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Direct to Garment => DTG - General => Topic started by: shirtshack on February 13, 2017, 04:52:45 AM
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I have 4 brother machines 2 x gt381 and 2 x 541, and we are now at a level where I believe ink cost is an issue 3-5k per month. I was always lead to believe per print cost on a kornit ( in this case the storm hexa) is a fraction of the price but after research and a visit to the dealer I cannot find any information that can confirm this.
I need the savings in ink cost to cover the lease on a new storm or I would be better off with my brothers.
The Kornit was impressive when it came to print quality, and the in built pre treat is a real time saver but speed was way below the 85 darks per hour listed, on the samples we did I would estimate it's only twice as fast as a 381 which can achieve 20 darks per hour, I calculated the hexa could do 45 prints per hour.
Any body found similar or conflicting views?
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on average 40 darks per hour on Kornit Storm II
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You should read this thread: http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,16601.0.html (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,16601.0.html) it compared an M-Link to a Brother, very detailed. That will at least give you a picture of something else.
I run Epson modified printers and my ink consumption is more on par with the M-Link, slightly more.
I would never get a Kornit. While the inline pretreat seems nice, what if something breaks? You are out of luck printing. I personally like redundancy better. Just wanted to throw that out there.
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I agree with the redundancy factor, for the cost of equipment multiple brother machines can outpace and take up less space than a Kornit, looking in comparison to the m link it would seem brother has the more expensive per print cost so has anyone compared the M link to a Kornit?
I was amazed to find out the kornit does not give the info on how many cc's of ink used in a print on the machine itself, apparently the dealer has to use a separate bit of software and will let me know what my print samples actually cost.
With the brother it's simple, the cc's used show on the machines lcd screen and on the rip file, we calculate the per cc ink cost (around 35p a cc) add 50p for pretreat and get an approx per print cost. The Kornit ink may cost less per cc but it could be using more cc of ink due to its wet on wet print method.
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On the M Link the actual cost per print is displayed after the file is ripped and before pront
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I will pay a visit to Dave roper (uk) and get him to run some samples for me, is the link as cheap as a kornit when it comes to per print cost?
Curing time is also a factor, we originally went with brother 3 years ago due to the 35sec cure using a heat press but nowadays we use a 4 meter Tasoma drylight belt speed set for 3 minutes dwell time, the kornit requires 8 minutes in the dryer.
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I will pay a visit to Dave roper (uk) and get him to run some samples for me, is the link as cheap as a kornit when it comes to per print cost?
Curing time is also a factor, we originally went with brother 3 years ago due to the 35sec cure using a heat press but nowadays we use a 4 meter Tasoma drylight belt speed set for 3 minutes dwell time, the kornit requires 8 minutes in the dryer.
ink cost on a typical white shirt is on average .24 U.S. Black shirt with average white underbase .60. Cure time I can't say for your dryer. Ours is about 5 minutes.
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Quick questions: (And a curing comment)
MLINK - Is there a open API? XML? What file type does the MLINK require for printing?
Curing - The Fire Fly system will cure the MLINK prints in under 3:00 minutes. It will also allow for tri-blends, 50%50% garments. Kornit - 4:00 - 6:00
Brother - 1:45 - 2:45
I think that is all the machines listed in this thread .
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I would seriously look at the MlinkX if I was you.
It will run circles around those 381's in speed and ink savings.
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the kornit requires 8 minutes in the dryer.
We run a Kornit Breeze and a ROQ dryer set to 150 degrees C, and 6 minutes.
Prints with no white underbase go through once, those with white underbase go through twice.
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Quick questions: (And a curing comment)
MLINK - Is there a open API? XML? What file type does the MLINK require for printing?
Curing - The Fire Fly system will cure the MLINK prints in under 3:00 minutes. It will also allow for tri-blends, 50%50% garments. Kornit - 4:00 - 6:00
Brother - 1:45 - 2:45
I think that is all the machines listed in this thread .
Steve, why are you asking for API? Connecting the printer to your dryers?
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Hey,
Yes the connection to the dryers is helpful when handling all the different media types. We also are working with complete production solutions. The MLINK has shown up twice with current clients.
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I was meaning to ask if the Fire Fly is available in the UK and through which dealer. The other issue is Amp draw, most industrial units in the UK are 100amp, I am already going to be taking that to the max with 5 flash units, I can of course get it increased but that would be expensive.
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The Fire Fly technology is very significant in the US market, however it was built for the world market as energy cost and real estate can be as much as 10 times the US market. It also provides a carbon free foot print.
Your power of 100 amps, what is the voltage and phase?
Also how many DTG printers are you tying to support. What type of printer? The other post of the shiny objects refers to the same concept. If you can limit not the use of a heat press you limit the shiny effects your are experiencing.
Thanks
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410v 3 phase, doubt it would like 240v single phase.
At the moment 4 brother machines, but looking to either add the new brother when released, maybe the m link or possibly the Kornit storm hexa, probably in total 20 to 60 prints per hour mostly darks.
Your last comment looks like you suggest not using a heat press for pretreat, but brother States in the brother cook book not to use a coveor dryer for pretreat, something to do with the heat from the press allowing the pretreat to raise to the surface of the shirt rather than drying it within the fibres.
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Quick thoughts (sorry for the length:not quick)
Pre-treat related:
Several (a lot) of high volume shops send pre treat through a dryer for volume reasons. How it applies
Standard dryer:
Send it through at 2 minutes or so, be sure not to burn the light shirts but will no remove all pre treat from heavier garments.
Press:
10-20 seconds
Makes sure that all garments are complete dry and fibers are laid down.
Pros:
Simple plan that is effective on 100% garments. The fibers are laid down nicely and allow for a good printing surface.
Cons:
The 20 second press is cumbersome. Trim blends, 5050's and light colors tend to leave a unwanted box. Polyesters are even more difficult (rumor is a good poly ink exists!!!)
Fire Fly
Send garment through for 60-75 seconds
Press for 3-5 seconds
Pros:
Simple plan that is effective on all garments. It represents a complete production solution where all shirts are completely dry and ready for production. Fibers are laid down on most fabrics. Process and look are identical. All boxes disappear and triblends, 5050 garments can be run on all platforms.
Cons:
You would have to trust me! And for select items; fiberous products (ps. Fiberous, Fibulation and several other forms are not real words) will not look as good as a completely pressed shirt.
Side note:
How to replicate the above results (not production friendly):
Press for 3 seconds and hover the transfer press for 5 seconds until completely dry (same concept) likely 8 - 10 times.
Let me know if this helps! Thanks
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Another thing we noticed with the kornit is that the finished dried print had a better feel than our brother prints, not so much the hand but brother prints always tend to feel tacky when using a large amount of white, they also tend to crack when stretched which was not the case with the kornit.
I came across a post that talked about ink wastage with the kornit, 30% of ink purchased seems to end up in the waste tank, if true that would definitely be a concern. Maybe the new hexa version of the storm has improved this.
I have also been lead to believe that the pretreat is also considerably cheaper being 10 cent rather than 50 cent a shirt.
The mlink does sound like a good contender with lower ink cost and less wastage than the brother, I will get some samples done at m&r uk to see how they come out.
I wonder if the same DuPont ink would work with the brother, and if there is a way to switch it to bulk feed, they are out of warranty so no issue there. I would probably only need to switch out the white ink if bother cmyk will still bond.
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Just confirmed that the storm 1000 and storm hexa have the ink recirculating system which is supposed to dramatically reduce ink wastage, ( sales speak or real world fact?) judging by the claim of 85 prints per hour against our testing of 40 prints per hour with the dealer, I have to assume Kornit likes to exaggerate.
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Just confirmed that the storm 1000 and storm hexa have the ink recirculating system which is supposed to dramatically reduce ink wastage, ( sales speak or real world fact?) judging by the claim of 85 prints per hour against our testing of 40 prints per hour with the dealer, I have to assume Kornit likes to exaggerate.
Do yourself a big favor and see Roper for a test ride with the M-Link X. I strongly suggest you do NOT put our ink through the Brother.
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Probably right Rich, no bulk feeds available for the Brother anyway..
Spoke with Dave and will take a look at the print wear show next weekend hes only got the M-link not the M-link X, will probably make a visit to the showroom to do some testing of my own designs..
I am also going to re visit with Kornit and run some further tests on production speeds as maybe my calculation of 40 prints per hour on the storm hexa may have been off but would also like to know how they come up with a number of 85 p/h.
I figure a few different designs but all similar in size run as many as I can for 15 to 30 minutes and I can work out an average hourly rate.
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Probably right Rich, no bulk feeds available for the Brother anyway..
Spoke with Dave and will take a look at the print wear show next weekend hes only got the M-link not the M-link X, will probably make a visit to the showroom to do some testing of my own designs..
I am also going to re visit with Kornit and run some further tests on production speeds as maybe my calculation of 40 prints per hour on the storm hexa may have been off but would also like to know how they come up with a number of 85 p/h.
I figure a few different designs but all similar in size run as many as I can for 15 to 30 minutes and I can work out an average hourly rate.
Would love to see or possibly have a couple of shirts from these runs.