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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: TL on September 21, 2017, 12:43:20 PM
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Hey All, I'm looking for some honest feedback from any printers that run Roq automatics and pretty much print only plastisol(if they even exist). I'm looking for info like how does a white base coat lay down-does it lay down with 1 stroke or does it need a double stroke most of the time? How does it handle low bleed polyester inks? Or any other info that people want to share.
We just starting to consider adding a second automatic, we currently have an M&R Diamondback. I know that these machines are not comparable, I am just trying to review all my options as our shop grows.
Thanks in advance for any help.
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we own two diamondbacks and I'm my opinion, the press has very little to do with how it lays down inks. more so quality of screens, inks and what garments you are printing on. i don't know everything about screen printing, but 9.9 times out of 10 if I'm having trouble with an ink laying down, its not the press' problem.
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Like Celeve I don't run a Roq, but your question really has nothing to do with the press, but more of what your setup is ie screen mesh count's, squeegee duro, speed of print, emulsion coverage etc. IMHO the difference in auto press's is really the builder and bell's and whistles each have to help make your work flow easier and faster...oh and Service after the sell, laying down ink is up to you ;)
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We have had our Roq for about a year and half. Like the others have said, it has alot more to do with screens, emulsion, ink, etc. When those things are right we can single stroke everything with no problem. I love the press and would buy another one in a second. With that being said, if you already have a diamondback, I would look at a Sportsman or G3. Having multiple machines that are compatible with pallets, registration systems, and those things would be more important to me.
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I think, no, I know there are differences with print heads and their designs that will affect how well they shear ink from the mesh. What others have said is absolutely true, you can do things with your mesh counts, squeegee blades, etc that will help a weak print head design print tougher inks with less effort, but a bad design can, and will hinder your production at some point. If you can limit those instances or are willing to put up with them then don't let it play a role in your decision. We ran the RPM for 7 years and it's design is solid so we never had any issues with printing tough inks with one stroke. Now with the G3, it's even stronger and I've printed white ink with 15-17 psi on many occasions and I know for a fact that not many autos can do that. We can also print white ink at 40"/sec with one stroke (we use higher pressures when doing that) and I also know for a fact that not all autos can do that. I haven't spent a lot of time in front of machines that use different print head designs than the traditional 4 chopper cylinder versions the RPM and M&R use. I know quite a few guys that have, and a few of those guys I trust more than I trust myself, hence my strong opinions on the subject. My opinion does have some conjecture, but very little.
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I think this dates back a few years when they were at a show and double stroking the white base. I can't place my finger on when or even if it was posted here, but I remember it was a big deal for some who like to bash any brand they didn't buy as proof they were junk.
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Platen deflection (or, more importantly lack thereof) is often an overlooked variable
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I know if I were to simply say "Brand X has a weak print carriage design and you have to double stroke 50% more times than Brand Y" people would lose their minds. But to say that some print heads are weaker than others is NOT CONJECTURE AT ALL. But no manufacturer would ever build a machine that wasn't capable of printing the basic plastisol inks in at least 2 strokes so I think the bar is high enough. I think if I were to walk into a shop with a different brand of machinery than what I run every day I could eventually find a way to print to my standards. But I will say that there are guys in this industry that have forgotten more than I'll ever know that can't get some brands to print a white ink with one stroke to save their lives, so there is something to be said about it.
Our shop is different, and if I had to double stroke everything that had a white underbase I'd lose my mind, but others don't care about the same things I care about and all of the other features of a press are more important than what I deem important. And another thing that has come up since we bought our G3, on many occasions I've tried to double stroke an underbase to compare to a single, only to find that a single stroke provides the same, and at times more opacity than the double. Don't ask me how that is possible, but I've seen enough times in 2017 to know it's real. And let's get something straight, there are very few humans on earth that would get on this forum after having paid over six figures for a press that would EVER bring to light a big negative aspect about the machine, so there's that to consider. And I happen to think the issue in question here is a pretty big one so getting the absolute truth on this forum is probably not going to happen. Then there are guys that will lie to you about what they ate for breakfast so you can forget about getting an objective truth about expensive machinery from those guys.
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Platen deflection (or, more importantly lack thereof) is often an overlooked variable
I hate platen deflection with a burning passion.
I see this everyday with my 12 color (converted 10 color with shorter arms than a 12) Vs my 14 color. I have to use 15-25 lbs more pressure on my 14 than my 12 to get the same ink clear.
I can also watch the pressure change/ink clear on looong print strokes... About 6 inches down the print the arm gets stiffer and everything clears better.
Major sore point....
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I honestly think any press should be able to clear white ink with one stroke. I'm using an all air press with the old v-squeegee and I have yet to double stroke anything. 135 through 180 s-thread screens should clear easily. I use minimal off contact which helps as well.
I definitely have a less than perfect setup and I have no clue if my calibration ability is up to par, but for now it's working okay and good screens definitely help.
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We don't do a ton of double stroking, but the nice thing about the CH3D is the print heads are so fast that you can run them fast as you desire without slowing down the job.
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True.....especially if you're flashing on many newer presses a double stroke UB doesn't really slow the press. We do some UB/DC screens on 300+ meshes and thats where we would use a double. No bother there. True enough most of the older M&R presses exhibit deflection that can be unacceptable at times. Originally they had a 4 point leveling system which was stronger but; largely due to incorrect re-leveling procedures, welds were being broken. Thus the change to the 3 point system. Always wondered why the the 2 points weren't towards the front instead of the rear.
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not sure if Alan's comments are directed at the ROQ presses, but for anybody wanting to know, I am aware of one individual's press that is having to reduce the speed substantially to get the ink coverage in one stroke. Not sure if that has been fixed by now or not, but it seems that one press is causing everybody to lump the rest with it.
So, for the record, we regularly print at close to 1,000 pcs per hour (speed) with white ink and are not having any clearing issues (on both the ECO and YOU). This is with rather large open areas. I've seen Danny do the same with great results. The pressures required for those results are similar to our MHM which has a four cylinder design. We are unable to do it at 15-20 PSI like Alan and 25 PSI is a stretch. For the most part when running at higher speeds we are above 40PSI. Joe Clarke was here few weeks ago and we set up a 9-zone test he has. I think we did OK before any tweaking, but after some adjustments, he said that was as good as he has ever seen (I think he said he has seen only one that was better).
I am not aware of any presses that can't clear white ink (good white ink , like Joe's) with one stroke, but I've only worked with MHM and ROQ so far.
pierre
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After Pierre's post I feel like I should clarify, the higher the mesh count, the greater the discrepancy in pressure needed and stroke distance before pallet deflection becomes a non issue.
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We single stroke all day every day here on our Roq. It is 100% FALSE that you must double stroke on a roq..... If anyone wants to see go to facebook and join the group " The Screen Printing Life" as I just posted a video of us single stroking. If you cant single stroke on ANY press then your doing something wrong pre press, bottom line. We can single stroke on any press out there, I promise that.
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I suck at uploading to YouTube and taking video but here's a couple raw video from today at my shop. If you notice how dirty the machines are it relates to how busy we are. The last month I hit record totals and if I had to double stroke this would not happen. I invite anyone to my shop or other roq shops I know are running as fast or faster all day then most out there. Total bs for anyone without solid experience to make these claims. Also a video from another shop before the new turbo flashes. These guys print faster then most every shop I've seen always around 1000+ per hr on huge prints. These roq machines and the new ones coming out are even faster.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PVzYvVviLho&app=m&persist_app=1 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PVzYvVviLho&app=m&persist_app=1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_l-2WNkx1q4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_l-2WNkx1q4)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQkLs1-pROM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQkLs1-pROM)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=48FkcS-AhYA (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=48FkcS-AhYA)
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Danny on the one video do i see you are single stroke the white underbase and a highlight white. Not sure i saw that correct.
Shane
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Danny on the one video do i see you are single stroke the white underbase and a highlight white. Not sure i saw that correct.
Shane
All those videos are single stroke for all underbases and colors...
Again not sure how the roq print head can be claimed as weak. If you want choppers all you gotta do is ask lol
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Danny on the one video do i see you are single stroke the white underbase and a highlight white. Not sure i saw that correct.
Shane
All those videos are single stroke for all underbases and colors...
Again not sure how the roq print head can be claimed as weak. If you want choppers all you gotta do is ask lol
Did it have a highlight white also?
Thx,
Shane
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
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Danny on the one video do i see you are single stroke the white underbase and a highlight white. Not sure i saw that correct.
Shane
All those videos are single stroke for all underbases and colors...
Again not sure how the roq print head can be claimed as weak. If you want choppers all you gotta do is ask lol
Did it have a highlight white also?
Thx,
Shane
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
Pretty much every job we do here that has white appearing in the design gets 2 white screens which usually single stroke on both unless we are running high mesh like 280+ which we might double stroke then.
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Thanks! By the way what mesh was those 156S or?
Thanks again,
Shane
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We use a lot of 150/48 for bases and 225/40 for colors. 150/225/280 covers 90% of what we use
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Just regular mesh or S-mesh. if you are ever in grand junction look me up.
Thanks,
Shane
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
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We ran this one last week. One stroke on everything. I will admit that we don't often make this happen. It's something we are still trying to dial in but we are getting there.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BZUCcXWntZP/?taken-by=40millimeter (https://www.instagram.com/p/BZUCcXWntZP/?taken-by=40millimeter)
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I'm not understanding the debate really. I clear the white screen with one stroke 99% of the time here and we have a Press that cannot be named. Sometimes on weird fabrics like tri blends we may have to hit it twice to clear but thats about the only times unless there is seams or something. Even on our old Javelin I could get a cleared white screen most of the time if the ink was warm and stirred up. To be honest I have a harder time getting a good clean stroke with Blacks than I do with white.
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My original post was not meant to be accusatory toward any brand or type of press. This is the type of conversation that I was hoping for with honest feedback, which I know not everyone will give. I know there is no such thing as a perfect press, on different jobs you wish it had this or that... But I will take all the info I get here and adjust my ongoing research.
I thought I had read in a thread a while ago that there were a few people that were saying they had to double stroke almost all of their underbases on a Roq press. I don't know how any of those people operate their shop of the specifics of the mesh, emulsion, etc, so it is entirely possible that they do not have those aspects dialed in correctly or maybe I just read it incorrectly.
I really appreciate all the feedback from all of the printers out there doing this all day everyday, you guys/girls know how it really goes down. I'm not the type of person that will make any major purchase solely based on a sales pitch(nobody should), so again, all of this info is greatly appreciated.
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not sure if Alan's comments are directed at the ROQ presses, but for anybody wanting to know, I am aware of one individual's press that is having to reduce the speed substantially to get the ink coverage in one stroke. Not sure if that has been fixed by now or not, but it seems that one press is causing everybody to lump the rest with it.
So, for the record, we regularly print at close to 1,000 pcs per hour (speed) with white ink and are not having any clearing issues (on both the ECO and YOU). This is with rather large open areas. I've seen Danny do the same with great results. The pressures required for those results are similar to our MHM which has a four cylinder design. We are unable to do it at 15-20 PSI like Alan and 25 PSI is a stretch. For the most part when running at higher speeds we are above 40PSI. Joe Clarke was here few weeks ago and we set up a 9-zone test he has. I think we did OK before any tweaking, but after some adjustments, he said that was as good as he has ever seen (I think he said he has seen only one that was better).
I am not aware of any presses that can't clear white ink (good white ink , like Joe's) with one stroke, but I've only worked with MHM and ROQ so far.
pierre
We clear Joe's Synergy NexgGen Cotton white 1 stroke all day long every day, high speed strokes, mesh counts ranging from 130 S to 225 S. Even some old still hanging around 125 T mesh. The choppers on the GT3 are just strong. Now, put those same screens on my old DB, stroke has to slow down, or add way more pressure. The strength of the choppers between the two models does make a huge difference there. But, there are tons of videos I've posted of single passe total clearing of the screens, usually running about 20-25 psi on our GT3 with un-modified Nexgen cotton white, even the poly. Not press manufacturing debating here, just stating our experience with our presses, screens, and Joe Clarke's awesome ink. I know more than a few guys with a different brand having issues here and it boils down to a design in a print head. Not that it's a bad thing, I think there are just some adjustments that have to made differently in each given machine/brand ect, to pull off the same method in actual production.
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I keep hearing about "multiple people with issues" only from other manf sales reps OR on this forum. I'd love for the people to come on here and air this out so there's no more confusion. We all know Sharples and Gilmartin have not been happy with their machines but it needs to be said they have the very first gen machines that were sent to USA. Who else is having issues besides those two guys?
Comparing the situation to an auto manf you can easily look at the history of those companies and see they have all had "issues".... Has chrysler always made a good engine? Probably not becase why would they evolve from a flat head to a wedge then to a hemi, etc...... It's a constant progression of innovation.
I have extended invites to Joe Clarke and anyone else who would want to come to my shop and do several days of testing on the roq machines. We have no issues here at all but I am open to having someone show me how the print head is weak as that will give me the info to have roq make changes. Personally I feel the print head design is superior but of course that is debatable.
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All other variables being identical, our Eco not only clears spot color plasti in one stroke but it deposits more ink than the autos with rubber on the platens and four chopper systems. I was surprised to hear my printers telling me they are putting simple spot color jobs on the Eco that our other auto would normally handle because the opacity was much better and easier to achieve on the Eco.
Our meshes are similar to what Danny listed, we use slightly different blades here but our strokes look almost identical from the video clip I watched.
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I wonder how much the honeycomb boards impact what both of you are seeing, as far as ink opacity in one stroke.
Pierre is the only one here I remember having run a MHM with similar platens. Is there any difference between the MHM and ROQ for ink laydown?
Both Pierre and Chris run very similarly, so I am interested.... That coupled with almost zero platen/arm deflection....
All I know for certain is the top of my prints need heavier pressure to fully clear the screen than the bottom of the same print. 14 color Sportman EXG. Mesh counts used 150/48 - 180/48 - 225/40 - 270/34 26-28 newton tension.
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We have zero issues with pressure/clearing on either our You or Eco. Just recently we ran 6,300 impressions on our Eco on Red Tee's with base white and top white. Also we are just running legacy white which is definitely not a top of the line creamy white. I think we can all agree that there are so many variables that goes into prepress that you can't knock the machines print head for not clearing ink, especially when you're talking about presses in this price range. Our first auto was a 1994 Javelin which sucked at the time, but boy did we learn about variables and printing in general from that thing.
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We only run plastisol on our 2 ROQ presses with no issues at all. In fact we just purchased a 3rd :)
If anyone is on the East Coast and likes to check ours out as well feel free to drop me a line.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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We only run plastisol on our 2 ROQ presses with no issues at all. In fact we just purchased a 3rd :)
If anyone is on the East Coast and likes to check ours out as well feel free to drop me a line.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Where on the East Coast any where near CT?
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I wonder how much the honeycomb boards impact what both of you are seeing, as far as ink opacity in one stroke.
Pierre is the only one here I remember having run a MHM with similar platens. Is there any difference between the MHM and ROQ for ink laydown?
Both Pierre and Chris run very similarly, so I am interested.... That coupled with almost zero platen/arm deflection....
All I know for certain is the top of my prints need heavier pressure to fully clear the screen than the bottom of the same print. 14 color Sportman EXG. Mesh counts used 150/48 - 180/48 - 225/40 - 270/34 26-28 newton tension.
Personally, I think the difference between rubber and no rubber is bigger than anything else. Unfortunately, I have no experience to back that up other than my manual press.
As far as the difference between the MHM and ROQ, I am not on the press enough to be able to tell.
pierre
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We only run plastisol on our 2 ROQ presses with no issues at all. In fact we just purchased a 3rd :)
If anyone is on the East Coast and likes to check ours out as well feel free to drop me a line.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Where on the East Coast any where near CT?
Yes right across the sound on Long Island.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I wonder how much the honeycomb boards impact what both of you are seeing, as far as ink opacity in one stroke.
Pierre is the only one here I remember having run a MHM with similar platens. Is there any difference between the MHM and ROQ for ink laydown?
Both Pierre and Chris run very similarly, so I am interested.... That coupled with almost zero platen/arm deflection....
All I know for certain is the top of my prints need heavier pressure to fully clear the screen than the bottom of the same print. 14 color Sportman EXG. Mesh counts used 150/48 - 180/48 - 225/40 - 270/34 26-28 newton tension.
Personally, I think the difference between rubber and no rubber is bigger than anything else. Unfortunately, I have no experience to back that up other than my manual press.
As far as the difference between the MHM and ROQ, I am not on the press enough to be able to tell.
pierre
When we went from our m&r to roq we saw approx 8-10% difference in dot gain between rubber and no rubber... Obviously other variables but it was a pretty big difference
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We only run plastisol on our 2 ROQ presses with no issues at all. In fact we just purchased a 3rd :)
If anyone is on the East Coast and likes to check ours out as well feel free to drop me a line.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Good to know. Wasn't sure if any Roq's were in our area yet.
Where on the East Coast any where near CT?
Yes right across the sound on Long Island.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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We only run plastisol on our 2 ROQ presses with no issues at all. In fact we just purchased a 3rd :)
If anyone is on the East Coast and likes to check ours out as well feel free to drop me a line.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Good to know. Wasn't sure if any Roq's were in our area yet.
Where on the East Coast any where near CT?
Yes right across the sound on Long Island.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes very close right on Long Island.
If you have any questions or need anything reach out.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I wonder how much the honeycomb boards impact what both of you are seeing, as far as ink opacity in one stroke.
Pierre is the only one here I remember having run a MHM with similar platens. Is there any difference between the MHM and ROQ for ink laydown?
Both Pierre and Chris run very similarly, so I am interested.... That coupled with almost zero platen/arm deflection....
All I know for certain is the top of my prints need heavier pressure to fully clear the screen than the bottom of the same print. 14 color Sportman EXG. Mesh counts used 150/48 - 180/48 - 225/40 - 270/34 26-28 newton tension.
Personally, I think the difference between rubber and no rubber is bigger than anything else. Unfortunately, I have no experience to back that up other than my manual press.
As far as the difference between the MHM and ROQ, I am not on the press enough to be able to tell.
pierre
When we went from our m&r to roq we saw approx 8-10% difference in dot gain between rubber and no rubber... Obviously other variables but it was a pretty big difference
May I ask, did you switch to rubber platens or away from them? And then following that, did you see an increase or decrease in dot gain? We've never used rubber platens. Not real sure their purpose.
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I wonder how much the honeycomb boards impact what both of you are seeing, as far as ink opacity in one stroke.
Pierre is the only one here I remember having run a MHM with similar platens. Is there any difference between the MHM and ROQ for ink laydown?
Both Pierre and Chris run very similarly, so I am interested.... That coupled with almost zero platen/arm deflection....
All I know for certain is the top of my prints need heavier pressure to fully clear the screen than the bottom of the same print. 14 color Sportman EXG. Mesh counts used 150/48 - 180/48 - 225/40 - 270/34 26-28 newton tension.
Personally, I think the difference between rubber and no rubber is bigger than anything else. Unfortunately, I have no experience to back that up other than my manual press.
As far as the difference between the MHM and ROQ, I am not on the press enough to be able to tell.
pierre
When we went from our m&r to roq we saw approx 8-10% difference in dot gain between rubber and no rubber... Obviously other variables but it was a pretty big difference
May I ask, did you switch to rubber platens or away from them? And then following that, did you see an increase or decrease in dot gain? We've never used rubber platens. Not real sure their purpose.
We went from rubber top to no rubber top(honeycomb aluminum)...... We saw less dot gain on the aluminum pallets vs the rubber top pallets. I know roq will make both rubber top and aluminum top depending on the request.