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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: mimosatexas on February 01, 2018, 04:00:46 PM
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Like the title says, looking to get some feedback on how someone would equip a shop space that does have 200 amps of electrical and does have natural gas, but does not have 3 phase. The space also does not have an overhead door, so everything would have to fit through a double door or roughly 6" wide.
Specifically looking for info regarding compressor and press combinations (including flash options), and dryer suggestions. Budget is a big concern, space is a bit of one, but would love to have ideas on a setup that will last through substantial growth vs just being a stop-gap of sorts.
From talking to a few shops and looking around on the forums, its looking like the Workhorse Sabre is a good option as the compressor requirements are low and for what you get it's pretty cheap (A/C heads), plus the flashbacks are single phase and lower amperage that traditional quartz flashes (though I know they are slow). As much as I would love to go M&R, from what I've read, presses like the sportsman may start pushing the electrical requirements a bit and without 3 phase for faster flashes the benefits of the faster press wouldnt really be taken advantage of most of the time. I'm also just not that familiar with the ROQ offerings.
It seems like the only real dryer options would be the Interchange MD-8 or Mini Sprint.
Any thoughts?
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How many presses do you need in there?
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Just 1 auto, but would also have/need 2 flashes, compressor, dryer, the 5k MH, couple clamshells, etc.
I know there are lots of ways to make it work, but a lot of them seem far from an optimal use of funds. Want to steer clear of the Volts, tiny diamondbacks, workhorse cutlass/freedom, etc.
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sent you a DM with my phone #. i run the machines you are considering. happy to chat about it with you
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Just 1 auto, but would also have/need 2 flashes, compressor, dryer, the 5k MH, couple clamshells, etc.
I know there are lots of ways to make it work, but a lot of them seem far from an optimal use of funds. Want to steer clear of the Volts, tiny diamondbacks, workhorse cutlass/freedom, etc.
Any reason you're not considering a Volt? That would eliminate a need for Compressor and Chiller and save about 65+ Amps. One downside is having to re-learn flood bar and squeegee pressure versus just dialing in PSi. I had (and was happy to) to go with a Volt as I was limited to 100A, 1-phase. I run 8/7 Volt M, 1 Rapid Wave Flash, and Vastex Econored II. I can't run things full bore but my space gets me by right now. Most all their presses/equipment come 3 or 1 phase. My guess is comparable model with flashes would be cheaper than the Sabre with Compressor/Chiller.
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Im sure the volt works for some people and makes them money, but Anatol has a reputation I would like to avoid, and the production numbers and overall capabilities of the machine just dont compare to other options which aren't too much more costly. Budget is a big factor, but so is not having to upgrade and switch machine brands/types in the near future if growth stays steady. From what I have read the Saber is slower than the m&r's, but it seems to be a tier above the presses I listed. No offense of course, just what I have read.
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Is getting 3-phase not an option?
If it is, you may want to see what the cost is, as you could recoup the install of it relatively quickly running at 3ph versus 1-phase with that equipment load, plus have plenty more room to grow on the 200-amp panel.
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I wish it was an option, but it just isnt at the moment. Not to get into too many details, but the space itself is sort of temporary, while the idea of this thread is to get equipment which fits into the limitations of the temporary space without being also being temporary or a poor value when a better space is in the cards. Don't want to buy stuff now only to have to upgrade it all in a year or so when there is the opportunity to get a setup which is capable of handling growth in the longer term.
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I'm on 100 amps and everything is single phase right now. 3 phase is in the building but the electrician said it needs a lot of work for it to be functional, so I opted to go single phase.
I run a 7.5hp compressor, chiller, workhorse freedom, flashback, ranar curestar 6000 dryer. I have manual equipment also, but it's not usually running at the same time as the auto. I think 200 amps on single phase will do fine. If you end up getting a gas dryer I think you'll be more than okay. Even if you run a small/midsize electric dryer you should be okay.
Also, not to stir the pot, but the Sabre price quotes I got were way better than the Volt quotes. Especially given that the Sabre has a 20" print length compared to the 16" length on the Volt I was quoted at. I don't want to come off bias, as I've never run either of these presses, but to me the Sabre is probably the most press for the money. If I could fit one in my shop, I probably would, but I don't think it's in the cards.
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Is anyone running the quartz flashes from M&R (Red Chili) on single phase vs 3 phase? Obviously the electric costs more due to the higher draw, but any other downsides?
For the Sabre, are there comparable flashes available if the speed of the flashbacks becomes a bottleneck?
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We were a similar setup as this on 200 amp service - when i added the auto (javelin) with 2 flashbacks we upgraded to 400 amp service- all still single phase
we run
Javelin- 2 flashbacks- with Speedair 7.5 hp/ compressor and chiller
Vastex 54" electric dryer
10/10 manual press with vastes 18x24 flash
central heat/air
Amergraph 150 exposure
Embroidery machines (4 head/ 2 head/ single head)
Stahls Dual Air Fusion Press
Hotronix 16x20 Heat Press
Roland vp-540
we dont have any power issues at allo- most expensive bill I evey got was $600/ month is usually around $350/ mo-- our entire building is 2800 sq ft.
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Is anyone running the quartz flashes from M&R (Red Chili) on single phase vs 3 phase? Obviously the electric costs more due to the higher draw, but any other downsides?
For the Sabre, are there comparable flashes available if the speed of the flashbacks becomes a bottleneck?
Does single phase really consume more electricity, I would think if a unit took 60 amps on a single leg then it would consume 20 amps each for 3 legs ??
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Does single phase really consume more electricity, I would think if a unit took 60 amps on a single leg then it would consume 20 amps each for 3 legs ??
Correct, a watt is a watt, doesn't matter how you get there. 3 phase motors are more efficient though.
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Is anyone running the quartz flashes from M&R (Red Chili) on single phase vs 3 phase? Obviously the electric costs more due to the higher draw, but any other downsides?
For the Sabre, are there comparable flashes available if the speed of the flashbacks becomes a bottleneck?
Yeah workhorse has standard quartz flashes if you don't want to run the flashbacks which should help you print a little faster. If you use the flashback as a stand alone flash and flash in table up mode, it's still surprisingly quick.
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I run a 10/12 Trident AC/servo, 1 quartz flash, 1 IR flash, 5hp compressor, old precision gas dryer converted with single phase motor on 200amp service.
The quartz flash is the biggest hog. Can't remember what size breaker it has, think it's 65-70amp. It's not an Anatol flash, think it's flash technologies out of CA, so no direct comparison available.
I WANT another quartz flash but I do worry about that rare event when two quartz flashes light off at the exact moment that the compressor kicks on. It would probably be fine as it's not long enough of an initial load to blow the main breaker. But just a thought/worry.
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We run on a bit less than 200a 3ph here, 2 autos, 3 quartz flashes, led expo and a 15hp comp.
I would attack the big, sudden electrical draw pieces first and try to get more a reliable load going as the norm. So that's comp and flashes.
A typical screw drive comp is going to punch your panel everytime it kicks on. Do they make "soft start" or similar motor features in compressors? Our comp is 3p on a 60a circuit and it rattles the wires in the damn conduit every time it kicks on. Amp draw will drop way down after start though. Finding a 1ph compressor with the soft start feature, if that exists, sounds problematic.
Next, minimize the comp air needs so that compressor motor doesn't have to be too big:
For M&R or workhorse that would be servo/ac only, servo lift would be very smart if you can get it spec'd.
For s.roque that's the You only since it has central elevation- one cyl to lift/lower all heads. The Eco has cyls on all heads and uses much more air. I imagine s.roques use less chopper air since it's one cyl v. four so might be worth comparing.
Might need to go IR for the flashes for the budget. If you had a compressor motor that wasn't hitting your service hard at start you might be able to get away with quartzes but I don't even want to know what the amperage is for a full sized, 1ph quartz unit. Look into the smart flashes if going quartz. Way more options there to ease up on the sudden draw they have. Ours kind of work their way up to full power, turn off after holding the set point and work their way down.
I feel like M&R has to have a sprint that fits through that opening. 1ph used gas dryers seem to be hard to find though.
LED expo. Inferior to MH but dramatically lower amp draw.
If the budget isn't prohibitive I think you could get this done with a gas dryer, smart quartz flashes, the right compressor and the right press and have electrical overhead to spare and make it scalable for later on.
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Were pushing the limit on 100 amps every day, one thing to consider is there are time delay fuses in the mains in the building so a compressor kicking on wont trip a breaker if its for a second or so.
For us when the neighbours AC unit kicks on at the random time our compressor does, we break a 200 amp fuse, and we just pop a new one in. We learned to have a few on hand ;) Happens once or twice a year.
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Like the title says, looking to get some feedback on how someone would equip a shop space that does have 200 amps of electrical and does have natural gas, but does not have 3 phase. The space also does not have an overhead door, so everything would have to fit through a double door or roughly 6" wide.
Any thoughts?
Don't forget, if your building cooling/heating source is powered by the 200A electrical service you've got another limitation to factor in.
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Thanks for all the responses! Much appreciated.
The single phase quartz flashes all seem to pull 50-75, so that's 75% of the buildings capacity for 2 without even factoring in press, dryer, lights, A/C, random assorted equipment, and would make burning screens and printing at the same time impossible most of the time, unless we go LED like Zoo mentioned. I would prefer to avoid LED still at the moment, the 5k Olec is just such a great unit...
Does anyone have any ideas on max production speeds with the flashbacks or stationary infrared flashes (which all seem to max at closer to 20amps vs 50-75?). Anything is an upgrade over our current numbers, but I hate the idea of dropping a bunch of money on flashes that are the bottleneck over slightly more expensive options that we can try to "work around" with our 200amp capacity.
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keep in mind that even though they are over the rated 200a capacity a quartz flash only turns on for a few seconds at a time so the draw is not always 70a.
we run all of these at the same time off a 200a 3ph panel without tripping breakers. but not everything is running all at once.
red chili 50a, reno flash 20a, dryer 50 3ph, compressor 50 or 60a, dryer 50a 1ph, 2x flashbacks at 20a ea, sportsman ?a, manual flash 15-20a, 2 hotronix heat presses 20a each, tons of computers and lights, pressure washer 20a each, msp3140 20a
the IR in head flashes work ok, we use one in our sportsman for flashing the base and run 600 pcs an hr easily.
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I would get the specs for the equipment that you want then get an electrician to evaluate your current setup and figure in the new. 200 amps is a lot of juice. Even single phase. Our house is all electric and has a 200 amp main. When we built the shop we ran power off the same meter base and main. We can run the house as normal, clothes dryer running, lights, ac or heat and the usual plus the shop which has it's own ac/heat, quartz flash, EconoRed 1 54", 2 embroidery machines, lights, computers and whatever and have never popped the breaker. We were entertaining the idea of getting an auto and compressor and spoke with an electrician. He said he could come over and check the amp draw while we were doing business as usual too see how much we are actually using and I'd probably be surprised that it's not as much as I think. There are a lot of factors to figure into the whole equation.
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I'm going to say that an IR unit once warmed up will flash really dang fast. I would personally go that route to save some amps for something else. Or go one quartz and one IR.
When we ran the old gauntlet I had a shuttle flash setup and dang if that thing didn't keep up with just about whatever print speed I was running at. I miss the ease of that thing.
I talked to an electrician up the street and he was saying a 3ph conversion can start at $25k.
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Slo blow fuses are a must in a situation like that, good looking out Andrew.
A service upgrade to 3ph is going to vary in cost, depends on a lot of factors. Around here no landowners want to contribute to upgrading their services but your area might be different, worth asking. If you keep the amperage on the service at 200 you may be able to use existing hardware to some degree, when you get to higher services the CT cans and everything get expensive fast. Also worth getting a cost on it and rolling it up into rent just to see if it is in fact worth the upgrade over the term of the lease.
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When we ran the old gauntlet I had a shuttle flash setup and dang if that thing didn't keep up with just about whatever print speed I was running at. I miss the ease of that thing.
When I ran a Gauntlet with shuttle flashes, with a loader & a puller, our dwell time was determined by our flash time - which was usually about 4 seconds. Back that out, and you're at a theoretical speed of 900 pcs/hr. We didn't really do that, but we were probably in the 700s. I worked solo with a dwell time of 7 seconds (about 500/hr), so flash time was rarely a factor.