirkdiggler is a Honda and Volvo driver, M&R Shop, and Graphic Disorder has a dam Ferrari, yeah the actual car, & M&R shop. Need a different analogy. More like, find what fits you and your needs. First time automatic owner, may actually have to test the waters, but what ever you do, build a relationship with a company, and then loyalty speaks volumes! I can't see anyone at this time offering a support system like the one M&R has in place. There are enough people here on the forum with plenty of experiences. Find what you feel is best for you, not what someone else, no matter what they run or promote, "think" would be best for you.
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Yep, a lowly Chevy owner here, so I have M&R.
I was gonna say, Toyota owner, and M&R shop. Heck, Dirkdiggler is a Honda and Volvo driver, M&R Shop, and Graphic Disorder has a dam Ferrari, yeah the actual car, & M&R shop. Need a different analogy. More like, find what fits you and your needs. First time automatic owner, may actually have to test the waters, but what ever you do, build a relationship with a company, and then loyalty speaks volumes! I can't see anyone at this time offering a support system like the one M&R has in place. There are enough people here on the forum with plenty of experiences. Find what you feel is best for you, not what someone else, no matter what they run or promote, "think" would be best for you.
This is not a rule, but an approximation for personal affinities. Clearly our tastes can be different between US vs foreign made, especially when you throw service into the mix, but I still believe that if only limited amount of information is given, this approximates a good answer.
Pierre
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going to a few shows will help to, you get to see the press in action, most of the top brands will have a press there.
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If you can make your way to LB next week, they will all be there en masse!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I think Pierre is spot on with his analogy. Toyota and Honda, are foreign cars, but based on there track record, very dependable and have strong sales to back it up. And have great resale value, Just like M&R. Just my 2 cents.
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I think the analogy with car brands and auto presses has been debunked when it comes to actual owners and what they run, but I guess it can still be correct in theory. Toyota and Lexus owner here, RPM and M&R presses. These two machines are so completely different in most of their ways, but in what I consider the main reason why we chose the M&R this time around, it's EXACTLY the same in regards to the printing system. They both use 4 chopper cylinders and a carriage rail and there is no difference in how the machines get the ink from the screen to the shirt. So with all of the differences in how the machines are used by the operator (buttons, switches, etc.) when it comes down to it the most important factor is identical from the M&R to the RPM. So I don't really think there are any analogies that really work here. And I'm a big "analogy type of guy", I use them all the time, mostly in a comedic way but still, I think they are a great way to explain and teach things. But it just doesn't work in this debate.
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I have a 2017 Ferrari 488 GTB, 15 BMW M3, 15 Chevy 2500HD Diesel, and a 13 Dodge Ram. I have a M&R Press.
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Who really cares what anybody drives vs. what press they run? I run a Workhorse and print F**king awesome shirts!
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I think the analogy with car brands and auto presses has been debunked when it comes to actual owners and what they run, but I guess it can still be correct in theory. Toyota and Lexus owner here, RPM and M&R presses. These two machines are so completely different in most of their ways, but in what I consider the main reason why we chose the M&R this time around, it's EXACTLY the same in regards to the printing system. They both use 4 chopper cylinders and a carriage rail and there is no difference in how the machines get the ink from the screen to the shirt. So with all of the differences in how the machines are used by the operator (buttons, switches, etc.) when it comes down to it the most important factor is identical from the M&R to the RPM. So I don't really think there are any analogies that really work here. And I'm a big "analogy type of guy", I use them all the time, mostly in a comedic way but still, I think they are a great way to explain and teach things. But it just doesn't work in this debate.
the point here was that if I have 15 seconds to suggest a press and no other information, it is as good of a barometer as anything else. If more detail is available, than it takes precedence. I would never suggest that somebody should buy an M&R because they drive a Ford if proper data is available.
This makes the I drive this and print on this irrelevant to a degree as those decisions were made on the shop needs, not on a single question without any data. . .
pierre
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What if you drive a Trabant?
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What if you ride the city bus?
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My answer to you would be what are you trying to accomplish with the auto? What size print run would be your average? The greater the number the average run the more choices you have. The lower the number of your average run the fewer choices. Which presses allow for employee turn over with minimum training on set up and operation? What is needed to optimize the output of the press? Do you have a good grasp of the scheduling and pre press for your new auto?
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What if you drive a Trabant?
silver press?
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Don't forget service, support, parts availability, warranty, reputation etc. To me those may be more important than how fast the machine can turn. But that's just my opinion from my shop.
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Don't forget service, support, parts availability, warranty, reputation etc. To me those may be more important than how fast the machine can turn. But that's just my opinion from my shop.
Nope, that's all junk Dave O'. :)
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Don't forget service, support, parts availability, warranty, reputation etc. To me those may be more important than how fast the machine can turn. But that's just my opinion from my shop.
This.