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screen printing => General Screen Printing => Topic started by: Gilligan on November 09, 2011, 04:42:15 PM
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Some guys (friends) want me to print up a shirt for their disc golf tournament and I agreed.
Shot them some prices based on one color front and back.
They send me a 5 color front. I clear up the miscommunication (between their members) and they send me a grey scale version of the same art work.
So... it's at least 5 different tones. I'm doubting this will work as just straight halftones but I'm willing to try. I'll mock something up and send them a digital "sample" so they can understand what will be done. But so far I'm not very happy with the results.
Am I just trying to do too much and will I end up with a bigger mess come production time by trying to do this?
Here is the greyscale "original".
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Are you looking for feedback as to how to adjust the art so that it prints better/easier? Do you want someone to adjust it for you?
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I would explain to the customer what a 1/2 tone is, many times they'll just want the outline printed. 1/2 tones are a bit ugly as a 1 color print if it's not a photo.
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This is an example of opening up the tones to that it prints a little easier. If you need me to do it, send it on over. no charge.
I'd make sure the darkest (halftone) was no darker than 60-65%. I don't even like to go darker than 60 when printing on a manual press. I'd also make sure that the turkey bill was at 10% so you do not lose those dots.
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ooh ooh, I can see the wheels turning and the next round of questions about RIPs and outputting halftones in the works already.
Ghostscript anyone?
Old Gilly will keep these boards (and himself) busy! ;D
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i thought Dan was going to make a tut on tricks for the industry
if a remember correctly
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What color shirts will this print on? Printing as black in will be fine as long as you use a really high mesh frame and as small a halftone as you can handle.
I would print as a one color black ink using a 55-60 LPI, elliptical dot, 25° 305 or 355 yellow mesh.
I would also suggest using either 100% true four color process black ink or a mixture, 50/50 of regular plasticol black and true four color process black inks.
The four color process ink will help with holding your halftones better than regular platicols. The mixture, 50/50 helps with opacity that you generally loose with 4 color process inks yets retains the awesome quality and halftones 4 color process inks have/yield.
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I am with Fluid that will print perfectly fine as a gray scale one color black especially the advise about the 4cp black. I almost exclusively use 4cp black except for athletic black on team stuff. The 4cp black is much nicer to print, clears the screen well and holds detail.
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@Dan... That is of course very sound advice. I'd like to attempt to do this myself but if push comes to shove I'll gladly take your VERY generous offer. Oh, I'll be printing this on a manual.
@Frog... I've been reading about all this stuff already, going through archives of you talking about ghostrip already. :p I'm looking for all angles here.
@Fluid and Inkman and really, anyone else...
Would I NEED process ink? I only ask because I don't have any and I do have a gallon of regular UnionInk UltraSoft black that will take me forever to use at my rate. :) I have some curable reducer from that last job... would that help achieve a similar thing? What ratio? It's Union Soft 9000g or whatever.
Would I be better served by maybe just throwing in a second screen (for free) with some "homemade" grey vs buying more ink? It's only an 80 piece job so it wouldn't be much trouble.
Oh, and the shirts will be white... they are trying to keep cost down.
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@Dan... That is of course very sound advice. I'd like to attempt to do this myself but if push comes to shove I'll gladly take your VERY generous offer. Oh, I'll be printing this on a manual.
@Frog... I've been reading about all this stuff already, going through archives of you talking about ghostrip already. :p I'm looking for all angles here.
@Fluid and Inkman and really, anyone else...
Would I NEED process ink? I only ask because I don't have any and I do have a gallon of regular UnionInk UltraSoft black that will take me forever to use at my rate. :) I have some curable reducer from that last job... would that help achieve a similar thing? What ratio? It's Union Soft 9000g or whatever.
Would I be better served by maybe just throwing in a second screen (for free) with some "homemade" grey vs buying more ink? It's only an 80 piece job so it wouldn't be much trouble.
Oh, and the shirts will be white... they are trying to keep cost down.
your first question should be, "can I print halftones?" If you can not all of this is a moot point. Halftones require a decent film/exposure/screen setup that you might not have gotten around to yet. Try to print some halftone films and burn a screen of to with a a mix of halftone percentages just to make sure this is something you can tackle. If all works out there, than the actual print will not be that hard and we can throw some suggestions your way to make your life easier. But . . . try the half tones first!
pierre
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No, I actually prefer not to use process black.
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Good point Blue...
My films look good (to me) but without a lot to compare to it's hard to say. I've done the exposure test http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php?topic=1748.msg19876#msg19876 (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php?topic=1748.msg19876#msg19876) Not sure how that compares to doing halftones.
BUT you bring up a good point that I forgot to mention in the other post. As of right now the highest mesh I have is 200. This job will need to be done before the 26th obviously (if you read the artwork)... so I'm not sure I'll be in a position to change that variable.
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So, fire up the 'puter (as if it's ever off, lol!) in Illy or Draw, or whatever you use, make yourself a series of 2"squares, and fill them with 5%. 10%. 15%. etc halftones.
Set up your Ghostscript, and output a film.
With a 200, I'd go with 40lpi at 22.5 or 25 degrees. Most seem to prefer an eliptical shape dot.
I am always intrigued and amazed at how quickly newbies seem to jump almost immediately from simple one color black prints to more demanding challenges like opaque inks, multicolor wet on wet, and, you guessed it, halftones, both pre-press, and printing.
All challenges that one will eventually overcome, but perhaps should not be automatically accepted as paying jobs (even with friends) until mastered.
There is a certain process that all successful printers and perhaps all business people learn, and it's the art of "no"'.
Learn when to turn down a job.
I'm not saying that you can't do this, but as has been pointed out, you have a series of procedures and processes to master before you can do it well.
You do have the time to accomplish this, but I suggest, that unless you lowballed ridiculously on the job, that you have a plan B, of sending it out to a helpful, experienced member who takes this size contract job.
Knowing his or her guidelines, timeframes, and setting this up as an alternative will greatly reduce any stress, and allow you to know that your friends will receive the job on time.
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No, I actually prefer not to use process black.
Why?
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1. It eats squeegees.
2. There is less opacity in process inks
3. They feel crisp on the shirt with any decent amount of coverage.
4. I hate the way it turns to liquid in the screen.
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Thanks Andy... I agree with you... I do have the option though he's dropped a lot of halftones from my art before in the past without my approval... it was mission critical but it makes me worry about this type of thing.
Anyway... I actually haven't said yes to this job quite yet. I quoted him a one color job and he sent me 5 color artwork and we've been trying to figure out something since. I thought he was going to send me some different artwork but he just sent me the straight greyscale version of the same 5 color job. I said I would see what I could do... but I haven't said "yes" exactly yet.
Are you suggesting that I just do a line art version of it? I'm not opposed to offering that to them... or maybe mixing it a little bit of halftones to add a "little" dimension to the print as well as getting my feet a "little" wet here. :)
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1. It eats squeegees.
2. There is less opacity in process inks
3. They feel crisp on the shirt with any decent amount of coverage.
4. I hate the way it turns to liquid in the screen.
and to add, the process inks are not very compatible with SBQ/photopolymer emulsions.
we use a unimatch black for all our prints. It is designed for sim process printing so it blends well and goes through the 305's and 330's just fine, but unlike the 4CP black, it is actually black (rather than the dark gray). It has a soft hand feel too. After trying few different blacks, this is the only one we stock. . .
pierre
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Gilligan, you can print this on a 200 mesh screen, but you'll need a sharp edge squeege maybe an 80 duro and only do one firm print stroke without flooding that will stop your dot gain and keep the print crisp and clean. I like my ink a little thicker sometimes when doing halftone work on lower mesh counts like QCM wow inks or just straight out the can without stiring it up...trial and error and you'll be fine, all the advice these guys are giving you are dead on, so keep all that in mine on your next project.
Darryl
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If you can not all of this is a mot point.
You know that is really spelt moot.
Aaaaaawe, Pierre, shame shame. :-[ Frog is gonna get you!
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No Dan that would be if he used "mute" because I know that he should know better, being a product of you're-a-peein' education.
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Thanks Andy... I agree with you... I do have the option though he's dropped a lot of halftones from my art before in the past without my approval... it was mission critical but it makes me worry about this type of thing.
You are not limited to merely another printer who can't print halftones either. lol!
Are you suggesting that I just do a line art version of it? I'm not opposed to offering that to them... or maybe mixing it a little bit of halftones to add a "little" dimension to the print as well as getting my feet a "little" wet here. :)
My suggestion was to merely see if it is practical. To see if you can, indeed, learn and output and burn, and print halftones in the time allotted. If a straight line version is offered up as an alternative, great, but as you see here, grayscale versions can look pretty nice.
For that matter, someone else here could probably do a pretty nice job with the original five color version.
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or maybe mixing it a little bit of halftones to add a "little" dimension to the print as well as getting my feet a "little" wet here. :)
there is no such thing as little bit of half tone. If you can print any half tones, you can print the whole enchilada! My suggestion is print the test pattern Frog suggested and see what comes out. It might be easier if you start with a really big dot and work your way to something smaller. Try 20 lpi to start and then move to 35 and then 45.
pierre
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If you can not all of this is a mot point.
You know that is really spelt moot.
Aaaaaawe, Pierre, shame shame. :-[ Frog is gonna get you!
actually, I don't know what you are talking about! ;) All is spelled correctly!
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Andy... I'm not so sure that he CAN'T print them as much as it is that something is lost in translation some how. He's done some really nice sim-process work including some nice grey scale stuff.
I think I could do a decent job with the 5 color version... It's just not in their budget.
Pierre... Well, didn't you just kind of say the same thing? You said "start off with really big dots and work your way to something smaller"... that's basically what I'm suggesting too. I get rid of trying to do 5 levels of half tones that could easily get screwed up if my print stroke isn't proper (and I'm fairly sure that it isn't). So dot gain will get all screwed up. If I keep it fairly simple then it won't be so bad. So I start off with just a little bit of "simple" half tone work in the image and work my way to more complicated stuff as time allows.
Here is a sample (VERY crude) of what I could maybe offer them as an alternative.
What do you think? Do we lose it all... should I stick to the original? I don't think they are tied to the grey scale... honestly they did that grey scale in WORD... they are not artist... they are struggling to get me art work is what they are. :) Very well intentioned guys that are just trying to do what they can with what limited resources they have available.
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Andy... I'm not so sure that he CAN'T print them as much as it is that something is lost in translation some how. He's done some really nice sim-process work including some nice grey scale stuff.
I think I could do a decent job with the 5 color version... It's just not in their budget.
Pierre... Well, didn't you just kind of say the same thing? You said "start off with really big dots and work your way to something smaller"... that's basically what I'm suggesting too. I get rid of trying to do 5 levels of half tones that could easily get screwed up if my print stroke isn't proper (and I'm fairly sure that it isn't). So dot gain will get all screwed up. If I keep it fairly simple then it won't be so bad. So I start off with just a little bit of "simple" half tone work in the image and work my way to more complicated stuff as time allows.
Here is a sample (VERY crude) of what I could maybe offer them as an alternative.
What do you think? Do we lose it all... should I stick to the original? I don't think they are tied to the grey scale... honestly they did that grey scale in WORD... they are not artist... they are struggling to get me art work is what they are. :) Very well intentioned guys that are just trying to do what they can with what limited resources they have available.
I'd say print some 25 lpi halftones and get back to us with the results! That will eliminate many of the choices and make it easier to figure out what's next.
pierre
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Pierre... Well, didn't you just kind of say the same thing? You said "start off with really big dots and work your way to something smaller"...
No, I saw it as what he was saying was "maybe Gilligan can't hold a 45 lpi frequency, and should start with something coarser with his test squares"
These test squares will demonstrate what you can hold on your screen, and what dot gain you will experience. You probably will find the 15% - 70% range your comfort zone, realizing that it may well print closer to 25 - 80 or 85%
And yes, this may cost you a screen or two, lol!
btw, I recommend using the 5/1 ratio of frequency to mesh, to further reduce moire risk. That's why I suggested 40 lpi.
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But essentially we were sort of saying the same thing.
My issue is my technique is weak... so I might have to take a second pass at laying down ink... I'm REAL shaky with if I feel like I'm putting enough ink down even black/red on white (like that other job I showed with the ink creep). So this will exacerbate my dot gain and make things get "darker" than they are meant if I try to get "too creative" with the half tone shades. Right?
So what kind of coating (3:1, 2:1?) of emulsion should I do on these 200 mesh screens to get the right EOM for these half tone dots?
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The bottom line is if you make the test squares I suggested, and expose and develop and print a screen as you normally do (even if it's three strokes), you will determine three things;
1.what line frequencies you can successfully shoot and develop on a screen.
2. what percentages (especially how low) you can hold
3. how much dot gain do you get from your particular style and technique? (and subsequent compensation required)
This job and subsequent discussion has shown you what is needed at some point, no matter how you choose to handle this particular project
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So what kind of coating (3:1, 2:1?) of emulsion should I do on these 200 mesh screens to get the right EOM for these half tone dots?
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I would do 1/1, but thats me...I know my emulsion and how it coats.
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So what kind of coating (3:1, 2:1?) of emulsion should I do on these 200 mesh screens to get the right EOM for these half tone dots?
Except for specific heavy deposits, I coat (and expose) all screens similarly. Shooting for the glisten method you already know.
You may remember that that article even shows examples of dots being better defined with proper (greater) EOM than skimpy methods. That's one of its benefits.
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I would do 1/1, but thats me...I know my emulsion and how it coats.
Is that how you normally coat even for spot color work?
Just wondering because many people think very highly of the glisten method. But I have heard discussions of dot gain and such due to stencil thickness. I don't want to go TOO heavy if there is a potential issue with that. I would think it would be better to err a hair thin than thick. But I could be completely off.
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What's the issue? You learn your dot gain and compensate either manually in the art creation or upon output.
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Well, to be perfectly honest... I don't even REALLY know what "dot gain" is.
This is where I wish we had a terminology glossary (I know you linked to one, but I hate opening up more and more pages.... odd that I say that considering I literally have about 80 tabs open right now... but that's my point).
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It depends on what I,m printing that day if its halftone on a 230 mesh I coat 1/1 with the round edge of the coater, 4cp I do 1/1 with the sharp edge. Most stuff I coat the print side 2 the squeegee side 1 with the sharp edge of the coater. I will say I don't fellow all the rules that most printers live by, if it works and I get a nice looking print I repeat it on jobs of the same nature.
Darryl
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Well, to be perfectly honest... I don't even REALLY know what "dot gain" is.
Dot gain is when you print and the halftone dots expand. You want to try to control this from happening too much.
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That is what I ASSumed it was, but I didn't want to get too far a head of myself and off running in the wrong direction.
How does one minimize or "learn" this effect? As I've had experience with ink build up I would think this could get ugly in that sense pretty easily.
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I would do 1/1, but thats me...I know my emulsion and how it coats.
Is that how you normally coat even for spot color work?
Just wondering because many people think very highly of the glisten method. But I have heard discussions of dot gain and such due to stencil thickness. I don't want to go TOO heavy if there is a potential issue with that. I would think it would be better to err a hair thin than thick. But I could be completely off.
you should be shooting for 8-12% EOM on the sim and 4CP jobs and around 20% on the spot colors. all of this is pretty much useless to you (me too as I am not at that level yet either) at this point in time as you still need to print the test patterns.
as Frog pointed out, coat all your screens the same now so you have consistency and can set your reference points. Then once you know what is going on you can go and evaluate the results if you make some changes. Without having a baseline it will be very difficult to figure out what is going on. . .
Now, go burn the patterns and let us know what you got!
pierre
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You control in the art, the mesh selection, the squeegee selection, the ink OMG i could go on forever! No seriously if you do as Andy said print some halftones as you normally would always print and judge how much your dot gain is. I can tell you already if you are always double hitting black then you want to lower your black percentages to account for that. For instance instead of a 70% black go 50%. A 70% black double hit will almost completely fill in.
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That is what I ASSumed it was, but I didn't want to get too far a head of myself and off running in the wrong direction.
How does one minimize or "learn" this effect? As I've had experience with ink build up I would think this could get ugly in that sense pretty easily.
How to stop dot gain opens up a hold book of answers, but to give you something quick manual printing #1 squeegee angle #2 print pressure #3 print strokes #4 mesh count #5 inks #6 shirt weave (maybe not so much ), but you can see where I,m going with this.
Darryl
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I mostly print pretty simple spot color jobs, sometimes half-toned, usually not. I generally print with 180's and 200's dark on light. With my halftone screens, I often move up to 230's and 260's, all coated to the same glisten method, but obviously with the relatively thinner coating on the finer meshes. (but still with similar EOM percentages.) The higher meshes allow for smaller dots, but over the years I did fine with 160's for many "shaded" halftone designs.
I tend to experience a 10-15% dot gain, and usually compensate in my artwork in CorelDRAW, and output with Ghost. I know that many use a setting in Photoshop to knock back all percentages together at their desired dot-gain, probably something similar in PAINT. I don't know about Illy, and if I'm missing something in DRAW.
As I said, do what I suggested, and see what your dot gain is by comparing samples.
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Cool... that answers a good bit.
I do plan on doing these things... I'm just at my computer shop fixing computers right now so I can't run these test... but I can get as much knowledge info leading up to that point as I can.
Measure twice cut once right?
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Measure twice cut once right?
actually, the tests are the measuring part!
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Sure but I have to measure for the test also.
You don't just go out with a tape measure and saw and assume you will make a table. You have to have a plan first.
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Got here late, but adjust your art like Dan did.
( this what I would do anyways.. )
If the actual file you have is all low res and anti-aliased, punch out the tones to a proper solid lineart,
you can use curves or levels or what have-you to do this, clean it up,
then add the tones back in. It'll be nice and clean.
You mentioned lower mesh count.
I get away with 40lpi on 150ish mesh all the time, but I use a good exposure unit and I've been at this for awhile.
You have 200 mesh, it should be a piece of cake.
40lpi is a larger dot, and this is one color, so make em round, as opposed to elliptical.
I like 22.5 for an angle, 25 works as well.
Keep your tones between 10 and 70% ( or less if you're worried about press gain ), and giver.
This shirt's kinda old, dirty and such.
Excuse the jpegs, but you should get the idea.
One screen, one stroke, regular old black plastisol.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/AWOL/1-2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/AWOL/2-1.jpg)
( printing goofy images helps immensely )
Hope that helps.
Cheers.
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That's nice... and inspiring!
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Feel inspired to go get some tequilla?
Just kidding.
Lots of folks I've met on the internet had a great amount of knowledge of this trade
long before I even attempted to find it's secrets on my own.
Always been an art-guy to some degree, but not production-knowledge guy.
I figured most of it out on my own, but once you reach a point, you want to ask questions.
And, I got some answers..which raised even more questions, haha.
It's all good though.
This group is great. Lots of good people.
I'm just throwin' .02 into the fray, hopefully I can pay something back.
Cheers.
:)
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I just started playing with halftones, I will be testing out my stuff with this, maybe other corel users can use it or the pro's can let me know if it is junk and I should do it another way.
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You did the 'rip' in photopaint, yes?
Your dots won't be as clean as photoshop if you do it the manual way.
( adobe has a better algorithm for that, unfortunately )
But,
Something still doesn't quite look right, 'cept, I'm kinda done thinkin' for the day.
I'll have another look later.
You're on the right track.
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Sweetts, I don't really know how much you will get from the rough dots on that test sheet. I guess that they were made with a bitmap workaround.
What I suggested was making these squares but outputting them through CorelDRAW and your usual RIP (or Postscript printer for those still hanging on to that technology)
Clean dots in whatever line frequency your mesh dictates (or vice versa) Rule of thumb is mesh at at least 4.5 times the line frequency. The wider the ration, along with a neutral angle like 22.5 or 25, the less likely moire interference patterns will rear their ugly heads.
Chadwick suggests round when 40 or larger, many use elliptical.
A sheet like this, will print at the default line frequency (almost invisible small dots) unless you go into your graphics program, and it detects a post script output device, and allows you to use advanced settings to alter it.
I assume that this is also set in some RIPs.
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Is there a way I can attach a file?
Hosting images is easy, but I'd like to attach a PDF.
And I'd rather avoid a megaupload link or some cr*p like that.
( don't have any online space atm )
Perhaps I've overlooked something obvious.
Perhaps, I should just say f' it and go get a beer.
I think, perhaps, I'll go do just that.
Let me know.
Thanks.
Cheers.
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Is there a way I can attach a file?
Hosting images is easy, but I'd like to attach a PDF.
And I'd rather avoid a megaupload link or some cr*p like that.
( don't have any online space atm )
Perhaps I've overlooked something obvious.
Perhaps, I should just say f' it and go get a beer.
I think, perhaps, I'll go do just that.
Let me know.
Thanks.
Cheers.
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Wow, that beer must've been a long ways away huh?
Thanks Andy ( I must be blind, haha ).
Let's see if this works.
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:)
Hey look at that.
Import it into Draw or Illy or whatever and have a look.
If you import it into photoshop, make sure the import is 720dpi, as that's the largest res bitmap contained within.
Print it out, you'll see.
* never do this stuff after a long week.
It looks like my 5% may actually be around 2%...f*ck it, I ain't goin' back in to fix it now.
Besides, below 10% is generally no-sane-man's land anyways, haha.
Cheers.
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Wow... that's pretty cool Chadwick!
http://tinyurl.com/6mtgp7n (http://tinyurl.com/6mtgp7n)
That is the test print on a shirt.
I used that based down navy to test... 10% curable reducer in that ink.
Printed once then again. Then I printed that back that you see there with one stroke. Then I printed another two stroke to see dot gain effects and such.
Interesting.
So... If I follow Dan's suggestion what should I be shooting for in my "spectrum"?
(http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2024.0;attach=1673;image)
100% = black (obviously)
Tail (originally Drk Brown) =
Body (originally Lt Brown) =
Wattle (originally Red) =
Beak/Feet (originally Yellow) =
I'm a bit more confident in trying this bad boy out... at least as a test print. Blanks are coming in Monday or (mostly likely) Tuesday.
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Contrast is king.
Bling is queen.
You're working with bare minimum.
Use all of what you can.
If you haven't printed yet, for God's sake man, fix that f'n text.
( sorry all, but that's gotta be said. hahaha )
Use regular old unmodified plastisol before you get into ink guru stuff.
USE THE SCHWARTZ!
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That's just the art work they sent over. I will be "redoing" it and fixing it to make it right.
These guys are great guys but they aren't artist. ;)
Oh, and I used the based down Navy because it was sitting around in a container near press from a previous job (retro faded look). Figured it being based down my be good for going through the half-tones. Plus, I'll likely not use it for anything else so why not use it for test prints like this. :)